Blacksmithing and Metalworking Q&A : anvilfire Guru page : August 15

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Hi
I have reciently moved into a new shop space. I am have some concerns that the noise from my power hammer and anvil will be too much for the neighbors. I need to figure out a way to quiet down especially my power hammer. It is a home made air hammer. It currently sits on 1/2 plywood on a concrete floor. I am considering putting a rubber horse mat under it as the the floor acts like a drum and the sound echos of the walls. Do you know of anything I can do to quiet it down, or to keep sound from going out the walls. any thoughts or help would be greatly appreciated

Thanks
Erik

Erik Newquist - Sunday, 08/15/10 19:08:31 EDT

Thanks for your responces. I was hoping someone would know of a book or museum or such which might have a definitive answer. Knowing that the nuts are likely not the "silver bullet" I was hoping, I can look at other things.

There were two ferries in the area. This one folded in the early 1820's. We wonder if the metal objects are from nearby railroad (but can't guess their purpose) or for fish traps. Almost every rocky shoals in this river has metal rods accepted as being for fish traps and weirs. These are hard, tarnished and uncorroded. They are straight, a foot or more tall and unthreaded. The items at the possible ferry site are varied, close to the rock and heavily corroded. Just don't know for sure what they are.

Thanks again. This was the only Blacksmith site that seemed like it would answer questions and you did.

Thanks,
Paul Hoinowski

Paul Hoinowski - Sunday, 08/15/10 20:47:16 EDT

I am helping the ely nv rail road musem,reset the base on their chambersburg air hammer,dont know exacally how big,what do i need to know befor i attemp this,any help greatly apreatcaited

bob Parker - Sunday, 08/15/10 22:06:06 EDT

Hammer Noise: Erik, Excessive hammer noise has all kinds of sources. Hollow anvils, hollow rams, hollow frames. Any of these will cause excessive noise. So will undampened steel frames (they will ring like a bell).

In some machines the hollow spaces are filled with sand, shot or lead. All these will add mass and reduce ring.

Mounting the hammer on an isolation pad will help reduce transmitted noise but not a lot of the hammer noise.

General shop noise can be reduced with typical sound transmission abatement methods. This includes insulating walls, covering walls and flat surfaces with carpet, padding and so on. In castles the tapestry wall hangings were not so much for warmth as reducing noise. Pads for cushioning the feet will also reduce sound reflection. I do not like them in the forge area due to hot items making smelly rubber smoke. But they will help cut down on the noise.

The noisiest machines in shops are skill saws, table saws and chop saws, hand air hammers used on sheet metal and air wrenches. Noise from these carry far and are obnoxious.

- guru - Sunday, 08/15/10 22:29:28 EDT

Chambersburg Hammers Bob, Chambersburg made hammers from 100 pounds to 25 tons or more. They also made different types of hammers.

Hammer foundations vary a lot but can be huge engineered structures for large hammers. Shop type makes a difference. If machine tools are near by OR inhabited buildings some hammers are installed on large inertia block foundations with snubbers (shock absorbers).

If the machine is a museum piece it may never be operated, operated on special occasions or operated on a regular schedule. These make a difference as well.

Tell us more and we may be able to help.

- guru - Sunday, 08/15/10 22:45:21 EDT

Hammer Foundations: There are three types of hammer bases. Flush with the floor, sub floor and above the floor. Chambersburg made flush and sub floor types. The sub floor types are most common.

Both types usually require a special foundation. This varies according to the soil type and hammer location. In soft soils deep wooden pile foundations were common. In compact clay concrete foundations are common.

One important thing to know about two piece hammers (those with a seperate anvil that usually require a sub floor foundation) is that the anvil level is critical and determined by marks on the ram which indicate the maximum downward travel. If the anvil is set too low or the hammer operated without one of the dies the ram can travel too far and wreck the piston or bottom of the cylinder. This only takes ONE stroke of the hammer and the result can be tens of thousands of dollars of damage.

The first step in installing a hammer is to find the maximum travel mark, measure its location relative to the base of the frame then determine the height of the anvil and dies. For safety this height should be an inch or more higher than the minimum. Make a drawing to record the dimensions on, double check it.

- guru - Monday, 08/16/10 01:45:10 EDT

A friend of mine recently purchased two used anvils having enquired at the local farrier supply shop "how much?"..... after picking himself up off the floor at the sheer piracy going on there (112 lbs aso) $1100+tax .Yep thats right we live in Australia a land founded by convicts and apparently theres still a few selling horseshoes and anvils .
Well back to the two "new" editions , the first is marked
--------------------------
(horn facing right )
PETER
WRIGHT
PATENT
SOLID WROUGHT (in a circle)
( a letter "E" -maybe "3") hard to tell
3 2 14 (yep its big) 409 lb I believe
---------------------------------------
36.5"oal
15"h
face is 23.25"x 5.5" ,1.5" hardy ?pritchel
horn 10.25" 15"dia @ table
table 3" stepped down from face 3/4"
feet have step and measure 14"x13" in size

as far as i can see there are no other markings
The question is what year do you estimate it was made ?
As far as I know it was in a blacksmiths shop in Netherby Victoria Australia up until the shop closed down in the 1950's , Im not sure how long it was there or its history since "retirement" , I say that, as its in excellent condition and is mirror flat some small dings on the horn but otherwise had a fairly easy 100+ yrs (if I look half as good i'd be happy).
Now onto the second , its marked
-----------------------------
(horn facing right)
JOHNBROOKS
STOURBRIDGE
WARRENTED
JS

weight is on the other side 1.3.16 maybe(18)

-----------------------
25"oal
10.75"h
face 16"x4.25"
horn 7.25" 1.75" table

So far im yet to find anything out on this one only that Stourbridge is approx 10mile from Dudley UK .It looks very similar to the Peter Wright in the London pattern maybe just a little lower in scale . many thanks for any info on these two greats .

Rik C - Monday, 08/16/10 11:10:49 EDT

On some web-site I saw a 750 ton steam hammer that was made in France, I believe they had to dig down to bed rock to support it, it is now on display.

Mike T. - Monday, 08/16/10 11:12:41 EDT

oh , if anyone was wondering $1400 for the PW $600 for the JB ,thats aus $ so about 1260 and 540 US . Not sure if thats good or bad ,but a shipload better that buying new "junk".

Rik C - Monday, 08/16/10 11:22:24 EDT

Rik, It is difficult to date Peter Wright anvils other than by fine details of style. The mark "patent" appears from 1853 on and the last PW's made were probably in the 1930's. So at a minimum it is 75 years old and a maximum of 150.

The Brooks is new to me other than the modern cast steel Vaughan/Brooks. I called Richard Postman and he says he has recorded a John Brooks for his new book that was made in 1827 and has no pritchel hole (an indication that an anvil was made prior to the 1830's.

Rik, the prices are similar to what you would pay in the U.S. in the current market. Sometimes you luck out and pay less but those are fair prices and as you note, they are better than new AND the quality is as good as or superior to anything new.

Here in the U.S. Peter Wright and Mousehole Forge had the majority of the market. In other parts of the British Empire companies like Alldays and Onions dominated the market. Other anvil makers sold their products everywhere other than the U.S. I suspect this was some sort of deal either controlled by the British Government or by some merchantile organization. Alldays and Onions was a huge company that made everything from anvils to automobiles but you don't see any of their products in the U.S.

- guru - Monday, 08/16/10 11:54:55 EDT

thanks guru , great info , my imagination runs wild at the thought of what either of these fine tools have created in there life and what they may create in the future .

Rik C - Monday, 08/16/10 21:13:40 EDT

I have an old worn out anvil from the 1700's that has a broken horn and face plate that is worn through. I've started to write its "auto biography" a couple times. How it was born of fire, shipped across the ocean in a small crowded sailing ship to Barbados and then was carried to Virginia by a freed Irish bondsman, then lost to an established blacksmith in a wager on a horse race. . . How it made parts for great plantation houses and repairs during three wars in Virginia, was made "second anvil" then worn out by an apprentice making nails after the revolution. . . and so on until the day it was sold at auction at a run down farm where share croppers had used it through the depression and into the 1960's when everyone left the farm. . . Lots of detail to fill in.

- guru - Monday, 08/16/10 21:48:53 EDT

Guru, Sounds like a great story, keep going with it.

Carver Jake - Monday, 08/16/10 23:45:29 EDT

0) prefer e-mail...

1) Ref: Sunday, 08/08/10 15:30:52 EDT
I believe your are correct, if I read correctly: F=ma -> a=F/m.

2) Went to a local "recycle" yard today. (I found and bought a RR spike and splitting maul head lying on the ground for $2.50--30cents/lb.) They have a two pieces of plate steel. Both are similar one is rectangular, the other is close. Approximate dimensions for the rectangular is 2"x12"x6'. I'm thinking this might be similar to A36 (structural steel) and is 30cents a pound if I buy it from the "young person" I talked to today. I might get it as low as 10-20cents if I talk to the "boss". I'm thinking I might be able to cut and form these into a decent DIY anvil for meer pennies on the (very weak) dollar. The "young person" I talked to today estimated the rectangular piece at 200lbs (he was less sure of his estimate the more he talked about it).

My question is, (I'll list my experience in a moment) should I buy this steel and work it into my first anvil--ignoring the 2tons of RR rail steel in my shed that I'm still finish building, but free was the right price. Or should I ignore the temptation to start such a project?

Resume':
I've recently taken two quarters of welding (but my major is Power-Plant Operations) and will complete my "welding certificate" as my last college quarter. I have a brand new Lincoln TIG 175 Square Wave. And Oxy-fuel: oxy-propane, oxy-acetylene. And MIG: Craftsman (ew!) 120Vac wanna-be welder. I recently cut some old (very?) RR track using oxy-propane with no helpful literature! and have used a oxy-acetylene cutting machine at the college I now attend. I'm 47-years-old and among the recently unemployed, since grey-hair is a disease that those with lack-of-intelligence are very susceptable to!

Cost:
The rectangular piece should cost somewhere in the range of $60 US. Both would be over twice that.

Should I buy the steel and build an anvil or two, or just try to find one that has already been built?

Dale
(Don't expect 100% coherancy tonight....)

- Dale E. Edmons - Tuesday, 08/17/10 03:05:27 EDT

The weight estimate is off by more than half. Actual = 490 pounds.

For estimating purposes steel weighs 1/3 pound per cubic inch. So, take 2 by 12 equals 24, times 24 (1/3 of 72') = 576. This is a little high but as I noted, for estimating. Otherwise steel weighs .2835 lbs/cuin.

Since there are two similar pieces the total is 980 pounds. At 30c = ~$300.

This will undoubtedly make a superior power hammer anvil than bundling a bunch or RR-rail. Both will need a cap of about 2" to distribute the load equally across the parts. More cutting and welding will be necessary on the RR-rail anvil and this has costs other than just labor (rods, gas and electric).

I had a fellow write once that his wife was throwing a fit because the month he built his power hammer the electric bill jumper $200! She said it was all that welding (he had some 2" beads), He said no-way. . . I had to say I was sorry, the lady was right.

The goal of the Junk Yard Hammer builder is to build with what is on hand and as cheaply as possible. Welds don't have to be 2" beads. . . but there IS a cost that is difficult to estimate. And if you flame cut all that rail there will be a significant cost in abrasives grinding the ends sufficiently smooth and clean. It is hard to estimate these things but they do have a significant cost unless its a "government" job. Sometimes it is cheaper to pay to have things sawed square and clean.

No email address to send to. . .

- guru - Tuesday, 08/17/10 08:32:43 EDT

Old anvil story. Mine is shorter than Jock's. George Washington used it! (BOL)
I have a colonial anvil for sale @ $350 + shipping. I'm in Santa Fe. Three views: http://www.swaba-abana-chapter.org/images/Pictures/anvil%20back.JPG
Same url but substitute horn instead of back. Same url but substitute side instead of back.

Frank Turley - Tuesday, 08/17/10 10:27:45 EDT

Great old anvil. Looks pretty small (as is common for these). What does it weigh?

My anvil story was going to be considerably more detailed and written from the anvil's point of view. . From birth to retirement. It occasionally gets used when I need an anvil for kids. However, I think I used it last to demonstrate that an old worn out broken down anvil was still a useful tool. I've started writing it several times and got distracted and not gotten back to it. . .

- guru - Tuesday, 08/17/10 11:24:01 EDT

Dale, I would have them cut it at least in half with a bandsaw; then you have 2 flat ends to match up if you're trying to double up on the width. I spent a couple hours and multiple angle grinder disks trying to grind a torch cut end flat before realizing that the steel yard would cut the piece for me for $10 a cut.

mstu - Tuesday, 08/17/10 12:38:50 EDT

Guru,

I 2nd the idea of going-on with your Anvil-Story.

You did such a good job on telling the story of ( My First Anvil ) that it causes everyone that reads it to reflect back to when & how they got their own first anvil.
I don't see how this Anvil-Story that's stirring around in you wouldn't be any different.

danial - Tuesday, 08/17/10 13:46:46 EDT

Thanks for the encouragement. I only have a hundred or so articles to edit/write at any time. . . I try to work on them according to the current interest, need or inspiration. I'm still writing a bunch on health/fittness and food. . .

- guru - Tuesday, 08/17/10 14:21:44 EDT

My old English anvil weighs 78 pounds. It has the handling holes.

Frank Turley - Tuesday, 08/17/10 14:40:14 EDT

Speaking of early anvils, my friend Randy McDaniel told me of a wonderful portrait of a Philadelphia blacksmith, "Pat Lyon at the Forge," 1826-27. This painting shows Lyon wearing his apron and holding his hammer. The anvil is of a typical British shape and there is a sledge hammer in the foreground not unlike our current blacksmith sledges.
http://www.engr.psu.edu/mtah/articles/pdf/pat_lyon.pdf

Frank Turley - Tuesday, 08/17/10 14:54:35 EDT

Guru

I would love to read some of your health/fitness and food articles. When I was smith-ing full time and felt the pressure of time I would mosey down to the service station and get a cherry coke and something sticky/sweet/covered in chocolate. When my activity level dropped and my diet didn’t I blew up like that little grape girl in the willy wonka movie.

As im working out and getting into the shop more ive been doing a lot more high protein low fat and sugar diet that’s seemed to work very well for me. And i can see and feel the difference!

Im a fan of non processed foods, and most of my sugar intake comes from fruit. My favorite treat though is an almost fat free, sugar free cheesecake. It takes care of that sweetness urge that I get with out the sleepyness of most processed snacks.

Oh and i dont fix things for chocolate chip cookies anymore.

Kevin - Tuesday, 08/17/10 15:17:53 EDT

Angone got a rough idea how much it'll be to ship a 350# anvil from say Georgia to utah? I know that ups and fedex ships freight but not the rates.
Currently I have a section of rr track that will be a light duty anvil seeing as it weighslbs like 55 lbs or so. I'm also looking to see about building a coal forge on the cheap, and I think I can build a *good* one for $75 or less.

PondRacer

PondRacer - Tuesday, 08/17/10 16:26:26 EDT

Shipping: Pondracer, I would need two zip codes to get UPS rates. But I think you will need to ship by freight. I would guess $1/lb.

- guru - Tuesday, 08/17/10 17:01:52 EDT

I havent personally used it but ive heard good things about

http://www.uship.com/

you can put a shipment out for bids. A company might take it as part of an LTL shipment. If you go this route take a couple minutes to research your bidders before you award the job to someone.

Kevin - Tuesday, 08/17/10 17:04:46 EDT

Health and Safety Articles: See The Guru's Story

Kevin, I've been on a "Nutritarian" diet. Its similar to a Vegan diet without the bread and sugar. A bit of misinformation is that you have to eat meat, fish, dairy or eggs to get protein. Vegetables contain sufficient protein to support athletes and body builders as well as anyone else.

Low fat is good but they are finding from large population studies as well as laboratory research that animal protein supports and encourages cancer. That includes protein powders that are extracted from dairy products.

Yeah. . my ex-wife was a fair cook but her specialties were cookies of all types . . . My specialty was eating them and pizza and pounds of cheese. . .

Our sugar-free "hit" had been coming from pudding but it is made with Aspartame (Nutri Sweet). This is another food additive to avoid since it was repeatedly proven to cause brain cancer and only got past the FDA by bribing its head with a three million dollar a year job in private industry. . .

- guru - Tuesday, 08/17/10 17:29:24 EDT

We just got our latest issue of Archeology magazine (Sept-Oct) and they had an article on the Rio Tinto mines in Spain that have been worked pretty much from the stone age on.

They mention that they have recovered 500 roman hammers and show a picture of a few roman iron items---showing the WI striations beautifully on one; but the best thing is one of the hammer is a "weight forward hammer"---I keep telling folks that it's not necessarily a "japanese hammer" but was known in Europe for centuries!

Thomas

Thomas P - Tuesday, 08/17/10 17:39:26 EDT

The ancient Greeks who came before the Romans used the weight forward hammer in the Bronze age and carried it over into the Iron Age. They had both small hand hammers as well as sledges in this type design.

Greek Smiths

Greek Bronze Smiths - The Foundry Painter

- guru - Tuesday, 08/17/10 17:58:05 EDT

Jock, is that depiction accurate? I would think that SOME form of protective clothing would be worn even at the most primitive foundries.

- Nippulini - Tuesday, 08/17/10 18:04:30 EDT

CAN ANYONE OUT THERE TELL ME WHAT THE MARKINGS ON RR SPIKES MEAN.AND WHAT KIND OF STEEL MOWER BLADES ARE MADE OF.

Terry Schuyler - Tuesday, 08/17/10 19:11:21 EDT

From the official specs:

Two classes of track spikes are given specifications, both low carbon and high carbon. Two sizes of track spike are identified, one of 5/8 inch square shaft and one of 9/16 inch.

Page 5-2-1. "A low carbon track spike will not contain greater than 0.12% carbon nor greater than 0.20% copper.

Page 5-2-2. Section 6a.
Bending properties: The body of a full size finished spike shall stand being bent cold through 180 degrees flat on itself without cracking on the outside portion of the bent portion.

Page 5-2-2 Section 11. Marking. A letter or brand indicating the manufacturer shall be pressed on the head of each spike while it is being formed. When copper is specified, the letters "CU" shall be added.

Page 5-2-3: Specifications for high carbon steel track spikes 1968. Carbon not greater than 0.30%, nor greater than 0.20% copper. Page 5-2-4. Section 6a. Bending properties: The body of a full size finished spike shall stand being bent cold through 120 degrees around a pin, the diameter of which is not greater than the thickness of the spike without cracking on the outside portion of the bent portion.

Page 5-2-5 Section 11. Marking: A letter or brand indicating manufacturer and also the letters "HC" indicating high carbon, shall be pressed on the head of each spike while it is being formed. When copper is specified, the letters "CU" shall be added."

Thomas P - Tuesday, 08/17/10 19:18:18 EDT

Note that "high carbon" spikes top out at .3 the lower boundary for medium carbon steels.

Rail clips are .4-.6 %C and so make a much better blade.

Lawnmower blades vary depending on the age, manufacturer type of usage intended, etc. Some make good blades some won't harden much you have to test each one!

Thomas

Thomas P - Tuesday, 08/17/10 19:22:17 EDT

Ancient Greek Work Clothing: Nip, I suspect so. Warriors of the time wore sandals, soft tin greeves and short body armour that did not cover the arms or legs. Women wore light nearly transparent gowns that often covered only one breast. Public nudity was common. Today over 2000 years later workers in Indian foundries have been filmed working in sandals or barefoot wearing nothing other than a loin cloth. Ancient Greek vase painters recorded many parts of Greek life.

- guru - Tuesday, 08/17/10 19:39:35 EDT

Terry Schuyler,

If you find a railroad spike with a number on top, don't do anything to it, it is a date nail. Years ago, when tracks were put down, a date nail was placed every so often to let the track gang know when the track was layed. I remember back in the mid seventies a track foreman pulled up some old track and there was a 12 on top of the spike. This meant the ties had been there since 1912 !! Ties used to be boiled in creosote, but not anymore. Old spikes like this are probably worth money, especially to a collector.

Mike T. - Tuesday, 08/17/10 21:25:21 EDT

Interesting. . . Looks like I need to update the RR-spike FAQ.

Back in the teens and twenties when they were putting up power poles all over the country they initially thought that creosoted poles would have a 5 year life. Five years past and the poles were fine so they chalked up the life as 10 years. Then a decade went by and the poles were fine so they increased the life to 15 years. . . Well, in rural areas there are still poles placed in the twenties and thirties. They are approaching 100 years old and still in use.

On the other hand the old rail line that ran through my old home town is used for return coal cars going back to West Virginia. Seems like they have put down new ties every 5 or 10 years and regraded the ballast about every 5 years. It must be darn important to get all those empty cars back to West Virginia so that the coal for export is never interrupted.

- guru - Tuesday, 08/17/10 22:13:25 EDT

Guru, often heavily used RR tracks see severe abrasion wear on the ties. I bought a few old hand hewn ties, and the bottoms were smooth and displayed heavy wear. The harder parts like the knots stood proud of the worn surfaces. In my parts we often saw furnace slag for ballast, and it was glass like and was probably very different than areas that use more rounder stone.

ptree - Tuesday, 08/17/10 22:17:04 EDT

I really enjoyed your indepth article about post vises. I have a 4 inch smooth jaw which is stamped on the side--MOSS & GAMBLE--Sheffield--Warranted--It has a little light rust on it and appears to have been used very gently over the years. I plan to use your photos as a guide to taking it apart to clean it. Thanks again for the great information

bill - Tuesday, 08/17/10 22:52:53 EDT

From 31905 (Columbus GA) to 84601 (Provo UT)

PondRacer

PondRacer - Tuesday, 08/17/10 23:06:05 EDT

UPS will not ship over 150 pounds. . . Try the http://www.uship.com/ website.

Dimensions of the anvil are about 30 x 12 x 14.

- guru - Tuesday, 08/17/10 23:30:27 EDT

UPS and FedEx both has _freight_ shipping, you have to ask them. Dunno what their rates are... I am checking out uship.com; I know I used ABF before, but that was for moving myself from TX to IL... was cheaper than even the uhaul :)

PondRacer

PondRacer - Wednesday, 08/18/10 06:45:02 EDT

UPS and FedEx freight are not available everywhere and often you need an account to get a response about them. While I have a UPS account we are quite rural and do not have freight service that I can determine.

The last time I shipped an anvil, I crated it in a fork liftable crate and had to haul it 65 miles to a regional truck depot. When I received the same anvil I had to pay extra for palletizing but it arrived without the pallet but with a tangle of wire where it had been tied to a pallet. Somewhere enroute they decided that the pallet took up too much room and stripped it. . . Many times anvils are shipped crateless with the paperwork taped to the waist and or face.

Years ago someone tried to have an anvil shipped across country by blacksmith grapevine. I do not know if it worked or not.

- guru - Wednesday, 08/18/10 09:32:02 EDT

cross ties..

http://www.nscorp.com/footprints/world.html

click on extending cross tie life. happened to find this when i was browsing norfolk southern's website a few weeks ago.

- Ty Murch - Wednesday, 08/18/10 11:21:43 EDT

Ahhhhh... So there's the catch I've been looking for... Makes sense then to possibly go through an LTL motor freight carrier (rare instances you can ship via Amtrak but will not work in this case)

Thanks!

PondRacer

PondRacer - Wednesday, 08/18/10 12:17:01 EDT

I've been part of "blacksmith mail" from Quad-State to the middle of Arizona in two steps: (I was Q-S to mid NM and another smith was mid NM to mid AZ) It can work if you have good people; but is often slow if you have to have multiple legs.

The date stamps I have seen were on the heads of nails not spikes.

I'm happy to hear that creosoted poles have a long life as they are the supports for my shop extension. I got them with about 10 years on them and out here I'd expect them, to outlast me and my grandson, especially as they will be out of the sun and rain.

Ancient Smithing clothing: I would think that the traditional bullhide apron would be used even with not much else save a loincloth. Remember they were forging real wrough iron which can be a bit juicy when struck compared to modern mild steel---small ferrous silicate spheres in the dirt are an indicator that iron was forged in a location.

However when you are doing a picture for a paying customer you do what they want!

Thomas

Thomas P - Wednesday, 08/18/10 13:09:01 EDT

After seeing the film of the Indian drudges working near naked and barefoot carrying ladles of molten iron down rows of floor molds I'd believe anything. . . These guys were casting man-hole covers for NYC.

Ancient Roman foundrymen wore sandals with soles raised on thin iron bars (to reduce the heat conductivity). Not much top splash protection but they could walk on the hot sand casting floor and not get burned. This was 2,000 years before the conditions in the Indian foundry were filmed.

But there IS the matter of style in the ancient art that may color the reality of the situation.

- guru - Wednesday, 08/18/10 13:46:05 EDT

Thomas P.

You are probably right about the date nail being an actual nail. I remember placing it in the desk drawer and do not remember it being as heavy as a spike.

Mike T. - Wednesday, 08/18/10 15:26:28 EDT

Some of those rail "nails" were pretty darn heavy and could be called a "spike". While not a rail spike, they are pretty big.

- guru - Wednesday, 08/18/10 15:28:32 EDT

Hello i am doing a school project on blacksmiths in the medieval time, i was wondering what dietary needs a blacksmith would need e.g. if he needed more or less of a certain type of food.
Also was there life intense or laid back
i need to get in their head any other information would be great

thanks

Hadley in Nz

Hadley in Nz - Wednesday, 08/18/10 17:44:04 EDT

Hadley, During Medieval times in Europe (I assume that is where you are talking about) life was hard. Depending on where and who you were your diet would vary a lot according to your prosperity. Folks worked to survive and rarely had a choice in diet as we do today. A skilled blacksmith of the time would be economically a little above a common laborer or subsistence farmer but not much. Since everyone worked physically hard most of the time there was not a lot of different caloric need from one person to the other.

As to exactly what their diet consisted of you will need to research that a bit more. Or perhaps one of our medievalists or reenactors will respond. I do know that in the Iron Age (prior to the Medieval period) the diet in Europe consisted of stews or gruels made of a lot of wild grains. They were a staple for many centuries.

Etymology: Middle English grewel, from Anglo-French gruel, of Germanic origin; akin to Old English grūt grout - Date: 14th century

------------------------------

Gruel is a food preparation consisting of some type of cereal— oat, wheat or rye flour, or also rice— boiled in water or milk. It is a thinner version of porridge that may be more often drunk than eaten and need not even be cooked. Historically, gruel, often made from millet or barley, or in hard times of chestnut flour and even the less tannic acorns of some oaks, has been the staple of the human diet, especially that of the peasantry - Wickapedia

- guru - Wednesday, 08/18/10 18:11:21 EDT

Well there are the basic books "Life in a Medieval XYZ" a lot of them written by the Gies's that cover the basics then there are works like Cathedral Forge and Waterwheel that have good pictures of medieval smiths in them and such data as to when the started using coal.

Smiths could be anything from local "do everything" smiths in small villages to ones that lived in the big cities and were quite specialized and could be Master's of pretty large businesses, (sword and armour making were done *only* by specialized smiths in big towns!)

Physical labour was often quite hard in medieval times---but look into how many Saints days were celebrated. The total number of work days could end up be less than we have now! Diet of the working man had much less meat in it than that of nobility and many times could actually be "healthier" than that of the nobles.

To get into their head may I suggest "Medieval People" by Eileen Power which tries to give examples of how people thought back then.

Divers Arts, Theophilus, written circa 1120 A.D. has some sections on metalworking including case hardening of files and that infamous recipe on hardening steel in the urine of a "small red headed boy or of a goat fed ferns for three days" (and yes it works)

I have a fairly good library in this area and could make suggestions if you have more questions

Thomas

Thomas P - Wednesday, 08/18/10 18:32:10 EDT

Peter Wright Swage Block?
A friend of mine called and said that a fellow wanted to trade or sell a 150 lb Peter Wright swage block after further discussion the guy said it was only marked England.
Any one ever seen a PW swage? mousehole?

Greg S - Wednesday, 08/18/10 22:08:58 EDT

Hello,I was looking for my first anvil when I came across a Peter Wright 140#. I tested it with a 1" bearing and got an average bounce of 9 1/4" from 10" with a good ring.The face
is smooth except for a chip on the edge about 11/2" long by 3/8" the price is $400 should I pass or buy thanks in advance.

Sean G - Wednesday, 08/18/10 23:05:07 EDT

Sean, If the anvil is perfect and has not had any repairs then the price is between right and on the high side. But PW's are going high these days for the same reason they were popular ages ago, name recognition. For a working anvil many non-name anvils of similar quality sell for 30 to 50% less.

PW Swage Block. . Never saw one but its possible. However, there were hundreds of anvil and blacksmith tool manufacturers in Great Britain. The "England" marking means nothing in identifying a manufacturer. Peter Wright primarily made anvils and vises clearly putting their name on most of the things they sold.

There has been a lot of forgery involving the Peter Wright brand in recent years and one must be very wary of things marked with the name that do not look like known products.

- guru - Wednesday, 08/18/10 23:36:21 EDT

Sean G: $400 would be too high here in Pensylvania, where I live, but might not be out of line where You live.

Location makes a big difference, as some places have few anvils, and that drives the price up.

- Dave Boyer - Wednesday, 08/18/10 23:39:54 EDT

To clarify I was dropping the bearing from 10"'and the chip is in the face and looks to be about the full depth of the hardened plate. It runs along the edge 1 1/2" and in from the
edge 3/8" there were no cracks in the face
Or

Sean G - Thursday, 08/19/10 00:08:47 EDT

Ok thanks,I live in Oklahoma I haven't been looking long I just have the fever you know. Plus I'm tired of my reinforced I-beam anvil lol

Sean G - Thursday, 08/19/10 00:13:31 EDT

Oklahoma is not anvil poor like some of the Western and less populous states. The chipping is fairly normal for this age anvil but it is not pristine. The corner could be ground round. Should be worth about $250 to $300 tops. But the price is also much lower than a new high quality anvil would cost. Depends on how desperate you are and what you time looking for another anvil is worth.

- guru - Thursday, 08/19/10 00:39:02 EDT

Thanks for the info and your time guys!!

Sean G - Thursday, 08/19/10 00:54:38 EDT

Thanks for the info and your time guys!!

Sean G - Thursday, 08/19/10 00:54:40 EDT

Sean, When's the next Salt Fork conference or meeting? You might get a line on an OK anvil at one of those.

I'm beginning to think we're getting an "anvil bubble" where folks keep upping the price on anvils but with no real base to it.

I know e-bay started rising prices at fleamarkets in OH because of what they were sing on sales to tool poor areas or to collectors; many a time I've had a dealer tell me that "that what it goes for on e-bay" and then when I ask why they are not selling it on e-bay they say they don't want the hassle and the overhead of selling on e-bay---(but they want the e-bay price...)

Round these parts, central NM, craigslist is a pretty good source for those who can watch and wait!

Thomas

Thomas P - Thursday, 08/19/10 13:01:08 EDT

How do anvils get repaired?

Pondracer

PondRacer - Thursday, 08/19/10 13:16:22 EDT

Looks like the next salt fort conference meeting is this Saturday the 21st.I found the anvil I was asking about on craigslist the seller had other "anvils" he was "reparing". I offered him $300 he wouldn't budge he told me he knew what anvils were worth, however he had no idea what I was doing when I checked the ring and hardness. This must be part of the problem people "know" anvils are valuable and aquire them to sell without really knowing much about them.

Sean G - Thursday, 08/19/10 13:50:50 EDT

Personally, I ring bells, never cared a whit about whether either of my two anvils rings. Never tested em with a ball bearing either.
My point being, dont get too hung up on esoterica- find a good anvil, sure, but much more important, USE an anvil, any anvil, and learn to actually beat hot metal.

As Ken Kesey used to say, "look at the donut, not the hole".

My theory about why anvils are more expensive is not some sort of "bubble".
Its much simpler- supply and demand.

There are probably between 15,000 and 20,000 Hobby Blacksmiths in the USA today, and another couple hundred thousand home welding and fab guys who wouldnt mind having an anvil, even if they dont use it much.

Demand.

New anvils are being produced at a tiny fraction of the rate that anvils were made between 1800 and 1940. And as we all know, New Anvils can easily cost $1000 to $2500 these days.

Old anvils get worn out, scrapped, and promoted to lawn ornament all the time.

So we have lots less old anvils, and fewer, more expensive, new anvils-

Supply.

and it seems pretty obvious to me that supply is less than demand, especially at any price under $500.

Hence, prices go up.

- Ries - Thursday, 08/19/10 14:38:18 EDT

Anvil Repair: Sean, 99.99% of people that repair anvils do not know what they are doing. All they know is that the have a flat face and sharp corners. NEITHER are required and sharp corners are NOT desired.

The old anvils have a hard face plate forge welded on. It is only about 1/2" to 5/8" thick on most anvils and when manufactured was ground flat which often makes it thinner from the factory. As hardened the surface of this plate is very hard and the hardness falls off and near the weld to the wrought body may be dead soft.

Many "repairers" machine or grind the anvil flat often removing half of the plate thickness. This results in a soft weak anvil. It is now JUNK that cannot be repaired.

The sway they are often trying to remove from the anvil is better for straightening than a flat surface. You cannot make a slight straightening bend on a flat surface but you can on a slightly swayed surface. An anvil IS NOT a precision reference surface, it is a heavy work surface. So all this grinding and machining has made the anvil LESS useful. . .

Others weld up the corners then grind them sharp. Sharp corners make BAD forgings and rough forgings, and sharp corners are easy to chip or ding. The welds are a different material and cause a HAZ (Heat Affected Zone) that may be very hard and brittle in some places and soft in others. Its just a BAD thing to do.

In most cases the chipped corners can be cleaned up by grinding the sides a little then radiusing what is left and if there is more severe chipping just smooth the corners and live with it.

Radiusing Anvil Corners

The majority of dings in an anvil face can be dressed by hammering if they are fresh raised chisel marks or corner cuts and the rest dusted off with a belt sander. This should not take off more than .005 to .010" (.12 to .25 mm). Often places that do not clean up become smoother over time from use as the metal moves under the hammer microscopic amounts.

I have a collection of old swayed and chipped anvils, anvils without horns. . . They are all very useful AS-IS.

To me a "repaired" anvil is no better than an ASO and I would not have one in my shop even as a door stop. If you see any hint of a repair on an anvil OR if you know a dealer deals in repaired anvils avoid them.

We had an acquaintance buy a pickup load of big anvils (250 to 450 pounds) from a dealer. They were all painted black all over. One old English anvil that weighed about 250 pounds that was loaned to Paw-Paw had been machined about 3/8" and the step recreated at an angle by grinding. It was soft all over the face and after light use was covered with hammer depressions and dinged corners. . . Another from the same dealer had a row of four 1" diameter holes drilled in the face and welded up (presumably to repair a loos face plate). The discoloration of the repair was hidden under the paint. All the anvils had some type of repair or another. As other have said here - "Beware of the painted lady".

The one where the face was machined 3/8" probably just had some sway and chipped corners neither of which would hurt the anvil. It was a well marked old brand that would have kept its value with the wear and tear. But the repair job ruined it.

The only reason for sharp corners on anvils is to show they are NEW. When buying old forged English anvils there may only be one or two per million that have sat somewhere unused. All the rest have been well used and should look like it. Graceful signs of wear are good. That means some idiot has not machined or welded the anvil. Signs of abuse are not so good but only reduce the value of the anvil slightly.

Folks think the "know" anvil prices by seeing the prices gotten by dealer on ebay. Many of these are selling good quality antique or collectors quality anvils to an international market. Most back them up and the prices are high when the items eventually sell. But out on the streets it is the real world. Go to blacksmithing meets, not just the annual conventions but the monthly meetings. There will often be folks there selling anvils at reasonable but not give away prices.

See Finding Anvils

- guru - Thursday, 08/19/10 15:10:11 EDT

Note, I said "junk that cannot be repaired". . I should have said "junk that cannot affordably be repaired". Replacing an anvil face properly is more much costly than a good used anvil. And the results are STILL a repair job.

- guru - Thursday, 08/19/10 15:15:18 EDT

Hmm so an anvil that is kinda rough looking could still be very useful as long as no real major repairs have been done to it, is that what I'm reading here?

Pondracer

PondRacer - Thursday, 08/19/10 16:26:50 EDT

Ries, I agree with you about supply and demand if some one has something people want or need many times unless they want an absurd amount of $$ for it they can get top dollar for it eventually. I only rang the anvil to be sure there wasn't damage I couldn't see and the ball bearing I brougt because there were other anvils there an I wanted to be sure if I got one it was hardened.
Guru, I wouldn't buy a repaired anvil either the seller didn't actually have any repaired for sale

Sean G - Thursday, 08/19/10 16:47:11 EDT

I was watching Ferrari pour an engine block on TV. They made a sand mold and some ingredient was added to the sand to hold it together. Now, how hard would it be to make a sand mold of an anvil and pour the steel yourself ? I thought of something like this....dig a pit in the ground, fill it with coke, have the crucible in the pit, pour coke all around the crucible, have blowers feeding into it. Once the steel is melted, have a short overhead rail to move it to the mold. By the way, in steel mills, what kind of metal is their crucible ( whatever its called ) made of ?

Mike T. - Thursday, 08/19/10 17:21:27 EDT

Casting your Own: First, to cast steel you need almost twice the final part in melted steel for the sprue and risers to prevent shrinks. So, to pour a 100 pound anvil you need nearly 200 pounds of molten metal.

Second, melting steel rapidly changes its chemistry if it is not carefully protected from the atmosphere. High quality steel is run through chemical analysis just before the pour.

Third, the type steel poured is critical and how it is cooled and heat treated is also important. You can make a LOT of expensive scrap if you do not know what you are doing and have the proper facilities.

Small crucibles for steel are made of refractory material, often silicon carbide. Large bull crucibles are a strong steel shell lined with refractory (brick or castable refractory) which is then covered with special coatings like ITC-100 and ITC-296A to prevent erosion and metal sticking. Large ladles are very heavy and must have a mechanical means for controllably tipping them to make pours with spilling or splashing the white hot metal. See the Autobiography of James Nasmyth for the first "safety ladle".

Modern back yard founders often use tilting furnaces for pouring large amounts of metal. They include a built in crucible and spout and the entire device is designed to tilt to make pours. See Two (books) by Chastain, on Foundry Work

There are many bonding agents used in foundry sand. The easiest to use is Petro Bond. It is an oily bonding agent mixed with sand and makes the sand hold together when it is rammed up. However, it is not recommended for high temperature metals such as iron or steel. It will work but the sand is not reusable and the oil flash must be taken into consideration. For iron resin bond sand is commonly used. It can be coated with graphite mold wash to make very smooth castings. Its down side is that it must be ground up after use to use again. But the standard for centuries has been "green sand". This is simply sharp sand, clay bonding agent, a few things to temper the sand, and moisture. The trick to green sand is adjusting the moisture to where the sand bonds together with the least moisture. Molds are made the same day just before use so they do not dry out. Other bonding methods can be prepared days or weeks in advance of pouring.

There are a thousand other details to foundry work. I highly recommend the foundry books by CW Ammen and the smaller derivative works by Steve Chastin. There are also some good on-line foundry sites. Study them all.

Also remember that these are operations that take multiple workers and safety equipment for ALL hands. While it is possible to do small casting alone there is too high a likelihood of injury when pouring large amounts of metal. At a minimum you need someone to pull you out of the fire and call for help.

- guru - Thursday, 08/19/10 18:36:41 EDT

Supply and Demand I remember back in the 1980's talking to other smiths about the fact that all the old power hammers had been found and the best anvils as well. . . So here we are 30 years later and folks are still finding really NICE old anvils and old blacksmithing tools and machines by the truck loads. While demand is way up largely due to Anvils in America creating a huge collector's market for old anvils there are STILL a lot of them out there.

At one time we thought that millions of these things had gone to scrap during the war scrap drives but even though many were collected they were often set aside as having more value than as scrap. We were still a country of blacksmith shops and power hammers are still used industrially today to make MANY small tools. Some machinery was scraped, much was not.

America at the turn of the 20th century was covered by millions of farms and every farm had a small anvil for repairs, and there were also many thousands of blacksmith shops to do the heavier work and light manufacturing that often had several anvils. There were also thousands of small manufacturing shops that just multiple anvils. In total there had to be 10's of millions of sets of blacksmiths tools in North America. Even if 75% was scraped there is a LOT of old blacksmiths tools out there.

New blacksmithing tools are now more plentiful than they have been for 75 years. While anvil manufacturing is far below the peak of the early 1900's it is more than sufficient to supply the demand that can afford new anvils.

So, while demand is UP the high prices are not because of a shortage tools. Much of the used tool market (as is the stock market) is driven by misconceptions (such as a shortage of used tools), inflation on the new tool market, fuel costs effecting everything . . .

Eventually the used tool market will dry up or become so polluted with the current junk that it will not be worth searching. It may be a little tighter, but for now there are still a lot of bargains to be had. It just depends on how much time you have. . .

- guru - Thursday, 08/19/10 20:07:16 EDT

Mike T., We have had this discussion before and I think the conclusion was that you would be miles ahead having an anvil burned out of 4" or 5" stock, welding some feet on it and build up the face with hard surfacing rod.
Spend a lot of time with a hand grinder finish grinding and your done.
Even if you had several steel anvils poured with the intention of spreading the cost of production by selling the others you will still have a certain amount of post pour labor that will probably eat up the better part of a months worth of spare time.
If you want just one or two anvils for yourself then a burnout or weldment is the way to go. Check out the Guru's anvil building and design page, some good stuff there.

- merl - Friday, 08/20/10 00:22:23 EDT

I just had most of this discussion today with a friend who wants to setup an iron foundry behind his shop. He has a good sense of the operation since he has been part of several iron smelts. However, he has no dreams of casting steel, he is looking at coupala melts and pouring grey iron to make swage blocks and similar items. He has a source of almost free foundry coke and a good space to work.

I've also given him the same advice about casting and needing a crew. The difference is casting is much more intense than smelting. It is fast paced. Once your furnace is hot it can be just minutes between taps. You can pour a LOT of iron in a day with a small coupala.

I haven't told him about ductile iron. . . ;)

We will have some film of a small foundry operation as soon as it is converted and edited to a reasonable length.

- guru - Friday, 08/20/10 01:49:32 EDT

Pit Foundry: I've seen this done is shops that did occasional casting and wanted to do it the quick and dirty way. A crucible was set in an earthen pit, probably on a crucible block or brick. Then big propane burners were used manually heat the crucible to melt the brass in it. Looked to be about a 30 pound crucible. Once hot a pair of two man pouring tongs were used to lift and pour the metal.

Another setup I saw used was by an artist at a craft fair. It was a simple stack of foundry coke surrounding a small crucible and a blower (vacuum cleaner I think). I cannot remember but he must have had a surface of sand and refractory brick under the fire because it was being done on a concrete parking deck. I think there were some bricks being used to hold the shape of the fuel pile as well. Pre-made and calcined plaster molds heated on top of the fuel stack and when everything was ready the crucible lifted with tongs and the parts poured. I think he was making belt buckles. This was one of the most primitive foundry setups I think I have ever seen.

The little propane fired melting furnaces I have built that accepted a little crucible that holds 3.2 pounds of brass will melt a full crucible of metal about every 10 minutes or less once hot and only about 15 minutes from lighting the furnace to the first pour. You can fill a LOT of molds in a couple hours of pouring with a little home made melter.

While many folks think melting the metal is the hard part it is NOT. Making molds and knowing how to get good castings out of them is the hard part. I've made a LOT of bad castings and I've seen horrendous castings from commercial foundries that were casting from scrap and waste metal.

For some people making the pattern is one of the hard parts. See Molds I and Molds II. For me making patterns is easy. But I was brought up with mold making and sculpture. Pattern making is sculpture and the more artistic you are the better the pattern. If you've read my all my anvil and swage block articles you will find a LOT of condemnation of bad pattern making. There is no excuse. Its wood, plastic or wax carving. EASY compared to metal. EASY compared to making the sand molds and making the casting. But it IS art and often artless semi-skilled laborers are called upon to make patterns OR DIY folks without the artistic skills make their own patterns. The ART is important.

Low production or pre-production patterns are easy. They can be made of almost any material. Pre-production patterns can be made of junk glued together and finished. All they need to do is hold up long enough to make a metal or resin production pattern. These can be made with pieces of leather, wax, cardboard. . . From these a master mold is often made of hard plaster and then a production master made in the mold. While this sounds complicated it is all plaster (mud) and water cast in wood, plastic or metal boxes. But it takes some planning and experience.

The fellow I was talking about the back yard foundry was saying he did not have the necessary pattern making equipment. . . What equipment? A hand saw, rasp, possibly some chisels and sandpaper? Yeah, its GREAT to have a band saw, planer and so on. . But its just simple carving. Use auto body putty and it gets a LOT easier. . .

But when its time for that white hot metal to hit the sand THAT is when the troubles start.

- guru - Friday, 08/20/10 11:18:27 EDT

One thing about the "primitive" foundry setup I mention above -- what was NOT primitive was the modern graphite or silicon carbide crucible and good fitting pouring tongs. Properly calcining a plaster mold for brass is not hard but it is easy to do poorly and get bad results.

Another tool my friend was complaining about was not having flasks (mold boxes). He had worked in a shop that did brass casting and had all the nifty modern tools. . . including nice light aluminium alloy snap flasks. But again, these can be made of wood and all you need (the hard part) is smooth flat boards, something that can be readily bought in our modern world. Just pine boards, some glue and dowels are needed. . . AND the knowledge. Get those books I mentioned and STUDY them! The knowledge is the power.

- guru - Friday, 08/20/10 11:27:19 EDT

ANVIL BURN:

I have an anvil with a torch-mark on one side of the face of the anvil. It was a painted anvil and makes me sick everytime I look at it.
It's a 225-lb PeterWright that I dreamed of the torch mark being "filled in" with a good welder & welding-rod only after finding it under all the paint.

I was going to bring it up to you when anvil-repair was being talked about again, and see what I should do....
But now I'm feeling you'd just repeat what you've already said before (in the archives as well.) and I've got that sinking, sick feeling in my stomach over my bigger anvil.

So there's really no such dream of fixing this damage?
You don't even want to see a photo of it, do you....Sir?

Yeah, excuse me.
I think I'm gonna go throw-up.

stupid-NEWBIE danial - Friday, 08/20/10 13:41:49 EDT

There is often a feeling that small do-it-yourself projects will be cheaper than factory "economies of scale" projects.

Generally this is only true if you consider all your time as worthless; otherwise just mowing lawns will often fund items at a much more competitive rate than trying to do them by yourself.

We see this a lot in swordmaking questions that I re-phrase as "I can't spend $10 for known good steel on a project that will take $1000 of my time to complete; how do I throw my time away using bad materials?"

Ringing an Anvil is a mandatory test when buying---would you buy a used car without starting it? Anvils that *should* ring but don't means something very very bad is going on---generally delamination of the face. Of course you should know what brands should ring, (cast *steel* and traditionally made anvils), and what brands don't (Fisher, Vulcan) and what brands don't and are actually ASOs---cast iron anviloids.

Once you get it back to the shop stopping the ringing is important!

The ball bearing test indicates if an anvil is properly hardened. If you get the wrong bounce the anvil may have been through a fire, or had the face planed down to soft stuff, or been welded up with the wrong alloy, or...,Anyway something is wrong and that anvil should not be bought as a "user".

Once bought the testing is over and the using starts!

Thomas

Thomas P - Friday, 08/20/10 13:44:25 EDT

If the damage is impeding your work or you JUST CAN"T LIVE WITH IT. There are ways to fix it; but you have to know what you are doing!

I've been smithing 29 years now but when I picked up a 410# Trenton anvil that had been severely damaged by welders at a copper mine I waited until our local group had an anvil repair session run by a fellow who is both a professional welder---and teaches it at a local college!---and a highly trained smith.

He used Rob Gunter's anvil repair process which included a preheat---used an optical pyrometer to be sure we were at the right temperatures though a tempil stick would do...and the proper alloys and did a great job!

At this session he also repaired an anvil that a machinist had butchered by milling off the face till it was too thin to use. It took 5-6 *HOURS* of welding and grinding to get a usable face back on it!

My standard reply to "how much should I mill of the face of my anvil?" is "the same amount you will be willing to mill off your own face".

Thomas

Thomas P - Friday, 08/20/10 13:54:30 EDT

Thomas,

Hearing about your 410-lb Trenton gives me hope then for this anvil.
I'm like you, I don't want ANY face removed from it either!
I can live with a "fixed/repaired" anvil though.
If it can be fixed, then it's going to be my anvil for the rest of my life. It can be ugly like the owner and grow old.
I'm not in a hurry with it, so maybe that's on my side of this.
410-pounder, huh? That's big.

Thanks again, Thomas.

danial - Friday, 08/20/10 21:42:18 EDT

Just out of curiosity, I wonder if anvil molds could be made, taken to Nucor or someplace like that and have them poured ? Some enterprising guys could work full time just making molds and then have them poured.

Mike T. - Saturday, 08/21/10 01:49:01 EDT

I HAZ YOUTOOB!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AK2xJKN_26w

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JoZ6m9CiKA

The world is no longer safe... :]

Too bad I don't like the sound of my voice on recordings. :D

That's all for now, but I will do at least one more video with this showing the whole kit up close. I thought I had done that already, but apparantly hadn't pushed the record button. Sheesh!

- Stormcrow - Saturday, 08/21/10 02:35:36 EDT

Sorry I haven't been on for a while. Have had to do some work!

The shop shell is finished. Separate base for the hammer but the idiots have run plastic conduits through it!

Have to shed a few anvils. Giving one to a US smith in China.

philip in china - Saturday, 08/21/10 08:30:28 EDT

Phillip, I would not run wires in those conduits. . . There is a high probability that the foundation will sink or floor heave and pinch the wires.

Underfloor plastic conduits are common these days but most that I have seen were a rat's nest of tangled tubes. . . When I put in underfloor conduits I have a plan including terminations and access boxes. It takes a lot of advance planning and then being sure it is done according to plan.

- guru - Saturday, 08/21/10 10:31:19 EDT

Cast Steel Anvil Tools: Mike T. There was a guy a decade ago that was selling about 8 different tools taken from designs in one of the old books (Diderots I think). I bought a couple. There were flames, fullers, cradles, arches and a little anvil. All in cast steel.

Anvil

Anvil Tools seen at SouthEast Conference 1999

More recently I purchased a ball and a mushroom stake with bench top holder cast from ductile iron. Same Conference, different guy. Folks selling these kind of things come and go over the years.

The big problem is that most foundries WILL NOT deal with loose patterns (this is a common plain pattern). Most will not use production patterns (split and boarded) made outside their shop OR by pattern makers they do not know (unless you have a lot of financial leverage). Most will also not do one offs no matter who makes the pattern and how much you are willing to pay unless it is a very lucrative job. The good foundries that will do loose patterns are expensive enough that you are MUCH better off buying someone else's anvil.

For anvils, the casting is only about half the cost. They must also be machined and finished, then heat treated. A decade ago heat treating was being quoted at $0.30/lb. With increased fuel costs I am sure it is much more today. AND, if you pick the wrong heat treater and the anvil cracks in two they have a non-responsibility clause. Generally YOU specify the specifics, they just follow your instructions. Don't forget that the foundry will be on one location, the machine shop another and the heat treater another. . . Transportation costs 3 times when delivered to you.

You have to have the right contacts (work in management at the foundry), in the right location (all the resources in reasonable proximity) and be willing to pay top dollar for some of the services.

If you want to MAKE ANVILS see my Anvil Sketchbook on two piece fabricated anvils. It is economical enough to compete with Peddinghaus but not with Euroanvils. I DOES take a good sized shop but not a huge industrial facility. If you have the top machined and heat treated before welding to the base you have saved 50% in weight handling and per pound heat treatment costs. This also reduces the machine sizes needed by about half.

Someone will start making anvils this way. It has just become too onerous to deal with foundries on low production items.

- guru - Saturday, 08/21/10 10:31:47 EDT

Guru, I agree that home shop cast anvils is a labor of love not a money saver.
For a fabbed anvil, have you seen the Brazeal Bros anvil made from a simple slab set on edge. I think I have photos somewhere of the one I made. A 2 to 3" thick slab say 12 to 16" square, set on edge. I porta band sawed the top to ropugh for 2 different diameter drawing parts and one sharp corner butcher area and one flat face area. Set on a welded steel tripod. weighed about 150 all up, but since I had 12"+ of solid steel under the hammer, if felt like much more. Took me an afternoon to cut and weld, and another couple of hours to grind and clean up. When I got a nice little demo anvil I sold that one.

ptree - Saturday, 08/21/10 11:16:55 EDT

I milled the face on my bladesmithing 226lb peter wright anvil. It was nearly flat, but I skimmed a couple of mm off it to make it flat.

I am not an idiot. I prefer a flat face to work on, and its my anvil. The quality of my work has improved.

I dont get why people would use a dinged up anvil that marks their work. You wouldnt use a dinged up hammer would you???

Im all for making the tools useable to me, becasuse thats what they are, tools.

- john n - Saturday, 08/21/10 12:45:08 EDT

I am dubious that you could flame cut, machine, and then heat treat a fabricated 2 piece anvil for much cheaper than a cast one.

At least, one of equal quality.

One of the great advantages of casting is your range of possible alloys.
The 3 or 4 small manufacturers that are making anvils in the USA today, like Nimba, Rathole, and the farriers anvils from TFS, are all made of tough, high carbon alloys well suited to anvils.

To buy a similar quality plate, in 6" or 8" thickness, would be VERY expensive- probably easily 2 bucks a pound, maybe more. Then you waste a lot of it in drops that are cut off.

Even if you can buy a decent sized milling machine used for pennies on the dollar, installing and running a good sized mill ( a bridgeport aint gonna cut it for this kind of work) is not cheap either.

I suppose if you pay yourself nothing, and buy all your tooling on ebay, and steal electricity from the neighbors, have no insurance, and pick up your materials at the steelyard with a wheel barrow- but in reality, the overhead costs for doing your own milling are not cheap.

Then, you have heat treating, as mentioned.

My guess is you quickly get into the place where, to keep a wife, you need to charge about the same amount per pound as the Nimba anvils.

And what you have gained is an enormous amount of work.
Yes, you "could" mill a conical horn with a manual mill. But it would mean most of your waking hours in the machine shop. Or, you could buy a used Haas VF 4 for $50,000 to $80,000, and do it with that- thereby negating any savings over just doing it right, and paying a foundry.

Russell Jacque proved that you can, using american patternmakers, foundries, and heat treaters, make a world class anvil and sell it for about what the huge european corporations sell those for, on a very small scale.
Which is $1200 to $2500, retail, these days.
There is now way to go much cheaper, no matter how you make it, unless you subsidize it with a LOT of free labor.

- Ries - Saturday, 08/21/10 14:47:20 EDT

Guru,

You have some very nice anvil designs, your sketches are very artistic. Why don't you send your copyrights around to
some companies ? Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Mike T. - Saturday, 08/21/10 23:19:08 EDT

Ries, I think you are over estimating the additional work. All the anvil manufacturers you mentioned have to mill the anvil face. They also have to finish the horn which is either NOT being done OR its being done by hand. Many of those anvils you mentioned are also made of ductil iron and heat treated (not quite steel. . .).

I'm replacing patterns and molds with flame cutting. The only added operation is the turning of the horn which produces a finished horn replacing some of the skilled hand labor with machining. Yes, it still takes manpower but is less tedious.

The welding of the waist is no different than what Peddinghaus does. Drilling and broaching the hardy hole is no different than Peddinghaus, Nimba and others.

We used to build machinery that was very heavy. Some was made of plat up to 6" and 8" thick. One part was 4" thick, rolled into a six foot ring 20" tall and another ring rolled and welded making a step and then machined. This part was made as a ductile iron casting on one job and as a fabrication on another. The cost difference was negligable. What was important was delivery. The foundry capacity was often not available or some other scheduling problem. In any event, a lot of it was much heavier than making anvils and much more complicated.

A lot of shops have the necessary capacity and the machining requires no precision, just chip making.

- guru - Sunday, 08/22/10 01:09:14 EDT

Following the steps outlined by Ernie Leimkuhler in http://www.metalwebnews.com/howto/anvil/anvil.html, I made a 450 pound anvil from 6 inch A 36 plate. I had a local shop that specializes in burning cut out the profile by optically following a full size pattern. The 1.0 inch square hardy hole was also flame cut through more than 5 inches from face to the anvil’s waist. It came out square and less than 1/16 inch oversize or taper top to bottom. Many passes with hard facing flux cored 0.045 wire resulted in a decent face except for porosity. Final hard facing thickness was about ¼ inch, and that seemed to be enough to get a decent hammer bounce back. I tried TIG and hand fed hard facing wire to fill each ground out pores, but decided it was not worth the work. It is not my primary anvil (a bit big in my small hot shop), but I am glad I made the effort, an effort greatly aided by the welding classes at the local community college. Their big high amperage machines were really able to lay down the wire. Each pass was flattened by a 9 inch Milwaukee grinder that took a lot of the new material off. After buying the materials (hard facing wire is not cheap and I used a lot of it), paying for the flame cutting, and with the cost of tuition, I could not say I saved any money. I did get fairly good at laying down parallel beads, row after row after row.

Bob Johnson - Sunday, 08/22/10 01:58:15 EDT

Bob, Your's was one of those typical projects where some of the costs were hidden. In this case the electric bill which can be significant. Heavy hard facing can be expensive in time, rod, electricity and abrasives. You also did not own all the equipment and perhaps used the school's abrasives. This is a cost that as Ries noted above is also part of the expense of manufacturing. Equipment does not last forever and no matter how you expense it there is a cost per hour or item.

Welding projects like these are good practice but hard facing rod and wire are both expensive technical welding materials that take a lot of practice to become proficient with - to avoid all that porosity. So, while running a lot of parallel stringer beads is good practice doing so with expensive specialty rods is not recommended. It is one reason I tell folks that if they have to ask about repairing anvils that they should not do it. Repairing tool steel is not something you do as a first time major job.

- guru - Sunday, 08/22/10 12:40:51 EDT

Yesterday I ran off a 30 part job and had several spells sitting and letting the billets get hot. As I sat there sipping cool water I studied the 125# Trenton I use and considered drop forging same. If the dies were set up to make the anvil in 2 pieces and weld them at the waist, I suspect that a 10,000# drop hammer could do the job. You would need 2 sets of dies to get the two parts. Say a decent $100,000 in dies. If a 25,000# were available I suspect that the anvil could be forged in one piece, but the bigger dies would still be about $100,000 due to much bigger dies. I think either process could do anvils to 250-350#.

I think if I were handed the job of making say 100 to 300 anvils a year in sizes from say 125# to 350#, I would go with casting. It would be a buisness case to see if sand cast or lost wax. The lost wax is a more expensive process but very mush more precise. To the point the pritchel and hardy holes could be cast in with only a push through broach to clean up needed at worst. The horn and face would probably only need a light grind.
Some of the big aerospace firms like Howmet can cast up to 10,000# pours, and in exotic alloys so getting the desired size and alloy would not be a challange.
Again the deciding factor would be the cost to cast and finish for each process.
Me, I like my 125# Trenton, and would love to have a 250-350# Trenton, but since I have a powerhammer, I don't HAVE to have the bigger anvil.

ptree - Sunday, 08/22/10 13:45:44 EDT

good afternoon all-
After making knives on and off for the past 36 years, friends and customers have convinced me to try my hand at forging some blades. Some of these will be for the Bushcraft followers. Keeping mind I'm no expert, I've gone and purchased a used anvil, a few hardies, hammers and a blacksmith vise. Still need to make a forge... that's another project.
Question: this anvil is in reasonably good shape although I'm fairly certain it's an import. Weighs in at approx 100 lbs, 7/8" hardy hole, 1/2 round pintle hole- on one end of the base is marked "10"; on the other end is "41". If it does have a hard plate top, it's only 6mm thick.
I do have pics if anybody would like to see them. Any idea what I have gotten?

Richard - Sunday, 08/22/10 15:35:12 EDT

Richard, if the "10" is on the front foot and raised, it's most likely a Fisher. Cast iron with a steel face. They are very good anvils, generally speaking, but if the steel face is only 6mm thick it's probably been milled down. Fisher faces are usually 10 to 15mm thick when un-monkeyed-with.

Not to say it's not good now, just something to be aware of. As long as the rebound is still good and the face doesn't dent when lightly whacked with a properly dressed hammer, you've got a good one, whatever it is.

Alan-L - Sunday, 08/22/10 16:21:33 EDT

That 6mm plate is bothersome. The only cast and plated anvils I've seen with that thin a plate were old Star anvils a very cheaply made anvil.

Richard you may send me photos (click on my name) and we will see if we can help ID it.

- guru - Sunday, 08/22/10 16:26:46 EDT

Anvil Manufacturing: Ptree, like forging there are still setup costs for castings. Each anvil would need at a minimum a boarded pattern to the specific foundry's specification. These often cost thousands of dollars (last I saw quoted were $5,000 overseas - $20,000 for four sizes). a cost that could cut a LOT of flame cut parts.

One advantage to the fabbed anvil is that die or pattern cost does not exist and fixturing (if turning the horn) is a minuscule cost and one fixture can do many sizes. Other options for making the horn include casting in ductile material or forging and welding on.

For a small manufacturer this could be a considerable cost savings and let them manufacture a broad range of sizes without needing dies or patterns for every size anvil. That is why Peddinghaus reduced their product line. It was time to replace forging dies at considerable cost so instead of making six sets of dies they only made three. They HAD dropped production and almost ended manufacturing.

I agree that casting SHOULD be the way to go but I can't even get a foundry to talk reasonable terms for casting swage blocks (they often insist that the holes that were cast for over 100 years can't be done). .

- guru - Sunday, 08/22/10 17:02:55 EDT

Ahhh, but the lost wax method uses a almost anything pattern, build a rubber mold around it and then shoot the wax. No boarded patterns, less worries with draft, as the rubber mold can be split where needed. I would build up the wax, much like the old piled and forged wrought anvils.
Simple rubber molds, lots of wax and a casting that is very very smooth and accurate. Once the rubber molds are made, the "Set up" should be near nil.

The cost to set up the forging hammers once the dies are in hand is about 3 hours for two men. I did not figure trim dies for this as a tourch cut would be cheaper since the table and horn will need machining anyway.
There ain't no free rides.

And by the way, holes are not much challange at all for lost wax. The surface finish should greatly reduce the post casting abrasive work as well.

ptree - Sunday, 08/22/10 18:18:05 EDT

In lost wax you have the mold material and the calcining. . . Significant costs in large parts like anvils. Lots of small steel castings made by lost wax and centrifugal castings but I do not know of large ones. Large investments in iron are done using lost foam and greensand or vacuum bonded sand.

Lost foam is used for both one offs and production casting in iron and steel but is a problem in low and medium production. One offs are individually carved in foam. We had a couple 15,000 pound and 9,000 pound castings that were pretty complicated made this way. A lot cheaper than making permanent patterns and huge core boxes. In high production the foam parts are made in expensive metal molds or dies using pellet and steam injection. Very expensive to setup. But makes very clean smooth and complicated castings. Besides one offs being relatively expensive investments, lost foam of this type does not make very smooth castings. There is no good way to fill the rough surface of the foam so there is a limit to how smooth the casting can be. It also makes repairing the hand carved investments difficult so they must be as perfect as possible without fill. This level of quality control is difficult to maintain even in low production.

- guru - Sunday, 08/22/10 20:50:38 EDT

I made a wakizashi and carrying rig for it in a day for a Zombie Apocalypse 1 Day Junkyard Challenge Knife in the Hat over on PaleoPlanet. Besides being excited about the waki and its saya, I'm fairly thrilled to finally have some video up on Youtube. I already posted the other two with me doing some water bottle cutting tests. Here is the final video, showing up close the construction of the blade, handle, and carrying rig: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MaG7fQeDQPY

- Stormcrow - Sunday, 08/22/10 21:23:56 EDT

Stormcrow
Keep up the forging, but it is time to let go of the weird science fiction stuff.

- Metal Media - Sunday, 08/22/10 23:24:04 EDT

Guru, I forget, was the machined horn on your anvil design an integral piece or was it to be welded on after turning?

- merl - Sunday, 08/22/10 23:48:55 EDT

Much Better video than the others which had too much background noise (the bane of filmmakers).

- guru - Monday, 08/23/10 00:17:24 EDT

Turned Horn: In my two piece German anvil design the horn is machined integral with the top section. In my large "classic" block anvil both horns are welded on pieces with 100% penetration (as a result of some tricky weld preps).

To reduce the amount of chip making the horns are flame cut octagon. When laying out blanks the heal and horn on integral types are nested. This reduces the flame cutting waste by 50% and blank losses by as much.

Clean machine cut octagon pyramids can also be hand ground round. Its actually not much more work than dressing some rough cast or poor;y shaped horns. In super low production these could be hand ground and finished.

- guru - Monday, 08/23/10 00:44:37 EDT

Stormcrow,
I watched it & very impressed with the first hits on the coke-bottle & water-jugs too.
( I'd be a little nervous being the camera-man with the other swings on the milk jugs, though.....sorry. )

Nice-job.

danial - Monday, 08/23/10 01:03:21 EDT

I was wundering if it's a "stupid" question to ask if an idea was good or not through a picture drawn on my computer. I might also add that I have no expiriense in makeing swords or any other art exept for a little wood work that i started a little while ago.

Lamonte Dole - Monday, 08/23/10 05:00:46 EDT

Lomonte, It might be or not. I've had wonderful dimensioned CAD drawings sent to me of a huge anime sword that would weight 800 pounds if made of aluminum. . . and the author still couldn't understand why it wouldn't work even after seeing the detailed math. Gee, if a cartoon character can wield it why can't an average teenager?

Just because it can be drawn doesn't mean its possible. Email the image to me as a JPEG and we can discuss it off line.

illusion illustration

- guru - Monday, 08/23/10 05:17:12 EDT

ok will do. just to let you know though it was thought of while i was thinking of working on forging a desighn with thin mettal, hammering came to mind, and chopping wood or clearing things away.

Lamonte Dole - Monday, 08/23/10 05:21:49 EDT

Guru, lost wax investment casting as an industrial practice has advanced greatly. In the aerospace industry, especially turbines the lost wax casting are made in production quantity. The waxes are moved throught the slurry and fluidized beds of investment by robot. large castings are being made in all sorts or alloy.
I have seen photos of the frame for large turbines that had been investment cast.

ptree - Monday, 08/23/10 07:19:22 EDT

So this years Grange Fair was nice, got a couple blue ribbons (one for my figs, the other for welded sculpture). I've been attending these Grange fairs for about 8 years now and never saw a smith. This year there was a small smithy set up and I got to meet the smith who was setting up for demos under his EZ up hoping to have the rainclouds pass over. The first thing I noticed was his anvil, I just HAD to check the makers mark. The diamond shaped mark was a dead giveaway to a Trenton, but upon closer examination the word TRENTON was upside down! Serial number and weight was stamped in the front foot, but the upside down logo was a mystery to him as well as me. We chatted for a while about anvils, smithing, the difficulty of forge welding, etc. I wish I took a picture of his setup, really inventive method of having a post vise become potable. It was attached to a thick log on wheels. The top of the log had the vise attached with the log cut out at the bottom for the leg. I told him I frequent Anvilfire.com!, he said he knows of it. Cool guy, Ivan Raupp is his name. I like the interaction with other smiths. We speak a secret language that mystifies people.

- Nippulini - Monday, 08/23/10 08:32:27 EDT

sorry... post vise become PORTABLE, not potable.... although I'd enjoy watching someone try to drink a post vise.

- Nippulini - Monday, 08/23/10 08:33:50 EDT

Just sounds like you've been drinking your vices. . . ;)

Trenton had some trouble with its logos. A common error that was apparently in the large logo stanp was Trenton spelled TREXTON. It is unknown if this was on purpose for some reason such as marking seconds of just a screw up. It is hard to believe it was a mistake because thousands were made that way. Upside down is EASY to believe. Someone held the punch wrong and once struck it was too late. If you ever try using hand stamps you will find it is very easy to do even when paying close attention.

- guru - Monday, 08/23/10 10:17:59 EDT

I have an anvil. It is a low and heavy one. Evidence suggests that it originates from Sweden. There is a marking that looks like the coat of arms of Sigtuna, a Swedish town. On the other side, it reads "1121." That number can't be a year number. It must be a serial number.
But that's not my problem. My problem is that a corner piece of the top hard work surface is missing. Someone has pounded on it so hard that it just broke.
I'd like to know if anyone has encountered this problem before and if it can be fixed, then how?
A picture: http://www.upload.ee/image/761757/katkine_pind.JPG
Raul, Estonia

Raul - Monday, 08/23/10 12:22:17 EDT

Someone, a little while back posted wondering why Nucor or a similar steel company couldn't set up to pour anvils. For one thing - the steel mills are set up to be mills, not foundries. A fairly typical size EAF produces a 200 ton heat of steel that is continuously cast into either a slab or more than 1 billet - typical casting time for a heat is around 1 hour. To cast that 200 ton heat into 200 lb anvils would produce 2000 anvils and would require that the ladle be moved and shut-off to fill each 200 lb anvil. You won't get that done within the time needed to keep the steel molten. The other option would be a complicated cope and drag set-up with many sprues where you'd loose a lot of the metal to that rather than to producing anvils. Even when we (the US) were predominantly making ingots rather than continuous cast steel, the number of ingots per 200 to 250 ton heat was relatively small - for flat rolled, 10 to 15 ingots for billet or pipe end use maybe 25 from a 250 ton heat.
From numbers, you'd be better off dealing with a small manufacturer running an induction furnace to produce specialy heats - my current employer runs both a 4 and a 5 ton induction furnace which can be coupled with vacuum degas. We also run a baby induction furnace with direct pour that will melt 800 lbs. Production includes master alloys for the foundry industry and forging grade ingots. You could conceivably get some anvils cast without going into really high costs. Of course, you'd still need to have them machined and heat treated, which would probably double your cost from just the castings.

- Gavainh - Monday, 08/23/10 13:23:53 EDT

Gavainh

You just gave me an idea. If anvils were poured, give the buyers the choice of a machined and finished anvil or a rough casting. If someone wants to save money, they can machine it and heat treat it themselves.

Mike T. - Monday, 08/23/10 13:54:14 EDT

Guru,

I wonder if an individual could purchase a baby induction furnace you mentioned ?

Mike T. - Monday, 08/23/10 14:01:19 EDT

Thin Face---Id bet more on it's being a vulcan than a fisher!

Raul; if the body of the anvil is wrought iron or mild steel then that face could be built up by arc welding; however as we have been recently discussing it may cost more in time, electricity and consumables than buying another anvil the same size in better condition. If you try to weld it up make sure you have the right pre-heat and the correct rods as most welders guess wrong about what to use.

Casting New Anvils: Jymm Hoffman had a small run of colonial styled anvils cast recently (in the last couple of years) in H13 IIRC. You may want to ask him about the costs! They came out very nicely indeed but were quite expensive.

Buying your own induction furnace: you got 440V 3 phase (or greater!) service and can pay say $100000 a year electric bulls? Is your workshop zoned for heavy industrial? If so sure you can buy an induction furance that sized! Why I bet you could make anvils and sell them for $5000 a piece!

Thomas

Thomas P - Monday, 08/23/10 16:07:36 EDT

A "baby" induction furnace, as Thomas says, is going to run easily well over $100,0000, and then cost quite a bit to operate- and, to get usable results from it, it would help to employ somebody like Gavain to supervise the heats- Steel is not like butter, where you melt it, pour it, and get the same butter you started with, in a different shape.
Steel must be monitored, and the chemistry adjusted, during the melting and foundry process- this requires a lot of expensive equipment, and experienced professionals.

And I cant imagine you would save any money trying to machine and heat treat an anvil yourself- both processes require big expenditures on equipment, or paying for expensive shops to do it, and both categories of shops will charge significantly more to do one anvil than to do ten at a time.

We already know what it costs to make a cast steel anvil in america, of high quality, appropriate alloy steel, machine it, and heat treat it- $1650. Thats what Jim Garrett is getting now for a 260Lb Nimba Centurion.
Jim is not getting rich doing this- his profit, if there is any, beyond paying himself for his time, is small. He is already doing things as cheaply and efficiently as he can, in batch sizes that the can sell.

There is not any room for lowering that price, I would guess, if you want to keep the production in the USA.

Steve McGrew is having his Rhino Anvils cast in China- similar batch sizes, similar alloys and processes, and his equivalent sized anvil retails for $950.
So there is your offshore price differential.

None of these anvils are ductile iron- all 4 of the USA brands I am currently aware of- Nimba, Rathole, Rhino, and TFS, are all cast steel.

- Ries - Monday, 08/23/10 16:30:40 EDT

Hi.
I'm a beginning blacksmith.
I recently inherited my great-grandfather's anvil. It's been badly abused, but still has a very good rebound and a decent-enough working surface. I have a couple of questions about it.
First, I would like to identify the anvil if possible. I have no idea where or when it was purchased, or even whether my great-grandfather got it new.
Photos are at http://www.docsbox.net/Anvil

Second, I know that it has been resurfaced with 7018 rod. You can see the bead at the table's edges. Should I leave it alone, clean it up and have it hard-surfaced, or take it down to original metal and have it resurfaced from scratch?

Thanks for your attention,
Doc Shipley

Doc Shipley - Monday, 08/23/10 16:56:55 EDT

Ries, We have letters from the manufacturers and have published the information relative to ductile iron anvils (TFS, JHM, NC. . .). All the makers of farriers anvils use a "special proprietary" grade of ductile iron and heat treat it. Nimba and Rathole are steel.

- guru - Monday, 08/23/10 17:24:09 EDT

When it rains, it pours

- Nippulini - Monday, 08/23/10 17:25:09 EDT

Doc, I can't tell from the photos exactly what is going on with your anvil. It does not appear to be in bad enough shape to have warranted welding. Perhaps a little grinding. E7018 is not the rod for welding anvil faces. Its too soft.

I would clean it up a little with a grinder and use it.

See the discussion from the past few days about refacing anvils.

- guru - Monday, 08/23/10 17:31:38 EDT

Anvil - katkine_pind: Great OLD anvil. The face this anvil is not broken so much as worn out. Then the thin part of the plate loosen at the weld and broke off. The hot iron oxide scale is very abrasive and wears down the face of an anvil. That is why a well used anvil is always bright and shiny. When steel plates wear too thin the wrought under it lets the steel plate flex too much and the weld fails.

To repair this anvil the loose parts of the face will need to be removed. Then the area over the body welded with a build up rod (as recommended by the hard facing rod manufacturer). The wrought base will be difficult to weld as the slag in the wrought melts and mixes with the flux making a very fluid flux/slag mix that often carries weld bead metal with it. There is NO equivalent to arc welding wrought iron. After the surface is covered and clean then the hard facing will need to be applied over the build up area and at least half the face from the looks of it to level it. This will need to be cleaned up and ground down until there is no porosity then another couple layers of hard facing applied over the entire face.

Even as expensive as new anvils are this repair will cost nearly as much or more than a new anvil. Note that a LOT of grinding is required to clean up between each welding pass and the abrassives (wheels, disks, burrs) will cost as much or more than the specialty welding rod.

As noted above, if you are not an experianced welder this is not a project to try to learn on.

- guru - Monday, 08/23/10 17:45:37 EDT

It is interesting that as soon as a beginning smith gets his first anvil, they forget about casting or fabricating on and get doing what smiths do: heat it and beat it. Forget about melting your own steel and casting anvils. Unless you are a degreed metallurgist, you have no idea what it really takes to make and pour steel. OK, conceding to a few rare individuals who are not metallurgists but have read enough to know better.

quenchcrack - Monday, 08/23/10 20:38:20 EDT

Am I tuned into "anvilmaking/repairing.com"?

Carver Jake - Monday, 08/23/10 22:46:38 EDT

Quenchcrack,

Good to see you posting again !! Well, even if no one ever pours an anvil, I think throwing ideas back and forth is good. Someone might take an idea here and another one there and put them together and perhaps create something. :)

Mike T. - Monday, 08/23/10 22:54:02 EDT

Metal Media - What weird science fiction stuff? Zombies are mainstream social commentary, standing in for any number of problems or perceived problems. Everyone knows that!

Danial - I was fine on the swings. I have a lot of time behind bladed tools (not swords, but axes, machetes, billhooks, etc.). I wasn't about to lose control of it.

guru - These weren't bad for a little digital camera, hey? The sirens in the background didn't help, certainly. I have a few short videos of the press in action that'll be next. I'll let you know when they're up.

And eventually, video of me forging swords on a homemade power hammer. ;-)

- Stormcrow - Monday, 08/23/10 23:03:05 EDT

Stormcrow, I don't want to argue with a guy who can make a knife and swing it like that. Must be a generational thing on zombies that I don't understand or maybe your from a geographic local where people think differently than what we consider normal...grin...all is good...

- Metal Media - Tuesday, 08/24/10 00:30:55 EDT

stormcrow, Zombie malarkie is all new age hokis pokis voodoo occult marching around as a zombie...no thanks would I want to be in that weird stuff. Youth of today need some better ways to organize or should strap on a gun and join a war and see real dead bodies. I doubt then they would want to parade like one.

- Metal Media - Tuesday, 08/24/10 00:40:13 EDT

Guru,

Thanks for the reply. I've been doing exactly as you suggest - cleaning up the face a little here and there, mostly just using it.

More than anything else, I'm curious what brand it is and how old it is. Like I said, it's been in my family for four generations already, so I'd like to learn what I can about it.

Quenchcrack - my mother used this anvil as a garden ornament for 25 years. I've lusted after it since I made my first hammered silver bracelet, way too many years ago.

Doc Shipley - Tuesday, 08/24/10 01:35:43 EDT

Dear Guru,
I am a medieval armor collector. I want a certain type of helmet but I cannot find it on any internet stores. Someone said I should get the helmet custom-made by a blacksmith. I have tried contacting several blacksmiths but those that have replied said that they don't work in armor and they don't know anybody that does. Do you know of any blacksmiths who have experience in making armor? If so, please forward their contact information to me. Thank you.

-Skriletz

Skriletz - Tuesday, 08/24/10 03:03:40 EDT

Metal Media - Nah, they think I'm weird around here too.

Actually, zombie movies as their semi-current role of social commentary began in the late '60s with Night of the Living Dead, which from what I understand was never intended to have any kind of commentary and only accidentally stumbled upon it. Both then and now have plenty of young folks strapping on guns, going to war, and seeing dead bodies.

I fail to see your point. The k.i.t.h. was an interesting mental exercise in what can be done in a short time frame with minimal resources. Does it matter whether it involved zombies pinning you down in a junkyard or the Comanches pinning you down inside a fort?

By the way, there was a grin after the "Everyone knows that!" Didn't type it in, but it was there.

- Stormcrow - Tuesday, 08/24/10 03:11:37 EDT

Thanks for the answer, guru.
Sad to hear that the cost can be so high. But I have the necessary grinding tools to repair it so the abrasives and welding wouldn't be a problem.
I have been thinking of selling it as an antique but I don't know how much I would get for it in Estonia. A new one is over 300$ so if I got more, then I would be happy to sell it. But it is broken and that lowers it's value.

Raul - Tuesday, 08/24/10 03:31:17 EDT

I can't stop thinking of blacksmithing lately so I came up with an idea after reading iForge's descriptions of welding. With welding there is a problem with loosing heat to the anvil. So I came up with a solution: a pre-heated anvil. It is made up from a tractor's half cylinder, a pipe, two u-bars and bolts. Here are the plans: http://www.upload.ee/image/763690/scan0001.jpg
The pipe would be leading hot air from my forge chimney through under the anvil. The cylinder is hard enough to work on and there is a hole which I can use for hardies.
Is the heat from my forge chimney enough to heat the anvil to 700 F?

Raul - Tuesday, 08/24/10 08:18:46 EDT

Ive got a couple videos of a sword desighn that I made.
Now I dont know if ths sword was thought of and made befor i thought of it and i dont really care if im the first and someone else makes it for themself i just want to get peoples oppinions on it so here is a link to all four videos.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5aMSc0VkCnM -Part 1 which shows the end result also of me making it with a "computer program"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0imPYUnzz40 -part 2

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8Fk4FjemUg -part 3

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5pgcc96DW7k -part 4

Also this sword is only supposed to be the length of your forarm so pretty short tool.

Lamonte Dole - Tuesday, 08/24/10 08:26:24 EDT

Preheated Anvil: Raul, The idea has merit but there are other problems.

1) A good anvil working surface is hardened steel (and everything that entails - carbon content, heat treating. . operating temperature range). They are not made of cast iron. While warn to uncomfortably hot is good, temperatures above 350°F (177°C) may permanently soften the anvil depending on the alloy it is made of (most anvils).

2) An anvil needs significant compact mass. Generally that means very solid without thin areas where the heaviest work is done. There HAVE BEEN hollow anvils but they have not been well received because of the loss of mass where it is most important. Many bladesmiths are using tall cylindrical anvils because this puts the maximum mass under the hammer.

There is a much simpler solution. Many smith learn the technique of lifting the work slightly off the anvil's surface between blows, thus reducing the heat loss.

Also, while cooling is a bit bothersome it is often a necessary part of ironworking. Long heats are not good because the steel will act like a wet noodle AND a smith cannot expend but so much energy at one time. They are great for bending to a long form but not forging. Short heats can be worked sufficiently in the available time and then the next area worked.

There are many things in ironworking that are a balance. Too hot a fire will burn up the metal or melt it so carbon based fuels with air are nearly perfect. A human cannot expend but so much energy so heat loss it not as bad as it seems.

Anvils DO get hot with use. A few hours into a busy forging day and you do not want to lean or sit on the anvil. It will be quite uncomfortably hot. This is the time of day to do light work or make welds. Under extremely heavy use you actually need to COOL the anvil to prevent losing hardness. Balance!

To be more productive smiths put more than one piece in the fire. Two pieces will keep you very busy. Three pieces can be hard to manage, especially in a coal or charcoal forge. The odds of burning one up is VERY high and thus the old saying "Too many iron in the fire".

When more pieces are to be heated it is usually done in a gas forge or oil furnace where the temperature is less likely to burn up the work. At this point the smith also needs a power hammer to forge all that steel. Between the two the smith will have ALL he can keep up with. More irons in the fire = need power forging machine. Balance!

You guys need to get out and forge something.

- guru - Tuesday, 08/24/10 09:06:31 EDT

Armour: -Skriletz, I will send your contact information to an armourer that specializes in helms and see if he is interested.

Armorers are specialists and within armourer's there are more specialties. Some make plate armour, some swords, some guns and others SCA mock battle armour. Purists raise helms from a single piece of plate. It is very technical and labor intensive. Others shape pieces and weld them together finishing the welds so they don't show. This is fine for mock battle and wall hangers. Some make entire suits of armour and others specialize in parts.

"Blacksmiths" are generally not Armourers, nor or they Farriers or Wheelwrights. The belief that "blacksmiths" did it all is from the time of frontier blacksmiths who DID try to do it all. But most stopped short of armour.

- guru - Tuesday, 08/24/10 09:42:33 EDT

All, sorry if my reply on steel casting was a bit terse; I just had gall bladder surgery. I am certainly not trying to stifle anyone from trying to make steel but making steel is quite different from making iron. There is a considerable learning curve and investment in equipment. Like they say, "if it was easy, everyone would do it".

quenchcrack - Tuesday, 08/24/10 09:51:20 EDT

Raul, the anvil isn't going to be the only thing that gets really hot. You have to work right next to it. Just get busy and keep hot iron moving across the anvil face and it will warm up nicely. If you can sit on your anvil at the end of the day, you haven't been working hard enough!

quenchcrack - Tuesday, 08/24/10 09:55:31 EDT

Stormcrow, All is good and keep forging your knives.

- Metal Media - Tuesday, 08/24/10 09:58:56 EDT

Skriletz, try this guy: www.doorcountyforgeworks.com
His name is Rick Furrer and he is a master armourer and sword smith.
However, he is not cheap...

- merl - Tuesday, 08/24/10 10:14:40 EDT

Metal Media - Will do. :-)

- Stormcrow - Tuesday, 08/24/10 10:52:33 EDT

re: Quality control while making steel. We check chemistry and adjust throughout the heat with alloy additions to make certain we hit the ordered chemistry. Equipment used includes Leco Carbon/sulfur analyzers - we're purchasing a new one this year to replace a worn-out unit. The price is about $65,000. A new Leco oxygen/nitrogen analyzer runs about the same amount. We're also looking at replacing our current x-ray spectrometer with a new Panalytical x-ray. The price for that will be about $300,000. I'm not certain what the little 800 lb furnace cost, but to purchase new with required utilities would not be cheap, and yes Thomas is correct, 3 phase power supply. Heck the oscillator for the induction furnace we use to melt lab samples to analyze powder which melts 50 grams at a time costs about $1250 and is replaced every 12 to 18 months. Having worked in "big integrated steel" I'm a little biased - first company I worked at in 1974 ran 250 ton BOF's, 2 of them each producing about 1 heat an hour. Some of the steel companies ran 400 ton EAF's, so a 5 ton or 800 lb furnace though ideal for high end low volume alloys is minuscule in comparison. They're also good for someone who doen't need 200 tons of H13 tool steel for their foundry.

- Gavainh - Tuesday, 08/24/10 13:31:16 EDT

To be clear: I'm not a total newbie.
I have worked steel before on that same cylinder so I know that it becomes hot.
The cylinder comes from a tractor's diesel engine so it's used to high temperatures over long periods of time. The hardness doesn't seem to be a problem.
And I plan to have only 1 use for it: welding laminated steel for small knife blades so it doesn't get a lot of heavy pounding.
These are the things I know for sure. The only thing I want to know is if the air is hot enough.
Thank you for your mind effort and sorry if I wasn't clear enough before. But if I finish this project and it is successful and useful, I will share my experience with those who are interested.

Raul - Tuesday, 08/24/10 13:45:50 EDT

I was just given an anvil that has 1805 stamped on it (weighs 250 lbs). Appears to have the word starting with a "T" on it - could be Trenton, Triton. Any thoughts?

- J Ford - Tuesday, 08/24/10 13:46:17 EDT

Skriletz, www.armourarchive.org is a series of forums dedicated to armour making.

Folks who participate range from new to highly trained professionals---Ugo does Negroli quality work!---and can refer you to an armourer who has experience in making pretty much anything traditional to fantasy (guinea pig armour anyone?).

Thomas

Thomas P - Tuesday, 08/24/10 13:55:24 EDT

Quenchcrack; I had my gallbladder taken out in emergency surgery when I was 28. Life was much better afterwards even if I had the oldschool surgery and have about a 9" scar to show for it---I tell folks it was from my seppuku training, or my cesarean....

Get better soon Quad-State is coming *fast*!

Thomas

Thomas P - Tuesday, 08/24/10 13:57:48 EDT

As QC pointed out melting cast iron is a completely different animal. A small cupola can be built for a few hundred dollars (if you scrounge parts and materials) and will melt 50 to 100 pounds of iron an hour once hot. You toss in fuel, iron, flux, more fuel, more iron, more flux and continue as the melt progresses to the pouring level. Then you poke a hole in the tap plug and duck as the iron pours out. . . Starting with good iron and with a little practice you can get some fairly decent grey iron.

Fuel (foundry coke) is a significant expense and you need cast iron scrap. You can use steel but the character of the resulting cast iron is different.

The hard part is as noted far above, sand molds, iron handling, safety equipment and HELPERS. Actually a place to setup, followed by helpers. But its not a task to be taken lightly. Lots can go wrong and if you think spilled water is hard to control just think about spilled white hot metal. Its not something you want to let get out of control.

- guru - Tuesday, 08/24/10 14:03:05 EDT

Anvil ID: J. Ford, That is not much to go on. There have been hundreds, maybe a thousand anvil manufacturers world wide, not all of whom are known.

Dates are more often stamped on by owners than by manufacturers of English or American anvils. French makers often stamped names, dates and decorations into the sides of anvils but you rarely find these in the U.S. I could go out and stamp 1776 on any anvil in the shop and it would not mean a thing. Many anvils had serial numbers stamped on them and these can be confused with a date. Many with nothing else had the weight and that too can be confused with a date.

In 1805 most anvils generally did not have makers names stamped on them. Another indication is shape and style. At this time anvils had very small hardy (square) holes and no pritichel (round hole). However, you occasionally find early anvils that have had the pritchel hole added.

To identify most anvils you start with a light cleaning to remove rust, paint and detritus from the sides where the marking would be. Wire brushing by hand or with a fine power wire brush works well.

Then if the lettering is still difficult to see try taking a rubbing. This is done with heavy tissue or light tracing paper and the side of a pencil or charcoal. This will often bring things out that the eye cannot see.

It is common for the eye to try to complete partial letters. It is tough to avoid but you need to try not imagine what is not there.

To get someone to help with the ID good 3/4 view photos taken in good light that show the various shape details are necessary. A couple good overall views are more important than individual details.

Mail me the photos and/or a scan of the rubbing if something shows up and we will see what we will see.

- guru - Tuesday, 08/24/10 15:16:12 EDT

Anvil ID II: While our collection is far from complete try our Anvil Gallery.

- guru - Tuesday, 08/24/10 15:39:27 EDT

Guru - typo in your URL for the anvil gallery.

- Buford Heliotrope - Tuesday, 08/24/10 16:08:58 EDT

Whoops. . FIXED!

- guru - Tuesday, 08/24/10 17:12:24 EDT

Want to make iron? Go here: www.darkcompany.ca/iron/index.php

The Canadians got it down pat......

quenchcrack - Tuesday, 08/24/10 18:10:17 EDT

Thomas, they did mine laporoscopically. They put you to sleep, inflate your body like a Macy's Christmas Parade Balloon, stick a couple of tools into your stomach cavity and yank the offending organ out. Then they leave you to try to figure out why your pants don't fit. I was in the hospital from 7:30 AM to 1:30 PM, then went home. With tight pants.

quenchcrack - Tuesday, 08/24/10 19:52:52 EDT

Quenchcrack the folks I used to help doing scandanavian short stack bloomery runs had over 10 years of experiments in before that group even started! They actually presented at the IronMaster's conference in 2002 with "10 years of Experiments with Scandanavian short stack bloomeries."

They are still active and closing on 20 years of work with bloomeries!

Heal Fast Quad-State is coming!

Thomas

Thomas P - Tuesday, 08/24/10 20:24:45 EDT

Smelting and Casting are vastly different.

There are a bunch of folks doing both these days. Historical smelters are going for wrought iron or direct process steel. Backyard foundry types cast mostly aluminium but many do bronze and cast iron.

A friend of mine was involved in a WI smelt this past weekend and they produced something like a 30 pound WI "bloom". Very solid needing little compacting. While it is still VERY expensive material it shows that the once lost technology is now understood and being recorded for posterity.

Doing your own casting has some tremendous advantages for the hobby tool and machinery builder. Casting greatly reduces the necessary machining of parts and lets you make some otherwise difficult to make parts. Great if you are into bootstrapping your own machinery.

- guru - Tuesday, 08/24/10 23:42:12 EDT

Making your own iron starting with mud, straw, ore and charcoal can be a lot of fun; but was not the norm for a smith even early in the iron age---iron was traded all over from the beginning---cf iron currency bars.

And of course the obligatory exception: some norse homesteads in remote areas did smelt iron for their own use in the smithy. (covers the New Foundland case too!)

Thomas

Thomas P - Wednesday, 08/25/10 12:24:18 EDT

As in business everything is location, location, location. Not everyone has iron ore in their back yard.

It is like a lot of the questions we get about making your own refractories. IF you live in the right place there are natural high alumina clays that IF you can fire them hot enough will make refractory (high temperature resistant) bricks. But these places are far and few between AND you have to know what you are looking for as well as how to mix the clay with things like saw dust that burn out making the brick more porous and less likely to crack as moisture turns to steam in damp brick being heated.

Even small commercial iron making operations were carefully located where there was water power, fuel and flux as well as the ore. Water power often meant cheap transportation of materials as well.

If every natural resource was in everyone's backyard we would all be rich, or very poor. . .

- guru - Wednesday, 08/25/10 14:03:02 EDT

Thomas,
Was there a standard size/shape to the iron currency bars?

JimG - Wednesday, 08/25/10 15:05:34 EDT

The Gingery series of books shows how to make your own machine shop. It starts with casting and the proceeds to make machines using the machine you just built. I've got a few of the books and as soon as I get a round tuit I'm going to build me a machine shop.

It does look like fun, but that round tuit is so evasive.

- Marc - Wednesday, 08/25/10 16:29:14 EDT

They look like crudely forged swords: google currency iron bars; www.gallica.co.uk/celts/currency_bars.htm has a nice picture of some.

Thomas

Thomas P - Wednesday, 08/25/10 16:53:12 EDT

Thomas, goes to show what a little publicity will do. How would our group contact the group you mentioned?

quenchcrack - Wednesday, 08/25/10 17:06:58 EDT

I have an old anvil approx. 180+lbs that I showed pictures of to a blacksmith. No name, wrought iron, a hardy hole aprox. 3/4", no pritchel, a short horn, and no cutting table. It has a 45 degree bevel down 2/3rds of one side about an inch across that he thought might be ground but I believe it was forged that way. He believes it is old enough to be colonial. If it belongs in a museum or someones collection...good. I would like a 200lb Peter Wright or Hay-Budden or something hard and flat of this quality. It still makes a good knive blade, but I don't like hitting history if that is what it is.

S K SMITH - Wednesday, 08/25/10 20:26:58 EDT

SK Smith, email photos to me and I will try to identify it. Colonial English anvils vary a lot but all have a certain look. The sloping side may have been ground as a repair OR to make it similar to a German style anvil. But it could also be European rather than English.

See Old German Anvil

- guru - Wednesday, 08/25/10 20:35:19 EDT

I am filling in at my job for the tool and die tech that quit. I have about 15 years experience on cnc mills. I am doing ok so far fixing things for people, but i built a die to square the corners on a coupler. It is a 3"x3.5x2" block of tool steel base and i made a piece of 1018 to bolt to the tool steel that will be doing all the work. I need to harden the 1018, but i'm not sure exactly how to go about it. I have at my disposal a small furnace i think it's called a thermodyne. I am not sure where to find info about how long to and at what degree to heat the 1018 and quenching and then can i temper it back to make it tough or not? I have some conflicting info from the internet that says 1018 doesn't have enough carbon to temper and all you can do is case harden.
I am also stumped on the procedure. When i harden do i need to wrap it in stainless steel i also have that at my disposal. When i get done hardening and quenching do i need to let cool then temper and for how long on each process. I'm ready to try it but don't wish to redo my work if at all possible and would like to do it the best the first time. I don't have a lot of knowledge about metallurgy other than what i've learned in the past two weeks from the internet. please help

Paul in Iowa - Wednesday, 08/25/10 21:24:15 EDT

Paul, SAE 1018 is "mild steel" and generally not considered hardenable. It CAN be hardened somewhat by overheating and quenching in a severe quenchant (ice cold water or super quench). Hardening temperature for this steel is about 1500°F.

Stainless foil is to prevent oxidation BUT with mild steel you are going to need to unwrap and quench the steel VERY fast and may not make it in time. As noted, this is NOT considered a hardenable steel. Tempering is always recommended even for low hardening steels. A minimum of 350°F and probably no more on this steel. Again, there are no specs for this as it is not normally hardened.

Depending on the part the hardening should be done after machining and leaving a grinding allowance of .010 - .015 and then ground flat on a surface grinder to the final dimensions. This gets rid of heat treating scale and warp.

Normally in tool and die work if the part is to be hardened a material like A2 is used. This is an easy to heat treat air hardening steel. It would be wrapped in stainless foil, heated to about 1400°F (or per manufacturers specs), removed from the furnace and set on a rack with a fan blowing on it. I usually strip the foil with tongs as it sits on the rack. After cooling to well above room temperature the part is tempered at 400°F or more. This results in a tool hard enough for punch and die work. For less severe duty it would be tempered much hotter to increase toughness.

- guru - Wednesday, 08/25/10 21:52:13 EDT

thank you for the response. I am still confused on the amount of time to heat. I checked and the furnace has a thermolyne controller on it. Do i just let the furnace heat to 1400 then take the part out or is there a certain amount of time or colors i need to use as a guide and the same goes for tempering, for i also have A2 at my disposal and could remake the piece. Also is it right to make a block and then bolt a piece on that will be doing the work, and do both pieces need to be hardened for work being done in a break press?? or just the one piece doing the work thanks again

Paul in Iowa - Wednesday, 08/25/10 22:50:14 EDT

Paul, The type of steel necessary is determined by the type of work, quantity of parts to make and so on. Generally 1018 is too soft for press brake work.

Heating time is largely dependent on the part size. You want an even though heat. I think one hour per inch of thickness is recommended.

A2 is expensive steel as it is normally sold annealed in a ready to machine condition. Die work surfaces are commonly made of a hardenable tool steel such as this and bolted to holders of various sorts made from cast iron and mild steel. Holders may be heat treated if under bending stress and need to be very stiff. If they are in compression then hardening is not necessary.

The color method of tempering is for when you do not have temperature measuring equipment or temperature controlled furnaces.

Be warned that parts tend to grow a little when hardened. This means that bolt holes will be farther apart and if the holes are too tight on the bolts they will not align after hardening. Changing the holes after hardening is very difficult in hardened tool steel. They would have to ground with a die grinder or jig borer with grinding head. To avoid this a dowel is often used to hold parts in alignment and the bolt holes left a little sloppy (standard clearances usually work).

- guru - Wednesday, 08/25/10 23:08:36 EDT

Just a quick video of my hydraulic forging press that y'all helped me build: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WTsotqmEE0k

This is more of a preview than anything. It was taken not long after it was installed and I had hardly used it at that point. I'm still working on taking full advantage of its capabilities.

Thanks for y'all's help!

- Stormcrow - Thursday, 08/26/10 03:19:38 EDT

More on iron currency:

http://www.anythinganywhere.com/commerce/relic/africiron.htm

Interesting as this was a very common form of cash. How would you fit all that into a wallet?

- Nippulini - Thursday, 08/26/10 13:18:22 EDT

Quenchcrack; can you send me an e-mail and I can forward it to their mailing list. (weird-smiths@....)

TGN I once visited the international fleamarket at Santa Fe and they had a fellow selling African WI pieces with the ends forged way down to prove it was WI and not CI---wish I could afford his prices...

Thomas

Thomas P - Thursday, 08/26/10 13:43:37 EDT

When making tongs, have any of you ever put heat sinks on them ? Close to the hands.

Mike T. - Thursday, 08/26/10 14:40:55 EDT

Mike, never hear of it. Tongs get hot, you quench them. . . that is why tool steel tongs are a bad idea.

The only time tong reins get overheated is when the tongs are left clamped on a piece in the forge. This is a practice that should be avoided and in some shops is an absolute rule.

Heat sinks need surface area to get rid of heat. IF you had them on tongs and left them on the work they would work in reverse absorbing the heat from the forge and heating the reins even more.

A non-conductive coupling in the reins would do the most good. But high strength and non-heat conducting is an oxymoron in materials science.

Ah. . . water cooled tongs. . .? ;)

- guru - Thursday, 08/26/10 15:29:43 EDT

I forged a set of Ti tongs as they were light and do not conduct heat well.

Thomas

Thomas P - Thursday, 08/26/10 15:58:08 EDT

Thomas,
That sounds like a good idea !

Mike T. - Thursday, 08/26/10 20:01:12 EDT

Thomas, my default email system will not work with the Anvilfire method of clicking on your name. My email is quenchcrack at hot....mail.......dot.........com.

quenchcrack - Thursday, 08/26/10 20:54:33 EDT

This site has adobe plans to build an air hammer. Cost is 47.00 I believe the main part needed is a spool valve that shuttles air to one end of the cylinder while stopping air flow at the opposite end. An electric solenoid can be used
to move the spool valve or use a foot pedal. Doesn't seem complicated to me, just need to know how to do the original set up.
http://hubpages.com/hub/How-Do-I-Build-a-Power-Hammer

Mike T. - Thursday, 08/26/10 21:11:24 EDT

I also think the air pressure acts as a natural cushion to take the place of springs and linkages.

Mike T. - Thursday, 08/26/10 21:13:22 EDT

Paul: The 1018 press brake dies will probably make a few parts before they deform too much for accuracy, so You will get an idea if You have the right allowances for springback & other unexpected changes.

Press brake dies are usually in the 250-325 brinell hardness range, and made of cheaper material than A2, but A2 will work fine, just draw at 700f after hardening for increased toughness & greater safety from breaking.

- Dave Boyer - Thursday, 08/26/10 21:16:38 EDT

Mike: Most of the successfull air hammer designs use an air controled spool valve, and throttle the exhaust from the spool valve for power & speed control. Keeping the distance between the spool valve and the throttling valve to a minimum helps get crisp control.

The cylinder needs to have the cusion built in at the top of the stroke so it doesn't hammer itself apart.

- Dave Boyer - Thursday, 08/26/10 21:24:28 EDT

Paul in Iowa, as has been pointed out 1018 is generally too soft for press break work but if you need to make some tooling just to see if a certain design will work dimentionaly, then it will be fine but, may not hold up to even one cycle (be warned!)
If you really wanted to see if this certain design will work and cycle it once or twice before making it from the A2 you might get away with carburizing the 1018 die parts.
You would bring the finished parts (with minimum .005 per side grind stock) to a "cherry red" in the furnace and then cover it with a granulated product like Casin-it(sp?)and then back in the furnace for so many minuets (hours) per pound. If I remember it right this will get you .01 depth of 40-45Rc and can be done to a maximum of .04 but, don't quote me on that, it's been a long time since I've worked with it.
You should probably be making your tooling the other way around anyway. Make the working side from the tool steel and the part that loads into the tooling receiver slot on the press break should be 1018.
Again, as it was pointed out befor the job dictates the type of material to be used.
I'm supprised you don't have an engineer or someone like that there telling you what they want the tooling parts made from.

- merl - Thursday, 08/26/10 23:56:45 EDT

All right, got a better video up taking a look at the 3 work station 42.4 ton hydraulic forging press that you guys helped make. No footage of it running in this one, but a good look at the details of its construction and some of the tooling for it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zfchfqo11xw

- Stormcrow - Friday, 08/27/10 00:31:42 EDT

I want to put an I beam in my shop to use as a lifting beam. Where can I get information on the safe working loads of various sizes of beams of various unsupported lengths please?

Philip in China - Friday, 08/27/10 01:04:32 EDT

Philip,

Look in Machinery's Handbook for load charts for common sections. The governing factor is the allowable deflection under load.

- Buford Heliotrope - Friday, 08/27/10 01:31:16 EDT

Phillip, The maximum deflection of a beam under full load TIMES at least a 1.5 safety factor is about 1/4" at the center of the span or less. This in turn normally keeps the stress at or below 10,000 PSI.

I wrote a little program that runs in DOS that has the 1973 AISC steel database that will calculate simple deflection and stress. See below.

- guru - Friday, 08/27/10 08:28:38 EDT

Mass2 2.0b Install ZIP:

Mass and volume calculator with 1000 materials database. Calulate the volume weight and properties of cylinders, cones, spheres, pyramids, polygons, rectangulars, triangulars, ovoids, barrels, tori, fillet (spandrel), asymetric fillets, billet. . . Can be setup for numerous metric and English units for input. Browsable results with materials comparison fields.

Structural deflection and stress calculator with the full 1973 AISC structurals databases and full 1993 Mass2 pipe database. Files save as Mass2 data and Lotus 123.1a WKS files.

The above is the incomplete Beta version Mass2 project from the 1990's. There are a couple incomplete sections such as polyhedra. I put 5 years of my life into it only to be thwarted by Windows 3.1 and 4.0 which were disastrous operating systems which did not support DOS programs nearly as well as the later Win98 or Windows 2000. At the time Windirt did not have the database or programming tools to convert the Professional BASIC data to work . . . Programming an application of this sort is a team effort and I did not have the capital to continue. I do not know how late of OS's it will operate under by it does fine under Win 2000 and XP. The mouse support is buggy (worked perfect in DOS. . ). Use the function and arrow key controls. Press ENTER after entering variables not TAB.

Version 1.0 without the ASCII database sold for $69. Version 2 was twice the program and much superior even in the beta version above. If you find the above program useful please send us a donation.

The install was designed for DOS and may need some manual adjusting to setup under your OS. Normally you just need to extract the files into a folder called Mass2 and create a shortcut to the EXE file. There is a Mass2 Icon that will need to be manually selected for the shortcut.

The amazing thing about this program written in "inefficient" BASIC is that the full version of the program is only 271 KB and has 50,000 pieces of data in the various databases. We have hundreds of images on anvilfire larger than this. So much for progress.

- guru - Friday, 08/27/10 10:32:43 EDT

Beam Calculations with Mass2:

Most engineering calculations start with the load parameters and return theoretical cross section values to apply to various beams. You then search through the AISC Steel Construction Manual for beams that meet the criteria.

In Mass2 you enter the span and load, select the type of structural and then browse the list (arrow up and down) and watch the stress and deflection results change in the diagrams. When the deflection and stress are within your range then you may have a number of structurals to select from. Full dimensional and engineering parameters of each selection is shown. Its quick and easy letting you compare beams to what you may have on hand.

Step-by-step instructions:

Load Mass2
Press F3 or arrow over to the Functions menu.
Select 6. Structurals
Press F3 or arrow over to Parameters
Type in your length or span between supports. Press ENTER
Type in your load. Press ENTER, then ESC.
Press F2 and select the structural type (Wide Flange).
Arrow down through the list and watch the results for each beam selection change.

You can change structural type and browse those with the same parameters.

Note that only two cases are given. Both pin or hanger supported and distributed load and centered load. For hoists you use the centered load (Case 2). Also note that you can enter a span and no load and Case 1 will give you the deflection of the structural alone from its own weight.

As mentioned above for crane rails (and floor beams) you want to limit deflection to 1/4" and stress to 10,000 PSI at 1.5 times the rated load. If a trolley is to be used on the beam you may want to limit deflection a little more. If a beam deflects more than 1/4" in 8 to 10 feet the trolley and load will want to roll to the middle of the beam. This can be hazardous. So, defection is more important than stress BUT when deflection is limited the stress is usually at or below 10,000 PSI.

- guru - Friday, 08/27/10 11:21:52 EDT

Monorails: When I put up my dream shop I installed a 40 foot long monorail down the middle of the shop. It was supported by a 4 foot tall wooden bridge truss spanning perpendicular to the roof trusses. There were beam hangers every 6 feet centered on a truss. The trusses at these 6 foot increments were doubled and bolted together. I had rated this at 5 tons but it would take more.

The problem with attaching any load lifting device to a building is that (at least in the U.S) it has to be approved by a Professional (licensed) Engineer or you are in violation of building codes. In most cases doing what I did above would not be allowed. At the time I had some connections in the buildings inspection office and they approved my engineering . . .

I was recently in an auto shop with a common flat roof supported by light weight steel trusses about a foot in depth. In several places they had put heavy wood beams between the braces spanning two of the trusses. These in turn had chains looped over them. A common sight. While the chains looked huge the load to be lifted (auto and truck engines) was probably no more than 1,000 pounds and most likely around 400. IT still looked tweeky. . . A big difference from lifting tools and machinery in a blacksmith shop. I have a fabricated bench that weighs 1,300 pound and a weld platen that weighs 2,500 pounds. . . Even small machines and junkyard hammers start at 500 pounds and up (rapidly). AND THEN there are the times that you miss a strap or chain or something hangs and you are lifting the truck as well as the tool. . .

A key thing to remember is that if you have a two ton hoist, then whatever you attach it to should easily handle three tons or more.

- guru - Friday, 08/27/10 12:10:17 EDT

For loads of only a couple of hundred pounds I have seen a fellow use sliding barn door hardware.

I'd fear that I or a student would try to get away with a heavy load sometime. I try to engineer for my foibles!

QuenchCrack---mail sent.
Thomas

Thomas P - Friday, 08/27/10 13:05:32 EDT

And for lifting A.S.O.'s 100 pounds and under I use my...

..wait a minute. Wrong forum!

- Nippulini - Friday, 08/27/10 14:46:34 EDT

I am interested in starting to forge as a hobby. I am going to build the forge out of the brake drum from your plans here. My question is I need an anvil. I don't understand the light, med, heavy duty classes and what makes them up. I also don't want to put out alot of money until i see if it's something I enjoy. So I have gotten access to three materials one is a 3"x3" Steel Bilt about 2' long, a rail road track about 8" long, and rail road track about 4' long. What would be the best uses for these and how would they be rated for type of work?

Thanks,
Brian

Brian - Friday, 08/27/10 15:23:54 EDT

Brian, All of these would be rated light duty. Even by sinking the long piece of rail in the ground about 2 feet, which would give you a VERY substantial mass under the hammer the small work surface limits what you can do.

But. . the best thing to do is to try it and see. Note however that steel is stubborn to work especially if you have undersized tools. Keep the work small (3/8" bar or less) when working with these anvils.

- guru - Friday, 08/27/10 16:52:07 EDT

3"x3"x2' mounted vertically is approaching some of the knifemaking anvils that folks are using these days!

I use: Light 90-120# Medium 121-200# Heavy 200-400 and quite heavy indeed 401#+

Most hobby smiths do very well with a medium anvil AKA "shop anvil" but then again a lot will have a light anvil too for taking to demo's. For many years my 93# anvil had a lot more hours of smithing on it than my 500# anvil as at demos it got used all day long and at home there were always other things I should be doing.

Thomas

Thomas P - Friday, 08/27/10 17:45:18 EDT

Barn Door Track:
I have a section of this track with a small chain hoist that services 2 Bridgeport mills. This is NOT for heavy loads, but the ability to lower a part slowly and be sure there are no chips & dirt under it comes in handy.

- Dave Boyer - Friday, 08/27/10 21:22:30 EDT

we want to buy 20 - 40 shutter dogs. looking for curly S design. need to keep cost down -e.g. $10 per unit. what would you suggest? we are located in Toronto Canada.

ray - Saturday, 08/28/10 09:34:47 EDT

Ray, You won't get hand forged ones for that price. They will need to be simple stampings or LASER cut. The last ones I made back in the early 1980's sold for $25 each and were under priced then.

- guru - Saturday, 08/28/10 09:52:40 EDT

Ray,

For ten bucks U.S> you get these:

http://shutterhardware.com/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=1&products_id=3&zenid=cbdb166f61c49434141cfe93c8afee1b

Plastic...(sigh)

- Rich - Saturday, 08/28/10 10:04:39 EDT

I have a bunch of flat cut "S" blanks that Paw-Paw had made or picked up somewhere. They would need a spike or mounting bracket and finishing. Even making them the "cheep" way in steel would be $20 or so today.

- guru - Saturday, 08/28/10 12:56:04 EDT

www.houseofantiquehardware.com

I think this site would help with pricing.

Mike T. - Saturday, 08/28/10 17:45:19 EDT

Stormcrow- Your press looks awesome. Very Cool.

I have an old lathe with a missing tooth on the back gear. Is it feasible to braze a piece in and file it to shape? I think the gear is cast steel.
Thanks

- Josh S. - Saturday, 08/28/10 19:31:16 EDT

Josh, The back gears on most lathes are cast iron. It is possible to do what you suggest but the brazing will do nearly as much damage to other teeth and possibly the bearings as it repairs unless you are very good/careful.

Broken back gears are a common problem on old machine tools. It is most often caused by someone engaging the gears while something is rotating and the bull gear is still locked.

Another way to repair the back gear is to obtain a change gear the same size and machine it into a ring or ring and flange gear then machine the old back gear to match. The parts should be carefully trued prior to machining and snug fits used to keep the parts concentric. Then the two parts are drilled and taped in assembly and bolted together. This is easier done on the large end than the small. The small end would need a steel spur gear press fit and pinned in place. This job can be done on the lathe that needs the repair. . .

Most of these gears are available as change gears as they are straight 14.5° spur gears.

I've got a box of gears I bought 20 years ago to repair one of my drill press's back gears. . . It'll get done one day.

When my Dad gave me our then 30 year old Craftsman lathe it had broken back gears from someone abusing the lathe. Luckily they were still available new at the time. I think the complete gear set cost $150 at the time. Of course that was a third more than the entire lathe cost new in 1950.

- guru - Saturday, 08/28/10 20:20:45 EDT

Another gear tooth repair is to mill out a slot and fit a replacement tooth that is held in place by small socket head cap screws. The deeper the slot, providing there is enough material, the better. A slot at least 1/2 the tooth height would be sufficient.

- guru - Saturday, 08/28/10 20:26:21 EDT

I've used keystock stick welded with special cast iron electrodes. No preheat or post heat necessary, but I do it anyway. Of course this applies to medium/large square tooth.

- Nippulini - Saturday, 08/28/10 21:02:58 EDT

AND works if you are lucky, or the gear is ductile iron. . .

- guru - Saturday, 08/28/10 21:23:37 EDT

Gear Tooth Repair:
Another method is to drill & tap a row of holes where the tooth belongs and run bolts in that bind up in the bottom of the holes. Drill the first hole, tap & insert bolt then cut off to proper hight. Drill the next hole so the edge nearly intersects the first bolt, file a little to get the tap started. The row of bolts is then filed to the gear tooth shape. Red Locktight would be a good idea, but it wasn't around when the repairs I have seen were made.

- Dave Boyer - Saturday, 08/28/10 21:35:40 EDT

Three Flute Drills:

I was at an auction this week and bought quite a few taper shank drills. Most were standard two flute types but there were a couple of 3 and 4 flute drills as well. I am pretty sure the four flute models are core drills for drill holes which have been created by a core in a casting. They look much like reamers, but with spiral flutes. Does anyone know what the application of the 3 flute drills would be?

Patrick

Patrick Nowak - Sunday, 08/29/10 01:18:26 EDT

the 3 flute as I understand it is a compromise between a 2 flute and a 4 flute. in the case of a core drill where smaller amounts of material are being removed the more flutes excel in less grabbing, smoother finish and faster feeds.

- Ty Murch - Sunday, 08/29/10 13:33:32 EDT

- Chris - Sunday, 08/29/10 17:00:55 EDT

Three flute drills are very useful for opening out holes to a larger size. They do not chatter and grab in this application, unlike a two flute drill. We used to use them extensively in hand held drills to open out half inch holes that we had drilled to 5/8" on a regular basis and even to 7/8" and larger occasionly. For this purpose we used to put them in the lathe and turn the taper down to half an inch parallel so they fit in a standard Jacobs Chuck. That is an immensely useful purchase that you have made.They are a bit tricky to resharpen by hand but you can do it.

- Chris - Sunday, 08/29/10 17:01:33 EDT

I think I have asked this question before. What bits can you use in a table router and on a lathe to work brass and silver-nickle ? To make ferules, guards, spacers etc. for knives.

Mike T. - Monday, 08/30/10 00:16:33 EDT

Mike, not the same tools. Routers are designed for wood and turn 30 to 40,000 RPM and can only cut metal with the smallest cutters and they must be the proper grade of carbide and ground for the purpose. Tools for the lathe which commonly run at a top speed of a couple thousand RPM and usually much slower are generally the same as working steel except that for best performance the clearance angle for brass is greater than that for steel. Same for drill presses. See a machinists' handbook such as Machinery's Handbook for details.

Always remember that the required cutting speed is in Surface Speed per Time Unit such as Feet per Minute. The larger the tool, the faster the surface speed for a given RPM. Small tools can turn fast and large tools very slow. Same for lathe turning speeds. The larger the diameter of the work the slower it must turn.

- guru - Monday, 08/30/10 01:31:49 EDT

Well, I had e-mailed a company and asked them if end mills would work in my router...they said they would, but the end mills had to be aligned properly and the table bolted down tight to prevent vibrations. If there were any vibrations, the carbide end mills would break. I think everything is bolted down tight enough, and would wear safety goggles before trying. I would also not try it free handed, would press tight against the fence.

Mike T. - Monday, 08/30/10 06:40:22 EDT

Mike-T, I would suggest a face shield over the goggles, since exploding carbide tools send out shards that are glass sharp and they fly high great energy. The goggles will cover the eyes but what will cover your face/neck?

ptree - Monday, 08/30/10 07:22:42 EDT

How about getting a router speed controller? They're only about $20. It would reduce the torque, but you would at least have less energy in the event bits broke off.

- Marc - Monday, 08/30/10 08:32:22 EDT

Another kind of bit would be carbide burrs. They're made for high-speed devices and do a great job chewing up steel, so brass would be no problem. I would still slow it down as much as I could and still get results, though. Burrs throw out lots of small chips.

- Marc - Monday, 08/30/10 08:36:00 EDT

Ptree and Marc,
Thank you for the great ideas. I was thinking about a speed controller for the router. My lathe has a speed control on it, I guess most of them do. I do have some carbide burrs, I will try them,

Mike T. - Monday, 08/30/10 09:09:23 EDT

Always check the recommended speed rating for the tool as well as material to be cut. The carbide burrs or "rotary files" are great for high speed spindles but are not designed for heavy cuts.

The "rigidity" question was discussed previously. On the table router it is a big IF. The rigidity that the milling cut people expect is a machine that weighs a ton with a spindle that weighs more than the entire router assembly. Machines (other than old heavy duty commercial machines) designed for wood are generally to flimsy for metal work.

- guru - Monday, 08/30/10 10:11:43 EDT

"What router bits can be used in a lathe" ?????
I just got up and I'm a little blurry yet but, what are you going to do with router bits that can't be done with conventional lathe tooling?
All I can think of is that your doing "C" axis work with them.
Router bits made from HSS (high speed steal) will not hold up to contact with metallic surfaces.
If you consider that the surface speed of a .5 diameter tool at 20,000 rpm is 2616 SFM, far beyond the recommended 120 SFM max.
HSS will not work on brass, bronze or nickle silver at that SFM either.

The key thing to remember with metal removal tools is they cause a great deal of heat at the point of the cut.
If the majority of that heat is not taken away with the chips the tool produces the tool will break down very rapidly.
If your tool does alot of turning on the work without making any chips you will just have a mess.
Carbide tooling has a much higher heat threshold but is still damaged by it like any other cutting tool would be.
You would have to slow your router down to about 800 rpm to get about 100 SFM on a .5" tool. You would have no torque left on that router at that speed.
As I said I'm still a little blurry but, I don't see any advantage in using a router in place of your conventional lathe tooling.

- merl - Monday, 08/30/10 10:12:48 EDT

Merl, His original question was a little too generalized asking about cutters in a variety of machines including milling cutters in a wood working router. . . (bad idea in my opinion). He mentioned speed control on the lathe. . .

Mike T. Is this a wood turning lathe or metal turning (engine lathe)?

A wood turning lathe at the slowest speed that has any torque will probably be too fast and again, not rigid enough unless its a very heavy commercial wood working machine (lots of cast iron). A few old wood turning lathes were heavy enough and came with a compound rest for light metal turning. But they are pretty rare.

Generally trying to work metal with wood working tools is throwing money away on cutters and wrecks the wood working equipment. . .

- guru - Monday, 08/30/10 10:47:46 EDT

I have been looking at Patrick Pelgroms self contained power hammer. I happened across a pair of hydraulic rams the guy said was from the railroad. The collapsed length of each ram is about 5 feet. I estimate they weigh about 175 lbs each and the cylinder inner diameter I estimate at 4 inches. The shaft I estimate at 2 inches. Now my 4 questions:
1. Are these cylinders good candidates for a self contained jyh?
2. If so, how does one keep the hammer ram from rotating?
3. Why did he have a piston machined for the compressor side? (are the seals the issue?)
4. I think this project is doable but should I just KISS and make a mechanical hammer?

thank you for your time and expertise!
~Speedy

Speedy - Monday, 08/30/10 12:46:08 EDT

Speedy, First, There is nothing simple about self contained hammers, a lot to keep up with.

Patrick built both his cylinders. I just looked at all his letters and I can't find anything about anti-rotation. . . Most hammers use a flat on the rod that has a mating part in the guide bearing.

Anything is possible "Junk Yard Hammer" material. If you are REALLY building using the Junkyard philosophy of using whatever you find as cheaply as possible. If you have little in it, then you have lost little if it does not work as well as you expected. If it works at ALL you are way ahead.

One idea I had a long time ago was a "walking" cylinder for the compressor. This is anchored to a bearing at the top and the rod connects directly to the crank. Air connections must be flexible hoses but the general design is simplified. If the hoses leave the cylinder near the top rotation point there is very little flex on them. The cylinder only moves back and forth about 20 degrees (or less) and a counter weight on the crank will keep it running vibration free.

- guru - Monday, 08/30/10 14:24:20 EDT

OK, lets try this, then.

Mike T, as you likely already know, in turning, stock is removed by rotating the work against a stationary (that is to say a non-rotating) tool.
In milling, stock is removed by forcing a rotating tool to follow a certain path while in contact with the work.
We can and, often do, use milling/rotating cutters in a lathe BUT, that is a special set up for an engine lathe and a different machine all together for a CNC 4 or 5 axis turning center.
If you want to see a good example of how rotating cutters are used in a special lathe, google " Holtzapffel ornamental turning lathe" or look on youtube and I'm sure you will find many examples of ornamental turning and 4 axis turning.
My point is, what you won't see is someone trying to hold a router against a turning piece of stock chucked up in a lathe. I sincerely hope you aren't thinking of that.
Always remember that if you don't approach a machine like a lathe with a high level of logic, common sense and respect for its power, it may very well kill you or seriously injure you.
Please be very careful when trying to "find a way" to get something done using only what you have on hand.

- merl - Monday, 08/30/10 15:54:14 EDT

Theoretically, would it be feasible to utilize a jack hammer into a frame and using that with a foot pedal control as an auto hammer?

- Nippulini - Monday, 08/30/10 16:25:06 EDT

Also, my electrician buddy tells me that the phillips screwdriver was invented in the 1980's by Cadillac. What should I tell him?

- Nippulini - Monday, 08/30/10 16:25:55 EDT

TGN; how interesting as I was using a phillips head screwdriver in the 1960's! Perhaps he ment Torx or one of the other odd ones?

"auto hammer" you mean for bodywork? You would see some of the same issues you would have with using it as a power hammer for blacksmithing as it's not made to be in a rigid system and the adjustability would have to be designed in.

Now in armourmaking pneumatic impact guns have been used as plannishers and built into frames.

Thomas

Thomas P - Monday, 08/30/10 18:13:06 EDT

Nippulini tell him who cares Philips screws are CRAP!!!! When I get them with hardware I throw them in the garbage. I cannot understand why they are still made. Robertson screws (square drive) were invented in 1908 and are so much easier to use.

- JNewman - Monday, 08/30/10 18:17:38 EDT

Hes off by 50 years and a company does not invent ANYTHING, only people do, with their attendant names (thus Phillips rather than Cacillac screw).

Ah, tell him he needs glasses so he can tell a three from an eight.

Jack hammers and their smaller cousins the hand held air hammers are and have all been used to work hot and cold metal.

- guru - Monday, 08/30/10 18:21:22 EDT

I just had to purchase $150 worth of turn signal lights for my F-600 Ford truck because the Phillips screws which hold the lenses in stripped out their slots rather than backing out of plastic. . . I also hate them . .

- guru - Monday, 08/30/10 18:33:28 EDT

The only type of screw I hate more than phillips is torx, and maybe Bristal, or Parker kaylon's, or plain slotted. Give me a socket head cap screw with a kex socket, or a good hex head cap screw. The Odd Ferry 12 point male cap head screw was not bad.
But then I was spoiled by 21 years at the valve company that had cap screw made for us with an extra heavy, one size bigger cap. Except for the ones we made our selves, that had that extra tall one size bigger head.
But then they started making their own in the 1860 to 1880 time frame, and the standard was what you made them:)
Our drawings were letter sized. Just not the ANSI standard letter sizes since our system pre-dated ANSI.

ptree - Monday, 08/30/10 19:04:39 EDT

Kex =Hex

ptree - Monday, 08/30/10 19:05:06 EDT

Merl,
Thank you for the concern. I have been thinking of inventive ways people can use tools that will accomplish the same job without purchasing a lot of expensive equipment. I know a lot of you make your living with expensive tools and you need these tools. For the hobbyist, who just wants to make a part a certain way, purchasing expensive equipment is not feasible unless you are wealthy. I had thought about using end mills in my router and may try it to see how it does. I had also thought about turning brass etc. on my lathe, but wouldn't know exactly how to go about it. I have worked metal using a lot of elbow grease, but would like to find some short cuts. For example, for those who can't afford a Burr King belt grinder, I saw a drawing a guy made explaining how he could hollow grind a knife blade using a hand held 4 inch disk grinder. He made a jig and locked the grinder in it and the blades he produced looked good. However, it has limitations.

Mike T. - Tuesday, 08/31/10 00:36:15 EDT

hi dear
what is the heat treatment process for extention springs after forming? My spring is UNS S30400 (stanless steel).

reza - Tuesday, 08/31/10 07:35:15 EDT

Reza, 304 Stainless spring material is work hardened from drawing the wire and is used to make cold formed, non-heat treated springs. Heat treatment would only soften the wire.

- guru - Tuesday, 08/31/10 08:43:06 EDT

Mike, we are not trying to stifle your imagination, just prevent you from burning up or breaking a lot of expensive cutters. We have all learned these lessons the hard way.

Your example of using an angle grinder to grind a blade was conversion of a metal cutting tool to more controlled metal cutting. Converting power wood cutting machines to metal cutting is a lot different. Lowering the speed (with torque) is the first issue, then rigidity is the second. Even with old manually powered lathes they figured out hundreds of years ago that a clamped down tool holder was necessary for metal cutting. This was not just to make more accurate cuts but to hold the tool at the proper angle and without vibration.

For the things you are wanting to do I think you should be searching for a good cheap small metal turning lathe. I purchased a second (back up) 6" Craftsman lathe not too long ago for $350. That was fully equipped with chucks and tool holders. All it needed was a better 1/3 HP motor and a more rigid bench (It was mounted on a cheap tool cabinet that could barely hold the load much less not vibrate).

Granted, this was a "deal" because the guy didn't want to deal with shipping or parting it out.

A small engine lathe is great for knife work. The last furnished blades I made (two toy swords) had turned pommels on both. It only took a few minutes each to make beautifully decorated parts. The lathe could be used to make special pins and rivets. It would also be useful for pulleys and shafts for that grinder you want. . .

- guru - Tuesday, 08/31/10 09:21:44 EDT

Guru, I second that using a wood lathe for metal work is a really bad idea. Too much danger for the return.
I believe I quote you in saying "The lathe is the queen of the shop"
I see small metal working lathes on Craig's list for $250 to $500 pretty regularly

ptree - Tuesday, 08/31/10 10:33:20 EDT

At metal turning speeds you can actually use hand held tooling much like a wood lathe if all you are doing is some decorative or sculptural work. But you can also free-form using the two axiis of the carriage. Followed by filing you can get some pretty interesting shapes.

- guru - Tuesday, 08/31/10 14:01:44 EDT

Ahh how much money do you save abusing equipment not engineered to do what you want it to and then spending a couple thousand dollars at the ER?

I hope at least you spring for GOOD Personal Protective Equipment.

Thomas

Thomas P - Tuesday, 08/31/10 14:04:24 EDT

Off-Line: We were off-line for a couple hours today. The longest we have ever been and it wasn't us or our server, it was a DOS (Denial of Service) attack on the server farm we are hosted on.

- guru - Tuesday, 08/31/10 14:33:27 EDT

hay i live in north ca near reno nv and i cant find coal fore my forge does eanyone no where i can get some or is their something elce i can ues

clayton g - Tuesday, 08/31/10 19:27:24 EDT

I was wondering if there was any tips or hints that I could use to help keep my work straight and not have to keep taking heats just to hammer it straight?

I've been reading the New Edge of the Anvil book, and it helps some, but it seems like no matter how much an effort i make to keep the work level with the anvil, it always wants to get out of straightness.

PondRacer

PondRacer - Tuesday, 08/31/10 21:05:57 EDT

Coal: Clayton, Ask folks with the CBA where they get coal. Folks all over the country have the same problem and just pay the shipping for good coal from the East.

Your best alternative is charcoal. Real wood "lump" charcoal. It is the next best thing to coal and available almost everywhere world wide. It takes different fire management techniques and time to get used to it.

Lump charcoal is sold by restaurant supplies for steak houses and the big box stores in some places. . . unless its been outlawed in California.

- guru - Tuesday, 08/31/10 21:03:33 EDT

PondRacer,

You haven't told us what you're forging, but perhaps you're being too picky about keeping the work straight. It's a good idea to do a quick straightening before you put the piece back in the fire, but some curves are often irrelevant until you're ready to finish it up. Also, straightening requires a lower heat than most other forging operations, so you can often do it after the piece cools too much to do anything else.

Mike BR - Tuesday, 08/31/10 21:17:28 EDT

Pondracer, Paying attention to what is causing the bends helps. Holding the work flatter on the anvil, straightening as you go. Straightening at the end of each heat save taking extra heats. Most straightening should be able to be done cold unless you have some sever kinks.

- guru - Tuesday, 08/31/10 21:23:25 EDT

PondRacer,

When yo uhit the work with the hammer, the metal is displaced. If you hit one side more than the other, that side will be displaced more. If, for example, you are chamfering the edges of a piece of flat bar and hit one side twenty times and the other forty times, the pieceis going to curve with the side being hit more times getting longer than the other one. The same thing applies dring tapering and bending operations. Consistency in your hammer blows (developed only with lots of practice) makes it so you can even out the discrepancies as you work and keep things straighter. Keep in mind too, hammer blows done when the piece is fresh out of the fire will have more effect than those done when it has cooled some, again introducing curvature. Practice, practice, practice.

- Rich - Tuesday, 08/31/10 21:31:40 EDT

"Off Line" ahh, that's what happend to my reply post to Mike T.
Since then I have had time to think about my reply Mike, and I am glad now that it was not posted.
While your desire to explore new and creative ways to solve problems and get things done is great, I feel I can not advise what you are proposing (turning metal on a wood turning lathe that is unknown to me).
To help you with this in person would be one thing but, to advise you on this over the internet AND through someone elses web site just should not be done.
Too many places to for something to go wrong and you to get hurt or ruin a piece of equipment that wasn't designed to do this kind of work in the first place.
I guess I don't have to retract my earlier post as it never made it to the page but, I still won't be any help to you on this one.
Sorry...

- merl - Wednesday, 09/01/10 00:20:20 EDT

Merl,

Don't worry about it, I have made posts that I should never had made myself, one or two come to my mind right now. :)

Mike T. - Wednesday, 09/01/10 02:23:39 EDT

Aahhhh, thanks for the explanation. Don't think I saw that in the book. That helps me to understand more how the metal behaves under the hammer at different times. I thought it was the way I was holding the workpiece in relation to the anvil.

The first time I did every operation on my own (starting the fire, turnign round stock into square, drawing, bending, killing the fire), it took me 3 tries to start a coke fire, but I got it. Very different than starting up my bbq grill, thats fore sure. :) Turning round stock to square, I had better results this time around than I did the first time, partly because I was using a different anvil, and partly because I knew what to look for. Drawing to a point, that's where I struggled until I reread the book and kind of figured it out.

Now, the smithy that I am going to will close for the season, and thus I will not be able to get practice there during the winter. But, during winter is a good time for me to acquire my own shop. I have a section of railroad track, but that I know will be a light duty anvil, not a good multipurpose anvil like a 110# one.

PondRacer

PondRacer - Wednesday, 09/01/10 06:41:42 EDT

Another thing, I know there is a blacksmithing school out in Ephraim UT. 80 miles from where I live. However, currently, there is no way for me to get out there to attend the school. That will change, but not sure if it will be before they host the classes (in November). Hence why I am basically learning as I go.

I am starting with rebar, it seems to be an ok stock to start learning blacksmithing on. I did notice myself straightening the work more often at the end of each heat, near the end of the last session, than I did near the beginning.

I'm not quite discouraged at this time, just wondering how I could improve (and be more efficient). Guess as my experience grows, that experience will tell me how to become more efficient at doing the work.

Current project is not finished, I intend for it to become a wall hook. :)

PondRacer

PondRacer - Wednesday, 09/01/10 07:08:35 EDT

Pondracer, The key is experience and practice. It takes a hundred or so hooks to get pretty good at making a hook.

Most rebar is a little large and tough for newby practice material. Obtain some 3/8" or even 1/4" round and square stock. This is a good size to practice drawing tapers as you should be able to do so in one heat and is easy to make nice little J and S hooks from. The ease of working lets you concentrate on hammer control making long fine tapers and bending graceful curves.

Working small stock lets you build up your muscles while improving control. Working too large a stock may help build up muscle but you do so at the expense of control and can actually get worse. You can also work the small stock on a smaller anvil and with a smaller forge.

80 miles. . . A two day walk if you are serious. . ;)

- guru - Wednesday, 09/01/10 08:11:40 EDT

Pondracer,

What do you do with the hooks you make ?

Mike T. - Wednesday, 09/01/10 10:13:44 EDT

I think a coat tree ( I hope that is what its called ) would look good. The base, stand, round wooden hoop with the coat hooks attached to it. I think it would look good, need this forums advice on making the coat hooks. Actually, it's been a while since I've seen one, I would need agood picture.

Mike T. - Wednesday, 09/01/10 10:18:50 EDT

Might sell 'em and put money towards my own shop.

Pondracer - Wednesday, 09/01/10 10:37:36 EDT

If you have any kind of crafty outlet good hooks sell pretty well in every size. Greenhouses use and sell long S-hooks If you have a shop in a barn or shed then drive hooks are handy for you to hang tools with. We have humming bird feeders hanging from the gutters on short chains of S-hooks.

- guru - Wednesday, 09/01/10 10:45:47 EDT

I have done business with Admiral Steel and they have excellent service, but have never done business with All Metals and Forge Group WWW.STEELFORGE.COM have any of you done business with them ? If so, what did you think of them ?

Mike T. - Wednesday, 09/01/10 11:30:20 EDT

can I use gravel like / powdery coal to forge with. A woman want to sell me this coal for 25.oo per 55 gal drum of this. Is it worth it?

kevin - Wednesday, 09/01/10 11:33:04 EDT

Was thinking of making keychain holders but that is for another time, when I have more skills to learn forge welding. Other ideas come to mind but at this time I will soon need to make my own tools for my shop.

The rebar I am using is I think of 3/8" stock so it kinda helps but is a little thick for working with right now. Using a 3lb cross peen sure is a good workout lol.
Pondracer

Pondracer - Wednesday, 09/01/10 12:03:48 EDT

Hey Pondracer, here's a tip that will help.

First, use smaller stock. You can have lots of 1/4" round stock after election season is over. Usually the political losers leave their signs stuck in the ground all over (especially at intersections). Pulling old election signs is actually a good thing to do, otherwise it becomes a source of pollution and waste.

Now that you have smaller stock, put away that 3 pound monster hammer and use it for bigger stuff. Go with a 16 oz or so ball pein or straight peen (luck out if you find a double cross pein 1-2 pounder). A bigger hammer can lead to muscle fatigue and tendonitis. Smaller stock doesn't need heavy hammers unless you want to just smoosh the metal around. With practice and better hammer control you can use them as needed. But for now I would recommend lighter hammers, smaller stock and more practice making nails and hooks. This is an excellent way to get the basics down pat. Then you can proceed to the more advanced projects with bigger hammers, thicker stock and more tooling.

- Nippulini - Wednesday, 09/01/10 12:50:44 EDT

Pea Coal and Fines: Kevin, The trick to using fines is to wet the bed of coal and pack it tight. Heat from the core of the fire will melt the coal together and produce larger lumps of coke (IF the coal cokes).

With ANY unknown coal you should bring home a 5 gallon bucket and test it. Otherwise you can end up with a big pile you cannot get rid of. .

The price is about $90/ton which is very good. If its good coal I would bring it all home.

- guru - Wednesday, 09/01/10 13:25:15 EDT

With 1/4" stock you can get away with a "one firebrick forge" made from a soft firebrick and a cheap plumber's propane torch. It's possible to have your complete set up fit in a 5 gallon *steel* bucket and take it outside and set it up as needed.

(I used such a set up to make nails and forge silver in my basement during a long cold OH winter--of course my basement was very drafty as it was in a 100 year old house and was natural stone walls and very old windows...)

Thomas

Thomas P - Wednesday, 09/01/10 16:06:40 EDT

Pondracer, take Nippulini's advise and put away that big hammer for bigger stock. No matter how strong you are unless you swing a hammer all day at work, such as a carpenter used to do, you will blow your arm out with that 3 pounder.
1.5-2lbs is plenty to start with.
When I first started I had a lot of trouble with holding the work too high and bending it while drawing out.
I found two things that greatly helped me.
First, don't force yourself to make everything with tongs.
Start with a piece of stock long enough so that you can hold it with a bare or gloved hand. This will allow you to "feel" when you're holding too high or too low on the anvil. You'll get shocks and a lot of bouncing when you strike the work and it is not sitting flat on the surface of the anvil. You can more easily train your eye and hand coordination if you remove some of the variables when first learning hammer control.
After you get a visual sense of whether the stock is sitting on the anvil just right then you can add another variable by holding with a pair of tongs.
The second big revelation to me was moving the work under the hammer and not the hammer over the work.
Some may scoff and argue on this but the first time I used a power hammer this became the most obvious way to do things.
The easiest thing for me to do is strike in the same place every time. So were ever I need to be on the anvil, I set the work there and strike only there, moving the work under the hammer as needed.
I know this sounds SO obvious but, a lot of guys just starting out and, those that are self taught seem to suffer with this aspect of developing their hammer control so, I think it is important to mention now and then.

- merl - Wednesday, 09/01/10 16:15:29 EDT

Mike T, always remember, the only dumb question is the one NOT asked.
You brought to mind, for me, a situation a few years ago when someone posted on another forum about how he had to be rushed to the hospital for stitches because of something he did even though he new he it was dangerous.
It was incredibly stupid and I really laid in to him about it and made something of a public spectacle of him on the safety forum in the hopes it would make the predominately amiture machinists on the site wake up and see the danger of that type of work.
Well, what ended up happening was the safety forum turned into a "let me tell you how stupid I was today..." forum with each post trying to out do the other.

The experienced machinist and military leader in me tried to rein things back in but, you know how quickly stuff can get out of control on the Internet so, I ended up leaving that web site and, not going back. I was hoping they would realize I was gone and so, have no one to brag to, hopefully stop their foolishness.
Discretion IS much the better part of valor and we all need to be mindful of what we say both in real life as well as virtual reality...

- merl - Wednesday, 09/01/10 16:41:17 EDT

I heat treated a test piece of A2. It went from 10 rockwell c to 58 rockwell c. I turned on the oven to 1750 F as the carpenter book said and threw the piece in and when the oven reached 1750 i let it sit for 25 minutes. When the time was up i took it out and put it under a fan and peeled the stainless foil off. I have decided to temper it back to 700 F for one hour according to dave boyer and the carpenter book. My question is do i let the oven heat to 700 then throw the part in or do i turn on to 700 and throw the part in when it's cold. Also do I have to wrap the part again. Do i have to let it cool inside the oven or do i take the part out and let it cool naturally or do i put it under a fan again.

paul in iowa - Wednesday, 09/01/10 16:48:15 EDT

The best time to temper is after hardening before the part reaches room temperature. Cooling to room temperature is more likely to result in cracking AND by tempering while still warm you do not forget to temper. 700°F will not cause scaling but it WILL cause slight discoloration. So generally you do not wrap to temper. You can temper in a hot oven or bring the piece up with the oven.

- guru - Wednesday, 09/01/10 16:57:00 EDT

I have a commission to build some large forged lantern brackets for a house on the Florida coast, right on the water.

The lanterns that will be mounted to the brackets are built from copper on a steel frame.

Since the home is right on the water I felt that a steel bracket with a hot dip galvanized finish, topped with powder coat would still not last in the beachfront conditions.

I am now thinking on the lines of forging stainless, but I have had some problems with splitting on the long tapers. Also, I do not know how I would passify the material when I was done. I would then paint the stainless to match the patina on the lanterns.

The other option would be bronze, but I need one curved hollow section for wiring and I do not know about the availability of bronze round tubing and how it would work with heat.

As far as the lantern goes, I would recommend that the designer hot dip galvanize and powder coat the steel framework and if it does eventually rust, at least it won't ruin the siding on the house (stone).

Any ideas or insight would be most appreciated. I am leaning towards stainless, but open to suggestions.

Thanks

John Phillips - Wednesday, 09/01/10 18:07:25 EDT

we have a m&h mousehole forge anvil.It weighs 124 lbs. we are trying to get its value if you can help. thank you....all letters are legitable..

Alesia - Wednesday, 09/01/10 19:37:23 EDT

Alesia, EVERYTHING is condition in an anvil of this sort. It is one of the most common sizes. In rough condition but not abused it will go for $150 or so. In mint condition (very unusual) maybe $400. It also makes a difference where you are. In anvil rich areas of the U.S., in good condition it may go for as little as $100. In anvil poor areas the same anvil may sell for $300.

- guru - Wednesday, 09/01/10 20:10:14 EDT

John Phillips, you did not say what alloy Stainless you are forging, but the 316L that I have experience with must be HOT to forge. Once high red is reached, it needs another heat. I try to start at lemon yellow, and take another heat when I start to see orange fading to bright red.
Passivation is not all that hard. There are many schemes on the net, just google passivation of stainless steel. Most involve heat, acid and then nuetralize. I have passivated in white vinegar, and also citric acid.
I like to heat to about 1650-1900F and quench in CLEAN water. Then I leave in the vinegar to both pickle the scale off and passify. Use onlt Stainless steel wire brushes and mark them and only use them on SS. A steel wire brush will impregnate steel into the surface and it will rust quick. Same for abrasives, don't use the same wheel or belt for both SS and carbon steel.
SS usually takes about 50% more energy to move the same amount, so plain more heats, more cost in time in the forging, and also plain for the cost to clean it up.

ptree - Wednesday, 09/01/10 20:15:22 EDT

Lamp and Bracket: John, Your first plan is probably the best. If the hot dip galvanize is not broken by drilling, cutting or filing it will hold up very well. You would want to be sure the wiring tube was large and clean so that it gets galvanized inside.

Splitting in stainless tapers is usually working too cold. Stainless needs to be worked hotter than mild steel.

The problem is going to be the lantern. Copper on a steel frame in salt air is bi-metallic corrosion heaven. Between the two metals you can get a significant voltage and resulting corrosion. See Galvanic Series:

The iron frame would evaporate in a few years. Zinc would protect it but would be a worse bi-metalic corrosion problem and could result in holes in the copper as well as staining. Read up on all the problems the Statue of Liberty has had.

The copper lantern should be all copper (including frame) or copper over brass or stainless. Consider your joining ring or chain as well. Electrical parts should be made easy to replace due the corrosion of those parts and their attaching means.

I would go with stainless for as much of the project as possible and have it sandblasted to remove scale and provide good tooth for paint. Avoid powder coating as it is difficult to repair and maintain.

- guru - Wednesday, 09/01/10 20:27:33 EDT

John, see ptree's note about needing more labor. Expect labor for SS to be two or three times steel. Besides forging being more difficult so is sawing, drilling, cost of welding materials. . .

- guru - Wednesday, 09/01/10 20:30:49 EDT

I've done *very* little of it, but silicon bronze is a nice material to work. Atlas Metals stocks round tubing in what looks like a fair assortment of sizes. But it wouldn't match the patina on the copper, and using bronze seems like a real waste if you're going to paint.

Mike BR - Wednesday, 09/01/10 20:56:53 EDT

My experience, having taught hundreds of students, is not to coddle them with light hammers and gloves. Most beginners can handle a 2½ or 3 pound hammer. If a student has a slight build and is struggling, as with some women, I sometimes offer a 2 pound hammer. Most beginners develop the atrocious habits of not getting the steel hot enough and using wishy washy, dinky blows. It is so easy for them to take a red heat instead of the optimal bright lemon for M.S. Then, because it is red, to just keep beating on it just because it is red, not because you're making anything. You QUIT at a low cherry red and take another lemon heat. There are some reasons for beginners not wanting to take a lemon heat. One reason is that they are "gun shy." They're afraid of burning the iron. Another reason is that they can't see the steel as well because of the thickness of the scale and the bright incandescence. Tough toenails; get over it.

I realize that a neophyte has an aiming problem, and that is usually why they don't pick up the hammer very high. In terms of rhythm, they use many rapid, light blows. Those kind of blows can be used for finishing the work at a blood red into a gray heat. However, if you're going to move metal at a bright heat, you slow that rhythm and lift the hammer higher. If your aim is a little off, GET OVER IT! Keep trying. Even though the rhythm is slowed, each blow is more telling.

As you unlearn your bad habits, if developed, you must then learn where the metal is going to go when you hit it.

Frank Turley - Wednesday, 09/01/10 21:02:38 EDT

Have recently come into possession of an old hand crank blacksmith forge that is marked 'American S______ Co. Inc., Bainbridge, NY, USA'. Any help you could give me with information on this piece would be appreciated. Thank you,
Jeff R.

Jeff R. - Wednesday, 09/01/10 21:14:47 EDT

The only forge company I can find that starts with an S is the Silver Mfg Co. Salem, Ohio. Mayber they started in New York. . .

- guru - Wednesday, 09/01/10 22:21:33 EDT

Yeah, I start at yellow heat (or I _try_ to, I have not yet calibrated my eyes to the right heat level, I sometimes get it at just below yellow heat). Occasionally the piece comes out sparkly white, and I know thats too hot for simple forge working... but just right for forge _welding_. I have gotten lucky I think, not to burn the steel except for once when I put the end in the oxidizing part of the fire. The book I have helped me be able to place the workpiece more consistently in the neutral flame area so I do not burn the steel too much.

I also need to learn to keep the hammer striking the same spot and move the work not the hammer. Now that I have seen videos of power hammers in operation, I should in a sense emulate how a power hammer does... maybe a good place for me to start. Now the only time I would need to move the hammer is when I need to use different types of strikes (like near the edge, on the horn, etc).

Gloves... I use only one, on the hammer hand, for better grip. The hammers I am using are not mine, they belong to the smithy. There is a ball-peen hammer there but it is too light, like 1 lb or some such. 3LB I can handle, just take my time. But I am planning to buy my own hammer, at 2.5 lbs, wood handle. No fiberglass handles, thankyou. :) Because the 2.5 lb hammer I can see as not as tiring to use as the larger hammer. I did try a 4lb hammer, but couldnt use it more than 10 minutes LOL.

I'll keep an eye out for those election signs with steel posts in them... and liberate those posts. I hate those signs with a passion, anything that I can do to make them not stand on their own anymore, all the better :)

PondRacer

PondRacer - Wednesday, 09/01/10 22:36:29 EDT

PondRacer,
Man, I'm here in the boat with you.
For learning hammer-control at home, I'm given a pile of old metal tube table-legs to beat flat. (cold metal)

I'm told to get the hang of hitting my target, then move to my 3-lb hammer and count the # of strikes it takes to flatten it. NOW improve by using less strikes to do the job of beating the tube flat. Accurate strikes with more force, (but not trying to crack the anvil.)
I love my ratty little Mousehole anvil for just this!
I'm about to start working on a 2nd pile of table-legs....

Mr. Turley, Thank you for your post.

member; UNLB (united newbies learning blacksmithing)

danial - Thursday, 09/02/10 01:10:25 EDT

Wow, I can't believe it!!!
Between my last babbling post and now, I have aquired another anvil.
159-lb PeterWright, very good condition & very fair priced.
I was informed I had the anvil before I even had coffee this morning.
This came from the next-door-neighbor that I asked many months ago about an anvil and just now came through with it.
(left on the porch last night with a note attached, wife found it this morning.)
WARNING! If searching for an anvil and you have multiple people looking for you.....let them all know when you are NOT looking for an anvil anymore.
You may have more anvils coming to you than you can afford.
This is number-6 in the danial newbie collection now.

danial - Thursday, 09/02/10 11:38:27 EDT

Yes, Pondracer, you have just the right idea.
If you have two arms and two hands, why not utilise them to the fullest? Why should the hand you use to hold the stock just lay there.
I find it so much easier to pick the spot on the anvil were I'll be doing my work (near edge, far edge, horn, ...ect) and keep my eyes focused right there, move the work into the "strike zone" and deliver the blows all in that same spot while repositioning and turning the work as needed with the holding hand.
Of corse you can't force yourself to just stay tightly focused on that one spot all the time because the work becomes more and more fluid as you become more adept at what you're doing and you have to follow it. But when you're starting out it really helps to limit the number of variables your brain has to deal with in the split second you have between hammer blows.
The other advantage to this is that you actually have a slightly longer amount of time to observe and consider the results of each blow on the work before you bring the hammer down for the next one.
If you have to strike and then reposition your eyes and then mentally re-align where the hammer will fall before it starts it's down hill run, you won't have any time to ponder the effect of the last blow and decide from that, how to proceed.
You will see and hear a lot of smiths making a lite "dribble" tap on the anvil as they work, you might do it yourself and not know just why.
I have had people ask me "why do blacksmiths do that?"
I do it to give my self a chance to stop and think without breaking the rhythm of hammer blows and to give my arm a quick rest. I usually make three real hits and a dribble tap over and over until it's time to go back in the fire. Sometimes it is a signal to others that I'm done swinging and I'm going back in the fire, sometimes it's just me talking to myself.

Gloves... DO NOT wear a glove on you hammer hand.
If you're having trouble hanging on to your hammers then the handle is likely not fitted correctly to your hand and, a glove only makes it worse.
Maybe the Guru can put in a link to the "Hammer Handle Holiday" page or you can search around until you find it (I can never remember where it is) and you can read a little on fitting your handles to your hand to reduce fatigue and increase safety.
The basic point is your two middle fingers should just come around and be able to comfortably touch the base of your thumb to form a good solid grip when the handle is properly fitted to you.
Yeah, a fiberglass handle with the molded rubber grip is just tendonitis and carpal tunnel waiting to happen.
The ONLY time I ever wear a glove on my hammer hand is when all else has failed and my hand is wet from sweat.
The quickest way to get a blister is a smooth wood handle and wet hands.
I'll usually rub some coal dust on my hands or dry gravel dust to keep them dry as I'm working but sometimes you forget and dip them into the slack tub while quenching a part. Then you gotta' wear a glove until they're dry but, not otherwise.
My main hammer is a 2.5 pound straight pien but I trade up to a 3-4 lb heavy mover and down to a 1.5 lb custom ground texturing hammer as needed.
Remember, it doesn't all come at once, no matter how much we want it too.

- merl - Thursday, 09/02/10 11:39:32 EDT

danial, one of my blacksmithing mentors has 47 working anvils, and he loves them all...

- merl - Thursday, 09/02/10 11:44:31 EDT

Danial; I have *NEVER* had a problem with finding someone who would like to take an extra anvil off my hands. I generally only charge a "carriage" fee on those transactions and as I seem to find anvils cheaper than most I generally have a waiting list...Makes it easier to get the anvils that are exactly what you want by upgrading and passing on your old ones.

Thomas

Thomas P - Thursday, 09/02/10 12:08:37 EDT

FAQ's page, H, Hammer Handle Repair Day

- guru - Thursday, 09/02/10 12:11:50 EDT

The main reason for the glove is because a) the hammer I am using is not mine (so I can't modify the handle) and b) using that hammer makes a blister form on my hand and I have not yet callused over. On my own hammer I won't use the glove but will sand off the varnish on the handle.

Pondracer

Pondracer - Thursday, 09/02/10 12:20:01 EDT

Amassing Tools: This can take a lifetime. It can be an expense but is also an investment. When you start out it may seem a daunting task. I had a fellow looking for tools come into shop once and accuse me of being "greedy" because I had several of numerous tools and a bunch of machinery and most was not being used on a regular basis. Less than a decade later he has a fully equipped shop and is looking at a second power hammer. . .

At one time I had about a dozen anvils. They had just tended to accumulate. At least two were gifts looking for a home. I sold all but four. I kept my two large "prize" or working anvils, an ancient Colonial missing the horn and a cheap thin faced cast iron junker. The junker has since gone to a friend for his kids to pound on.

Since then I have accumulated a few more. I have a second broken horn anvil and two small old English anvils of around 120 pounds. One is missing the face beyond the hardy hole. These are as much conversation pieces as well as "beaters".

But more important to me is vises. I have 4 working leg vises in weights up to 150 pounds, two heavy duty Prentice chipping vises (6" and 8"), several medium sized bench vises, a Wagon Vise and the two woodworking vises on one bench (see A HREF="/21centbs/woodworking/woodworkers_bench.php" TARGET="_top">wood working bench article). There is also one or two "parts" leg vises.

Today, all I can afford to collect is the images of fine tools. . . Tres Bigornia Catalan (Spanish Anvils)

- guru - Thursday, 09/02/10 13:01:57 EDT

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