fun story:
I just wanted to share a good story form a recent demo. I was working at the CT renn faire , the weather (cold and rainy) this year was not the best and I was somewhat out of sorts, I had just finished a makeing a leaf key chain and turned to the croud and asked if any one whaned to buy it, no takers .... then this little boy tells me when he was at the anouther blacksmiths shop the blacksmith, had given his item away to the kid who could draw the best hershys kiss. this kind of sounded fun so I tell the kids I will give the leaf to the kid who tells me the best joke. All these hands shoot up and I hear a few realy bad jokes, then this little girl gets my attenion and her family try's to quite her telling me her jokes are allways so bad. so I crouch down to her level and tell her I whant to hear her joke. With a little encorgement she tells me this joke, "what is the butchers favorit dinosor, the steak-o-soris" I thought is was kind of funny and I felt a bit bad for the little girl so I gave her the leaf. Well I must have made that little girls day, for the rest of the day other vendors and workers at the faire keep stoping by and telling me about this little girl that had corned then to tell them all about the " cool blacksmith that was so nice to her, and thought her joke was the best"
Hearing that really made my day and to be honest I needed that. All of the realy dumb statments and questions you allways get when demoing were starting to get to me and I was starting to wonder why the heck I keep doing demos, now I have a good story to remind my self why.
MP
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- MPMetal
- Saturday, 10/31/09 10:00:00 EST
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MP, Great story.
There is always the desire to give something to the kids but the knowledge that if you start it can be never ending. This is a great way to reduce the problem. . .
I almost always end up giving something away to some kid that really takes interest in what I am doing. I've had kids that were too young to leave their parents and kept dragging one or both back to see the blacksmith. I usually find a way to make something for them (free) but it is always a risk. Does the kid have 8 brothers and sisters? Is there another kid hiding where I can't see that it going to spread the word about free stuff? Crowd conditions change rapidly.
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- guru
- Saturday, 10/31/09 11:02:41 EST
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It is certinly a trick I will use again. kids love free stuff, if ou make them work for it a bit it really thins the load...
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- MPMetal
- Saturday, 10/31/09 13:54:27 EST
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The only thing I miss about not doing demos is the kids that are really hooked.
The best teaching experiences have been 8 year olds. Kids old enough to use a hammer but too young to have taken seriously the admonitions of adults that they are not old enough or big enough to do something. Both were tough little boys that by shear will were going to make that iron into what they wanted, skills or no. Of course, this is the same thing that makes an adult a good smith.
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- guru
- Saturday, 10/31/09 17:17:51 EST
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guru, that kind of stubbornness and unwillingness to give up has helped alot of people. plus it is kind of cute to watch a little kid forge away and 'help' someone out. just like this little fellow who walks by my house alot who seems desperate to watch me but too shy to come closer. i do miss helping out at museams but all of my darn classes get in the way, and i do love how cute the little 8yr olds get so exited when i turned a rr spike into a hook. the face of happiness was wonderful (and some girls my age thought that it was cool too ;)
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bigfoot
- Sunday, 11/01/09 10:04:10 EST
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question:
I have a quick question. I was wondering what would be a good metal to make punches with I need some square punches for 3/8 square
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- Kevin
- Sunday, 11/01/09 13:54:17 EST
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Punches:
Kevin it depends on what you are punching and your manufacturing process. If you need precision punches and dies to fit a hand punch or punch press then A2 is a good choice. It is a stable air hardening steel that is sold in the annealed condition so that it can be machined then hardened and used as-is without grinding. I use stainless foil to protect the A2 when hardening.
If you are making hand punches for light duty work (punching less than the diameter or width of the punch) then W1, 1095 or 5160 all make suitable punches for hot or cold work. But if the hole is deep then an alloy steel that is air hardening is recommended. In this case H13, S7 or any one of many air hardening tool steels would be good.
Generally the "best" steel is what you have on hand and are used to working with. S7 is a popular tool steel among smiths because of its superior properties, thus a wide range of uses, and simple heat treatment. W1 is very popular in all shops due to being one of the most available and least expensive tool steels. 1095 was a popular steel because it is a plain carbon steel that is similar to the old "shear" steel used by blacksmiths in an earlier time.
Decisions, decisions. . .
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- guru
- Sunday, 11/01/09 15:21:42 EST
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reply:
I am just looking for some punches because I do 1860's style smithing every thing is hand done I would be making meat spits, trammels and the such thank you
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Kevin
- Sunday, 11/01/09 15:52:54 EST
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There are a great many steels but the advantage of S7 is that it is a "shock resistant" steel and works almost as well at high temperature as hot work steel like H13.
What many smiths do is purchase some tool steel, learn to use it, and use it exclusively once they learn to work with it.
As for reenacting, one steel looks like another. . Using a good hot work steel makes your job easier and you look better to your audience.
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- guru
- Sunday, 11/01/09 16:38:30 EST
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I like H-13. It's relatively tough for its hardness under use and not too prone to cracking from hardening. The last thing i made with it was from 1/2" round a forged boring bar for cutting internal acme threads. Space becomes quite an issue for smaller internal threads and these integral cutter/boring bars are a really handy way to get it done.
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- Tyler Murch
- Monday, 11/02/09 21:11:10 EST
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Tyler, THAT is practicing machine work the way they did in the late 19th century!.
Which reminds me that I need to get a screw and drawing to you. . .
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- guru
- Tuesday, 11/03/09 16:37:36 EST
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Grasshopper Treadle Hammer Plans, 2009 edition:
I am now selling the complete, updated Grasshopper Treadle Hammer plans over ebay. These plans are now available internationally, with payment through PayPal. Further information will be found on theForge and on alt.crafts.blacksmithing
Grasshopper Hammer on ebay
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Bruce Freeman
- Wednesday, 11/04/09 17:50:45 EST
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Colouring paste:
I received a leaflet about some pastes that you can get to add colour to finished steel- gilding etc. I can't find the leaflet and don't remember how I got it! Does anybody have any ideas what it might have been. US made product and I think fairly new.
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- philip in china
- Wednesday, 11/04/09 18:07:45 EST
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Phillip,
That sounds like Gilders' Paste. blacksmithsupply.com sells it, and probably a bunch of other places do as well.
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Mike BR
- Wednesday, 11/04/09 19:06:53 EST
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Baroque Art Gilders Paste:
These can be used directly, mixed with other finishes, glazed by hand, sprayed (if mixed in a carrier).
Gilders Paste
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- guru
- Wednesday, 11/04/09 20:43:14 EST
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Color:
I've been pushing color here a long time. Even when you want a "natural" or rust finish, it should be paint for durability and stability. A rust finish will continue to rust, a "natural" finish will also rust. . . While paint doesn't last forever, a good paint job may last 20 years outdoors. Longer indoors.
There are lots of great finishing techniques. Spray shading, sputtered finishes, transparent glazes (like candy apple), metallics, texture finishes, hand rubbed. .
Think about all the deep metalics with clear coat finishes on automobiles and then imaging them on ironwork. . Can't imagine it? Try it. I know some folks that had the powder coater run a bunch of their sample work with metalics and it was very interesting.
Look at the two samples in the link above. Those are IRONWORK. The one looks like antique bronze but is all iron.
I recently had a discussion with an old friend about painting ironwork. I have been giving him fits for years about the poor quality "just throw some black paint on it" finishes he had been applying. He had finally come around to the fact that scale is bad and paint must last. He didn't say but he had recently been out rephotographing a lot of his old work that he did not have good photographs of. . . I know what he found without my seeing it. The work was either sprinkled with blisters where rust was forming under loose paint OR it had been poorly cleaned and re-painted over flaking paint.
Now he is on the clean and paint bandwagon and admits it is HALF the job and more than half the expense. Just producing good ironwork is not enough. You MUST finish it so that you are not called upon to refinish it during your career.
Its all part of producing a QUALITY product. It doesn't matter how much forge welding, traditional joinery and hand forging you do if it is not properly finished as well. The sandblasting, priming, painting (not just black) and doing so to the best standards is just as important as all the rest.
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- guru
- Wednesday, 11/04/09 22:40:38 EST
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grant:
What "link above"?
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- grant
- Thursday, 11/05/09 13:15:46 EST
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The Gilders Paste link in the precious post.
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- guru
- Thursday, 11/05/09 16:04:42 EST
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"previous" post. . .
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- guru
- Thursday, 11/05/09 18:08:20 EST
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Before the country education budget became tight they would take all of the first graders on a FARM DAY field trip to some county farm. Last year they held it in the city park and asked me to demonstrate blacksmithing (along with other events). Frankly I was amazed at how intelligent their questions were for the most part. I also demonstrate each year for 4&5th graders. They just don't seem as interested.
Question: At the last Quad-State I purchased some handled punches. Heads are stamped WHALEBONE. Handles are marked Portage Tool Co USA. Anyone familar with WHALEBONE?
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Ken Scharabok
- Sunday, 11/08/09 06:52:04 EST
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KIds and Demos:
I always preferred the younger kids as they did not deem so jaded. However, it would depend on the social dynamics of the particular class with the older kids.
The last school demo I did most of the kids were curious and asked good questions. But ONE class had one snooty girl with the attitude that she was being greatly inconvenienced by being taken out of her regular class setting and taking part in this activity was beneath her, and she stated so, but perhaps not quite so succinctly. She was the driving force in the class and the rest followed. No questions, feigned boredom. . . I ALMOST sent them packing.
This was one class the same age group as others at the same school on the same day. I could tell what was going on and tried to address it. I could tell that several of the kids were bursting to ask a question but would not risk their "social standing".
Portage Tool seems familar - I'll look in my catalogs.
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- guru
- Sunday, 11/08/09 08:22:25 EST
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Hi Ken
The whalebone brand tools are excellent quality. I have and use some myself. They were a military contract tool made by the portage tool co. I have all the sheets of what they use to produce. They no longer make these tools.
Glad to hear you do demos for the school kids. Keep up the good work.
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Brande
- Sunday, 11/08/09 11:25:48 EST
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Yeah, Portage tool is no more. They were in Ohio, can't remember exactly where. The did everything on big 'ol Bradley Beam hammers. Made lotta nice little chisels and such. Hope those hammers found good homes.
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- grant
- Sunday, 11/08/09 21:12:59 EST
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Yeah, Portage tool is no more. They were in Ohio, can't remember exactly where. The did everything on big 'ol Bradley Beam hammers. Made lotta nice little chisels and such. Hope those hammers found good homes.
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- grant
- Sunday, 11/08/09 21:14:03 EST
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gilders paste:
This may be the kind of finish product I've been looking for. I hate the thought of putting any kind of "thick" paint on my finished pieces, after I have worked so hard to achieve a certain texture, just to have a paint fill most of it in.
I have heard people refer to a kind of dye coloring for metals but it is not an outdoor finish.
I have saved the link and will be checking this stuff out.
Thanks Guru.
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- merl
- Monday, 11/09/09 09:49:31 EST
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Finishes:
Generally you can apply zinc primer, sealing primer and a top finish coat of paint by spraying and still see every detail of a surface texture. It is thick brushing enamel that hides texture. However, this same paint can be thinned and sprayed or even applied as a wash coat and not hide texture.
I prefer lacquers because of how thin they go on and how well they replicate the surface. They also dry very fast. The only time they fill is when you use sanding primer and apply it very thick in several coats. Even then the texture is not hidden very much unless you sand between coats.
The gilders past can be used in thin glazes over bare metal like a stain but I do not recommend it. You should throughly clean prime and seal the piece prior to creating a hand rubbed finish. Note that if you have a heavy texture, a rubbed finish can enhance it by catching in the pits and low spots. So can some sprayed finishes.
The whole area of finishes is one that artist blacksmith really needs to spend some time practicing and experimenting with. There are some great effects that can be produced easily once you discover them. Others can be more difficult but may set your work apart and become your "signature".
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- guru
- Monday, 11/09/09 11:06:04 EST
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Workshop Construction Question:
I plan to start "Phase II" at Oakley Forge this late autumn and winter (and spring, and...). This is the collocated 12' X 12' wood shop for the lathe, woodworking tools, etc.
Construction will be very similar to the forge building, but the floor will be plywood over 2 X 12s hung from the 4 X 6 pressure treated sills, which will rest upon eight creosoted dock pilings sunk into the ground (corners and centers).
So, since this floor will actually be up off the ground, the question is: how high off the ground? I have enough dock pilings that I can cut them any length, so I can have the sills hug the ground, be 6" above the ground, or 1' or 18" or a crawl space with skirting... How high or how low; am I creating "groundhog heaven" or skunk havens, or do I need to get underneath from time-to-time to access or install? I do plan all of the electrical work to be ceiling and wall mounted, but what have I forgot, and will it need me to access the "undercroft?"
As always, your suggestions and experience are most welcome.
Oakley Forge
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Bruce Blackistone (Atli)
- Monday, 11/09/09 15:04:41 EST
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Woodwork Shop Floor:
Welll. . . . Many wood workers will tell you to always put an outlet in the middle of the shop floor for the table saw or bandsaw that you use to cut large boards such as sheets of plywood. This is usually near the exact center of the shop.
I know your blacksmith shop is on a slope. If the wood shop is next to it or butts against it then I would make the floors the same level if possible (adjoining door?). This may require some drain ditch at the uphill side of the building to direct rainwater away.
If it is built above ground enough to have a convienient crawl space and you are on a slope it is good to have a near level ramp bridge the gap from the uphill side to the a door. It is also good to have a raised door where you can back a truck up to it for loading and unloading. In a small shop this is pickup bed level and in a large shop it is loading dock level.
The pro wood working shops and even some hobby shops end up with dust/chip collection systems with a cyclone separator outside the shop. The best place to run the PVC or steel ducts is under the floor as this puts less clutter in the shop and the runs are down hill.
I'm a firm believer of there being maintenance access. Even under concrete floors if you have plumbing I would want a tunnel for access to clean outs, supply cutoffs. . .
Last. . While this sounds like a hazard many wood working shops have a floor level fireplace hearth where chips and dust can be swept directly into the fire.
The important thing about floor heights is protection from damp and insects. The tobacco barns in your neighborhood are bad examples because the tobacco helps make the building insect resistant. The old lumber was also naturally more insect resistant where the NEW soft pine lumber is like candy for bugs. Use salt treated where necessary and moisture barriers on the pilings.
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- guru
- Monday, 11/09/09 15:57:27 EST
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Atli, My suggestions are:
1)Use treated lumber for the joists.
2)Use treated plywood, if affordable since you have moisture year round.
3)Consider a moisture barrier for the underfloor.
4) Vent the underfloor crawl space well. Consider either wire mesh like rabbit wire, and bury the wire 18" into the ground. Or use stone like cinder blocks or creek rock to enclose and use lots of the temp sensative auto vents. If enclosed, lay 8 to 10 mil plastic on the earth under the shop.
5) the Guru has very good points about dust collection system and wiring to the center.
Enjoy.
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- ptree
- Monday, 11/09/09 19:02:55 EST
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Atli's shop:
If I remember right, a Foxfire Book say a termite will not crawl more than 18" from the ground...
Some of My outbuildings are at ground level at one end or corner. They were built in '72 & '79. Both are deteriating now, and it is a little dryer here than at Your place, Bruce.
Acess onder the floor is a good idea, but that is also good storage for things that can take some weather but don't warrant better storage space.
Critters like the under building space, they like it even better if there is only a little space.
I think a few steps or short ramp at the tight end and pickup bed hight at the other end would make the most workable building if on a slope.
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- Dave Boyer
- Monday, 11/09/09 21:09:45 EST
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finishes:
"The whole area of finishes is one that artist blacksmith really need to spend some time practicing and experimenting with"
I fully agree with you however, I have to admit that I am not yet to the point were I consider much beond descaling, lite sanding to bring out the highlites of a certain texture, and maybe a rubbed oil or wax finish, as a vital part of my work.
I suppose that is the differance between an aspiring artisin blacksmith and one that makes a living at it...
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- merl
- Monday, 11/09/09 22:04:22 EST
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Floor hight:
Guru and Dave Boyer both make good point about pick up truck hight floors and under building storage.
Consider that the unused space under the building may be the ideal place to dry down rough cut lumber and, I know I prefer a shop building that is higher off the ground. If you could walk up one or two steps at one end of the shop and walk into a pick up truck bed at the other I think you would be the envy of a great many people.
I have a good size slab of cement left over from a former grain dryer set up that I plan to use for a shop building one day soon.
It is set up so that I can drive up a 4" curb at one end with an 18" drop to the ground at the other. Not quite pick up hight but close enough for ramps if needed.
I wouldn't worry too much about critters getting under there. That's what rat bait and shot guns are for...
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- merl
- Monday, 11/09/09 22:26:40 EST
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peerless power hack:
i have a 5hp 3phase large peerless powerhack i would like to sell--- i have around $600 dollars in it-- so thats what i'm asking cash or trade...machine is in great shape no rust...built like a battleship please email me for more info if your interested...
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- peter
- Tuesday, 11/10/09 08:01:18 EST
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ok:
for some reason page didnt post my email link...my email is blacklionforge @aol.com....
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peter
- Tuesday, 11/10/09 08:02:35 EST
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Texture Highlights:
With an oil or wax finish they just rust in a short while creating brick red highlights. Clear lacquer is OK for interior use.
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- guru
- Tuesday, 11/10/09 08:44:17 EST
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I found all my portage tool co blacksmith and tinsmith catalogue tool lists. maybe I need to make a little booklet?
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- Brande
- Tuesday, 11/10/09 11:30:34 EST
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Air Hammer for sale:
I have a 75 pound professionally made airhammer for sale. It is in excellent shape. It has a 6" solid round anvil and a new set of radius dies. It has excellent control. If anyone is interested email me at firebug@mon-cre.net The price is 1900.00 you can't build it for that. They almost get that much for a treadle hammer.
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Firebug
- Tuesday, 11/10/09 16:26:52 EST
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Ken,
Portage tool was in the Akron area of Ohio. They closed down two years ago, apparently due the high cost of employee benifits/workers compensation etc. They ran at least 4 Bradley guided helve hammers in sizes 75-150 lbs. These machines were purchsed by Ian Willy of Missouri. Their inventory was bought by Jim Hollo who can give you more info on the company as he got to know the owner. Apparently years ago they a had a 300 lb Bradley, but at some point got rid of it. They still had the ram, anvil and a brand new beam for that hammer. I ended up with the beam and the ram and some of the hand tools.
Patrick
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- Patrick Nowak
- Wednesday, 11/11/09 11:22:06 EST
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Tool Manufacturing:
It is amazing how many well known tool manufacturers ran relatively small hammers to produce their entire line of tools up to and including sledge hammers. Famous Atha Tools ran a bunch of Bradleys and today Bruce Wallace produces tools by the truck load for a couple hardware companies using an ancient 150 pound Bradley. BigBLU produces hand hammers and various punches on their own air air hammers.
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- guru
- Thursday, 11/12/09 11:37:56 EST
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Tool Mfg.:
Yea, my 150# Fairbanks came out of the BO Pane chisel factory in Worcester, MA, and it was a mid-sized hammer there. They had a bunch of 35# Scrantons and 2 or 3 bigger (250#?) Beaudreys but that was about it. However, their grinders were at least to my eye pretty big.
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Judson Yaggy
- Thursday, 11/12/09 20:04:24 EST
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bailout:
I heard that President Obama is fixing to bail out us blacksmiths. Yeah, the program will be called CASH FOR CLINKERS!
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- JD RIX
- Thursday, 11/12/09 20:36:27 EST
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Mr. Nowak
How do I contact Jim Hollo or the former owner of portage tool co? Thanks
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- Brande
- Thursday, 11/12/09 22:46:14 EST
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DB Payne Superior Edge Tool Co.:
that is the name of the company that your hammer came from judson... and your hammer one was of the biggests in the shop--- the biggest was the beaudry-it was 2oo/250lb'er( there was only one beaudry in the shop/there was a 300lb carcass outside of it)...there was one 40lb scranton several 75 lb'ers and the 100 lb scranton that i ended up with( it was the scranton that was to the right of your fairbanks) there was another 3 or so scrantons that where dissassibled for storage(building was so very small)....as for the big belt grinder ive ended up with that....and your right its HUGE... from the looks of it most all of the tool work in that shop was not done free hand but with clapper dies(ive never seen more clappers in one place at one time) ------ anyway judson that fairbanks had the sweetest looking set of combo dies i have ever seen...looks like they had never been used... hows that hammer holding up for you?
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- pete
- Friday, 11/13/09 07:12:39 EST
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Brande: I believe Jim Hollo is the one selling the remaining stock of Portage at Quad-States (and perhaps other conferences). If you contact the Southern Ohio Forge and Anvil Ass'n, P.O. Box 24308, Huber Heights, OH 45424-0308 they may be able to provide his address. However, don't expect a quick response. You might also try an Internet search such as Switchboard.dom on the last name. Can't be all that many Hollos around.
Thank you for the information on WHALEBONE. I tried doing a Google search but couldn't find anything related to tools. I suspected there were two possibilities. Portage stamped their heads different than their handles or they bought the heads from a supplier.
JD RIX: That is a great joke.
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Ken Scharabok
- Saturday, 11/14/09 07:12:46 EST
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Brande:
Jim Hollo owns West Salem Industrial Services. His website can be found at
http://westsalemindustrialservices.com/
Good Luck
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- Dave Hammer
- Saturday, 11/14/09 10:34:54 EST
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Thank you, Ken & Dave
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- Brande
- Saturday, 11/14/09 14:43:03 EST
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Fairbanks hammer:
Pete- Email headed your way. The hammer runs great, it's all but mint condition, just a very slight wash to the drawing portion of the dies, and the flat portion of the dies are huge. The way the belts are set the flywheel on the jackshaft keeps spinning and the belt to the hammer slips so when you stomp it the mass of the jackshaft pulley kicks over the hammer very quickly, giving a very snappy blow. Between that and the built in brake I can get a single blow out of a 150# hammer, pretty cool.
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- Judson Yaggy
- Sunday, 11/15/09 08:09:24 EST
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fairbanks:
sweet judson sweet!! that was one heck of a hammer....glad to hear your using it everyday!! that sort machine is truely honored by that sorta use.....btw i think all the hammers in there where set up to run that way(but not the beaudry)
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- pete
- Sunday, 11/15/09 11:19:38 EST
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B.O.Paine shop:
I believe my Beaudry #7 came from that shop. It was set up with big flat dies notched to hold insert dies top and bottom. I got all the inserts as well as several sample sets of the tools product racks. These were mostly center and pin punches, star drills, freight hooks and crowbars.
The hammer is still in great shape and earning it's keep and then some in my shop. I put a new motor, belts, switch,rollers, bronze guides and big flat dies make it fully functional. The casting of the frame is a work of art. There is a barely 3/16'' gap where the hammer frame fits around the anvil block.
I'd like to hear more about the history of that shop and where all the other hammers and equipment ended up. I bought the Beaudry from Eric Zieg, who I believe bought the whole lot and parted it out.
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SGropp
- Monday, 11/16/09 23:02:21 EST
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American Society for Metals International:
Not an oxymorn. These days, it's American and international. The Los Alamos Chapter of ASM bought me an enchilida lunch and then came to Turley Forge for a couple of hours, Saturday. I entertained them with stories and some solid phase welds. I showed them some of the tools we use, and we even talked a little about design considerations. About 20 people showed up; a good time.
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Frank Turley
- Tuesday, 11/17/09 16:14:53 EST
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ASM Int.:
These are THE metals book publishing folks. If you need technical heat treating or alloy references they are THE source. Generally if you are purchasing more than one reference from them at any one time a membership comes out of the member's discount. As a member you get serious discounts on their books and membership in the local chapter. They have chapters all over the country.
Chapters vary a lot in character with the type businesses their members work in. If you have industrial engineering outfits they will lean that way but if you have a lot of R&D outfits or a big university they will lean toward research. But most are geeky types and as a blacksmith in the group you will be a curiosity to folks that never really WORKED metal.. the fact that you heat treat metal using a magnet and rainbow colors will seem like voodoo to them. But a great group to trade knowledge with and network with. They may need
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- guru
- Tuesday, 11/17/09 16:46:11 EST
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ASM:
They also have a very nice basic metalurgury home study program. I still have the metals manual and course from about 1981.
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ptree
- Tuesday, 11/17/09 18:00:05 EST
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we do a lot of ironwork in my shop, the painting has caused us many issues over the years. we tried powder coat... do not use this it will never get in to the steep angled corners and it will rust out .. we tried using vinalast over a phosphate primer. good protection, but ran into many problems with it 1the paint has a 1 year shelf life and I beleave most of the paint I was getting was over that. even with a good can it will never fully harden and in the sun will get soft enough to take fingerprints or get sticky, in the shop it would stick to the cardboard or packing foam we were using to protect it when whatins to install, we tried some of the 2 part epoxie based paints these worked well but were allmost imposable to touch up on site and did not do well with on site welds (the heat debonded the paint far back from the HAZ)
currently I am useing a industral waterborne enamel, over a matching primer. I have had some issues with it, but over all it seems to be working well. the good things about are (other than the protection) that it thins with water, is nontoxic, very low VOC, drys quick and hard, has very little smell and bushes well. I have had problems with the primer pealing if I do not give it enough drying time before top coating, and it was had some isues with welding.
the color availability is OK but not great and most are only available in gloss, I get around this by useing the gilders pastes then clear coating with a flat or satin clear...
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- MP
- Wednesday, 11/18/09 07:42:25 EST
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MP, I have been told by the paint engineers here in the louisville KY area that Epoxy is not a good choice for outdoors due to sun induced chalking. They reccomend an Alkyd enamel or acrylic enamel.
I use an acrylic enamel over a red oxide primer on new metal and have good results.
For rusty metal, I wire brush off the loose rust, and apply "Xtend" a Henkle Loctite product exactly per the can instructions, followed by a the red oxide primer and the acrylic enamel.
I get good results from that as well.
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ptree
- Wednesday, 11/18/09 09:39:55 EST
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I have no experience with water based paints for metal other than automobiles that hat to be scraped early in life due to fast areas of failed finish and refinishing issues short of stripping to bare metal and staring over again.
Volatile solvents are an environmental problem but solvent based paints are still the best in my opinion.
The problem with epoxies is that any version made to be easy to use is low strength and ages rapidly. I was at a nuclear plant where they were painting everything in sight with it after LOTS of preparation and were having failures all over in just a couple months. Since the paint contractor was still there he was screwed. . these things usually happen after the painters have left town. . .
On work with crevices, such as scroll work, folded leaves and such I go over the entire work with extra thin zinc primer and a brush and flow it into the crevices before spraying the rest. I will usually do this once, then flip the work upside down and do it again from the opposite side. It helps as well to scrub the primer into these places with a brush.
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- guru
- Wednesday, 11/18/09 11:57:13 EST
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Most "waterborn" paints still have a solvent portion. Pure water thinned paints tend to rust steel before drying. The DTM type paints use gylcols and other solvents besides water.
Looking at MSDS almost every day in my occupation leads to knowing what is in lots of stuff.
A common misunderstanding is that most aerosol cans are marked flammable due to solvents and so forth in the product being propelled from the can. Some are, but the real reason is that when HFC's were banned for propellant, propane, iso-butane and butane were substituted.
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ptree
- Wednesday, 11/18/09 12:23:06 EST
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Gilders paste:
MP please let us know about your experience with gilders paste. How do you use it, how good is it etc.
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- philip in china
- Wednesday, 11/18/09 17:31:15 EST
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paint:
the two part epoxy based paint we tried was designed for out door use ... I never got far enough in testing it to see if it would chalk in the sun... the welding problems and problems with touch ups ruled it out rather quickly (I never even tried it on a job.
both the primer and top coat I am using right now is a DTM water born acrylic enamel. I like that I can use water for clean up rather than a solvent 1st it is far cheaper 2nd the smell and danger from some (read most) solvents is more than I want to deal with. that vinalast cuts and cleans with Xilen that stuff is evil, it ate some of my air lines , would eat the seals in my spray gun every 2 weeks getting it on my skin was almost as bad as spraying with out a mask.(something I will not do) it would eat my gloves get on my hands and get me high for an hour or so... fun stuff.
on every thing but the most basic shapes I do the same as the guru brushing primer into the areas I can't get enough paint to with the spray.. most of the time I will end up doing the same with the top coat.
I believe the paint I am using has a glycol base...still cuts up to 1 litter to a gallon with water.
the gilders past I have been using I get from architectural iron out of NJ. it comes in a little tin like shoe polish, in a lot of ways it is a lot like shoe polish. it is a wax base and comes in a ton of colors. I particularly like the celtic bronze the copper the german silver and the incan gold. to apply rub a small amount on to a soft cloth your finger or a scrap of leather (each gives a slightly different affect) rubbing it in with a light touch will catch the highs a little harder will coat a whole area and if you coat the whole area and then switch to a clean are of the cloth you can rub the highs clean leaving the color in the lows. you can use more than one color if you let it dry for 15-20 min multiple colors built up on say a leaf can look amazing. for interior you don't really need to do more than that. for exterior and high wear areas (handrail,door handles etc.) I coat with a clear coat , I have in the past used permalac (works well if it is a dry day if not ...) along with various other exterior lacquers and clear coats. the biggest problems I have run into with the clears is clouding from moisture in the air.
over all it is a easy to use , works better with more texture on the bar, or hitting only the "wear points" with a little practice you can get a wide range of affects, and it is fairly easy to replicate later,(IE sample to finished railing)
take a look at my web site and you can see some of the afect that you can get with the guilders paste,
Falling hammer productions
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MP
- Wednesday, 11/18/09 19:48:59 EST
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Epoxy paints:
All of them will break down from UV exposure, even those intended for outdoor use. Because of this they chalk badly.
I have first hand experience with Sherrin Wiliams 2 part epoxy paint, but not on ironwork. It adheres well and is tough, but for exterior aplications it should be overcoated with a paint that takes UV well.
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- Dave Boyer
- Wednesday, 11/18/09 21:42:28 EST
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Gilders paste info:
Hey MP, thanks a ton for the info on the gilders paste. I'm fairly new to blacksmithing but, I'm already having issues with texture highlites and paint. As you can see a little ways up the page we just started talking about the use of gilders paste for inside work and with your input too I'm getting realy reved up about trying this stuff myself.
Thanks again.
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- merl
- Wednesday, 11/18/09 21:51:56 EST
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hey jock:
hey there jock---- i just wanted to state for the record.... your the man!!! thanks for all your help!!
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- pete
- Thursday, 11/19/09 17:04:06 EST
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Have always had some fun givin stuff away, usually to a kid havin a Birthday or even an INTERESTED kid who 'guesses' what number I'm thinkin of....sure a number of ways gettin yer goods to someone you want to have it or deserves it, and they DO spead the word around for you.
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- dogsoldier69
- Thursday, 11/19/09 17:44:26 EST
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WELCOME to the anvilfire!
