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Hi! I haven't visited your web site in awhile. I am hoping to get a chance to do a little blacksmithing this week for the first time in 2 years. Life has been extremely busy and I no longer have the space I used to work in so I am now relegated to the out of doors. I am hoping the weather will be ok on Tuesday so I can do a little hammering. I have to walk by my anvil every day on my way to my stupid 8 to 4 job which does pay the bills but it kills me every morning to know that it will be sitting there idle once again. Any way, I'll take what I can get for now and am hoping that life will slow down a little in the next few years so it becomes more of a regular thing again.    - Wendy - Saturday, 10/31/09 22:47:00 EST Hey Wendy! Long time no hear. We have some new features. Several eBooks (more coming), galleries of anvils, book reviews and many more new FAQs.    - guru - Sunday, 11/01/09 00:20:31 EST Food-safe finishes: I'm making some cooking tripods for reenactors, and was wondering if anyone had some good suggestions for metal finishes that are food-safe and resonably resistant to weather and flame. I am thinking of either beeswax or cooking oil, but wanted to check with wiser folk than me first. -Maolcolm    Maolcolm - Sunday, 11/01/09 07:50:33 EST Maolcolm, The safest finish for eating utensils is mineral oil. Vegetable oil can become rancid, mix with other foods and support bacteria growth. Beeswax tends to be sticky. Clear mineral oil is used in bakeries to oil pans and is also sold as stool softener and baby oil. The baby oil is perfumed so it should not be used on eating utensils. All these finishes are temporary and will wash or wear off. Whatever you use, the customer should have replacement instructions and it should be common enough for them to obtain. Vegatable oil is OK if the user understands it should be washed off prior to using the utensil and then reapplied after washing for storage to prevent rust. While many get away without these precautions it is best to be safe than sorry.    - guru - Sunday, 11/01/09 09:25:50 EST Just for the record, every time I fill out a site survey form I have to pull out the calculator because the state historic preservation office demands all area measurements to be in hectares. I've taken to using scientific notation on the surveys of less than 100 square feet...    Alan-L - Sunday, 11/01/09 10:11:29 EST During WWII we had aluminum pennies.    Carver Jake - Sunday, 11/01/09 10:42:39 EST Jake, not in the U.S. For one year, 1943, due to copper shortages the mint made steel pennies. When I was a kid you would find them once in a while in change. Today, they sell for between $0.10 and $10 each as collectors items. The U.S. tested making some aluminum pennies in VERY small quantities but they were never circulated and most were destroyed. Other countries have had aluminum coins. I have a few Italian Al coins and France made them as well. Even the larger sized ones are cheap and tinny compared to other coins. Since 1983 the U.S. penny has been copper clad zinc. They are noticably lighter and make more of a clink sound when rattled together than copper pennies did. Within a year of their release copper pennies almost disappeared entirely.    - guru - Sunday, 11/01/09 12:14:35 EST Hi What luck will I have forgeing some knives from Berillium copper. I know cold chisles are made of it. Ron    Ron R. - Sunday, 11/01/09 14:10:43 EST Beryllium Bronze Ron, While it is a very good material it is not nearly the strength or hardness of high carbon steel. It IS comparable to a medium carbon steel and superior to other copper alloys in strength and hardness. The serious issue is that beryllium is very toxic. Inhaling dust from grinding, filing or polishing results in a flu like illness that progresses to a pneumonia type illness and then death as it is almost always misdiagnosed. The most common uses for beryllium bronze or beryllium copper is spring wire for pin tumbler locks and anti-sparking tools for working in potentially explosive environments. In locks it is used because the brass construction requires a spring that is of a similar metal that will not corrode. I would be very leery of selling a polished beryllium copper product that the owner might want to re-polish again in the future without knowing the hazards.    - guru - Sunday, 11/01/09 14:57:51 EST Guru, Thank you for your input. My forge has a swinging handle on the side where I stand hinged at about waist level. I was not sure what it was for but now figure it is to be a handle to be hooked to the ash dump. I like the triangle[or ball] clinker breaker. What is the best material to make that out of. Thank you very much. Charliey    Charliey Reynolds - Sunday, 11/01/09 20:23:45 EST Charliey check this link Lever Forge There are many of this type forge with various lever and brackets. The lever operates like a bellows working a mechanism that turn the blower. These mechanisms came on large and small forges. This may be the handle you speak of. The clinker breaker handle is just a bent bar that can be turned around. There are two general types of "clinker breaker". One is the ball type, the other is a T shaped device that protrudes into slots in the bottom sides of the fire pot. The base of the "T" is where it attaches to the shaft that passes through the tuyere below th firepot. This is much less an ash dump than the ball type. OEM control balls were cast iron because it was easy to make them that way, ESPECIALLY when you are having castings made in the first place. Any type of mild steel is fine for the job. They have a hole drilled through the axis for a 1/2" (13mm) shaft and a set screw (about 3/8") locks it to the shaft.    - guru - Sunday, 11/01/09 21:46:37 EST Something unusual about copper. When I first got out of high school, I went to work at a copper tubing plant. I worked with hot copper all day long and my sense of smell became sensitive to it. I could pull change out of my pocket and the copper pennies smelled terrible. I guess the same applies to other substances as well.    Mike T. - Monday, 11/02/09 01:32:56 EST Environmental Sensitivities: One can become sensitized to various things and even develop severe allergies to them. The problem is that such things can become compounded. I am allergic to cats. I did not know it until I was almost 50 years old. We had cats almost all my life. My unknown allergy to cats sensitized my sinuses and resulted in my reacting to many kinds of pollens. I had severe grass allergies all through my late teens through 30's. Simply driving by where grass was being cut would cause an asthmatic reaction. My asthma also manifested itself as sinus infections anytime I swam in lakes and was severe enough that I lived with migraines, shortness of breath and all the usual severe asthmatic conditions. Then the cat died, and we did not get another. Like many things that you get over you never notice the exact moment. All I knew was that I hadn't had the usual hay fever type symptoms that I almost always had. For a short period my nasal problems had been so sever I had an inhaler and it seemed to cure my sensitized sinuses. I had long since given up cutting grass and kept my distance when others were doing so. Since it takes time I just didn't notice exactly when the problems went away. . . Then my wife brought home a kitten. Within hours my eyes were red and nose running. I started sneezing at every smell (food cooking, changes in air temperature). NOW I knew. . . it was cats all those years! The kitten was sent to a new home. The problems went away immediately. Since we had always had cats I never noticed being allergic to them. But I did notice other things and these were thought to be the allergy. Doctors never questioned it since I could point to specifics. The problem in that once your sinuses, lungs, skin or any part of your body that is exposed to the environment is sensitized then you may react to other things. In my case one allergy led to many more severe allergies and those led to health issues that are permanent. People develop demiititus (skin reactions) from exposure to one or more things then react more severely to things that they normally would not. I knew a fellow that developed allergies to metals and would react severely to any metal other than stainless and he reacted to it somewhat. He claimed it was from years of polishing gun and knife parts. This may be true but it may have also been aggregated by chemicals used for coloring or cleaning the parts. Dissolved metals probably got into his skin and had some part in his developing the allergy. I am one of the lucky ones. I eventually learned what my base problem was and it is something I can avoid. I know I can visit for a few hours where there are cats but I cannot stay overnight. While tobacco smoke does not bother me I have allergic reactions to it IF there are cats present as well (a compounded problem). Otherwise I can live with a smoker without a problem (currently do not). It is something to think about especially if you already have any kind of allergies.    - guru - Monday, 11/02/09 07:51:13 EST Money used to be non-metric. Remember pieces-of-eight? What did they call a quarter beck in the day? Two bits. Then there is the myth about the million dollar steel penny. I want to know the best way for me to weld a mason nail to a quarter... you should already know the reason why. Allergies, by the way, are induced by the introduction of certain proteins that the body falsely rcognizes as a threat. Jock, in your case your body became aware of the proteins in cat saliva. After the cat licks itself for cleaning the saliva dries. Cat scratches itself and the dried saliva (along with a bunch of other nasty stuff) floats in the air and now its in you. I have done a lot of research about allergies to deal with the incessant arguing my customers doll out to me about their "allergic" reaction to the nickle in stainless steel. Steel contains no protein or organic matter, hence you CANNOT be allergic to it! IN addition I go on further to educate them about the effect of the outer layer of chromium oxide that limits nickle contact. Now hyper sensitivity to metals is a completely different thing. When a customer complains of a rash within 24 hours of exposure to the piercing, we break out the grade 23 Ti. jewelry out.    - Nippulini - Monday, 11/02/09 12:50:08 EST Historical ironwork: what kind of finish do you think the tripods had originally? My bet is *none*. They rusted on the surface and then soot and oil spatters from cooking "seasoned" them. Thomas    Thomas P - Monday, 11/02/09 14:40:54 EST "Remember pieces-of-eight?" No Nip, I don't, you must be a lot older than me! That's also where "two bit" came from. Eight Reales in a Spanish dollar.    - grant - Monday, 11/02/09 16:26:52 EST Rats! I read "tripod" as "utensil" . . . A coat of BBQ flat black would do the job. Even if paint flakes off the high temp blacks are mostly graphite (non-toxic) and a very small amount of binder. Rust, soot and some veritable oil works fine too. I find that olive oil rapidly hardens with a little heat if you want to go that route. Traditionally. . a dirty dish rag (probably greasy) wiping it down when tearing down the camp MIGHT have applied some "finish". If the owner worried about rust then any kind of oil would probably get used. .    - guru - Monday, 11/02/09 16:26:57 EST A bit on metal dermatitis. Having spent most of my life working in large metalworking factories, I have seen lots of dermatitis. Usually blamed on bad coolant, rancid coolant( bacteria) or "some chemical" in the coolant. EXCEPT, I noticed that the guys who machined the cast mallable iron handwheels seemed to get it more often and they did not use coolant.(Cast iron makes lots of dust when machined) We had a large screw machine shop, running 48 screw machines, 3 shifts. We used the then current "Black oil". Re-refined used motor oil, with added fat and sulfur. We started to have lots of skin dermatitis, and at one point had 30%+ of the staff off work on Workers Comp!. The powers that be decided to clean out the oil system and change suppliers with the thought that the oil was at fault. The 10,000 gallon system was found to only hold about 4000 gallons, as the main, in ground tank was nearly full of sludge. We had the oil removed and jetted the metal sludge out. The safety guy asked me, the special project engineer to install filters to keep out the fines that were filling the tank. I did so, using bag filters and after some trials settled on a series of strainer, 50 micron, 15 micron and a final 10 micron polish filter. No sludge build up, and the new oil was succesful, since the dermatitis went away. Move forward about 10 years and now I am the safety guy/plant engineer. Built a new factory, and have 2 central system coolant systems and now we get dermatitis on the water based side. I remember the past, and knowing that the filters in the central system are 50 micron only, I ask for a test of "dirt" and particle count as well as bacteria counts in the coolant. The "dirt load was huge, the bacteria count was tiny. I suggest placing a large side stream filter to remove the fines. A 450 gpm filter with 10 bags was installed, and the dirt load dropped.( this system ran 24/7 at a min flow of 1500 gpm) So did the dermatitis. A consultant and I were discussing this issue over lunch, and this semi-retired gentlemen with a doctorate behind his name and a career working at Fort Detrick, mentioned that as the size of metal particles approachs 3 microns, the reactivity increases. Apparently some research he had done, and that he could not further discuss was on just this subject. Remember that Ft Detrick is where the Chem, germ and rad warfare research is done. Motto is, Metal CAN cause what appears to be an allergy. Metal fines get into the skin pores and abrade the skin, react, and cause a horrible looking dermatitis. Looks like small pox almost. Some of those folks became sensatized and could no longer work with the coolant. Not the coolant but the fines were the issue, but the coolant always had some metal fines content. For reference a micron is a jargin word for a micrometer, and a red blood cell is about 4 x 6 microns in size. The average human, with good contrast and lighting can see an object at perhaps 40 microns size. I also know of a woman who was burned, probably second degree on her arms, wore jewelry while recovering, and became sensatized to gold. She gets a reaction that appears after about 3 hours of wear in that the skin around the contact sloughs off. Sterling silver is a little better, and I was able to make a light and airy wedding ring for her that she can wear for about 8 hours without effect. Longer and she has problems. I also scrubbed that "Lacey" open design ring vigerously to remove all polish residue. The human body is a very complex chemical factory that has not yet been duplicated by man.    ptree - Monday, 11/02/09 18:56:02 EST Hmm, I get skin rash working around my EDM, always thought it was the oil. I filter to 15 micron and the oil comes out clear as glass. 30 does nothing (or appears so). Kinda tells my how big most of my particles are, no? So even smaller can cause rash, eh? Thanks PTree! Food for thought.    - grant - Monday, 11/02/09 19:09:25 EST Hey, wait, isn't a micrometer a miniature little C-clamp?    - grant - Monday, 11/02/09 19:11:41 EST I remember when I was a teenager, I was getting a haircut and the barber was shaving my neck. He said you are allergic to metal. I said how can you tell ? He said my razor is making your neck a beet red. Sure enough, I can't wear a metal watch band or a ring. When I was married, my wife would coat the inside of my wedding ring with clear fingernail polish. It worked until the polish wore off, then tiny blisters would show up.    Mike T. - Monday, 11/02/09 19:57:22 EST Grant, Since we can not see particals at the size that rashs us, we have to depend on either filter size/effiecency, or particle count. I suspect if you ran a standard oil particle count like used on hydraulic oil you would find the particle count at th max limits of the device to measure. On water based, emulsified oil type coolants the maker was sure that the oil would be stripped from the emulsion at 3 micron and some additives at 5 micron would be stripped. I used bag filters and until near blocked these would have a beta rating of less than 2. (filters are rated by the number of particles upstream devided by the number downstream giving the beta rating. IE 100 upstream devided by 50 downstream equals a beta of 2) I used 10 micron in the big bag filter at first, and bla=ocked them in hours, but as time went by say a week or so, I was able to tune down to the final rating, and get about 2 days out of a set of bags. We also used an autoclean centrifuge, added after the bag filter was in place and that pulled alot of the fines out as well, but at 5gpm, it would never have caught up to ingression. At the valve shop, in the forge die shop we ran about half a dozen EDM's, several were wire the rest ram type sinking blocks for up to the 10,000# hammer. Lots of oil to filter, and we had a seperate room for the filtration. I think it was bag filters then a fuller earth bed type for the final polish. I do not believe that we had any rash issues. I would try a finer polish after the regular filter. I like bag filters as the housings can often be had cheap and the bags are very cheap. If you need I can suggest a source for reasonable bags. I have also often used bags without a houseing if gravity flow will suffice. I think I would try something around 5 micron for EDM    ptree - Monday, 11/02/09 20:21:19 EST Grant, a micrometer is indeed a small precise C-clamp. Also a millionth of a meter lenght:) And, OIL defats the skin, making the skin very dry and open for infection. So the EDM oil also may be at fault if you leave the oil on the skin for hours at a crack. If you get just a bit of oil on you, try gloves to prevent contact, and lots of foamy soap and water to float the fines off if you do get any oil on you.    ptree - Monday, 11/02/09 20:24:30 EST I want to make some big tongs to hold work in the power hammer. Are they just a bigger version of small tongs or are there other considerations?    philip in china - Monday, 11/02/09 21:21:50 EST Phillip, You may find this handy. Tong Dimensions However, what this does not show is that there are long and short pattern tongs. For working at a small hammer you do not need really long tongs but you need them to FIT. A critical point is that the reins have some springyness and that a tong ring will hold them on the work. For the ring to work the reins need to angle away from each other just enough that you can slide the ring up and get a tight grip. AND you did not say HOW big. . Big enough that you you are going to need a crane to support the work?    - guru - Monday, 11/02/09 21:32:46 EST Filters: The stuff that is hard to stop is buffing/polishing fines. I've used several grades of masks and could always taste the copper after just a short while. When hand polishing aluminium I know I have gotten down to those less than 3 micon fines that penetrate into the skin. You get black stains that don't wash out and smell metallic for days no matter how much you wash.    - guru - Monday, 11/02/09 21:34:47 EST The tongs would be to hold work for a 55 pound hammer so I don't think a crane would enter into the equation! Thanks for the chart. I am sure that it will be useful.    philip in china - Monday, 11/02/09 21:46:03 EST Note that I believe that chart produces pretty heavy tongs that could be made of wrought or very mild steel. Higher carbon steel A36, 1040. . . would be strong enough to make the tongs lighter.    - guru - Monday, 11/02/09 21:57:56 EST DERMATITIS Thanks Grant and PTREE. Thanks for the lead on the metal fines being a problem rather than simply, "the oil". EDM related skin rash had been a recurring problem for me and occasionally for some of the other guys in the shop. Lots to check up on tomorrow. Thanks again.    - Tom H - Monday, 11/02/09 22:05:51 EST As I lay awaiting slumber last evening, it occurred to me that another source of dermatitis in EDM oil may be hexavalent chrome. If you are EDM'ing chrome bearing steels like stainless or some of the tool steels, the chrome may be converted into the hexavalent state in the high energy arc. Hexavalent chrome will cause severe rashs.    ptree - Tuesday, 11/03/09 06:33:44 EST Appears to me i have an allergy to red oak. Five years ago a red oak fell that i cut up to make charcoal. Long story short after that i couldn't open my eyes for 3 - 4 days, but the cause remained a mystery. Now just a few months ago we had another red oak fall. This past weekend i borrowed my dad's chainsaw and cut up some firewood. What do you know the same reaction occured, but luckily this time it's much more mild.    - Tyler Murch - Tuesday, 11/03/09 08:54:00 EST Halloween marked my 1st anniversary to my second wife. She got me "Metalworking - Sink or Swim" by Tom Lipton. Nice resource, lots of tips. There is a two page rant the author put in about the metric system. I thought I was reading Jocks writing for a minute, but Tom Lipton put it perfectly when he states he believes switching over should be a matter of choice. Seems like regardless of field, pro-choice becomes a hot debate.    - Nippulini - Tuesday, 11/03/09 10:18:28 EST Nip, I may have that book setting here to review. Sure would like someone else's words about it. I noticed a bunch of things that sounded like words from anvilfire. . . or at least that we agree on a lot of points.    - guru - Tuesday, 11/03/09 15:21:15 EST Oak Allergies: You never think about such trees producing pollen but oaks are one of the largest pollen producers. My brother developed an all over skin rash when he was working on an old house he had bought. The house, built in the early 1800's had been burned and he had to remove all the plaster and lath, scrape a ton of old lead paint off and replace some siding and window trim. He thought the rasp was a reaction to something in the old house. Tests showed he was allergic to the pollen of the huge old oak trees surrounding the house. He had been working without a shirt and wearing shorts so there was a LOT of exposed skin. . . He found that if he covered up when working outside the rash was not so bad. EDM and Chrome: Many big die blocks are H13 or similar. . .    - guru - Tuesday, 11/03/09 15:30:28 EST Yeah, H-13 is about all I EDM.    - grant - Tuesday, 11/03/09 16:36:44 EST Heh, cute. Oak trees and acorns will kill pigs. They say it's from the tannins, your borther may be allergic to that.    - NippulinI - Tuesday, 11/03/09 16:57:36 EST I made a knife handle out of Bolivian rosewood once. Hot, humid day, I wore short sleeves and a mask that made me sweat. Later that night I was eaten alive with a reaction to the wood dust. I used something like benedril cream and got it under control in 12 hrs. Won't use that wood again!!!!    quenchcrack - Tuesday, 11/03/09 18:43:03 EST Funny a lot of countries have been fattening up pigs on acorns for centuries (Spain, Italy, England...) The tropical hardwoods can get you *fast* if you don't take care. Thomas    Thomas P - Tuesday, 11/03/09 18:56:44 EST H-13 and EDM. That was the general thing that came to mind as I was just about to fall asleep. We EDM'ed lots of closed dies and the hot trim dies, all hot work tool steels. Most were brand name types like Finkle and HardTem A and Hardtem B. But had lots of chrome. In Stainless steel welding the chrome is in a valance other than Haxavalent state, but in the high energy state in the arc the chrome changes valance. Welding SS is an issue for this reason. I don't remember reading that EDM makes the chrome change valance, but I would suspect so. Always a good idea to keep industrial stuff off your skin, and out of you lungs.    Ptree - Tuesday, 11/03/09 19:05:56 EST Thomas, I'm just repeating what the pig experts told us when we got our little pot bellied pig. Maybe it's a species specific thing, maybe it's a load of bs. We never got a real chance to find out as the pig was compromised and died a month after we got her. Here's an "ewww" question. I have a bunch of old piercing needles we don't use anymore (not used). My plan is to turn them into a billet somehow. They are 440 steel, around 14 gauge. I've tried welding them together, hammering into a mold, and melting them in a homemade "crucible" (hollowed out firebrick), all to no avail. What's the best way for me to get around this issue? Also, seriously.. what is the best method for welding a mason nail to a quarter?    - NippulinI - Tuesday, 11/03/09 19:16:49 EST thanks for the link. My bellows operate the normal manner with the hand crank. The swinging handle i talk of is a t waist level and hangs down towards the ground. I have devised a pivitong rod deal to put a slight amount of upwards pressure on the ash dump door. When I pull on the swinging handle it will release the pressure latch and also open the ash dump door. The hot coals will then fall into a catch can with water in it so that I dont smoke out my shop. Is there a way I can upload a picture of my forge? It would be a lot easier to explain my rod setup if I could show you my forge. One more thing. My firepot/clinker breaker/ash pot is exactly the same as the one showed on page 18 of Charles McCraven's The Blacksmith's Craft. Thanks for any and all help. Charliey Reynolds    Charliey Reynolds - Tuesday, 11/03/09 19:27:58 EST Nip, I'd silver solder the nail to the quarter. Can't think of anything else that would work.    Mike BR - Tuesday, 11/03/09 19:35:43 EST could you send me some information on heat treating blades...such as an in depth process guide    Blayne Harris - Tuesday, 11/03/09 19:57:07 EST Blayne, There are literally encyclopedias on this subject. We have a rather rambling (needs a rewrite) FAQ on the subject of heat treating. A lot depends on the type of steel, the type of blade, the equipment available. Then there are books on blacksmithing and bladesmithing that discuss methods suitable to the typical small shop operation and then there are books that are for industry and metallurgists. If you are a serious maker then you will need some as references and others for education.    - guru - Tuesday, 11/03/09 20:34:18 EST Nippulini, We used to soft solder pennies to roofing tacks and pound them into asphalt. That was when they were copper.    Carver Jake - Tuesday, 11/03/09 20:36:45 EST Wood Allergies: In my life I have worked a lot of walnut, cherry, apple, ebony and other hardwoods known for causing allergic reactions. I was surprised when I saw warnings about skin problems related to working these and other fruit woods. But then. . . I'm allergic to cats and many others are not. As I noted above, allergies can be compounded. Once skin, nasal or lung tissue is inflamed, other allergens and bacteria can more easily cause problems.    - guru - Tuesday, 11/03/09 20:49:41 EST NIP: I agree on the silver solder, but use caution where You pull this prank. My uncle, a union carpenter told of a guy who tried to pick up the quarter nailed to the [wood] floor of a bar after work one day. The next day His framing hammer was on His belt when He came in. He pulled up the quarter and a big chunk of the floor around it. If You nail it into concret, a pilot hole might be a good idea, otherwise the quarter will be so beat up from driving it in nobody will recognise it as a quarter.    - Dave Boyer - Tuesday, 11/03/09 21:05:52 EST Pigs and Acorns: In the Eastern U.S. they used to let pigs roam free and forage for acorns. Today the Southern Appalachians are full of wild pigs as a result. Forges: Charliey, you an email the photo to me.    - guru - Tuesday, 11/03/09 21:42:26 EST Allergies. . . Nope, my brother can work Oak all he wants. But he takes care of how much exposed skin he has during the early summer oak pollen season. Oaks are hard to avoid in Virgina.    - guru - Tuesday, 11/03/09 21:52:33 EST Nipp My suggestion would be to put the needles in a small length of square tubing with one end welded shut....Fill up the void with powdered metal say 1084 or 15n20 weld the other end shut and weld on a handle...I've done roller chain that way and it came out pretty good...just my .02    - Arthur - Wednesday, 11/04/09 00:27:26 EST Would any type of steel filings work? I have lots of metal grindings and powder all over the place. One time I attempted forge welding a stack of the needles together in a closed die I added some stainless shavings. The forged needles got stuck in the die.    - Nippulini - Wednesday, 11/04/09 08:59:34 EST Hi guys, Anybody know of a source for soft wrought iron? Am looking to make some PA longrifle barrels and am looking for flat iron bars. Thanks    hammerman947 - Wednesday, 11/04/09 09:41:17 EST Welding and Powder: Nip, Metal from grinders is burnt and has a high percentage of wheel grit in it. It DOES NOT work as powdered metal for any purpose. Powders are either bought as powder OR you can use much coarser saw chips or machining chips. First step is to deoxidize all those needles, preferably by some mechanical method (hand sand, tumble. . ). Then pack a container with them and a dissimilar steel alloy IF you want a pattern. Seal, heat and weld. Container welding prevents oxidation but you need CLEAN metal to start. Using a more weldable fill material helps make the process easier as well as providing some difference for pattern. The container, either tubing or stainless foil usually has a slight oxide coating and it does not weld well to the contents. If you want to be sure then line the container with a thin layer of package filling tissue paper or newsprint. Use a minimum (single layer). An alternate method to using fill is to seal the pieces in the container with a very small vent hole. Put a drop of kerosene or deisel fuel in the vent. When heated the oil burns off using up the oxygen in the container. Then the whole is taken at welding heat to a hydraulic press and compressed together to weld. As with all these process they require practice as well as understanding how they work and LUCK!    - guru - Wednesday, 11/04/09 10:12:35 EST Hammerman947, please see ourWrought Iron FAQ R&B Wagner AKA J.G. Braun was selling pure iron in the US put they no longer do so. If you want pure iron you will need to order it from overseas. You can also purchase reprocessed and rolled wrought iron from the RealWroughtIron co. in England. Otherwise your best bet at reasonable cost is a good quality SAE 1018-20 (usually cold drawn bar).    - guru - Wednesday, 11/04/09 11:36:20 EST I have been looked at possible substances to use as a forge coating. Firebricks are made of compressed alumina and silica. The more alumina added, the harder the firebrick. Alumina is aluminum oxide, the same substance used for making grind rocks. Aluminum oxide is a thermal conductor. Now, the color white is a heat-light reflector as it reflects all spectrums of light. Now, from what I understand, there is a clay called Tennessee ball clay and when it dries, it turns white. It looks like alumina could be mixed with the white clay to make a coating, might need to mix silica with it to fuse it, may require some experimenting. Also, why can't other clays be used to coat inswool ? I have a sack of pearlite clay, why wouldn't that work ?    Mike T. - Wednesday, 11/04/09 11:37:55 EST There is very little difference between 1018 and A-36 (or none in most cases). Sometimes the carbon in A-36 will be lower. The higher yield is just from cold drawing, after forging they will be about the same: 1018 Mild Steel Alloy 1018 is the most commonly available of the cold-drawn steels. It is generally available in round rod, square bar, and rectangle bar. It has a good combination of all of the typical traits of steel - strength, some ductility, and comparative ease of machining. Chemically, it is very similar to A36 Hot Rolled steel, but the cold drawing process creates a better surface finish and better properties. 1018 Mild (low-carbon) steel Minimum Properties Ultimate Tensile Strength, psi 63,800 Yield Strength, psi 53,700 Elongation 15.0% Rockwell Hardness B71 Chemistry Iron (Fe) 98.81 - 99.26% Carbon (C) 0.15 - 0.20% Manganese (Mn) 0.6 - 0.9% Phosphorus (P) 0.04% max Sulfur (S) 0.05% max A36 Mild Steel ASTM A36 steel is the most commonly available of the hot-rolled steels. It is generally available in round rod, square bar, rectangle bar, as well as steel shapes such as I-Beams, H-beams, angles, and channels. The hot roll process means that the surface on this steel will be somewhat rough. Note that its yield strength is also significantly less than 1018 - this means that it will bend much more quickly than will 1018. Finally, machining this material is noticeably more difficult than 1018 steel, but the cost is usually significantly lower. ASTM A36 Mild (low-carbon) steel Minimum Properties Ultimate Tensile Strength, psi 58,000 - 79,800 Yield Strength, psi 36,300 Elongation 20.0% Chemistry Iron (Fe) 99% Carbon (C) 0.18 - 0.26% Manganese (Mn) 0.75% Copper (Cu) 0.2% Phosphorus (P) 0.04% max Sulfur (S) 0.05% max  A lot of cold drawn is just made from A-36 that didn't make the cut usually because it was rolled undersize. The cold drawers just pickle, lube and draw it through a die.    - grant - Wednesday, 11/04/09 12:03:41 EST Forge Coatings: Mike, Refractory manufacture and science is a very specialized field. While some of the substances needed are commonly available many others are not or must be bought in industrial quantities. Note that "white" is best for reflecting white light, not "all spectrums". In high temperature applications you want a high IR (infrared) reflector. The proper color for this has nothing to do with the way things appear to the human eye. Clays vary greatly in their chemistry and particularly high temperature resistance. Typical "ball clay" and most common pottery clays are not very good at high temperatures. Common white pottery clay will boil and foam at typical forge temperatures. Try it. If you want to know the particular WHYs then do the research. Find the chemistry, look up the melting and boiling points, manufacturing methods, applications. . . Its not easy in this very specialized field. You may need to accumulate a specialized library. Why reinvent the wheel when what you want is ITC-100? It is commercially available and sold in small quantities so that anyone can afford it. It is the highest IR reflectance material available and is resistant to temperatures far in excess to that in a forge. It is a non-toxic water based material making it safe and easy to use.    - guru - Wednesday, 11/04/09 13:06:52 EST Mike, you can also order a bag of bubble alumina refractory coating from Darrin Ellis (google him for more info). It fires out to a bubbly silver finish and is highly flux resistant, something ITC 100 is not. ITC 100 is a better IR reflector as far as I know. Most of the guys I know line the inswool/kaowool with about half an inch of either Satanite or Mizzou, topped with ITC if they want a little more heat. Me, I still use coal. What can I say, I'm a luddite.    Alan-L - Wednesday, 11/04/09 13:38:46 EST Refractories: A number of years ago a fellow that uses several of the FlameFast ceramic chip forges asked me if I could find the source of the chips or a replacement. While they are heat resistant they still break down slowly and are a consumable that must be replaced. He knew the chips were imported to Britian to the U.S. then resold. This added a lot of expense. Of course the manufacture is not going to tell you what they are, its their "trade secret". I called a couple of refractory manufacturers (all now part of Habersion Walker) and asked it they knew what the material was. I received and sent a sample to the company. They determined the material to be "synthetic mullite". Ironically the natural form of this material originaly was found on the British Isle of Mull, thus "Mullite". Also ironically the synthetic mullite is made from kyanite which is mined and processed in Virginia near where I live. Mullite is made by grinding kyanite to a powder mixing with water, binders and extruding it into rods that are dried then fired at high temperature. The fired rods are then crushed, ground and screened into different sizes. The product is used as the filler or aggregate in many refractory bricks and refractory cements. The problem we had was finding it in the size pieces we needed in less than freight car loads. There was no incentive for me to continue this search but I can probably find it now that I know what I am looking for. I also spent some time looking for a refractory binder for another project. After some research I found a place that sold me a pint bottle and was told it was available in gallon. Well, apparently I talked the right guy the first time. . The next time I called the only quantities available were 40/55 gallon drums. The stuff was over $200/gallon. . . so a minimum purchase was over $8,000. This is not unusual when you get into areas of industrial materials.    - guru - Wednesday, 11/04/09 13:58:53 EST Grant, From your numbers, *some* A-36 could be lower carbon than *some* 1018. But it looks like A-36 would never have carbon below the low end of the range for 1018, though it might have carbon above that range.    Mike BR - Wednesday, 11/04/09 16:59:45 EST Nipp.. I get my powdered metal from Kelly Cupples..Here's a link to him http://refractory.elliscustomknifeworks.com/    - Arthur - Wednesday, 11/04/09 18:31:20 EST Nipp Sorry..When you get to that site click on "Steel for knifemaking and Damascus"    - Arthur - Wednesday, 11/04/09 18:34:12 EST Mike BR: Yeah, a lot of things are possible, just wanted to note that buying 1018 is no guarantee that it is "better" than A-36, and if it is, the difference is probably more slight than many think. And of course we have no idea what "typical" would be in either case.    - grant - Wednesday, 11/04/09 19:22:40 EST SAE 1018 sure machines a LOT more consistently than A36    - guru - Wednesday, 11/04/09 20:32:02 EST Thanks for the info on refactory coatings, I would not know too much if I didn't get comments from yall on this site. Another thing is waterglass. I think when it is mixed with powered vermiculite, it can be used as a glue in refactories. Waterglass will melt at 250 degr. or so, but after the water is evaporated, it will not melt until 1500 degr. This mix might be good for fastening inswool to refactory doors.    Mike T. - Wednesday, 11/04/09 21:08:45 EST A36: The spec I saw listed max carbon from 0.25- 0.29% depending on thickness and manganese from 0.8 to 1.20% and from .85-1.35% in really heavy sections. I expect this is why it can be more responsive to heat treatment than 1018.    - Dave Boyer - Wednesday, 11/04/09 21:12:14 EST I don't know about "consistently", but it sure makes a better chip and finish. Not so much 1018 VS A-36 as it is cold drawn VS hot rolled. Depends on the machining too. If you just machine off one side of cold drawn, it will bow like crazy. Dave, I got the numbers from AISI and ASTM.    - grant - Wednesday, 11/04/09 21:58:09 EST Gluing Ceramic Blanket: We've used a variety of things including ITC-100 for gluing blanket. However, the problem with blanket materials is that they are made such that the lay of the fibers is flat with the material. This means it splits along these lines very easily. So, if you glue it the only part that will stay put for long is the layer that is penetrated by the "glue". Most blanket will just barely support its own weight when glued but since it loses strength when hot (just like most materials) the blanket will seperate just beyond the glue line when heated. IF the blanket is supported by the frame of the door then gluing it might work for a while. However, pining it with screws the way NC-Tools does works well. Where we use ITC-100 to glue blanket is onto holes in light refractory surfaces that need repair then cap the entirety with the ITC-100. Thin compounds like a sodium silicate solution are absorbed by ceramic blanket like a sponge. To add enough to glue it you end up penetrating most of the blanket. All that water must be dried out then fired. It makes a mess. When I tried to make blanket with a ceramic binder the 1" blanket "shrank" to 1/3 its thickness due to the weight of the solution while wet. The dried result was 1/4 the original thickness and had the characteristics of a soda cracker. Heavy bodied slurries like ITC-100 work as glues because they stay on or near the surface of the blanket. It doesn't hurt to experiment but this can be an expensive bit of R&D. Build it fire it, watch it fall apart. . . build it again. . .    - guru - Wednesday, 11/04/09 22:21:56 EST Guru, You are absolutely right. When I have ideas, I like to see the responses on this site. I know it saves time and money. I glued some inswool to the refactory doors with JB Weld and then coated them with satanite and ITC100. After several heatings, seems to have held up very well. I also noted that you talked about inconel wire, would that be good for the doors ?    Mike T. - Thursday, 11/05/09 14:36:02 EST The wire is commonly used in building lightweight refractory panels. It is not used on the surface but deep inside the panels. The thing about furnaces and forges is that the insulation works against time and radiant cooling. As time passes the insulation get hotter and hotter deeper into the material. Eventually the outside is almost as hot as the inside. This heat transfers to the supporting structure or shell. The temperature of the shell is then dependent on the rate that it gives up heat to the surrounding air. I have folks ask all the time about adding blanket to the OUTSIDE of their forge or furnace. YES, this increases the insulation efficiency but it puts the steel shell between insulation where it can get overheated (red heat, scale, lose strength) and collapse. If you want the outer shell of a furnace to be cooler there are two routes to go. More insulation inside, OR an external shell with an air space with moving air (via convection OR fan). Two external shells will reduce the exterior to just noticeably above room temperature.    - guru - Thursday, 11/05/09 16:03:20 EST I saw a program ( How Its Made )about the iron industry. There are two main sources for iron, Hematite and Magnetite. The soil will be black in color, you can run a magnet through it and if there is any iron, the magnet will pick it up. Hematite produces about 20% iron and magnetite produces about 60% iron. I looked on the internet to find magnetite deposits in Arkansas, the only one I could find is in Hot Springs county around Magnet Cove. I have heard that when looking for gold, you want to locate black sand. I guess when water runs down the mountains, iron bearing minerals as well as gold is washed down. For those living around the mountains, magnetite should be easy to locate.    Mike T. - Thursday, 11/05/09 20:07:55 EST Grant, I don't plan to buy the specs from ASTM, so I used this listing: http://www.brown-strauss.com/b_s_a36.htm    - Dave Boyer - Thursday, 11/05/09 20:49:57 EST Mike, Its all about the amount of metal per ton of ore. Some places the ore is 90% or more metal and in other places 10% or less. At some point it costs too much to dig, move, process, smelt and dispose of the waste. In precious metals they move tons per ounce but in iron it needs to be a high percentage to be economical. I do not know the numbers but I am sure it is not hard to find. This is even more important in small operations where the ore may be dug by hand and hauled on one's back. . . Often there are small very rich deposits of ore that are not big enough or close enough to transportation to be commercially viable but they are great for a micro operation. On the other hand, just because the geological map show it doesn't mean its close enough to the surface to do an individual any good. While having easy to access ore is one thing they used to locate ironworks where there was water power, fuel, flux AND ore. Ore was often easier to find than the full combination. Ore near the surface was highly valued.    - guru - Thursday, 11/05/09 22:19:45 EST hey guru, I am building a forge for a part of my senior project, I talked to a blacksmith and he told me to use a cast iron skillet as a fire pot. when I got home I was at a loss because I realized cast iron is second to impossible to drill or press a hole through. Do you know of anyway that I could make a hole in the cast iron? I saw the brake drum plans and all but I want room for coal storage etc and it is not big enough for what I need. Any suggestions would help greatly.    matt - Friday, 11/06/09 10:30:21 EST Almost all igneous rocks contain magnetite often as small grains. As the rocks weather these are released into the environment can can be concentrated by streams or even wave action. This is the ironsand that Japan used for smelting tamahagane in a tatara furnace. It can be found by dragging a magnet in a creekbed in a location where it may be found. Or the black scale that forms on your steel as you forge it is also magnetite. It's a good material for a bloomery operation. Thomas    Thomas P - Friday, 11/06/09 13:24:25 EST DIY Projects: Matt, There are different ways to approach such projects. It is possible to build projects with almost no tools and very little cutting or drilling but you must select your materials carefully. The alternative is to "man-up" and do some hard work by hand. Cast iron saws and drills easier than most steels and cookware is relatively thin so it is possible to drill by hand. Drilling can be done with an electric drill OR a manual brace and bit. A brace and bit is better in many cases because it turns slow. Most electric drills are designed for drilling wood and plastics, their speed being 10 to 20 times faster than for drilling iron and steel. Turning too fast burns up the bit. IF the drill has a variable speed control then you want to operated it at a slow steady speed of about 1 or 2 rotations per second. Watch the drill chuck and count fast. IF you can keep up then the drill is turning about the right speed for iron/steel. Next, you need pressure. Push hard and straight. The bit should always be making chips. If it stops making chips then it is rubbing and dulling the bit while making a hard spot in the metal. This will burn up the bit. Cast iron also saws well with a hand hack saw. You just need good coarse blades (not the wavy ones designed for sheet metal) and some patience. Push the saw, lift on the return and push again using long steady strokes. Back to Easy: One reason a brake drum or wheel (NOT a disk brake rotor!) is recommended is that they are full of holes. Wheels have extra holes but they are easier to patch than to make. A common rear axle brake drum has a center hole of about 1.5" (38mm) which is sufficient for the blast. It is surrounded by four or five holes on a ~5-6" (125 - 150mm) bolt circle. These can be use for attaching a floor flange or legs. Often they are too far apart to go through the floor flange (a piece of plumbing hardware) but you can use washers to span the gap and clamp the flange instead of bolting through. Use your imagination. Automobile wheels have the same exact hole patterns as above but the plain pressed steel wheels (cheap plain ones) often have gaps and lightening holes that can be used for attaching legs. The excess holes can be patched with pieces of sheet metal and a few screws or nuts and bolts. When I built my first forge I had some advantages in that I knew how to use tools. However, my tools available for this project were limited. I was 15-16 and still in high school when I built it. To make the three large 7/8" holes in the side of the top wheel for the legs I started with about a 3/16 (5 mm) hole made with an electric drill. These I worried out to about 5/8" using a brace and the largest bit we had THEN filing them a bit. Then I used a 3/4" handled punch (the only actual blacksmith tool I owned) to enlarge the hole to 7/8". The punch tapered from about 5/8" to 15/16". It was a lot of work making these holes but you use what you have. After those holes there was only ONE drilled hole. The handle that operated the blast gate was forged from a RR-spike using the incomplete forge. The hole to fit the shaft was punhed (my first hot punched hole) and then a 3/16" hole was drilled from the side and then taped for a 1/4"-20 set screw. The rest was assembled using things that all ready had holes in them (select junk). The bottom of the legs were forced into holes and held in place by being sprung out at the top. If you select your materials carefully and use 3 floor flanges on the tuyere (one to attach a rotating ash dump gate) then you can build this project without drilling any holes and very few tools. But generally DIY projects assume that you have or will obtain,(purchase, beg or borrow) an electric drill and a hack saw. You should also have screw drivers, pliers and a wrench or two. Then there are MUCH more primitive forges. See our series of articles (in progress - not really ready for release. . .) The Forge, Ancient and Modern, Part 1: The pit Forge The Forge, Ancient and Modern, Part 2: Beyond the Pit If you want coal reserve in a primitive to build forge see the forge in the Forge and Anvil Do-It-Yourself Blacksmith Projects It is made from a light duty wheel barrow pan which con be purchased for less than $50. This is actually a raised pit forge built in a steel pan rather than a wooden box. They wood box type was very common in early America as it was raised to a level Europeans were used to working and required almost NO materials other than local wood (had hewn or sawed) and some dirt. A manufactured tuyere and bellows or blower was used.    - guru - Friday, 11/06/09 13:40:02 EST I've been drilling 3/4" holes in 1/2" steel by hand lately and it's not a lot of fun even when using a cole drill; but it's what I had to hand and it does work! Helps when you can sharpen your bits yourself First thing: are you using a decent bit? Many cheap modern bits are only good for drilling wood if that! When I last drilled a hole in cast iron for air handing I drilled s circle of smaller holes and tapped the center plug with a hammer and popped it out and then dressed the hole a bit. Thomas    Thomas P - Friday, 11/06/09 18:27:44 EST "cole drill"??????? Sorry, don't follow you.    - grant - Friday, 11/06/09 20:12:33 EST Grant, its one of those gimmicky step drills sold to replace a set of drills.    - guru - Friday, 11/06/09 21:57:09 EST If this site's got it right, a cole drill is sort of a 19th century mag drill. http://rustyiron.com/engines/coledrill/index.html    Mike BR - Saturday, 11/07/09 09:13:00 EST Ah. . . I blew that one. . My Dad called these an "Old Man". Not sure why. Maybe all the cranking made one an old man. . . Another version had the clamps and a mechanism like a blacksmiths hand crank drill. These were heavier and took two people to setup but would drill much faster due to the gearing and flywheel. For this type work I often just use a common brace with a metal cutting bit. Up to about 1/2" you can drill by hand if you provide sufficient pressure. For more pressure a beam drill was used with a simple brace type crank. The size of the hole depends on the amount of leverage you apply. For a standard brace the leverage is only suitable to about 1/2" to 5/8" for a person of average strength. At 3/4" you need more leverage.    - guru - Saturday, 11/07/09 09:55:07 EST I have a Hay Budden anvil that has broken at the waist. As I prepared the two halves for the repair it became clear from the grinding sparks that the W1 steel begins at the fracture. So, with the two different kinds steel ( the bottom half being wrought or mild steel and the top being W1, I imagine near 1% carbon +/-.) What kind of welding rod would you suggest? Your thoughts would be appreciated. Thank you.    Dean - Saturday, 11/07/09 16:06:21 EST Climax Blower: I have aquired a Buffalo Forge Climax blower. Opposite side reads: list 1266. It was majorly frozen up. I was able to take it apart, clean it, and start to assemble it. I have a few questions I hoped you could answer. 1: Are there any seals or fiber washers? 2: Should the oil be filled to the plug almost on the bottom? 3: What kind of oil? 4: Do you know the cappacity of the blower? I assume it is bidirectional. 5: The crank is missing. Do you have a measurement on how long the crank should be from centerline of shaft to centerline of handle? 6: Finally, there is no flange. There is an angled area opposite of where the pipe attaches. Was there some sort of u shaped clamp to attach it to the pipe? Thank you for all your help. This is a wonderfull website. Milton    Milton - Saturday, 11/07/09 16:38:59 EST Guru, I'm an apprentice with a very basic understanding of blacksmithing, more practical than theoretical and the forge I work in is basic in tools; i have no grinder, no vice, etc. I essentially have an anvil, hammers and tongs (I work at a historical interpretation site). I've been trying to make an irish trinity symbol for a while now and am running into dead end after dead end. My most recent attempt involved making it in 3 pieces and trying to somehow tie it together, but the iron started breaking on me. Is there any chance you or your helpers could provide me with plans to making a decorative irish trinity symbol or point me in the right direction to acquiring plans? Many thanks    Carl Guthrie - Saturday, 11/07/09 17:23:47 EST Anvil Joint Weld: Dean, Preheat the parts to about 350°F in the weld zone then make a pass, clean and peen (use a needle scaler if you have one). Then make another pass the same until done and let cool slowly. An E70 or E80 rod will be fine. Even though the top is hardenable you do not want a hard joint, just a strong one.    - guru - Saturday, 11/07/09 17:24:10 EST Buffalo Blower: There are no seals. The blowers leak. If not covered with oil they are not well enough oiled. 20W oil or automatic transmission fluid works but if the gears are worn out you should use heavier. Normally they are oiled from the top and the plug is a drain/overflow. The cranks were often adjustable in length for comfort but some were fixed length, about 12". Average cranking speed was 40 RPM. This produced enough air for a "medium" size forge. Yes they are bidirectional. However, the worm drives tend to create a lot of thrust one way or the other and depending on gear or bearing wear like to run smoother on way than the other. Note that SOME blowers are NOT bidirectional because they only have thrust bearings on one end of the worm. These have a direction arrow cast into the housing. Attachments points varied Some forges had brackets cast into their sides, other had brackets that attached to the blower then a bar that slid in the bracket to adjust position. And many sat on seperate stands with three legs. The pipe attachment point was just a round outlet. Prefabricated pipes sometimes fit around the outlet, sometimes there were adaptor flanges. Due to the diameters the parts must be made to fit unless you have a complete outfit.    - guru - Saturday, 11/07/09 18:12:02 EST Irish Trinity Symbol: Carl, The one I am familiar with is a type of Celtic Knot with three corners and is endless. As an endless loop there would be only ONE weld to make it complete. This can be bent freehand or on a jig, hot or cold. After welding or joining the one corner the other corners could be tightened and finished. Since it is 3 equal lengths then the bar should be marked. Do not use a punch or chisel at this will cause cracking later. A dull round edge chisel would work best. Personally I would bend 3 pieces cold, saw and file the overlap notches and gas weld the corners. . . Then clean up and chase with a chisel. An alternative is to cut the part from plate and chase lines where the bars "overlap". Generally when these thing crack and fall apart they have been heated too many times in the forge or over heated (burned).    - guru - Saturday, 11/07/09 19:58:56 EST Another method. . . As I described bend the semi-circles cold, notch to fit including the corners with a lap joint. Note that all three parts are identical. Then drill and rivet the corners with small flush rivets and the cross points the same. Then chase the decoration as desired. This would work in any size stock larger than you would want to cut the part out of sheet or plate.    - guru - Sunday, 11/08/09 00:08:59 EST Heat treating: I made my first wood chisel from scratch today, from a leaf spring. I am currently in the University of Hard Knocks, 101 :-). I quenched in water, vertically. It was a long chisel so I dipped the lower 3 inches, cleaned the slag, and planned to watch the heat go down for temporing, and then quench again. I noticed that the chisel bent, and unfortunitly since one end was still hot I tapped it with a hammer. Ooops :-( broke the end off. I noticed that the grain was very course. Questions: How do I keep from bending the chisel? Why was the grain so large? Thank you for all your help. Milton    milton - Sunday, 11/08/09 16:25:11 EST Milton, Warping from quenching is the result of shape (uneven thicknesses), uneven heating, forging technique (working unevenly heated metal too long). . OR just plain contrariness of the metal. Large grain is the result of holding at heat too long OR quenching at too high a temperature. Grain growth from holding at too high a temperature too long can be cured by heating UP to the A3 point (approximately non-magnetic) temperature and allowing to cool. Then when hardening gently heat UP to that point and quench in the proper quenchant. Never, heat above the hardening point and let cool to that point prior to quenching. Always heat UP to that point. This is called a "rising" heat. For spring steels an oil quench is often recommended. For oil or water quench the quenchant should be warmed about room temperature to prevent shock or cracking. See our FAQ on using Junk Yard Steels.    - guru - Sunday, 11/08/09 17:42:24 EST Milton I think most auto springs are 5160..which should definately be quenched in warm oil. Also clean the slag before or after HT not during. Good luck    - arthur - Sunday, 11/08/09 18:13:23 EST I just bought an anvil and Im trying to find out who made it and possibly when.It says Wright on it,but doesnt say Peter or Henry.The numbers on the waist are 0 3 L3.It has a square hole running horizontal through the waist and one in the bottom running vertical.Someone else suggested that the L might be the corner of the stamp.Hope someone can help me out on this one    Casey Alexander - Sunday, 11/08/09 19:24:16 EST Casey, See Hundred Weight Calculator The L is probably misreading a 1. The holes in the body probably do not pass through. Those are handling holes for porter bars or special tongs. If you cannot read the marking then clean with a wire brush then make a "rubbing" using tracing paper of heavy wrapping tissue and charcoal or a large soft pencil held on its side. Often a rubbing will show details that you cannot otherwise see. All the features you list indicate it is a British anvil. This means it could be one of hundreds of makes.    - guru - Sunday, 11/08/09 19:38:45 EST I have a pretty good finish for my ironwork when made in the shop (primer/finish/etc). What do you recommend for a "travel finish" that can be applied quickly at a demo. I have been brushing the work and spraying with industrial enamel spray paint but I know that this is a poor finish at best. Any suggestions for a more durable finish that can be applied in front of a crowd?    - Nathan - Monday, 11/09/09 08:47:09 EST Nathan, This is tough. I carried flat black spray paint for between demos and a beeswax and turps for immediate use. Barbecue black for fireplace items. Often immediate sale items are wire brushed by hand and handed to the customer. I'd tell them to oil or paint the item if it went outdoors. Its about all you can do.    - guru - Monday, 11/09/09 10:54:47 EST that's what I figured. keep up the great work!!    - Nathan - Monday, 11/09/09 12:59:31 EST Junkyard Steels: One of my friends from the Naval Air Station came by with the metal skid off a glider to add to my scrap pile of useful stock. When the skidplate thins from 1/4" to 1/8" they are routinely replaced. "So, Bruce; what sort of steel is it?" "It's A-36; sort of the modern equivalent of mild steel." "Wow! How do you know that?" "Somebody wrote 'A-36' on the back of the plate in bright yellow paint." :-) Sunny and mild on the banks of the Potomac. Preparing for Camp Fenby Open Forge this Saturday. Visit your National Parks: www.nps.gov Go viking: www.longshipco.org    Bruce Blackistone (Atli) - Monday, 11/09/09 14:47:14 EST Irish Trinity symbol---must be the shamrock used by St Patrick himself to explain the trinity to the Irish people! Cole Drills have been discussed here before. They are handy for drilling harder steels as you can increase the pressure a lot and it's a slow speed on the drill bit. They are also nice in that you can keep one in the truck behind the seat and use it when you may be a long way from an electric source. "Old Man"---cause it gets old fast cranking one through thick steel! Fast demo finishes: I like parafin wax: cheap, nontoxic and helps make the piece feel smoother to the touch. Atli; you are in a moist area as I recall---keeping the ship in a place a bit less wet than the swamp. I would think of putting the floor high enough to be able to have *good* air flow under it and make sure all screening is sturdy---gravel screens would work well. Thomas    Thomas P - Monday, 11/09/09 16:19:02 EST I agree with Thomas. Only last night I was being filmed by a TV crew. Made a hook and a nail to use on it. So I coated it with what I would call candle wax and gave it to the girl doing the interviews. I save any wax that drips off candles and any ends and then melt it down and cast it into a block. Then just rub that onto a slightly warmed prodouct.    philip in china - Monday, 11/09/09 17:20:35 EST Heat Treating, Thank you for the help on making my chisel. I know I have read multiple times how to do this, but it is amazing how much you have to really know and practice to pull it off. Looking on the color chart I deffinately heated the steel too high before quenching. So I understand correctly: I am looking for around 1400 degrees farenheit before I quench? Does temp/medium of the quenchant effect bending, or just cracking? On the bending at heat treat. I know everything is relative, but I am trying to get a referance. Lets assume it bent from forging stress. I only slightly forged the bevels in on the three edges. I started to say I do not think that would have made a differance, but in hind sight the chisel bent on its flat side, so now I am not so sure. In general do I have to be very concerned about forging equally on all sides, or just mildly? In the future, if something bends, do you heat it back up, straighten, and reheat treat, or would you try to overbend? Thank you. Milton    milton - Monday, 11/09/09 17:35:38 EST Guru, Where can I get plans for the Macdonald Rooling Mill? I've tried to get in touch with Larson Books and have gotten no reply. Also, what type of steel would you use for the rollers?    mike s - Monday, 11/09/09 18:25:39 EST Milton: If You do the "blacksmith normalise" before hardening, straighten the part then. After hardening but before tempering is the time when the steel is most vulnerable. Don't mess with it then, temper while You can barely touch it [150f]. While at tempering temperature, You might be able to straighten a little bit, particularly if You are tempering at fairly high temperatures [blue color range]. Tempering for a full hour at temperature in an oven with a thermostat is a good method. A wood chisel should remain pretty hard for finish work, temper about 400f for the cutting end.    - Dave Boyer - Monday, 11/09/09 20:55:22 EST Milton, Depending on the steel blacksmiths use the non-magnetic point for hardening. Heat until a magnet stops sticking, then quench. This is correct for 60 point and above steels. Lower carbon steels need a little higher heat. If done right there should not be too much or any warp. As Dave noted you want to temper ASAP. A small toaster oven gets hot enough for many tempers and can hold a 400 to 500 F point long enough to get a through temper. The quenchant type generally does not cause warping but how the part is put into the quench and the movement afterwards (a swirling or mixing motion is recommended) can make a difference. On blades and flat items quenching on a flat will pull the steel to one side while the other is still hot and plastic. The result is a serious warp. So can the induced stresses I mentioned previously. So, for each shape there is an optimum quench entry and motion. But obsessionally warping happens no matter what. But understanding it can help    - guru - Monday, 11/09/09 21:43:14 EST Mike, I will write to Hugh McDonald for you. But I suggest you call Norm. His number is on our Getting Started page I think.    - guru - Monday, 11/09/09 21:45:19 EST Thanks Guru!    mike s - Tuesday, 11/10/09 05:40:08 EST Milton, If you're going to stick with the leaf spring, quench in oil. It will get the job done, but is slightly slower and less harsh than water. If no oil, heat the water till it's tepid or luke warm. Many wood tools with cutting edges can be tempered to a copper color or purple.    Frank Turley - Tuesday, 11/10/09 11:50:20 EST Here is a paper on heat treating for smiths on the Houston Area Blacksmith site: http://habairon.org/Aug09/Basic%20Heat%20Treating%20for%20Blacksmiths.pdf    quenchcrack - Tuesday, 11/10/09 12:09:44 EST Hi all. Does anyone have a suggestion for what would be the best way to drill a 1/4 inch hole into a small chunk of granite without cracking it? I want to use it as a base for a small candle holder, but am hesitant to use an impact drill. Cheers, Craig    Craig - Tuesday, 11/10/09 18:27:25 EST Heat Treating Many Thanks to all who helped me understand this more. With multiple answers I realize several mistakes I made. Milton    milton - Tuesday, 11/10/09 18:41:09 EST Milton, if You only take the last 1" above critical temperature when hardening, You will have less warpage. I t will take a lot of use & sharpening to use up an inch of a chisel if You sharpen mostly with hand stones.    - Dave Boyer - Tuesday, 11/10/09 22:03:50 EST Craig, Why not use a regular carbide tip masonry drill bit in a conventional electric drill? Maybe start with a smaller bit and work up.    Carver Jake - Wednesday, 11/11/09 10:22:38 EST I think carbide bits run at high speed in a drill press work but I am not sure. The press insures lots of pressure. Many years ago I had a friend that made match holders from blocks of black granite that he drilled 1" diameter holes about 2" deep. Since it was being done in a machine shop I think coolant was flooding the work. He made a big deal over having "invented" the process he used. . . so apparently it was not too terribly easy.    - guru - Wednesday, 11/11/09 11:45:08 EST They make carbide "glass and tile" bits. I'd describe them as spade bits with sort of an eliptical point. That's what I'd try first if I were doing it. No impact, of course.    Mike BR - Wednesday, 11/11/09 11:53:39 EST I have a piece of s-7 that I want to make a planishing hammer out of. What should I quench it in. Thanks Tinker    tinker - Wednesday, 11/11/09 18:18:15 EST I drilled some 1/2" holes in granite using a regular good quality masonry bit in a drill press. I was amazed how quickly it drilled. It was MUCH faster than some drilling that I had done with a hammer drill in granite that came from the same area.    - JNewman - Wednesday, 11/11/09 19:41:08 EST Tinker-S7: Air quench from 1725f. Temper at 400f or a little higher.    - Dave Boyer - Wednesday, 11/11/09 19:45:11 EST Help! I need to upset a 1 inch square bar for a project. any suggestions?? Thanks in advance! Kia    Kia - Thursday, 11/12/09 09:36:38 EST That's a question that makes me ask even more questions. How much upset? How wide? DO you need the upset the be at the end or the middle? So on.....    - Nippulini - Thursday, 11/12/09 10:15:33 EST Upsetting: As Nip noted, your question needs to be defined better. If the bar is long enough its own mass can be used to create the upset. Heat and thrust it downward onto an anvil on the floor, upsetting block. . . something massive at a convenient height. This works with bars 3 foot long and longer up to where it is difficult to handle. Long bars can be guided by an overhead support if you have space. If you have a swage block with a slightly loose 1" hole and the piece is long enough the block can be used to support the part over an anvil. The minimum shank without cutting it off would be the thickness of the swage block OR you could put a cut off piece in the hole to shorten the hole depth. To make the distance longer raise the block or lower the anvil. With the work well supported the upset is relatively easy to make with a sledge. Note that holes with a heavy radius on the corners are best for making upsets. If you do not have the right size/shape hole in a block make a bolster plate to fit. For other ways using a swage block see Swage Block How-to"    - guru - Thursday, 11/12/09 10:53:49 EST More Upsetting: If making a heavy upset the tendency is for the metal to mushroom. To prevent this you need to have a good through heat and dress the end of the bar to a crown or rounded end. When struck this focuses the force into the center of the bar. If you know the mass needed then do the math. How much bar do you need to upset? If you start short you cannot get there and will waste a lot of time and energy. If you need a large mass then cool the stuck end so that the upset starts farther down the bar or where supported. After the bar end of the upset is near full size then the end can be reheated and worked into the upset. Also note that starting large and drawing out a shank can be easier than creating the mass on a smaller bar.    - guru - Thursday, 11/12/09 11:23:43 EST sorry for not being very specific.. i'm trying to upset the end of an 1 inch square. i will need to upset about an inch and a half of it. the bar is about 26 inches long. I tried to "smash" it onto a thick steel plate on the floor. is there another way to do this?    Kia - Thursday, 11/12/09 14:03:13 EST Kia, You are still not being clear. Upset into what shape? How big? How heavy a plate on the floor? Heavy is relative. A piece of 1" thick plate 2 feet square is "heavy" but it is not the kind of compact mass that makes it an anvil. What tools do you have available? That length of bar weighs 7.4 pounds. About the weight of a light sledge. A little light for upsetting but not too light to do the job. This size would be upset on the anvil top using good gloves in the event your hand slip. Other ways. . see my posts and links above. Lots of ways with a swage block or bolster plate. Many anvils have 1" hardy holes and a few clear the foot so that a long piece could be rested on a block on the floor. I upset small stock clamped in the vise. Heavy stock like this would take a very heavy vise. I've seen quite a bit of upsetting done sideways so that the sledge can be swung like a golf club. Takes a heavy anchor such as a weld platten to back up the work.    - guru - Thursday, 11/12/09 14:35:55 EST Kia, If you upset using the bar as the weight down onto a plate, the bar will upset a bit up from the end of the bar - not so much mushroom. If you upset using a hammer, it will tend to upset more at the end, causing mushrooming. Use to suit your need.    david bernard - Thursday, 11/12/09 18:07:27 EST Question - Mounting of a firepot. I'm assembling my permanent forge using a steel shelf as a base then covering it with a layer of bricks, and when looking at other forges I didn't twig onto whether the lip of the firepot rests on the bricks of the table. Or does the lip go below the bricks? fff fff BBBBBBBff ffBBBBBBB OR BBBBBB BBBBBB ssssssssfff fffssssssss fff fff f f sssssff ffssssss fff fff f f Fire pot on bricks or under bricks Some insight or opinion would be appreciated. A warm (for a Nov. eve) North of the Lake Ontario. Don    Don - Thursday, 11/12/09 18:57:41 EST Ref: My question about fire pot location; the text diagram I tried posting fialed miserably my apologies. Don    Don - Thursday, 11/12/09 19:02:28 EST Don, My opinion is to forget the bricks on top. Just drop the firepot into the properly sized, steel hearth cavity and line the hearth with concrete, a cement and sand mix. The lining won't be all that thick; it will be level with the pot flange. If the forge is permanent, use the bricks for the base and chimney leaving an opening underneath for the ash dump. Many manufactured hearths were about 24" x 30", and the firepot location was eccentric of center, a little to the left of center if you're right handed. That leaves a wider area on the right side of the hearth for extra coal and fire tools.    Frank Turley - Thursday, 11/12/09 19:26:00 EST Hi Folks I am looking for a source to purchase brass or bronze bar stock that has linear type knurling. Looking in sizes 3/8" and smaller. Even an extruded pattern on the od of stock may be workable as well. I checked Mcmaster Carr, Grainger, Thomas Register and internet with no luck. Hoping someone may know a stone to look under I had not found. Not enough hours in day or enough profit if I stop to anneal and knurl stock. Thanks in advance.    - Bob Woods - Thursday, 11/12/09 22:56:33 EST Knurled Rod Bob, I've never seen such material. The closest thing I have seen is drawn bronze gear stock. Note, I have SEEN it, but not a source for it. However, the way to make what you want is not by lathe knurling but by drawing or pushing through a die. The die could swage the grooves OR cut them. Cutting them would not require annealing and take about the same force. If you do not need very long lengths then they could be pushed through a cutting die with an arbor press. This would be very fast once the dies are made and setup.    - guru - Friday, 11/13/09 02:10:51 EST Bob, you should look at Lewis Brass, at www.lewisbrass.com they stock quite a few specialty brass products, although mostly tubing, not solid, but they have reeded, rope style, and various other knurled looking brass round tubing, as small as 3/8" OD. Depending on the length you need, there may be some lamp parts that will do what you want as well. Unfortunately, the wholesale lamp industry has "consolidated" a lot in the last 30 years- in other words, moved to china. The main remaining wholesaler is American DeRosa, which carries some brass tubing and parts, but is tough to buy small quantities from. Another possibility would be to have some small lengths made to order on a cnc lathe. There is a company in NYC, Liberty Brass, which makes small brass parts for the lighting and decorative furniture industries- they have some stock parts, and will make most anything custom, with a large CNC machine shop exclusively devoted to small decorative brass parts. www.libertybrass.com    - Ries - Friday, 11/13/09 12:14:24 EST Thank You Gents    - Bob Woods - Friday, 11/13/09 19:46:12 EST Guru I found drawn bronze gear stock. Not what I need. Source could be useful to someone. bostongear.com    - Bob Woods - Friday, 11/13/09 22:04:42 EST Hmmp, I've used the Boston Gear catalogs for decades and bought thousands of dollars of their products (gears and boxes) and did not notice the drawn stock. The stuff I saw was a variety of sizes in 12 foot lengths that had been scrapped and donated to the welding program at a Community College. Ranged from small pinons up to 1" gear stock.    - guru - Friday, 11/13/09 22:11:35 EST Grooved Stock: They make wooden dowels with broached grooves. Same dies might work for a limited amount of brass.    - guru - Friday, 11/13/09 22:13:15 EST Hail Guru and or helper. I am brand new to Blacksmithing. I'm fifteen. I have income. I am looking to build a coal forge. Honestly, I don't have any experience with metal working. I've been researching diligently though. If you could point me to some blueprints, that would be great. I have a good idea of how to do it. I'm incredibly excited about Blacksmithing, I am hoping to start learning some of the basics soon! Any other advice/reads/guides you could point me towards. Well, I'd like that.    Elijah - Saturday, 11/14/09 03:47:59 EST Elijah, Welcome to the world of blacksmithing. Have a peek at the plans page, available on this site by clicking on the navigate bar, upper right of this page. Also read the FAQ's for lots more good info, including how to get started. Please always use safty in the shop. If you don't have a set, the FIRST tools you need are a set of real safety glasses, and earplugs for when you are making lots of noise. Good lucj    ptree - Saturday, 11/14/09 07:47:56 EST And to be awake when you post. . . . Coal Forges vary greatly from a pit in the ground to classic brick forges that cost as much as an automobile. First, are you sure about coal? Coal is becoming more and more difficult to obtain other than ordering it by the bag and having it shipped by UPS. Local coal supplies may not be suitable as there are infinite grades of coal and only the best are really suitable for blacksmithing without a lot of frustrations. If you are going to use local coal I recommend that you build the cheapest possible forge (such as the brake drum forge on our plans page) and test the coal. Buy a bag of good coal and compare the two. Then decide if you are going to continue with coal. You can also burn charcoal (real lump 100% wood) in a "coal" forge. This is available at restaurant supplies and some big box stores. Briquettes are NOT satisfactory. The best modern coal forges are built with a cast firepot and matching tuyere coupled to a commercial blower (see our advertisers). The firepot is simply set into the end of a 24 x 30" or larger steel table made with a 1/4" to 3/8" thick top. The table is built on an angle iron frame made of 2 x 2 x 1/4" angle or larger and has a 2" rim around the edge of the plate to help keep coal from falling off. Attached next to the firepot is a side draft "hood" such as the "super sucker" hood on our plans page. Some smiths like larger square forges without a rim, others with a deeper rim. Much of the extra space is for coal reserve.    - guru - Saturday, 11/14/09 10:29:04 EST Charcoal fires, I have used exclusively charcoal which I make myself. I am new, currently mostly forging my own tools. I have some questions on reducing/oxidizing fires, and I guess the other side of that is air control. It appears to me there is no reserve with charcoal, meaning if I add more charcoal my fire is very soon bigger. It starts extremely easy. one small piece of paper, a little charcoal, and I have a fire. I got a warm enough fire to melt my first forge :-). I am trying to figure out when I have a reducing fire, or oxidizing fire. And part of that is when is it most efficent. On efficency I was curious if anyone experimented with fire brick. I can place them over my fire so I have an oven, though I leave some crackes for ventilation. It appears, but I am not sure, when I am forging most of the day, I use less fuel. It takes longer to get my first heat, but after that I think I use less fuel. It is hard for me to tell, because I am new, and most of my charcoal is from pallets, so I have various woods. Thank you for your help. Milton    Milton - Saturday, 11/14/09 15:47:39 EST Milton, The character of coal and charcoal fires is very different. In a coal fire the volatiles that gas off use up and replace a lot of oxygen. In a charcoal fire the oxygen must be used up. In a deep charcoal fire the gases are CO and free carbon. The free carbon glows red/orange and burns off above the fire as a blue flame. Anything less than a very deep charcoal fire is fairly oxidizing. Enclosing your fire helps hold the gases in including the CO. A technique commonly used with both coal and charcoal is a "fire tube", a cast iron or steel pipe 6 to 8" tall that is supported on the top of the fire and filled with fuel. The gases coming off the top of the tube are very hot and can be used for brazing and welding without burying the work in the fire. Much small delicate work was done this way.    - guru - Saturday, 11/14/09 18:49:51 EST I have found a couple of old cement mixers. The thought came to me that the drum can be turned sideways, lined with clay, etc. and used as a coal forge. There would be an upward slope from the opening to the bottom, placing a chimney at the back should vent heat, smoke. Any thoughts ?    Mike T. - Saturday, 11/14/09 18:58:13 EST Mike, Forges are too easy to build compared to cement mixers. Even if they need repairs they are more valuable for other things. In the metal working shop they have been used as tumblers for finishing parts. A very handy task. While not the ideal tumbler they DO work and are cheaper than tumblers (thus much more valuable than a forge). Just my thoughts. . .    - guru - Saturday, 11/14/09 19:43:03 EST I agree with Guru. I would fix up those 2 mixers, keep 1 and sell or trade the other. I use concrete a lot in my work and a mixer is a wonderful thing to have around. My current one is, actually, a little too big for a lot of jobs but does get a lot of use. It has more than paid for itself and is still as good as new. Just takes a 50Kg bag of cement plus the appropriate rock and sand to make a good mix. Will do that all day.    philip in china - Saturday, 11/14/09 20:20:56 EST BTW Guru that reminds me. To make a quick fix base for an anvil I filled an old square cistern with concrete and bromen cast iron vices. It works very well- adds over 200 pounds of mass to the equation. I seemed, however, to remember that you don't favour concrete bases. What is the reason?    philip in china - Saturday, 11/14/09 20:23:22 EST Concrete: For many applications that folks want to use concrete it is weak and much less dense than most people think. At 1/2 the density of steel it is not a substitute. Your adding broken castings to the mix increases the average density quite a bit. Concrete shrinks and becomes loose inside containers it is cast in. During the drying period (years) it also loses density. It is great for the things it is normally used for but a short life product when used for non-standard applications.    - guru - Sunday, 11/15/09 01:24:28 EST For anvil bases I like something portable. . .    - guru - Sunday, 11/15/09 01:25:44 EST On those concrete mixers. . . While many come with small gasoline engines they can also be run on small electric motors.    - guru - Sunday, 11/15/09 01:42:15 EST I made a small, portable forge and I need help deciding where to put the hole for the gas torch. Details and pictures here: http://dothacker.omghax.ca/index.php?topic=529 I could put the hole through the bottom so it points at the entrance hole, handle side up, or in the side so it sits shiny side down and the heat will circulate as it rises. I will add refractory after the hole is drilled. Any thoughts? Much appreciated, thanks.    Chris - Sunday, 11/15/09 02:03:45 EST Small Forge: Chris, If this is a micro forge and the "torch" is attached to a propane bottle then the position of the hole must be such that the torch will work. When full the liquid fuel will get into the neck if the bottle is more than a 30 degree angle and when low on fuel at anything less than 45 degrees. So the location of the torch and bottle are determined primarily by the physics of the bottle and valve. Coming UP from the bottom is bad because grit and scale can fall into the burner. So somewhere on the side is best. You do not want the burner pointing toward the door as this directs the heat OUT. Also note that every burner must have a certain exhaust area. Closing the door will either put out the torch OR blow hot gases back past the torch and melt the brass burner. To prevent melting the torch it should not be attached to the forge OR protrude past the surface of the shell. It should just point at the hole in the side of the forge. The hole through the refractory should taper open toward the inside of the forge so that it does not create a back pressure. Nice job so far.    - guru - Sunday, 11/15/09 03:03:52 EST i have a very large anvil (like 4 guys to lift it) that is rusty ,anything wrong with me buffing off the rust and then just heating up parts of it and coating it with oil ? im just starting out    ray - Sunday, 11/15/09 10:13:37 EST Ray, The original rust and scale when oiled helps slow future rust. Removing that old coating leaves a bare surface that needs more protection if you want to keep it from rusting. Heat above 400°F should not be used on the anvil as you may reduce its hardness. Normally the only surfaces of the anvil that should be bright and clean are the face, edges and top 60% of the horn. These can be cleaned and finished with light grinding or belt sanding. The rest of the anvil can be cleaned of coarse dirt and loose rust then oiled or painted. Or you can sand blast and paint the whole thing. . . But I kind of like preserving the old rust under oil OR paint.    - guru - Sunday, 11/15/09 10:58:30 EST Guru and all, Thank you for your responses and input. mike    Mike T. - Sunday, 11/15/09 14:47:21 EST Thank you so much for the "upsetting" tips. I will try 2morrow @ the school shop! regards. K    Kia - Sunday, 11/15/09 17:12:19 EST Hi There, last visited this site 5 or so years ago- will have to have a good look round later on. I have been having difficulty tracking down the formula for the radius of a handrail on spiral stairs. Have deviated from strictly doing forge work to a crack at cast iron, steps are now awaiting a handrail! I have a reasonable grasp of the geometric principles involved, I haven't got round to deriving a formula as I was promised the formula from an aquaintance a while back but I would rather have a tried and tested version to work of. (I remember doing something very similar-working out the increase in diameter of a spring when it was compressed and coming up with two different ways to approach it and being unsure which to follow.) Many Thanks, Nic many thanks, Nic    nic - Monday, 11/16/09 06:28:03 EST Spiral Stair Bending: Nic, due to being a spiral there is not a true "radius". However the closest thing is if you start with a plan view and use the slope of the stairs (rise and run at the center line of the rail) as if they produce a straight line then apply this to the diameter from the plan view. This would give you the "diameter" as if looking at the plan from an angle. In reality the shape you would see is an ellipse. The "radius" is half the long dimension of the ellipse. To be absolutely perfect, the "run" is the cord of the segment of the plan radius or the rail center line. This is most easily determined by taking the circumference at this point and dividing it by the number of steps in a full circle even if it is not a whole number (such as 16.5 steps). The rise is a theoretical vertical line so it is what it is. These two things form an angle as if the rail was in a straight line. The length of the rail between steps is the hypotenuse of this right angle. The "radius" you are looking for is half the plan diameter time the ratio between the base of the triangle (cord) and the hypotenuse. The "formula" is simple geometry (diameter, cord, hypotenuse, ratio). The solution is derived from an accurate dimensioned layout. The formula is best not reduced to its simplest form as how and where the dimensions are derived is critical. Otherwise it would look like: cord = (pi * d1) / steps r = d1/2 * SQR(rise² + cord²)/cord If the rail does not make a full circle then you can either proportion the plan circumference or use a theoretical full circle in your layout.    - guru - Monday, 11/16/09 10:07:17 EST Okay, my acetyl. tank is full, the gauges read tank full when closed and open. When I open the regulator, the line gauge reads about 10. After 30 seconds of use the pressure drops in the line but not on the tank. After 2 minutes of use I have to stop because the gas flow is so insignificant that the oxygen pops it out. What is wrong? Do I have a defective regulator? Is Airgas selling me crappy bottles? I feel retarded having to ask this question, but it is frustrating me to no end and the wife is tired of my expletives and scrap pieces being thrown around the shop.    - Nippulini - Monday, 11/16/09 10:59:34 EST Nip, sounds like you have some sort of insect nesting in either the regulator or in the hose. Most likely one of those nefarious little wasplike critters that likes to plug small holes with mud. Or maybe a spider. Or even a bit of chewed-up O-ring. Might be your equipment, might have been in the valve on the tank when you got it. If it's in the regulator I don't know what to tell you, that's an expensive fix. Dunno what to say about the hose either, but those are cheaper than rebuilding a regulator.    Alan-L - Monday, 11/16/09 13:54:28 EST Nope.... I'm an idiot. The tank is empty. 4psi was the reading on the tank itself. I picked it up and shook it about.... empty. The O2 reads the same.... on my way to the welding shop. Damn, I felt like I just did this a month ago. Guess I'm using more than I thought.    - Nippulini - Monday, 11/16/09 14:22:52 EST Nip, I think you have a clogged line. Probably insect nests. These happen when the lines are left loose, torch head off OR occasionally they will get in through the torch tip if it is large enough. Wasps and spiders will also build nests in the regulator by getting into any opening. Teflon tape can also cause similar problems. The tank gauge should not change when you close the tank valve unless you have a leak in the hoses OR the torch valves. Close the tank valve, then bleed the lines to be sure the gauge is working, to bleed the lines the regulator must be set to some pressure above zero. If it does not drop then disconnect the hose from the regulator. If THIS does not bleed the regulator and zero the gauge then look in the port and see if there is something clogging it. IF THIS does not zero the gauge then remove the regulator from the cylinder. IF that does not zero it remove the gauge from the regulator and check for debris in the small hole in the gauge body. TESTING: Crack the cylinder valve briefly without a regulator installed. There should be a blast of gas. This is recommended prior to installing a regulator to be sure there is no dirt in the cylinder valve. Attach the regulator, back off the adjustment screw and then open the cylinder valve. The high pressure gauge should read cylinder pressure and there should be NO flow out the regulator. If there is flow from the outlet then the regulator seat or needle is damaged. If there is flow elsewhere the diaphragm is damaged. Screw the adjustment screw in until there is flow. Briefly give it a turn to check for full flow then back off to zero. Check the hose by blowing through them with the torch removed. Open the torch valves and blow through the torch without a tip attached. Flow should be fairly easy other than opening the check valves if the torch has them. Before installing a tip inspect bothe ends for debris. Install the hoses and torch. Test for flow. Test the torch. Note that the vapor pressure in an acetylene tank is limited and stays close to 240 or so PSI throughout most of the cylinder's use then starts dropping only when most of the gas is used up. It is not linear. Normally you should not see a drop in pressure on a full tank unless you are drawing a LOT of gas. Also note that I have had oxyacetylene torches ruined by insects. I have disassembled, blown out, cleaned. . . Once those mud balls or silk balls of web material get in places where they cannot get out the only repair is to disassemble by melting the silver solder joints, cleaning and then reassembling. This rebuild work on torches is now so expensive that it is cheaper to buy new. To prevent this from happening in some areas you have to religiously bag unused torches and use caps on open lines of hoses and regulators. If you are lucky the clog can be cleared. But often it is the end. . . This is something not in the books or equipment maintenance instructions.    - guru - Monday, 11/16/09 14:40:01 EST Mud daubers are pretty severe in my area. It is said that when releiving one self in the woods in the spring in my area, you have to be very quick or the daubers will clog you up! Tape or bags works for me to keep them out of hoses etc.    ptree - Monday, 11/16/09 14:48:05 EST When I first ran into this problem it was with air hoses. One day I found my spray gun did not work. I had loaned it out and I figured it had not been cleaned. I took it apart and cleaned it. Tested it. No go. I checked the hose and the quick disconnect. They were OK. Reassembled. . no go. I was really pissed at the guy I had loaned it to. I gave up. Then a year later I tried again. I cleaned the gun AGAIN taking things apart that were no supposed to be taken apart. No go. Everything seemed free and wide open. If this was a paint clog it was somewhere I could not find. Then another year later I tried AGAIN. But this time I happened to think about the 3 foot long stinger hose made of smaller more flexible hose. I had taken it off every time I cleaned the gun. I blew through the gun . . . whoosh! No resistance. . . Hmmmmmm. I tried the hose. . no flow! I checked the ends. All clear. I took a piece of wire and about mid way in two three feet of hose there was a mud dauber nest clogging the hose! It had probably been at the inlet and air pressure had forced it to the middle of the hose. I had been fighting this for three years and was ready to go buy a new spray gun. I was pissed at a friend and stopped loaning him tools. . . And there was the clog in the first place I should have looked . . The gun works fine now. But I have a couple Victor torches that WERE very good equipment that just quit for similar reasons. On another occasion I had oil leaking from the rear-axel of my truck. Every time I took it in for service it needed a pint or two of oil. Then one day I mentioned it to a fellow and he asked if I had checked the vent cap. We crawled under the truck, gave it a twist, and mud dauber nest material fell out. We gave is another twist, sprayed in some WD-40 and the truck never needed rear axel oil again. . . Lots of things have low pressure atmospheric vents including regulators. . .    - guru - Monday, 11/16/09 15:35:47 EST Safety Warning: Insects also build nests in fire extinguisher nozzles. This can happen in just a few days. A freshly refilled and inspected fire extinguisher can fail just days after placement. If you have a mud dauber or wasp problem inspect your fire extinguishers often and prior to use.    - guru - Monday, 11/16/09 16:44:18 EST Nip, Don't feel too bad. I had similar symptoms on a propane tank once (though there's no tank gauge in my set up). I was about ready to start tearing things apart. Turned out I just hadn't opened the tank valve far enough!    Mike BR - Monday, 11/16/09 17:15:06 EST Charcoal fires, revisited. Guru, Thank you for your responce to my questions. I have been thinking about it for about a day, so I still have some questions. My tuyere comes in from the bottom, about 3.5 inches below the surface of my "forge table". So if I used a fire tube I would set that on my forge table, and then fill that with charcoal. Is that correct? If so, then there is enough CO2 coming out of the top that you do not have to worry about the atmosphere oxidizing the steel if it is laying on the fire tube? By your responce I take it that laying the steel on top, the fire is still hot enough to get a welding heat? If I layed up fire brick with no cement, would that be tight enough to work? Thinking about this I saw a diagram of a brick forge with a very deep pit. I was confused, now I think I understand. Thank you for all your help. Milton    Milton - Monday, 11/16/09 17:55:02 EST The fire tube is sort of a forge accessory and not intended for long term use. Brick would do well for long term use.    - guru - Monday, 11/16/09 18:51:56 EST Spiral stairs- Here's another way to do what the Guru described, but it's a little more visual/graphical. I've used the following method for finding spiral stair handrail length and diameter to bend it to several times. To find the length of the rail: Draw centerline of rail in plan view. Mark starting point anywhere on the circle, call it AB. Find total rise of handrail, call it H for height. Draw a right triangle where one right leg equals AB (circumference of rail in plan view) and the other equals H. Call this line BC. Draw the hypotenuse AC. The length of AC is the length of the handrail, basically you will unwrap a right triangle from around a cylinder. To make the handrail, take the length of stock we've just discovered and bend it to it's developed diameter, a diameter that when you take the free ends and pull them apart will touch the nose of each tread matching the helix of the stairs. To find developed diameter: Draw a right triangle where AB is the diameter of the handrail in plan view, BC is the rise of the stairs at 180 deg. (1/2 H), and AC is the hypotenuse. Here is the key- the LENGTH of AC becomes the DIAMETER of a circle that you will bend the stock length from the first equation from. When you pull the ends of the resulting circle apart, you have your handrail.    Judson Yaggy - Monday, 11/16/09 19:20:36 EST ive asked before but i need some cheap coal in the alabama area.im a rather young (under 20) and i just need some coal so i can expirement with my creations.ive made a rather crude spear head but it couldnt got hot enough to turn it broght orange just a slicht clowing red with charcoal, anysuggestions??    dustin c. - Monday, 11/16/09 19:38:15 EST sorry about the typos i was typing fast    dustin c. - Monday, 11/16/09 19:39:10 EST No, you were misspelling fast. . . Get firefox, it has built in spell check. "Cheap coal" is like "cheap gasoline" or "cheap gold". . . Fuel is fuel and in our global economy it is rare that any one type of fuel costs less than another per equal energy unit. Real wood charcoal, AKA lump charcoal, NOT briquettes, is just as good for forging as good coal and was almost the only fuel used for thousands of years. "Cheap" coal may be very low grade, that is, mostly non-combustibles such as clay and minerals. Briquettes are not pure charcoal, they are mostly sawdust and glue with some powdered charcoal for color and powdered coal to keep it alight. . . ahhhh steak broiling on sulfurous fumes. . . So, unless you want a lot more frustration you want top grade smithing coal OR real lump charcoal. Coal can be ordered in your area from Blacksmiths Depot OR obtained from one of the local blacksmiths associations. Seek them and yee shall find. Lump charcoal is sold by restaurant suppliers for restaurants such as steakhouses and by some of the "big box" stores. In almost any case, coal, charcoal, propane or diesel, will cost you roughly the same per heat unit.    - guru - Monday, 11/16/09 20:08:54 EST Nip, You might be able to upgrade to larger tanks when You refill. Some gas companies will work with You, some won't. Along with the hassle of frequently needing refills, with acetylene there is a safety aspect too. You are not supposed to draw over 1/7 of the tanks capacity per hour. That means if You have a 75 CuFt tank You shouldn't draw over 10.7 CFH. In Victor equipment that limits You to a #2 tip [.046" hole in the tip]. This is a serious limitation, practically everyone breaks this rule. For short periods of time You can get away with it. The longer the torch is lit, the more likely You are to have problems. Propane & propalene are not limited in this way, You can draw them 'till the pressure drops too much to continue use.    - Dave Boyer - Monday, 11/16/09 20:41:39 EST Layout and Math: Almost any geometrical problem can be solved by layout and projection. These are basic drafting skills that anyone building a spiral stair should have. Sadly, CAD programs are not a good tool for doing this. They can be used, but are very slow and cludgy compared to a straight edge and a triangle. The Ancient Greeks believed that ANY true proof could be determined with a compass and straight edge. They were right except solving for certain irrational numbers such as PI. When I create formulae such as above (a few posts) I do the projection in my head and convert it to simple geometry. In spatial design almost anything can be done using only the Pythagorean theorem, PI and derivations or combinations of the two. Folks that work in our field need to take an old fashioned drafting class (I suspect art schools still teach it) and pay particular attention to projections. Making projections is 99% of all complex layout in fields such as sheet metal work and applies perfectly to spiral stairs. When doing large scale design work it is often hard to determine accurate dimensions via layout. However, the layout and projection will get you close. Then when you do the math your values should be the same, just accurate to a few more digits or decimal places unless your layout was very sloppy. One makes a good test for the other. For calculating complex curves it is possible to convert most to a series of radii with centers on common axiis so that the lines blend perfectly from one to another. The violin, classical guitar and many other sophisticated shapes are recorded this way so that they can be reproduced as well as scaled up and down. Using the correct methods these curves will have absolutely no kinks or abrupt looking changes. By knowing the centers and radii the lengths of the line can be determined to absolutely accurate values. These methods can be used to make a scale drawing for a rail and scaled up to create the final work. Compass and straight edge. . .    - guru - Monday, 11/16/09 20:53:47 EST Dave, Propane IS limited by the draw rate for the same reasons. In both cases a liquid fuel is being converted to a gas by boiling at room temperature. This absorbs energy, cools the liquid and the draw rate drops until the liquid can no longer boil. Folks running forges on small propane cylinders have this problem ALL the time. When the bottle stops producing gas you can shake it and hear the slush. The shaking exposes the liquid to warm sections of the bottle and a little more gas will come out. If you wait until the bottle AND contents reach room temperature the gas will flow again. For high draw applications like big kilns and hot air balloon burners liquid propane is drawn and evaporated in a heated evaporator (the copper coil on a hot air balloon burner). In some cases the liquid fuel is sprayed into the hot furnace. . . In rocket engines the entire nozzle is a huge heat exchanger that cryogenic fuels are pumped into. The heat of the engine blast evaporates more fuel and the fuel cools the nozzle shell preventing it from melting. . . A critical balance. The difference between a propane bottle and an acetylene cylinder? The propane is ALL fuel. The acetylene bottle is filled with pumice and acetone, the acetylene dissolved in the acetone. Much less fuel and a pressure drop through the pumice. Propane bottles are also larger capacity as well. But the 1/7th draw rate still applies.    - guru - Monday, 11/16/09 22:46:03 EST Meteor Shower. . well, at midnight we saw nothing in a partially occluded sky. No planes, no UFO's no shooting stars. Maybe you guys out west will have better luck later tonight. We will try at 3am but the cloud cover should be 100% by then. . .    - guru - Monday, 11/16/09 23:28:17 EST Guru and Judson, Thanks very much for that- a great help!    nic - Tuesday, 11/17/09 06:38:15 EST Meteor light show: Here in NH, I sat out from 2:25 - 3:15 and didn't see a single shooter. I saw one last night before bed, and then another one this morning, about 5:30 when letting the dogs out. It wasn't too much of a waste of time, though. Both last night's and the 3AM sittings were in a hot tub.    - Marc - Tuesday, 11/17/09 07:34:14 EST Hey Guru (or anyone in the North Carolina area), I have looked all over the internet trying find a supplier of pine tar or pine tar pitch. I can only find gallon size containers for sale on the interet. I need to make enough pitch for 25 high school kids to use on their sculpture projects. With the current economy, our department can't afford to purchase repousse pitch from a repousse supplier. I need to make it from the recipes available online. Can anyone point me in a better direction? Thanks for any help.    Randy - Tuesday, 11/17/09 07:34:41 EST Randy, a gallon sounds about right for 25 kids. What are you going to use for tools? That is a LOT of tooling up. I found these folks. noxudolusa.com They sell pine tar in two grades and 1 liter and up containers. Pitch R&D Last spring I bought a "stick" of roofing tar (90 to 100 pounds) to use for the same purpose. I also purchased 25 pounds of fine pumice and heavy aluminum cookware (old Club cookware) and some volumetric measuring tools. I scrounged a precision scale as well. I was short the needed propane or electric hot plate. I also researched penetrometer and durometer measurement tools and had a plan to make one using a dial indicator, special points and a weight platform. I ran out of time/energy/money to finish the R&D. Actually - I've been spending my shop time trying to finish the power hammers Dave and I started the spring before. . . There is some debate on the use of roofing tar. My plan was to setup a "pitch lab" and test product using standard methods as well as practical (impactor and mold release). I was going to add small quantities of mineral oil to soften the tar then add various fillers. Then compare samples and try for repousse' (more practical testing) as well. Currently this plan is on hold until we finish the power hammers and a second project, building an interchangable head 2x72 grinder. ------------------------------------------------- More repousse' In his book, Adolph Stienes recommends using carpet to backup certain types of repousse' work. We picked up some nice sample pieces with bound edges from a floor shop. They make a great work surface for all kinds of things. I have not tried it for repousse' yet. But they sure are less messy. . .    - guru - Tuesday, 11/17/09 09:43:09 EST Marc, I saw one quick one go by from East to Weast last night about 9:30. It barely caught my eye befor it was gone. Was there supposed to be a regular meteor shower last night?    - merl - Tuesday, 11/17/09 09:57:49 EST Roofing Tar: Two things. . . Apparently in the South East it is not used very much anymore and is difficult to find. It took a bunch of searching to find a place that stocked it. Second. . . it is a PAIN to cut up. An ax is recommended. I was hoping to saw or slice the "stick" of tar into slices of a bout 10 pounds to resell. To start, the "stick" was rather mangled, not a straight cylinder and much shorter than pictured in the catalogs. It was cool weather and we tried to saw it. . . Did nothing except make a tarry mess of the saw blade. We ended up using an ax to make tar chips. . . So, plans as usual go agley.    - guru - Tuesday, 11/17/09 10:09:45 EST Too many projects. . . I also have books to scan and setup and two new features to scan and setup on weekly and daily release schedules (plus coding). . . . still making a server move . . and. . . Meteor shower is the Leonids on November 17-18. This AM was supposed to be peak but we had 100% cloud cover at that time. . yuan! We watch from the hot-tub as well. great way to star watch - warm and comfortable. Over the years I've seen some great meteors from the hot tub. But not so good recently. But this year we have seen satellites TWICE.    - guru - Tuesday, 11/17/09 10:29:56 EST Hey guys, thanks for all the advice. My lines are clear and free, besides my cellar workshop is a very unhospitable environment for pests. I just assumed that there was a problem because I usually refill my tanks once every 3 to 4 months. This time it was about 1-1/2 months, so I found out that I have been using the oxy/acetyl a LOT in the past 1-1/2 months, and it makes sense as I have been quite busy filling orders. Dave, thanks for the info about overdraw on the tanks. When I was at Airgas they just sold a set to a new customer and I help explain the dangers of acetylene beyond 15psi. I was thinking about getting bigger tanks, but then there is the storage problem (my shop is SMALL.. lucky I have room to swing a hammer!).    - Nippulini - Tuesday, 11/17/09 11:04:53 EST Having nothing to do with blacksmithing or metal working but, interesting none the less... I watched what I thought was a high flying air craft going from S.W. to N.E. the other night. I assumed that from the speed that it coverd the distance that it was well under 10000' and must have been on a desending path to the airport in Green Bay as it is not normal to see air craft flying that low going in that direction. The odd thing about it was that while I could plainly see the landing light(s)that made it look like Venus moving through the sky, I could see no blinking lights. About the time it should have started making a more dramatic decent to land in Green Bay, I instead saw the lights fade out all together. I assumed it was because the aircraft was pointing completly away from me by this time. The most curious thing was that the whole time I watched this, about 3-4 minutes, I never heard a sound from it. The air was perfectly still and only down to about 55 deg. about 10 PM. Useualy I can hear even the faintest wisper of engine noise at the lower altitudes and, if this was actualy flying high enough that I couldn't, then it was going unbelievably fast.    - merl - Tuesday, 11/17/09 11:14:28 EST Pine tar? Do you mix that with something? The pine tar I buy is a liquid about like honey. I've heard of using a pitch, but that's sorta solid. Whole different animal from bituminous roofing tar.    - grant - Tuesday, 11/17/09 11:42:55 EST Merl, A good chance is was a satellite. There are some huge photo survey satellites that cover the entire Earth in a varying pattern. You may only have one chance a year to see them. The thing that makes them very visible is the huge solar arrays. These "wings" are very large and reflective. If turned the right direction they can be the brightest thing in the sky.    - guru - Tuesday, 11/17/09 11:50:37 EST Grant, It gets mixed with filler much like making a thick putty or plasticine clay. The heavy pine tar makes a much stiffer composition than oil clay (plasticine) which is made from ground chalk (calcium carbonate) and stearic acid (oil).    - guru - Tuesday, 11/17/09 12:09:11 EST Thought that might be the case. Don'cha just love the smell of pine tar?    - grant - Tuesday, 11/17/09 13:15:35 EST Meteors in the SF Bay Area, thought we'd have cloud cover but when I awoke at 3:50 this morning, clear sky and stars. Stood on the front porch for a good half hour, but no shooting stars. the 10 yr old asked me to wake her up if there was anything to see. Just got my hands on a dozen set tools from a garage sale. quickly handled the smallest punch and and the hot cut. Discovered the huge difference in ease using a handled tools. Anxious to use the fuller and set hammer. Pics of the find here. http://www.flickr.com/photos/10735775@N04/4084125451/ Michael    Michael - Tuesday, 11/17/09 14:10:29 EST Love the mini anvil at the bottom. I have about a dozen or so in my collection... nothing like the 345 8-track tape collection I own.    - Nippulini - Tuesday, 11/17/09 14:58:14 EST Yesterday I had my acetylene bottle refilled. I started to heat some steel but noticed a phenomenon which I had never seen before. Some solid substance was coming out of the tip. It formed into small pieces which would then break away, red hot, and be replaced by another piece which would form similarly. The substance appearing looked like wax as much as anything. What is it? Am I doing something wrong? I have been having problems getting the torch to work as I would like. I think that those problems, however, are a combination of lack of experience and a very low quality torch.    philip in china - Tuesday, 11/17/09 15:05:21 EST Phillip, Sounds like a very serious issue. . . some contaminate in the cylinder contents. Note that a low acetylene cylinder or am improperly overfilled one, OR one lying on its side will feed liquid acetone into the system. The acetone may dissolve things that normally withstand the gas. However, the hoses, seals and such should all be acetylene and acetone resistant. Another thought. They make boron feeder systems for acetylene torches. It is a bottle like and acetylene bottle that the gas bubbled through and puts flux in the gas. Lots of brazing done this way. You might have been given some sort of cylinder designed for this purpose. . . . In any case. It is VERY weird and I would return the cylinder immediately.    - guru - Tuesday, 11/17/09 15:16:52 EST Well, us old-timers remember that one. It's calcium or lime from the production of acetylene from calcium carbide. Really bad with the old acetylene generators. Just forty years ago that was still a common way to manufacture it in this country, bet they're using that process over there. Acetylene is now made in this country mostly from oil and natural gas. Shouldn't be a problem if the torch is adjusted correctly, just a tiny bit leaner.    - grant - Tuesday, 11/17/09 16:58:23 EST Grant, when I started in 1981 at the Valve, Boiler, and Ice machine factory, they had a huge acetylene generator room. They had pulled the generator a few years before, and still used the room with its frangible roof to hold the manifolded acetylene bottles that fed the entire boiler shops. Had about 100+ bottles in manifold. Later when I was supervisor of the powerhouse, My pipefitters had to service the acetylene flash traps thruoghout those same shops. Took them about 2 days a month to refill the water, and about 3 days in the fall to switch to antifreeze. about 300 traps if I remember right.    ptree - Tuesday, 11/17/09 17:57:43 EST First blacksmith shop I worked in had a mountain of lime in the back yard just from emptying the portable acetylene generators. My dad had one when I was a kid too.    - grant - Tuesday, 11/17/09 18:17:21 EST Grant, the lime from the generator at VOGT went on the railroad tracks to soak up the oil that dripped from the shavings filled scrap cars:) When we installed a real chip shredder and wringer for all shavings, we saved 40,000 gallons of ol a year!    ptree - Tuesday, 11/17/09 18:55:52 EST Propane freezes at 310 below zero (Farenheit). If you hear slush in a "frozen" bottle, there must be a *lot* of water in the propane.    Mike BR - Tuesday, 11/17/09 19:35:09 EST Mike, possibly. But then at the surface of the propane, which is also often mixed with other gases, the temperature could be that low or low enough for the other compounds to freeze. Propane stops boiling off at much higher temperature, -44°F.    - guru - Tuesday, 11/17/09 20:10:11 EST 1/7 rule: The pressure drop is an inconvnience with propane and propalene. Getting acetone out of the cylinder and into the regulater and hoses with acetylene is a safety issue.    - Dave Boyer - Tuesday, 11/17/09 22:28:06 EST The safety issue in the above post comes from acetylene torch manufacturer literature. I personally have never had any problems, but I havn't heavily overdrawn cylinders for extended timeframes. Does anybody have any field experience that would indicate a problem before it became serious? I didn't know of the 1/7 rule for many years and was happy in My ignorance. Now I am gunshy about using a rosebud or any larger welding or cutting tip.    - Dave Boyer - Tuesday, 11/17/09 22:46:03 EST Photo Survey Satellite: Guru that had to be it, it would make perfect sence too. Anything flying that high would still catch the sun at that time of night. Still dam peculiar though... BTW I can't wait to start getting the reports from your "repousse pitch" experiments. I was wondering though, if you couldn't put the pitch "log" you purchased in a chest freezer for a week befor trying to saw it with a 2/3 hook blade or, could you then take the ax cut "chips" and recast them in an old frying pan, cover with wax paper and, sell them as ready made repousse pitch blanks? Also, I remember when I was a boy and we would get tar on our feet from the hot summer roads, we would have to use butter or cooking oil to get it off. I think if you had a moderate drip of vegitable oil (NOT mineral oil) on your blade you might be able to saw through the stuff. Rather than use my band saw for the task I would take a 2-3' long piece of an old band saw blade and make a bowsaw frame for it. Thinking about alternitive backings for repousse, I wonder how a 1/2" to 1" thick slab of neoprein rubber would work? I would think around 30-40 Duro shore A, might work for a start?    - merl - Tuesday, 11/17/09 23:34:27 EST 1/7th Rule and Acetylene: Dave, I have not had a problem with it as a safety issue but an operational issue. Once at a Nuclear plant it was my job to quickly heat the end of a large (10K HP) pump impellor with an oxy-acetylene torch. The torch was about a 1-1/2" diameter rosebud. I told the welders I would need 3 standard bottles or 2 extra large bottles manifolded together. ME, the humble outsider "consultant" was told they had no such thing and there would be no problems. . . I was over ridden by higher management. SO, in I go in double cottons, ring dosimeters and a respirator. . . have the torch handed in to me through the equipment hatch and then drag the hoses up 24 feet of ladders and over a rail. I wait while my assistants lift off the 6" thick shielding and install a huge 100 ton hydraulic puller. Then I light the torch, play it on the part for about 10-15 seconds and the torch goes out POW! So I go to relight the torch, pop, POW. I yell through the respirator to one of my assistants who are now a safe distance away to ask the guys outside in nice cool T-shirts to check the pressure. . . SURE. . LOTS of pressure. I try agian. pop, snap, POW. . . I go hoarse trying to get the bums outside to LOOK at the friggin gauge while I try to light the torch. . . FINALLY they look. Pressure drops to about 4-5 PSI while trying to light the big torch and 0 by the time it pops out. . . I pass the torch out and exit the containment (about a 2 hour procedure) on top of the fact that the double cottons are now saturated with my sweat and I have to get out of the respirator without contaminating myself. . . Meanwhile the rest of the crew removes the puller and replaces the shielding. . . I REALLY hate when MY "I TOLD YOU SO" kicks ME in the butt. . . It took me several days running around Sacramento as an outsider that knew nothing about the area to find the parts to manifold several cylinders together. By then the welders had managed to obtain two extra large cylinders which I then tested with the torch prior to going inside AGAIN. So, four days later we try again. The puller is loaded to 90% of what the threads can take, I apply the heat playing it up and down the hub on each space between blades. . and PLunk the impellor pops off. My job is done escept for inspecting the impellor for cavitation damage the next day. There was. The fact was ignored along with other issues. But that is another nuclear story for another time. I've had the same happen in other less dramatic situations but both times it resulted in a failure and the expense of a large crew for a day. At least it was not MY money or MY hide. . but I had forewarned the "management". Now days I would would simply hand the torch to the "boss" and say, "YOU do it, I'm going to take a couple days off". --------------------------------------------------- The standard little 1/2" rosebud that comes in a Victor Journeyman set is all a large full acetylene cylinder can supply. All the larger rosebuds require multiple cylinders that are full and warm. They will fail when the cylinders are drawn down 30 to 50%. In freezing weather you may need to use triple cylinders rather than double. For large heating jobs I now use oxy-propane because of the availability of larger bottles and the softer quieter flame.    - guru - Wednesday, 11/18/09 01:14:32 EST Rubber instead of Pitch: Merl, it will not work very well. You need the pitch to support the work and be permanently displaced along with the metal as it continues to support the non-displaced metal. This firm support allows controlled working and fine detail. Rubber will not do this. The saw we tried to use was a long very coarse blade on a jab saw. The tar almost immediately melted and stuck all over the blade. It would have put a band was out of commission until a LOT of cleaning had been done to remove all the tar. The tar melted so fast that I don't think freezing it would help. I figured the way to repackage tar was to find a roofer with a tar pot and have small boxes lined with a plastic bag filled with melted tar. But then it becomes a semi-production process. It is very messy smelly stuff to deal with and I didn't particularly want my shop to become a "tar" operation. But I will get around to the research because I have some repousse' projects I want to do and maybe I'll stick with it for a while.    - guru - Wednesday, 11/18/09 01:38:11 EST I have seen the above posts about repousse. Remember several years ago when the statue of liberty was renovated ? Well the copper sheath on the outside was made and fitted together using the repousse method. No one in the United States could do the work ( as it had become a dying art ) ,so the U.S. asked the French if there was any company over there that could reproduce the needed sections. They found one company that still practiced this type of work and the workers were sent to the U.S. to replace the outer skin sections and replace them with new ones using the repousse method. I believe this is one reason why ancient art and methods should always be kept alive.    Mike T. - Wednesday, 11/18/09 04:09:06 EST I have heard and seen great claims for oxy gasoline. Is it as good as the hype suggests?    - philip in china - Wednesday, 11/18/09 05:57:34 EST Now THAT sounds dangerous. Hope you got better acetyl now, Philip.    - Nippulini - Wednesday, 11/18/09 07:43:32 EST Oxy-Gasoline: It is great for ONE thing, cutting steel. But it cannot be used for welding or other techniques and the torch is fairly expensive ($800 last I looked). The primary advantage is the common fuel. They also claim that the cutting swarf is very cool compared to oxyacetylene which will wreck concrete and set asphalt drives on fire. The primary operational curiosity is that the fuel tank is hand pumped to pressurize it.    - guru - Wednesday, 11/18/09 09:42:13 EST amazon.cxx has Imprex Pine Tar - 1 Liter can. (usd)$12.50. Pine tar is used in the rope industry.    - bill w - Wednesday, 11/18/09 09:42:46 EST Pine tar pours like Karo syrup. It is different than pitch, the pitch being thicker and not flowable unless heated. There are repoussé pitch formulas in the older books, for example "Metalwork for Craftsmen" by Emil F. Kronquist. The auther suggests putting 3 pounds of black shoemaker's pitch and one pound of rosin in a kettle over a low flame and stirring with a wooden stick. Add 6 pounds of plaster of paris by sprinkling separate handfuls and stirring constantly. Let simmer for about 6 hours until all moisture driven out and the mixture appears like a shiny black, HEAVY syrup. Chasing pitch can be tempered. Add rosin if a harder pitch is desired. Add a small amount of tallow or turpentine is more softness is needed. As a horseshoer, on hooves with a leather or composition pad between the shoe and the foot, I would put pine tar and oakum over the sole and frog before nailing on.    Frank Turley - Wednesday, 11/18/09 11:09:50 EST ...perminatly displaced... Yes, I was wondering about that even as I hit the "Post" key. I suppose any rubber compound that was soft enough to remain perminatly displaced would likely be too soft to provide a good backing and not fill in properly for finer detail work anyway. Not to argu with you about cutting the tar log BUT, I'm thinking that if this stuff can be "chipped" then it can also be saw cut as well. I can see that the rapid movement of a recipricating blade would heat the cut zone pretty fast and, if it is melting then it won't be cut. I think if you keep the blade oiled as I suggest and cut by hand with a bow saw or at least a blade with minimal surface area you may get through it. Of course that creates alot of hand labor that I wouldn't be too keen on either. STOP: What about an old chainsaw blade stretched tight...? Consider also that the best way to cut raw meat is when it's semi frozen. Gee, coming up with ideas that involve alot of work for someone else is easy...    - merl - Wednesday, 11/18/09 11:17:32 EST Actually, only a little copper work was done on the statue of Liberty restoration- mainly on the torch. The vast majority of work was forging stainless steel inner supports to replace the 100 year old wrought iron ones that had corroded due to galvanic corrosion. And while the company was French, a New York blacksmith, James Garvey, worked with them on the job.    - Ries - Wednesday, 11/18/09 11:23:01 EST Frnk, I like that recipe. I'm gonna' wright that down but, I'll bet I won't find any "shoemakers pitch" though, What would be an equivelant product?    - merl - Wednesday, 11/18/09 11:29:09 EST Merl, I can't help you find a commercial product. I'm in northern New Mexico, and we find natural, amber colored pitch oozing out of our small piñón (pine) trees. It would take a while to scout enough for a chasing block, but with time and patience, it could be done. Indians in the region use piñón pitch as a kind of "glue" for their various craft projects. It is not written in stone that pitch needs to be black.    Frank Turley - Wednesday, 11/18/09 11:51:21 EST Merl, we tried hand sawing and the tar packed between the teeth immediately. Then it smears onto the sides of the blade and it welds into the kerf. . Even flooding lubricant doesn't work. .    - guru - Wednesday, 11/18/09 12:11:16 EST Guru and company, I have a small problem I'm needing help with. I have a small acetylene tank such as plumbers use for soldering. It's old and hasn't been used in several years. The valve on the top of the tank will not turn. I have tried turning it in both directions but it's stuck. I know some gases react explosively when exposed to certain lubricants. Would it be safe for me to use penetrating oil on the fitting? Are there any other options I might try before I give up and exchange this tank? Thanks much. Bill    Bill - Wednesday, 11/18/09 12:13:59 EST There are some trees that are pitch gushers; once back in Ohio I was visiting a park where they had done some trimming of the trees and found one that I filled a 12 oz cup with pitch that had oozed out. Must have been a "pitch pine". We were using it for neotribal knife hilting mixed with PHD. (Powdered Herbivore Dung). I may have to start cutting it with pinon pitch and see if I can get a repousse version. Now that the old electric stove is coming out to my smithy I can experiment a lot easier on such things! Thomas    Thomas P - Wednesday, 11/18/09 12:19:44 EST Cylinder Valves: Bill, Never use any lubricant on welding equipment. Even if its safe the supplier service guys guys will not touch it and if exchanged you may get charged for the cost of the bottle. Stuck valves are usually the result of the packing being too tight OR stuck (adhered) to the stem. Back off on the packing gland nut just a little. This should loosen the stem so you can exercise it. If there is gas in the bottle then you will need to snug the packing gland until the valve just turns comfortably then test for leaks using a water based leak checking fluid (soap and water). Often the packing gland is tightened to prevent leaking without regard to usability of the valve. In this case the bottle should be returned immediately. IF after adjusting the valve to work it leaks, then it should be returned immediately. These small cylinders are often NOT exchange tanks but privately owned (yours) and refilled as you wait. If there is a valve problem it is at your cost. If you get a bad exchange tank it should be returned with a complaint. This is a common issue.    - guru - Wednesday, 11/18/09 13:09:37 EST I have purchased pine tar pitch from Rausch Naval stores in New orleans- I googled and saw that they are still in business-I purchsed 3 1/2 pound containers- don't remember the price- it was a number of years ago    - Ray Clontz - Wednesday, 11/18/09 13:39:31 EST Yes Thomas, I have heard of "pitch pines" though I'm not sure what veriety it actualy is. Do you have to do any kind of processing befor you cook it? I have several pines on my property but I have never seen them give off pitch like that. I'll have to look around the neiborhood I guess, probably in the spring now. I save all my old electric skillets that have the teflon coating coming off them for "experimental cooking" Good for heating up shrink fit bearings and sleaves too. OK Guru, no more suggestions for sawing tar from me... Frank, I have a friend that may be going back to live out in NM. If he does I'll coerce him into collecting me some for Christmas. Thanks.    - merl - Wednesday, 11/18/09 14:15:16 EST Merl; get him interested in smithing! Frank runs a top notch smithing school out here and I;m currently president of the NM ABANA affiliate SWABA. Thomas    Thomas P - Wednesday, 11/18/09 15:13:25 EST Well Thomas, he is already a highly skilled machinist, certified welder, skilled electrician, sculptor, painter, guitar maker, chef and, learning silver smithing. At age 61 he claims he doesn't have time for learning another skill but, I think he's just slacking... Besides, after my wife, he's my best friend and I'm trying to convince him to stay here in Wisconsin. Also, I am concerned that if he were to meet up with you and Frank he would be turned to the "dark side" and the three of you would band together to try and drag me down to NM as well and, I just can't have that. I am one of those people who must suffer through the long, hard Wisconsin winters to prove every year that I am actualy alive but, not quite smart enough to know when to move someware warmer. One of these years I will get out to Frank's school and to Quad states. I believe ptree has reserved an adult bevy for me at Quad states so I may have to go there first befor the offer expires...    - merl - Wednesday, 11/18/09 18:16:34 EST (Powdered Herbivore Dung) Is that what a PHD is?! I never knew that. Hey Thomas, don't you have a PHD........(incert clever imodicon of your choice here)    - merl - Wednesday, 11/18/09 18:26:46 EST Merl, We don't have Wisconsin style winters in Santa Fe, but I do heat with wood only for our living room/kitchen combo. The back of the place is sealed off and cold, so the bathroom there is a real waker-upper. Just a space heater in there. So far, I've burned 1/3 of a cord of wood. P.S. The house and shop are at 7,000 feet. The nearby Sangre de Cristo mountains go up to 10,000+ feet.    Frank Turley - Wednesday, 11/18/09 19:05:17 EST I have a BS-CIS and a BS-Geology/Geophysics and most of an EETech associate degree. Or as I put it "some bs for each foot" Only PhD I have is that left by the deer, rabbit and packrats. I work surrounded by PhD's in astrophysics though. Frank; we've had 5 or 6 fires so far down here in the valley---haven't even cleaned up the mess around the wood pile yet. Thomas    Thomas P - Wednesday, 11/18/09 20:03:48 EST Jock, I have used the 8 hole rosebud tip that is common in Harris gear without problems from a 74 CuFt tank, but never for a really long time. I got concerned when I looked up the specks on a Purox A100 tip that at a casual glance appears only a little bigger - 8 [rather large] holes and about 5/8" overall diameter. This tip is rated at 147K BTU, or 100 CFH. To comply with the 1/7 rule one would need a bit more than a 300 CuFt tank couppled to a 390 CuFt tank, the latter being about the size of a 100# propane tank. I lit this tip from a 145 CuFt cylinder, the largest ones I have. This is a lot of fire, but I shut it down after a few seconds because of all the cautions about never exceding the 1/7 rule, which I was exceding by nearly 5 times. I am not set up to manifold cylinders, and I don't want to be. I have given thought to oxy-propane or oxy-propalene. VIcopper tried the Oxy-propalene demonstration at Quad State, He thought it worked better than oxy-acetylene for cutting.    - Dave Boyer - Wednesday, 11/18/09 21:11:40 EST Cutting Tar - Could You use the "hot wire" idea, a length of old bandsaw blade, teeth up tensioned and insulated energised by a stick welder? Just a thought.    - Dave Boyer - Wednesday, 11/18/09 21:25:11 EST Frank, I don't envy you at that elevation. I'm sure it takes alot more work to keep your self warm at the higher elevations. When I was a boy I had a great aunt and uncle that lived on an OLD farm a bit west of here. The house was beautiful in its simplicity but, still large and only heated by the kitchen stove and a coal/wood stove in the living room and one more up stairs. During the winter they would often have to thaw the water in the toilet with hot water in the morning. It had the biggest kitchen you have ever seen. My great uncle would always bragg that he could butcher a whole cow in that kitchen without diturbing the folks at the supper table... I sure do miss that place. Thomas, I do feel bad for you. I work on the weekend shift in a shop that covers 4 acers. With only the five of us there I find myself usualy only surrounded by my own pleasent company...    - merl - Wednesday, 11/18/09 21:33:29 EST HOT WIRE: Dave, THAT is what I've been thinking of to cut that stuff!    - merl - Wednesday, 11/18/09 21:35:32 EST Im torn between Refflinghaus, and Peddinghaus. Refflinghaus is a garaunteed 59 HRC to over 1 in. Peddinghaus is forged though, but only made of 1045? WHat is the Face hardess of a Peddinghaus? WHich would you reccomend?    - Jacob Lockhart - Wednesday, 11/18/09 21:37:09 EST If I had a choice and money was no object I would buy a Peddinghaus. For several reasons. 1) The ARE forged. May be the last forged anvils over 100 pounds ever made. This makes them a better investment and a possible collector's item. 2) Consider Steve Kayne's position that a blacksmith FORGES steel. The best tools and high stress parts are still specified to be FORGED no matter what the foundry folks say. 3) No matter how good a casting looks on the outside it could have a fist sized (or larger) lump of sand or dross in it somewhere. Critical castings are X-rayed for this reason and most of them end up being cut into and repaired to pass an X-ray exam. I've had NEW Peddinghaus anvils in my shop twice. One was a 158 pound and the other a 275. Both had to be sold because I could not afford to have a NEW anvil in my shop that could be converted to cash. One went as a prize in the 2000 ABANA Junkyard Hammer contest and the other was raffled by CSI to pay an hosting/advertising client's bill. The second one is the one I photographed for the PeddinghausAnvils.com web site and is in our gallery. I dressed the horn to get it like that. I have not been able to closely inspect a Refflinghaus anvil. Fit and finish wise the Peddinghaus could be better. Refflinghaus might be. But its NOT forged. Neither one will make your work any better or worse. But if you have bad hammer control, do dumb things. . either anvil will get marked.    - guru - Wednesday, 11/18/09 22:22:56 EST Compressor fan blades for jet engines are cast, not forged.    quenchcrack - Thursday, 11/19/09 06:34:10 EST Stuck regulator & lube.... how about powdered graphite? I'm pretty sure that the stuff won't react to anything. QC, on "How It's Made" they had a whole segment on fabbing of jet engine compressor fan blades. According to the footage, the little fins WERE forged, then put through a CNC process to refine tolerances, then x-rayed for imperfections. The episode was shot in '08.    - Nippulini - Thursday, 11/19/09 08:38:15 EST I thought a phd was a post hole digger. Merl, My Auntie and Uncle had a big house as you describe in Cape Girardeau, MO. They heated with coal and the heat was sent upward to a cast iron 1 yard-square, "floor register," (a flat grille). The register was centrally located, so the heat reached two bedrooms, the bath, the kitchen, and the living room. The kitchen was huge and the cook stove was run by what Auntie called "coal oil."    Frank Turley - Thursday, 11/19/09 09:30:54 EST Compressor fan blades for Jet engines are both cast and forged, depending on where in the engine they are located. The front blades, while technically conpressor blades are really propellors as the air flow bypasses the combuster section mostly. The high temp turbine blades are mostly single crystal cast, and the smaller compressor blades are mostly forged fro Ti. The front fan blades are often composite. So both Quench and Nip are right. The critical items like the shafts and the discs that the blades are mounte on are usually forged. Most now have hollow, air cooled shafts. Worked in the factory that forged shafts on upsetters and used to forge the discs and Bliscs.    ptree - Thursday, 11/19/09 09:37:05 EST As Ptree said, some are cast, some are forged. The point was to illustrate that not all castings have potato sized defects cast into them. I saw an $1100 Peddingzoo anvil that had the horn about 15 degrees out of alignment with the axis of the body. It was forged in two pieces then welded together and a weld is essentially a casting. I am not debating the general desireability of a forging over a casting but high quality castings often prove to be very reliable, cost effective alternatives to forging.    quenchcrack - Thursday, 11/19/09 10:07:09 EST Yes Frank, I have a buddy at work that has a heating system like that in his house and he wouldn't have anything else (although his runs on NG)Quiet and no moving parts to stir up the dust. My great aunt and uncle lived in that house untill I was in my early 20s, although by then they would "go south " for the winter. For them, that mean they would close up the house and move to an appartment in Madison from December to the end of March.    - merl - Thursday, 11/19/09 10:15:15 EST Forged vs. Cast: The KEY to my statement is that critical parts are X-RAYed. On the mentioned aircraft parts every single one is X-rayed and the images shipped with the part certs. Allowed flaws are microscopic. My favorite micrometer company was put out of business because they phonied the x-rays (same film for every part) of aircraft parts. . . . THEN, there are castings and there are castings. Modern auto part foundries use methods that almost absolutely prevent any significant inclusions. This is largely required due to focus on zero defects and all the machining, critical nature of the parts AND the fact they are NOT x-rayed. They do however use ultrasonic testing and other methods at the foundry to reject serious errors. Anvils on the other hand are cast mostly in green sand or resin bonded sand. There are NO x-rays, no UT, no testing other than milling the face (on the best) or grinding the face. . THEN there is foundry quality. I've seen imported power hammers with enough iron missing to make an anvil. Also open sand inclusions in cylinder bores! We have also had cases of fly-press nuts (an insert) that looked like old worm-wood from the sand inclusions. This was severe enough that the press locked up the first time it was operated. Any reputable shop would have scraped the part before it was finished. AND there is the little 15 pound Chinese ASO I have that the belt sanded face is ALMOST hiding the high degree of inclusions. Consider the NY-Times article where man-hole covers made in India were being hand cast by naked bare foot men hand carrying ladles of iron down rows of floor molds (a sand pit) in the near dark. . . The scene looked like something from hell or a horror movie. The manager said they "never" had any serious injuries. I guess dead men don't tell tales. Do you think this same manager would lie about other things like the material content . . . One of the biggest advantages of a forging is that the metal has been proven not to have severe flaws. If it survived forging then it cannot be but so bad. But with a casting you don't know unless there has been a lot of testing OR the quality is assured by superior methods. Cast anvils by their very nature SHOULD be considerably cheaper than forged. However, many cast anvils are selling for as much as the forged. LAST. . . Castings can also be a work of art for no more cost than an ugly industrial pattern with poor lines, obvious glue joints and poorly shaped features. The easiest part of making a casting is making the pattern. If the maker takes no pride in or puts no quality into the pattern OR does not know HOW to get a good pattern then what of the rest? The HARD expensive parts of the process have nothing to due with the pattern. If you STUDY the lines of well made tools and look at much of the crap that is being made today it becomes easy to tell who cares and does not care about the product quality. Art and the labor of artists is CHEEP compared to committing to metal. AND even worse, there are good beautiful designs that could simply be copied. But when THAT is done poorly as well what we to think? YES, some of the old anvils were pretty ugly. But they were FORGED and by hand using sledge hammers. It took a very well trained team in great physical condition to produce those works or art and they did so OVER and OVER each one by hand. To make a wood pattern is child's play in comparison. For it to be artless should be a crime. Does a fine beautiful pattern mean the casting is good? No. But at least it shows that the maker cares.    - guru - Thursday, 11/19/09 11:49:10 EST I just wanted to put in a plug for ratholeforge.com cast anvils. I've been using a Rathole for about 3 years. It has nice lines and nice rebound. It is mounted in a box of sand. I believe that they are presently cast in Arizona where the face is Blanchard ground. When delivered to Wyoming, they are hand sand finished on face and horn. It's essentially a German pattern with an "American shaped horn." The cost would be pricey for some, but it is American made, American designed, and hand finished. All of my other anvils are forged or partially forged, as are some of the Trentons, because I gathered them over the years. They were mostly found at farm auctions or through newspaper ads. I like the idea of using a forged anvil, but face it, a lot of it is maudlin feelings. To a smith, the vision of forging such a large mass of iron "brings a little tear," because it is pretty much a thing of the past.    Frank Turley - Thursday, 11/19/09 12:13:57 EST I must admit I do a whole lot more forging on my 515# Mousehole that is a "cast" anvil than on my 410# Trenton that is a forged anvil... Mainly as I like the quiet. Thomas    Thomas P - Thursday, 11/19/09 12:30:17 EST I have a 100Kg (220 lb) Refflinghaus anvil as my main anvil, and I'd put it against any forged anvil any day. Especially as I got it in trade and didn't have to spend the cash they want for 'em these days! The face is certainly hard, but not noticeably moreso than the face on my old 143 lb Peter Wright. The hardest anvil face I've got is on a 100lb Columbian, which is a cast anvil. It's also a very ugly anvil, with mismatched casting seams down the horn and body, and the hardness of the face has resulted in a complete absence of intact edges, rather like the damage often seen on Kohlswa anvils, another cast steel anvil known for being a bit on the hard side. My only complaint with the Refflinghaus is the lack of a step, but that's easily fixed by putting a block in the hardy hole. I also occasionally miss the gentle swayback of the Peter Wright, but not enough to give up the long flat face and perfect edges on the Refflinghaus. The long square "horn" that makes up the heel of the Refflinghaus also comes in very handy for certain tasks that required a smaller bridge in the hardy hole on the PW or other London pattern anvils. Refflinghaus is made in Germany where quality of workmanship is still valued, and it is not owned by an American firm more concerned with the short-term bottom line than with finish quality on such an outdated oddity as an anvil in the modern world, unlike Peddinghaus, now owned and mismanaged by the Ridgid group.    Alan-L - Thursday, 11/19/09 13:06:54 EST Thomas, I think you mean your 515 Fisher. . . All Mousehole anvils were forged. Unless you meant Rathole. . . Yep, the Rathole anvils are a work of art. Very traditional and very clean except for the extras that make it a work of art. Like most American cast steel anvils the foundries do a great job as a matter of pride.    - guru - Thursday, 11/19/09 13:18:43 EST I would offer, having worked in and around commercial forge shops that made forgings of the size of anvils; 1. Forgings are as good or bad as the forging practice. 2. The material is as good or bad as the bar you start with. 3. Both the above apply to castings as well. Given the choice in a critical application, say an aviation fitting to mount a landing gear or mount a wing spar, I would always choose a well made forging over a well made casting. In a high pressure valve or fitting, give me a well made forging every time. In an anvil, I see no real advantage to a forged wrought iron body with a hammer welded top over a high quality cast anvil of good alloy. I have a cast steel anvil and a high quality Trenton composite forged anvil. Both are very good anvils for their size, and oddly, the little 70# cast steel anvil is louder!    ptree - Thursday, 11/19/09 13:19:47 EST Yup I meant Fisher, things are crazy here today and as soon as I can escape this evening I get to pack for the Festival of the Cranes Demo. Mousehole is one brand I have not owned---yet; but I'm slowing down my anvil hunting as I do have a nice set and there are so many others out there that need a decent anvil. I do covet the *big* NIMBA though... Thomas Thomas    Thomas P - Thursday, 11/19/09 15:51:03 EST Merl, I forgot to mention that the abult beverage is indeed still reserved for Quad State, the year of your choosing:) Next year should be excellent.    ptree - Thursday, 11/19/09 17:48:37 EST Ive got a question. Ive forged a bowie blade from a 70's coil spring and quenched it in oil. I then tempered it in the oven for a hour at 400 degrees, When it came out it was blue. Does this sound right. I think i need to normalize, reharden, and then try retempering at a lower heat to a straw color. What do you think?    - davidsb - Thursday, 11/19/09 20:10:30 EST I have a question about tempering. I just made a bowie from a 1970's coil spring. it was quenched in oil and i tried to temper it in the oven. I baked it for an hour on 400 degrees and it came out blue. Do i need to normalize, reharden, and then temper at a lower temperature? i didnt think that temperatures that low could turn the steel blue. What do you think?    dsbarker - Thursday, 11/19/09 20:15:52 EST David, As you have found out measurement devices are not all equal. Temperature is tricky. Hot air rises and the top of an oven or kiln can be hundreds of degrees hotter than the bottom OR where the temperature sensor is located. In broiler type ovens the radiant elements may heat an object much hotter than the air temperature. While blue indicates a temperature of 500 to 600 degrees it may not be too soft for a blade. In many springs it is considered spring temper. As junk yard steel you need to test, test, test. To re-heat treat you do not need to normalize again. But you do need to re-harden IF you want to try tempering again. You will need to test your oven and perhaps use another temperature measurement system. You can test by using polished steel "coupons" and temper color to determine temperature and perhaps calibrate your oven whatever it is. A tempering method I use is to heat a heavy steel plate to the desired temper color and then rest the part to be tempered on it. The trick is to get an even heat on the plate and not overshoot OR need to adjust down. Reduced heat cannot be detected without repolishing your heat sink.    - guru - Thursday, 11/19/09 21:23:49 EST Dave for a blade proberly from 5160 I would do two heats at 400...    - arthur - Thursday, 11/19/09 22:02:11 EST I never thought about anvils being x-rayed for bubbles or cracks, but can see where it would be necessary. Railroad rails are x-rayed for defects. If you see what looks like a small tolly car going down the tracks, look on the side, it will say Sperry Railcar. This railcar x-rays the rail and if a defect is spotted, it sprays a spot of yellow paint on the side of the rail.    Mike T. - Thursday, 11/19/09 23:49:28 EST Mike, my point is they don't x-ray, U.T. or penetrant test anvils.    - guru - Friday, 11/20/09 01:06:53 EST Non Destructive Testing is used on many products,But usually used when failur will be not acceptable in a way that justifies the cost. Railroad rails that fail lead to millions of dollars type accidents and deaths/injuries. Failed aircraft parts same thing. We Hydro tested every single valve we made. We UT tested every single friction welded flange on valves, we PT tested every part on every nuke valve. But then a valve that fails can lead to a Bophal type incident that injuries/kills thousands to 100K humans, and the high cost per item is justified period. That is why we spectro'ed EVERY single bar of metal for compliance to the specification, Hydro tested every single valve, Had tracability back to the mil for EVERY single forging we made, even on a 1/8" NPT pipe ell. Cause we bet the entire company on every single item we shipped. Does an anvil maker bet the company on every produt shipped? depends on the size of the company. If an anvil has a sand inclusion or shrink crack in the center, will people die? probably not. Will a small shrink crack or sand inclusion in the heart of a cast anvil cause the anvil to fail? Probably not. Will a small area that failed to join in a hammer welded top plate fail, might, probably not. In an anvil, probably not may be acceptable. In a Nuke or chemical valve, an aircraft attachment fitting "Probably not" is simply not acceptable. Lets be realistic. 100 years ago a cast anvil was a low cost anvil, low quality anvil. Today, with precision investment casting being used to make aircraft grade parts, in exotic alloys, to extremely high standards, in sizes big enough to yeild the exterior casing of an aircraft jet engine, a cast anvil can be a vey high quality item. Or if made badly, a very bad quality product. But then a forging can be made just as badly. I supect that a really nice, one piece anvil of 250 to 350# could be drop forged under a 25,000# hammer in closed dies. If the quantity was say 200 a year, the cost for the tooling could be paid by charging only $500 each. Thats for the dies. Throw in machining, heat treat, material, the cost of the hammer and maintenance and manpower, and say a little profit and one coul have nicely forged 250# anvils at 200 per year and they would only cost about $3000 each.    ptree - Friday, 11/20/09 07:02:51 EST We are a clay company and recently acquired a really cool clay working machine made by Crosley Manufacturing Company in Trenton NJ. I know they do not exist any more, but would you happen to know what happened to the patterns for the wear parts castings? Who, if anyone, bought the assets?    Ann Engh - Friday, 11/20/09 09:39:45 EST My point about castings is this. There are some really bad foundries AND worse quality control systems. In the two cases I mentioned of large sand inclusions in cylinder surfaces and power screw threads BOTH were situations that would have been obvious to the machinist and others and BOTH were made in employment situations where they dare not reject the part OR that all the parts were so bad that this was business as usual. THEN there was the case of the Czech made anvil that broke in two (nearly at the middle vertically) and the seller would not replace it. . . While quality control has advanced greatly in many cases in others it has regressed to the worst that has every existed in history. Much world trade is in poorly made items that are NEVER returned and complaints never reach OR have any affect on the maker. If *I* sell you a defective product and you come to me about it you will get immediate satisfaction in the way of a replacement or refund. I cannot afford NOT to do so. But this is not the case globally.    - guru - Friday, 11/20/09 11:45:34 EST Guru, we need to separte bad busness practices among, in this case, foundry business and bad manufacturing methods. I am sure there are many unscrupulous forging houses too. I worked for 3 foundries right out of school. Two of them were pretty good, one was on the level of the Chinese ASO makers. None are in business today.    quenchcrack - Friday, 11/20/09 14:39:55 EST You can't make generalities about local suppliers OR global suppliers. Anywhere you can get good support and bad support, no country has a monopoly on poor service. My induction forges are made in China and I've had almost ZERO problems, but they have airmailed me parts for free when needed.    - grant - Friday, 11/20/09 15:09:15 EST I have been working as a plant metallurgist in a forge shop making open die forgings up to 60,000 lbs for the last six and 1/2 years and I have seen the same defects Jock described in castings in forgings. Sand inclusions, flux inclusions and refractory are all present to some degree in forgings since ALL FORGINGS START FROM CASTINGS. If proper forge techinique is not used gross ingot piping (shrinkage cavities) will not be consolidated. The use of a particular process is no gaurantee of qaulity or performance unless said process is done using best practices and appropriate inspection. From a performance point of view, it makes no differnce if and anvil is cast or forged. Critical variables are primarily heat treatment, possibily alloy selection and finish. As a user, the only one you can change is the finish. Personally, I find that design and appearance mean more to me that forged over cast. The specific question was between two reputable German manufacturers. Both have long histories in the anvil making buisness and both have reputations to protect. That being the case, I don't think that you have to fear low quality/poor craftsman ship in either one. The decision should come down to the differnce in hardness of the two anvils, and the design features of each. Since that is a personal preference matter, I don't think you can say "this is better than that" but only "I like this one more than that". By the way, the Pendinghouse is not the only forged anvil be produced today. There is also one being made in Turkey and being sold by Old World Anvils. Patrick    Patrick Nowak - Friday, 11/20/09 17:11:47 EST Patrick, well said.    ptree - Friday, 11/20/09 17:50:10 EST [ CSI - anvilfire MEMBERS Group | Getting Started in Blacksmithing ]