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J. Dempsey  <webmaster> Rev. 7/98, 3/99, 5/2k, 6/2k, Friday, 04/06/01 16:43:25 GMT

UN Conference on Racism: Oddly enough, the UN conference on racism is being held in South Africa as we discuss the same here. The US and Canada did not send representives.
  - guru - Saturday, 09/01/01 04:41:59 GMT

U.N. Conference On Racism: Guru Sir; I must respectfully disagree with you concerning "... Canada not sending representatives to the U.N.conference on racism". There is a Canadian delegation there. It is headed by the Multicultural Minister a Ms. Hedy Fry.
Also, Canada's ambassador to the U.N., a Mr. Paul Heinbecker, is there as Canada's senior official to that conference in Durban, South Africa. The person who is not there is Mr.John Manley, Canada's Foreign Affairs Minister. He would normally be there but he has chosen to stay home, in Ottawa for a special reason. Namely, the blatant highjacking of the conference by some delegatrs who want to turn the meeting into a one-sided diatribe against one country, namely, Israel. The main problem is yet another attempt to pass a resolution equating Zionism with racism. Such a U.N. resolution was repealed, a few years ago, at the U.N.
Canada has officially denounced such a resolution and the attempt to vote on it yet again. The government has stated that they will pull out of the conference if such a resolution is passed.
The conference's purpose was to consider racism, in all it's ugly forms, Worldwide. The meeting was not convened to consider only one issue, and single out and denounce only one country. This issue has shoved aside many other important sessions dealing with other discrimination. Furthermore the meetings of divers Jewish groups have been shouted down and physically obstructed in various ways. The result of which, has forced cancellation of legitimate sessions and dialogue. (some of these groups have left the conference). One Arab country gave away t-shirts with a Nazi swastica superimposed upon a star of david. (the symbol of the Jewish religion). Those are some of the reasons why Minister Manley is not there.
I have just heard that Mr. Jesse Jackson has had a dialogue with Chairman Yasser Arafat and the resolution is supposed to be withdrawn. If this happens, delegatates may yet be able to accomplish the meating's original purpose. That purpose is to examine and discuss issues of racism worldwide. I am writing this note to correct the record.
Respectfully Yours, Slag
  Slag - Saturday, 09/01/01 06:59:03 GMT

Correction: Thank you. I was just repeating what apparently was not a well researched item on an intenational news show.
  - guru - Saturday, 09/01/01 15:17:04 GMT

Pawpaw: no just that you have a sharp tounge and that has tendency to be ...
  OErjan - Saturday, 09/01/01 16:56:14 GMT

(grin) I will admit to being pretty sarcastic at times. (nother grin)
  Paw Paw Wilson - Saturday, 09/01/01 17:24:12 GMT

LOL: who can live and be well without humor as a safety valve?
not me for sure ;-)
  OErjan - Saturday, 09/01/01 19:04:11 GMT

Me either!
  Paw Paw Wilson - Saturday, 09/01/01 19:54:04 GMT

Am I the only one that works in a forge, and pounds hot steel at home too.
  Vern Ables - Saturday, 09/01/01 22:04:46 GMT

Probably. There are other professional smiths here, but most are self employed. We have more hobby smiths than professionals, though.
  Paw Paw Wilson - Sunday, 09/02/01 00:47:34 GMT

A bit of trivia. One of our Frequently Asked Questions refers to the British Imperial system of weight numbers stamped on the side of early English anvils. I found out recently that British bell founders *still use* the same system in their descriptive literature, and they write it one of two ways. For example, a bell might weigh "50cwt. 1qrt. 4lbs." or more simply, "50-1-4". As a memory refresher, a "cwt." is one hundredweight (112 pounds), a "qrt." is one quarter of one hundredweight (28 pounds), and the last number is odd pounds.
  Frank Turley - Sunday, 09/02/01 13:58:31 GMT

Industrial Smiths: Vern, the number is low but we do have a number of folks reading/posting here that work in comercial forge (read BIG hammer, production) shops. Then there are a large number of professionals and hobbiests that run power hammers up to 300 pounds (135kg) or so. And a few larger but average is 100 pounds.

Yeah, I know, still toys in the forging world but a LOT of machine to operate alone doing open die work where you hold tooling in one hand, hot work in the other and balance on one foot while operating the control treadle with the other.

We also have a considerable number of fabricators that do wrought iron work but very little forging and many farriers or ex-fariers that have gotten into decorative work.
  - guru - Sunday, 09/02/01 17:34:18 GMT

Hundred weight: Frank, I'll have to add that note to the FAQ.
  - guru - Sunday, 09/02/01 17:36:10 GMT

Speaking of forms and having to fill out race, I usually put 'Other'

  Ralph - Tuesday, 09/04/01 05:09:00 GMT

Anybody know the where abouts of Chuck Evans? He used to live in Ames,IA. I'd like to ask him some questions about something he wrote in Anvils Ring awhile back.
  Pete - Tuesday, 09/04/01 12:23:44 GMT

I've been known to put "Human" in that block.
  Paw+Paw+Wilson - Tuesday, 09/04/01 13:49:42 GMT

Forms: One year I put "other" on a US census form and they sent someone out to find out what "other". As I mentioned earlier, the last bank financial form I filled out said the bank officer would make the determination if we left it blank. . .

The same year they asked if we had "complete plumbing facilities", without further definition. We only have a shower, no tub. My wife liked a tub, so we did NOT have "complete plumbing facilities". . . So I said NO. Now what they wanted to know is "Do you have indoor plumbing including a flush toilet?". A year later the accessor's office had us down as "no plumbing". So all the BS about the privacy of census information is just that BS!

I think most bureaucratic forms designers are morons. . .
  - guru - Tuesday, 09/04/01 15:08:00 GMT

bureaucratic forms designers are the larva stage of politicians.......
  Ralph - Tuesday, 09/04/01 17:56:16 GMT

Sheet metal: Was readig a copyright 1926 Jr. Hi School text book about sheet metal practice, what does IC bright tin mean?
  Glenn Funderburk - Wednesday, 09/05/01 02:40:46 GMT

Forms: Larva stage... that's a good one Ralph!

We were unfortunate enough to get the long census form. I threw out the first one. The "local census worker" called and sent another. I threw that one out also. Then they started to visit us. We had three separate "local workers". I told them all the same thing. I'll fill out the form if you will answer the same questions to me. Obviously they didn't want to trust me with their information. I asked them why I should trust them, if they didn't trust me. The first two got the point and went away. The third was gung ho and threatened the fine. I countered with a different suggestion and he went away too. Some people just don't like it when you point out to them that they are standing between you and a target.

There were questions on that long form that were obviously going to be used by marketing people. To me, it was another example of gummint being run by business. It's Pathetic how blatant they are becoming.
  Tony - Wednesday, 09/05/01 12:12:21 GMT

census: Tony// Your point is well taken. If you are left with no other options but to answer. How are they going to know that you answered truthfully?
  slag - Thursday, 09/06/01 02:20:02 GMT

Gummint: Slag, I didnít mention that part of the exercise was to get the 12 year old son to think about gummint. Right about that time, his teachers were filling him with the usual crap about how the gummint is here to help us and we should like people who try to control us and take our hard earned dollars in the process, to feed their own egos and the pockets of their buddies.

So I wouldnít have made much of an impression on the boy if I had just lied on the form. Two wrongs donít make a right and all that.... I suppose that if it came to paying a fine or lying, I would have to admit that I would lie. I take my principles up to the point that they cause me to give even more hard earned money to the yahoos.

Just so I am clear. There are many functions that are just fine, I do not like how our gummint operates. Way to much control and cronyism. But it IS better here than anywhere else in the world I have been. Without question. And I have been many more places than the average person. We do need a central gummint. And I am a non violent criticizer. Usually, embarrassment is more effective than violence. Again, two wrongs donít make a right. But I would fight if it came to that. The first two local workers got the message with embarrassment. The third was either too much of a jerk or too much of an idiot to know that he was playing into a disgusting game. So he needed something other than embarrassment. In fact he couldn't be embarrassed by his actions. Unfortunate.

Of course, there are those who will think Iím the jerk for not wanting to give out lots of personal information. They are welcome to their opinion. They are just not welcome to be near me. grin
  Tony - Thursday, 09/06/01 13:39:20 GMT

I've seen a fair amount of the world too. Like you, far more than the average citizen. And I agree, that while our government isn't perfect, it's way the he** ahead of all the rest.

But I value my privacy as much as you do. Folks are permitted to broach my privacy ONLY with my permission.
  Paw Paw Wilson - Thursday, 09/06/01 14:03:48 GMT

Privacy, Government and Lies: When social security was passed there was a huge uproar about it being an invasion of privacy and smacking of a totalitarian government such as the Nazi's in Europe. "Zee papers. You must have zee papers!" was not a joke. Branding people with serial numbers was NOT a joke. It was considered a serious EVIL.

Congress, our U.S. Goverment PROMISED it would NOT be a "national identification number" used to track people. In fact the law had written into it that your S.S number cannot be used in a criminal investigation. . . (The IRS shoots THAT full of holes).

Today, BABIES are issued a "social security" number. You cannot claim them as a tax deduction otherwise. Children cannot start kindergarten without a "social security" number. You cannot open a bank account in America without your national ID number. . .

We are only one step away from newborns being barcoded at birth with their national ID number. My father's generation who was promised that SS would not be a national ID will not live to see it. But OUR generation may live to see it and OUR children will definitely live to see it.

Never, ever, ever trust what the government tells you. I remind you of the official U.S. government policy concerning treaties with Native Americans, "We make treaties, we can break them." Why should ANY country trust a treaty with the U.S. when that is our official policy?

I am not an anarchist. I like law and order. But I would not mind seeing us rebuild the U.S. government from the ground UP based on its original principals.

I also think that it should be a capital crime to lie during a political campaign. It is already ilegal to "buy" votes but is that not what a presidential candidate does when they promise a tax cut or refund? In Virgina we had a governor win because he "bought" the election with a promissed repeal of the automobile property tax. . . Hipocracy.
  - guru - Thursday, 09/06/01 17:26:57 GMT

Gummint: Jock, I agree with it all! Especially the part about it being illegal for a politician to lie. In a campaign or not.

Let me take this opprtunity to waste more of your time with a copy of something I posted in the crisis forum. See below.

Iím not an expert in government! But I know this to be a fact. With few exceptions, what I do, affects my immediate neighbors, wherever I am. Not anyone that is more than 5 miles away. So who should I be accountable to but my immediate neighbors? Yes, I must also be accountable to the new locality when I travel. And there must be some commonality of some rules from one area to another to make that efficient.

Personally, I think people should be *required* to vote. With penalty for not voting. On all topics. With complete information including costs per capita. As Jock said, it is so easy to communicate now. We have no *need* for representation in my opinion. Only a vote totaller and a recorder. The only people I know that want representation, are those who do not trust themselves to make an informed decision. Or those who donít have the stomach to solve their own local issues. And there appears to be a lot of them. And THAT is what I consider to be the real problem. Lack of education of the general population. And lack of desire to solve your own problems.

Yes, we must have a common *government* to handle things like foreign aggression. We must stand united on many issues. But why would we ALL not vote on those issues we must be united on?

Take NOTHING for granted. Question it all.

When it is no longer locally controlled, the locality loses control.

And hereís the real rub.... In the end, the locality will exercise control anyway. At some point, any representative will cross the line and the electing locality will remove them. So, even if you want to get rid of the responsibility, eventually, you will have to take control back. History is full of examples. Civil wars, anvil shoots, etc.

Hereís another reality. You canít make rule verbage that fairly covers all real human circumstances. Inevitably, the innocent will be punished unfairly by rules. However, if rules are administered locally, the intent of the rule, which is usually good, is much easier to follow. And if it is abused locally, the locals are much more likely to deal with the administrator of the rule.

If it werenít for rules and laws, I could, and would, solve all of my problems locally. And I would do it fairly. Yes, really! I can do that.

I hope I'm not ticking anyone off with lack of smithing content.
  Tony - Thursday, 09/06/01 19:53:36 GMT

I may be incredibly nieve being young and all (a teen) but I feel as metioned about the child being told the goverment was so grand and wonderful. One thing that I noted is that the school system mimcs the goverment after you get past the teachers. You have administration who act as though if you don't listen to them they can open a dark pit of he** to put you in for time out. This works the same as goverment officails saying that if you don't do what they want they will go ahead and make something to stick you with. I hope that a ramble won't bug to many people but I warrant myself as a slight history nut.

Well I know that our goverment is better than anywhere else but the goverment is just confused. Think about the pledge, it is out dated, "I pledge alegiance to the flag of the USA, and to the republic...", Since when have when we been a republic, it is true though that the USA was origanally supposed to be one similar to the greek and roman republic. But even things like communism look great on paper, thats where I beleive it ends. If you take all the people lacking trade skills,modesty, and that contain gieant egos then you have an award wining politician.

This may not concern any of you but it may have some precedence. In english I wrote on the board
Those that can, do
Those that can not, teach
Those that can not teach, administrate
Sorrowfuly enough she took offence though none was meant,I tried to explain but fumbled my words now tha I am typing I can think clearly. What to me it means i that if you could do something than you would, if you knew something about it but couldn't make a living by it then you teach others, but if your unskilled and dimwited then you tell all those that would teach and do how they should go about it. That is how I think it works for the goverment, a large bunch of useless no brainers making laws to line their pockets and trying to make things simple for themselves so they might acctually be able to do it.

Any and all comments about rambling and critisizme for speaking past my years is welcome, sorry for taking up smithy space
  aldron - Thursday, 09/06/01 23:26:32 GMT

School Daze: Aldron, I did the same stuff when I was in school. I wrote a paper on how the only thing HS English classes did was breed more HS English teachers to torture more students. . . I failed senior English. It is nearly impossible to fight the system and really bad to do it at your age. Wait until your future is secured, then you can screw up your life later.

But. . the English teacher WAS realy bad. One of several I had so many years.

Now the fellow I had for summer English (so I could graduate) was a GREAT teacher. A black man named Garnel Stamps. He made Shakespear FUN. He was excited about teaching it, and his enthusiasim carried over to the students. I graduated with an A in English. Mr. Stamps is now a leader in the local black community and I think still teaching and a poet.

My problem with the English curriculum started with "Dick and Jane" the most moronic stuff ever written. Did you know that the "Cat and the Hat" was written to be a reading text book? YEP! But the schools adopted "Dick and Jane", middle class white kinds in a very typical WASP suburb. . . Happily years after all the "Dick and Jane" books are (hopefuly) in the dump, more kids learn to read from Dr. Sueuss than anywhere else.

In the third grade I read an OLD copy of Daniel Defoe's "Robinson Crusoe". It was a struggle, the type was small and the font a standard but NOT the sans-serif stuff used in schools. I had to ask my mother what that "g" was (the type with the closed decending loop and extra little top stroke). The language was (may still be) difficult. But after that I read everything in the house of interest to me at the time. Later that became "Science News Letter", MACHINERY'S HANDBOOK, and encylopedia articles.

Meanwhile in school we were still reading, "See Dick. See Dick run. Run Dick run". . .

Reading texts have gotten much better. But they still speak DOWN to students. Classes have gotten smaller. When I went through school the STANDARD class size was 32. From Kindergarten through HS.

I don't recommend teaching the Bible in elementary school but before McGuffy's Reader 90% of the population that learned to read learned reading the Bible. The King James version is written pretty much the same way as Robinson Crusoe as far as vocabulary and difficulty of reading.

When students START reading at this level there is nothing that will be too difficult to read later. The educational system entirely under values the intellegence and capacity of a five year old to learn.

On the other hand those teachers you are torturing are treated like crap by the system. In Viginia a single parent of two if employed as a teacher with 20 years experiance is paid so low that their children are elegible for food stamps and free lunches. . . But in our county those teachers are forbidden to apply for public assistance! They might embarass the system.

My wife quit teaching after 28 years. She was actualy pushed out by a system that didn't like people to stand up for themselves or speak the truth. She took a two year trade school machinist course and went to work getting paid more as an apprentice machinist than she did as a +25year Virginia school teacher with 6 years of education. And the new job is low pressure. She doesn't have stacks of papers to take home and grade and parents to put up with. . .

Public school teachers have no life of there own. Folks think they work a short day but most work an hour before school starts until an hour after school gets out and then have work to take home. They get paid at classic WOMWEN'S rates which means a LOT less than the job is worth. The system expects teachers to be supported by a spouse. They are called "professionals" and have annual salary contracts but are treated like hourly workers if they miss work and are not paid for overtime, special meetings, training sessions. . .

Its surprising that more teachers aren't the ones that "Go Postal". As a group teachers probably take more tranqualizers and anti-depresants than any other.

So, if you think YOU are treated miserably by your teachers then consider how badly the system treats them.
  - guru - Friday, 09/07/01 15:41:26 GMT

Dogs, Sailors and Irish, keep off the grass. Before my time. My Grandpa spoke German when he started school. I just check " Other " on the forms, and write in " Human ". I celebrete my Irish Heritage. You know boys, Tony and Jim Lewis are hittin the nail pretty square. I know some Amish Blacksmiths. Sharp fellers. Everbody shoulda seen the old Mexican I usta watch play guitar in the Cantina. 3 steel strings, and 3 "Triline" strings. Sounded like a symphony. I personally don't give a damn what color you are, long as you ain't so full of yourself that is bleeds over to the edges and on to the floor. Most ain't like that, but I don't tolerate that too good. I ALWAYS try to make folks welcome. Don't vote, don't bitch. Don't work, be hungry. CAN'T WORK, different story. Been there did that too. I've partied with the best, and worked with the best as well. All humans. Me n' Lucky got a Captains Mast for drivin' a drunken Ordinance truck one time. Me n' Senaido cooked ribs on the beach while we fished. Crissedsake fellas, life's too short. Hand the man a hammer ( even if it's a Woman ) and tell 'em to hit the stuff they holdin in their other hand while it's still red, and don't hit the anvil. I'm a minority in my own home. Wife, and one son, 2 daughters. Son in law evened it up, but now THEY got 2 daughters. Jim, they know I'm a minority when I walk in to the room, 'cause I'm ugly, and missin some hair. I run my mouth too much sometimes, but I'm workin on it. Best I can do.
  Steve O'Grady - Friday, 09/07/01 15:42:37 GMT

And as for the Govmment, thats an entirely differrent deal. It grows too large. It wastes. It thinks up stuff like problems with race relations that don't even exsist sometimes. Closest I've ever been to being discriminated against was not gettin a job with the railroad 25 years ago because of my skin color. Man told me so in unglowing terms. My last sentence of my last post was meant to single me out from all you handsome dogs with a full head of hair. Aldron, you on the right track. Stand for something, or fall for anything. Seems in my life, that I've learned more form folks that really didn't appear too sharp, and might be of color other than white ( might not ). Just folks. Smithin is a VERY rewarding part of my life, and may someday be my entire income ( and I may get hungry sometimes). I try to learn something everyday. Don't make 50Ę worth of difference what color the fella is thats teaching me, long as he don't think he deserves to be teaching me because of his color. Now, about the comment earlier regarding handing a hammer to somebody even if it's a woman. Don't even start. My daughters came home from school full of wimmens lib stuff, and took me forever to get them straightened out. Simple question was : "What is it that you wanna do, that the men is holding you back ?"
Took a while, but they had to admit that mebbe the men wasn't as bad as they was made out to be. Same goes for race in my opinion, just different verbage. And for the "N" word, theys 4 kinds. White, Black, Male, and Female ( white being all other colors inclusive ). Might seem strong words, but covers the problem for me. Anybody's welcome at the shop, long as they don't try to steal from me. They gonna get caught. I welcome ALL folks thats interested in Smithing. Shame I gotta say that it don't matter about their skin color, or gender ( either Male or Female ). That part should be a gimmie, but guess not.
  Steve O'Grady - Friday, 09/07/01 19:09:55 GMT

Well said. Especially the last two sentences.

But it isn't a gimmie. I've run into a few folks that I've had to "explain" things to over the years. Spect Jim L. has too.
  Paw Paw Wilson - Friday, 09/07/01 19:42:23 GMT

SPAM WARS: A spammer is using return addresses on our server to send spam. If you get mail from:

decoy at anvilfire OR
beads at forginghammers

It is not from us. These are bogus addresses being used to send out spam. The errors and "remove" mail are coming back to me.

NEVER respond to the remove address on spam. If it is not a dead or phoney address, all the spammers do is mark you as an active reader of spam and send you more as well as sell your name to other spammers as a "good" name. Yeah, real low lifes.

  - guru - Sunday, 09/09/01 17:16:15 GMT

more. . . The spamming culprits have been tracked down and their sites and access shut down. The problem IS the pros have their own servers running in countries that WANT their business. These guys will learn. Unlike the Nigerian scammers that keep using public services. If you report those guys to Yahoo or AOL (or whatever service) their return box is closed immediately.
  - guru - Sunday, 09/09/01 23:00:17 GMT

Anti-Spam System: we have been using on the guru page is now active on this page.

Your e-mail address will be encrypted on the page and only work from here.
- guru - Monday, 09/10/01 06:28:58 GMT

- guru - Monday, 09/10/01 06:32:02 GMT

If one knows anything about the faceless cowards responsible for today's plane crashes, one may contact
  Frank Turley - Wednesday, 09/12/01 01:57:46 GMT

cobbling: In a recent "Guru's Den" post, there was mention of cobbling up a nice block of steel. I've often wondered why we use the word "cobble" this way. In fact, a friend's wife used to call him "Captain Cob Job"...maybe still does. Here's one theory. A cobbler mends shoes and doesn't make shoes; shoemakers make shoes. So, when a cobbler *does* try to make shoes, he/she screws them all up.
Frank Turley - Thursday, 09/13/01 11:02:03 GMT


From the Oxford Universal Dictionary:

Cobble: To mend roughly or clumsily, to patch, to put together roughly or clumsily.

Cobbler: One who mends shoes. A botcher.
Paw Paw Wilson - Thursday, 09/13/01 22:12:23 GMT

I know PawPaw, but haven't you wondered why? Surely, there were competent cobblers as well as mediocre and poor. Today, there are some pretty good shoe repairmen and women, and they don't cobble the shoes; ie., mess them up. I'll bet there's an old story behind this.
Frank Turley - Thursday, 09/13/01 22:56:47 GMT

There very well may be a story behind that, at least it seems as though there should be.

But I don't know what it is.
Paw Paw Wilson - Friday, 09/14/01 00:59:47 GMT

Cobble: Cobble stone? For us ex masons around here, cobble stone pavings are "pieced" together. I suspect that like many other english language uses, using cobble to descibe a piece of steel was a misuse of a term. For instance. When we say "cool" meaning "that is really interesting" it has nothing to do with the use of cool to describe temperature.

Not to poke at the guru. I've used the term the same way to descibe metal work also. Cobbled together POS. There, I am using the piecing terminology. But also implying poorly done work. Much cobble paving was done poorly also. Usually because it was not done by properly trained masons. I suspect, but do not know, that the "poorly done" part comes from cobble paving. I wonder if I'm correct. Where's a linguist when you need one?

Frank, you get the esoteric question of the month award for that one! Grin.
Tony - Friday, 09/14/01 13:56:19 GMT

Pavement: Tony, Your theory sounds better than the shoe mending one.
Frank Turley - Friday, 09/14/01 21:21:34 GMT

Smithing Opportunity: Friends: If you should be in the Perry, OK area Sunday afternoon, Sept. 16, please join me at the Cherokee Strip Museum for the Annual Open House. I'll have the fresh air smithy going about 1:00 PM and would enjoy having others of you participate in this opportunity to show the community how things can be made from hot metal. The Museum is on the North side of Fir Ave. at the far West edge of town -- just about 1/2 mile East of I-35. Bring your portable equipment or just show up and use the tools I'll have on hand. Jim C.
- Jim Carothers - Friday, 09/14/01 23:16:35 GMT

cobble: I consulted the Compact Oxford English Dictionary new edition and did not have much luck. This dictionary is a microprint edition of the 12 volume plus 4 volume supplement Oxford English Dictionary. The dictionary defines cobble as (among many similar definitions, such as cobble stones) transitive verb. To mend or repair roughly or clumsily; to patch up. The dictionary then gives several quotations that use the word. The earliest is from 1496. They say "... of the derivation nothing certain is known: the suggestion that the source is an Old French coubler variety of coupler, join together is NOT (emphasis mine), tenable."
Not much help, but the large Oxford is usually the final authority, except for researching philologists. In other words the origin is a mystery.
slag - Saturday, 09/15/01 02:53:05 GMT

Tree Project: Tree project. A similar thing has come up in regards other places. A symbolic tree in New Zealand was cut down by protesters. At the time Kiwi suggested as replacement made by blacksmiths.

Its an interesting project. It would need to be headed up by some one or some group with a lot of time (as well as money) to put into the project. As a piece of iron sculpture it would be best if it were housed indoors such as in the foyer of a large building, perhaps the replacement of the World Trade Center (which WILL be built).
- guru - Sunday, 09/16/01 13:40:34 GMT

New site: I have our new web site up and running in its infant stages. . Check it out and give a few oppinions it will help greatly. Matt Leddy. Leddy Iron.
- Matt - Monday, 09/17/01 11:13:26 GMT


Someone sent me a picture of the WTC in 2005. Building one was taller than the other four buildings and had an American flag
on top of it.

I lost the graphic (operator head space error) and now I need to forward it to a friend.

Anybody got it?
Paw Paw Wilson - Monday, 09/17/01 20:35:31 GMT

Prayer: Got this from my boss, No telling where it originated

NOW that the President has called us to prayer.....

NOW that Congress has called us to prayer.....

NOW that our Governor has called us to prayer....

NOW that the city Mayor has called us to prayer....

NOW that the "liberal" media and most other branches of
our American society have called us to prayer.....

AND NOW that our churches are assembling in special prayer....

"Honorable" Justices of the Supreme Court, I have only one question..
Would it be O.K. to pray in our schools........??
- Mills - Tuesday, 09/18/01 21:29:28 GMT

Prayer in Schools: Mills, Etal, This forum is open to almost any discussion but I have had several folks ask that we stick to smithing related discussions and that this one could dominate our forum to the point that we would not be able to get a smithing word in for months, maybe years.

On that note I will make a few comments and ask that these be the last word. If you would like to discuss it by email we can do that. If there is enough interest then we could rededicate the ABANA-Crisis forum to this purpose since that has seemed to pass with no resolution.

When I went through public elementary school in the late 1950's and early 60's not only did we say prayers, we were required, and graded on the memorization of passages of the Bible (King James version). I was never asked if I were Christion (Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox. . .), Moslem, Jewish, Zorastrian, Druid, Buddhist, Shinto, Confucianist, Jainist, Taoist, Sikh, Bahai . . .or "God fobid" an atheist.

Supose I had been Moslem and was bold enough to ask that I could bring my prayer rug and be alowed to pray at MY religion's proscribed times? You can imagine the response of my rural Southern Babtist teacher, Methodist and Babtist school mates (many of whom's Daddy's were members of the KKK as well as the school board or sherrifs office).

American schools assummed you were a protestant of some sort and if not, too bad, they were going to make you one. For a country founded largely on freedom of religion this was hipocritical and just as stupid as Islamic extreamists labeling everyone that does not believe exactly as they do as the devil and their enemy. The Supreame Court realized that we were doing the wrong thing and prohibited prayer in government sponsored schools.

Prior to the American Revolution many States had State religions. In Virginia it was the Episcopal Church. Catholics had to have their own communities and NEVER admited publicly that they were Catholic, otherwise their neighbors would not do business with them or socialize with them. It was better to be gay or an atheist than Catholic in Colonial Virginia.

After the American Revolution the idealism of our constitution garanteeing freedom of religion and seperation of church and state sorted out many of these probelms. But as late as the 1960's when Kennedy ran for president the fact that he was Catholic was a major campaign issue and many thought it would prevent his winning the election.

Many parts of our Constition and Bill of Rights were compromizes at the time and did not fully realize the idealism of the times. Many (Patrick Henry being the most vocal on the subject) wanted the equality of both women and non-whites included but held back because they knew our government would fail if it were THAT revolutionary. These ideals extended to freedom of (or lack of) religion. It took a terrible civil war to end slavery, it took another 75 years for women to gain the vote, and nearly another 100 years for us to state that ALL humanity had equal rights under the law and that it was the duty of our goverment to protect those rights. And almost 200 years after the signing of the declaration of independence the Supreame court finaly took forced religion out of our public schools.

America has more government protected freedoms than any other country on the planet. Freedom of religion is one of those protected freedoms. To allow prayer in public schools is too allow the tyranny of state sponsored religion to be forced on those the least able to defend themselves against it.

On the other hand, I believe that our schools should be able to teach comparitive religions. The problem with that is that you would also have to include the bad things done by religion along with the good. The Christian religion has some very dark periods just as do some other religions. If you teach the evils done in the name of one religion then to be fair you must teach the evils done in the name of all the others including Christianity. Are you ready for that?
- guru - Wednesday, 09/19/01 16:51:26 GMT

belief systems: Let's hear it for the Guruissimo: a hearty three cheers for a devilishly difficult subject handled with grace and eloquence in a terrible time. 'Nuff said! Let's stick to ironwork here. (And, of course, sex.) Meanwhile, everybody's gotta believe in something, and I believe I'll have another drink.
Cracked Anvil - Wednesday, 09/19/01 17:42:15 GMT


I have to add my compliments to Cracked Anvil's. That's a difficult subject to cover with fairness to all sides.

As a Catholic (and former Southern Baptist), I can testify that there is STILL some predjudice in the south that targets us Papists. (grin)

You handled the subject extremely well. And like you, this is my last message on the subject. Also like you, I am willing to discuss this in e-mail with anyone that wishes to do so. Or in another forum, if the need exists.

Cracked, may I join you? Make mine a Salty Dog, chilled Stolinacha Vodka, please.
Paw Paw Wilson - Wednesday, 09/19/01 22:25:51 GMT

Thumbs up for Rev. Jock
  Pete F - Thursday, 09/20/01 07:43:09 GMT

I must say that there are some things that the good Guru said that I disagree with and would be happy to talk about via email. Nuf said.
Wayne Parris - Thursday, 09/20/01 13:14:30 GMT

Since the Guru and I are in agreement, and since he's busy as he** with anvilfire, care to discuss them with me? I'm willing if you are.
Paw Paw Wilson - Thursday, 09/20/01 18:17:39 GMT

Church and State: The fact that we can discuss the seperation of Church and State in a public forum is what makes it very important to have it. It is one of the things that makes our country great. Those that seek to destroy us do not have this freedom.
- guru - Thursday, 09/20/01 19:20:47 GMT

vodka, as in Salty Dog: Unknow how to make mixed drinks, Paw Paw. Sorry. What we do here at the Cracked Anvil Center for Analysis is, we pour the spirits, straight, now, mind you, no blends (unless that's all there is in the house, from when my mother-in-law confiscated my brother-in-law's last pint of Canadian Club or Four Roses or whatever other sludge he's been getting into and stashed it in our closet) into a warm, dry glass, no ice, no quinine water, no nothing. Then we drink it. And we analyze, see. And then, maybe, since that one was so good, and go us so tauntingly close to the epicenter of the cosmos, why, we might just.... And you are certainly welcome to join-- bringing your own dog, of course. We have lots of salt around now that I've gone hypertense. Me, I think this is a lot more interesting than haggling over where to put the fire pit for the Zoroastrians, and where the cobra-worshipers will sit, and all like that there.
Cracked Anvil - Thursday, 09/20/01 23:24:20 GMT

pipe down!: Put a sock in it, Cracked!
Goods Inward - Thursday, 09/20/01 23:26:03 GMT

Hey, If we can have a good respectful discussion on religion, I'm in! I want to learn some of the mideastern stuff. I'll make it clear up front that I don't think the WTC and pentagon stuff is religious in nature though. Guru, open up the crisis forum for religion? Wayne, bring some good stuff. I personally, do NOT want public schools to teach religions. Social differences, yes. Religions, no. Freedom from religion should also include the freedom from the SUPPRESSION of religion. Equal time for all.

One can always get a smithing word in. Just put it in!

Cracked, lay by the naysayers. No sock required as far as I'm concerned. Goods Inward? What is that?

Paw Paw, ever try kettle one or sky vodka? I like sky for mixing and kettle one straight up.

Tony - Friday, 09/21/01 00:22:07 GMT

Cracked, I can see that I'm going to have to fix you at least one drink. First time we meet, I'll make sure to have the ingedients for a Salty Dog. Chilled Stoly, Grapefruit Juice, over crushed ice in a Salted Margarita glass.

Tony, If the guru decides to open that forum, I'll join. Also, I'll try Kettle One or Sky, either one, if you'll tray a Salty Dog as described above.

Now for drinking straight;

I don't think anything is any better than 14 year reserve, Oban Single Malt.

In Fact I believe I'll go have one! (grin)

Paw Paw Wilson - Friday, 09/21/01 01:02:02 GMT

Paw Paw, I've always got some Stoli around. My brother drinks it. And Salty dogs (grapefruit juice, fresh squeezed, and vodka, with a salted rim) have been Sunday morning fare in my family. Right after Church. I hate the color pink, but pink grapefruit juice is best. I know a Norwegian who won't drink anything but frozen Finlandia. but he takes 240 degree saunas too.

I just finished listening to George W. Bush. The man speaks well. The path is clear. No questions left unanswered as far as I'm concerned. I'd hate to be the Taliban right now.

Guru, open up that forum please. I'll check in tomorrow. With respect for all viewpoints.
Tony - Friday, 09/21/01 02:09:46 GMT

I probably shouldn't admit this, but I've been known to fix a Virgin Salty Dog with pink grapefruit juice.

Cracked, just leave it alone! (grin)
Paw Paw Wilson - Friday, 09/21/01 02:19:49 GMT

religion: There must be a good movie you could go see. Or, hey, maybe even write! Or a book group you could join. Or you could go read to the blind. Or maybe go out to the shop and alphabetize the star drills. Or polish your hammer heads. Or true up your screwdriver bits. Or separate the panhead sheetmetal screws from the wood screws. Or make some rivets. Or that can of bent nails you've been saving? Straighten 'em. Or, I know, those anvil tools you've been saving up that railroad track to make? Then, by cracky, now's the time, lads! Anything, anything, but come on, you guys, spare us a discussion of religion.
Sean O'Blivious - Friday, 09/21/01 03:03:48 GMT

AMEN Broother Sean (O'Blivious).
slag - Friday, 09/21/01 04:04:33 GMT

Oblivious. Appropriate selection? grin. Sorry, couldn't resist.

Good discourse is always much better than your organizing or entertainment alternatives, but I will respect your anonymous request.

I'll just lay one more on you. Where, in the constitution, are the words "separation of church and state" ?

Back to smithing.....
I'm getting closer to having the parts to build a Nazel like hammer. I acquired two new 12.5" OD by 2.5" thick by 22" long normalized 1026 hot formed seamless tubes today. A supplier screwup. I had to pay $20 for the two of them though. They look like they have compressor and work cylinders in them that I need to let out. I had some other tubes earlier, but they were already machined with features I didn't really want. So these are better. And I have some ductile iron round for the pistons, etc.

Now, I suppose, I'll have to find some Nazel drawings somewhere and start burning inserts on the lathe.

Right after, or in between, all the other half done stuff. grin.

Tony - Friday, 09/21/01 13:06:05 GMT

Tony; Or the federalist papers for that matter.
For those who doubt, please read the First amendment to the Constitution and then lets start the discourse.
Wayne Parris - Friday, 09/21/01 13:36:16 GMT

religion, The Constitution, The Federalist Papers : If you don't care for O'Blivious's syllabus for the semester, how about a nice home study program, then? Calculus, anyone? We could do group-chat re integrals. Study phase diagrams to better our understanding of heat-treating special alloys. Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz....
Armitage Shanks - Friday, 09/21/01 14:01:45 GMT

New Topic - Contest: This is the last of our mathematical contests. It could be construed to be related to metal working but is generaly not unless you make very specific items.

For what purpose is the the reciprocal of the twelth root of two OR the twelth root of a binary series (2, 4, 8, 16, 32. . .) used.

This is a common constant used in our lives every day, yet is so esoteric that it is almost never published in references dealing with its application.

Do not post quesses or answers on our pages. The first e-mail to me with the correct answer wins yet another anvilfire cap and the honor of being probably the only person on the planet (or at least 1 out of tens of millions) to know the answer to this one. Please do not send me guesses. You either know this one or you do not.

OBTW - PI is an odd number.
- guru - Friday, 09/21/01 14:58:33 GMT

religion: We see several angles to this question of religion-as-topic-for-the-hammerin: 1)this here ain't a democracy, it's Jock Dempsey's Anvilfire website, a sole proprietorship sustained by ads, membership and a lot of hard work. So, if he says 86 the religion, that's it. 2) the big problem is, see, subject can be borrrrrring. (Boredom, not the heartbreak of psoriasis, is the number one public health crisis of our time, so let's all do our part.) How about, then, in the interest of keeping the ad support and the membership level high, some criteria? Here at the Cracked Anvil Center for Analysis, we have come up with some: Brevity: in general, 25 words max. Testaments of How Meaningful My Faith Is To Me, 10 words. Divine Communications: God Spoke to Me in My Forge, 15 words-- unless She had something really interesting to say. How to make a telepathically-controlled clamp, for example. Miracles: likenesses of saints appearing on the shop wall, miraculous healings, etc. 15 words, max. Stigmata, 10 words. Out of Body experiences: visions of Paradise, etc.: 12 words --unless you brought back pictures. Other categories may occur to you. Send 'em in. We could have a weekly contest! Stay tuned.
Cracked Anvil - Friday, 09/21/01 15:10:46 GMT

sacrilege!: I hope you still think you're funny when we are roasting you at the stake, you feckless wretch! Mocking our most Holy beliefs!
Arthur Dimmesdale - Friday, 09/21/01 15:48:05 GMT

Incantations and spells: Cracked, you forgot incantations and spells. Anybody with one that works for invoking divine intervention in welding cast iron, please post it soonest.
- Jorge deLaTerious - Friday, 09/21/01 15:50:00 GMT

Longship Company in Philadelphia Tomorrow: I'll be hanging out at the American Swedish Museum in Philadelphia tomorrow as part of their Viking Day activities. Not much in the way of smithing or metalwork, besides whatever we wear on our back or carry in our hands, but we'll have our faering boat, the Gyrfalcon, there on display. Plus the museum has some nice stuff in it, such as a fragment of pattern welded blades, a renaissance (as I remember) chest with lock, and other items of interest.

If you're in the area, swing by if you can. We'll be there from about 1:00 to 4:00, then back to Maryland for a rigging party on the Fyrdraca at Solomons Island on Sunday afternoon.

For more information:

Visit your National Parks:

Go viking:

American Swedish Historical Museum
Bruce Blackistone - Saturday, 09/22/01 01:12:14 GMT

Re religion;
This is america and we all get to go to helll in the handbasket of our own choosing.
Please keep yer religion to yourself and don't get any on matter what the flavor.
People are so dinky, and the universe so large
that we are all inadaquate to deal with such matters.
When we do, we end up describing our own limits.
Cracked; Making a telepathically controled clamp is suprisingly easy. All you have to do is just....
Darn...that was my 15 words.
  ironyworks in strange ways - Saturday, 09/22/01 06:17:18 GMT

ironyworks: Gotcha.
Cracked Anvil - Saturday, 09/22/01 16:14:22 GMT

Saltfork Conference: Information for the Saltfork Craftsmen Conference Oct. 13/14 Guthrie, OK can be had at Click on FrontierShop. Jim C.
- Jim Carothers - Saturday, 09/22/01 16:54:04 GMT

A non blacksmithing post for inquiring minds.: The seperation of church and state is currently defined by the U.S. supreme court in what is commonly called the "Lemon test".
- Jim-E - Saturday, 09/22/01 17:51:19 GMT

Mills: Jock, you must have cringed at my post and I apologize for acting so recklessly in a public forum.

Just obtained my first blower from a friend I just met. He had wearied of trying to unstick it and it is stuck! Have hosed it with B'laster for two days w judicious heat and tapping. Got the crank and the fan off tonight. Will hit again tomorrow

Mills - Sunday, 09/23/01 03:31:33 GMT

anvil search: : i am looking for an anvil, over 100lbs, that won't cost me an arm and a leg
big al - Sunday, 09/23/01 05:36:42 GMT

big al and Mills, Thanks for talking about smithing stuff. Maybe you clicked the "Refresh" button? Re anvils, sometimes farm auctioneers will mail you free Sale Bills for upcoming auctions, and they will have a partial list of what's going to be there. You might waste a day walking around looking at the various pieces and lots for sale, but it's fun. A couple of things...when the auctioneer says "now $25.00", it doesn't mean he *has* it. He's asking for it. And watch out for shills.
Frank Turley - Sunday, 09/23/01 19:06:03 GMT

Auctions:: I could write a book about the auctions I've been to. Sometimes it helps if you find a friend that "knows the ropes". I've bid at many auctions for others. But there was a time when I had auction fever as bad as it can get. See the story about "My First Anvil".

Set how much you are willing to pay, then stick to it. If there are more than three other people bidding you do not want to get into a bidding war unless you have very deep pockets. Its easy to pay NEW prices for old junk that way. Sometimes you can tell the other guy is going to buy the item no matter what the price. Let him have it. KNOW what things are worth before you bid. I've often bid more than market price for something becuase it was there NOW.

The other best place to look for anvils is at blacksmith's meets. See the ABANA-Chapter page for the closest group.
- guru - Sunday, 09/23/01 20:46:31 GMT

1st anvil: Thats what that refresh button was for! Yeah I was just trying new stuff out and bam! I had new ideas! speaking of BAM! maybe we should get Emeril to doing a show 'cooking on the forge' or something. 'Sauteeing with S5'? How to use the essence to make your welds stronger and more succulent.

shucks I could write a whole complete sentence about my auction experience!

"I donebeen to one and bought me an Ain vil." :)

The one that I bought (only one so far) is a good one that I may have blown my chance if a couple of members of the Saltfork assoc. hadn't been there to guide a little. I still fell into that wonderful malady of auction fever which in my case was akin to vertigo.

The moral Big Al is what Guru and Frank have said. There are a lot of wonderful people that will assist you, but it is your money and you will need to determine buy or not. Bruce Wallace sells some that might fit your pocket book but watch freight charges they will kill the best of anvil deals. Good Luck.
Mills - Sunday, 09/23/01 21:39:36 GMT

If B'Laster hasn't moved it in two days, that sucker wasn't stuck, it was WELDED. I've never seen ANYTHING take that long.
Paw Paw Wilson - Sunday, 09/23/01 22:08:11 GMT

auctions & B'laster: Watch out, as well as for shills, for the dread feeding frenzy syndrome, where you get sucked into shelling out mucho dinero in the heat of the moment. Ones I've been to weren't worth the gas money except for fun looking and the scenery on the trip. Rust: I've had to soak stuff for not just weeks but months! In my secret brew of B'laster, Knockerloose, Liquid Wrench, WD40, a dab of Naval jelly and a wee soupcon of hydrochloric. But it's worked-- with some help from the rosebud sometimes-- and been well worth it.
Cracked Anvil - Monday, 09/24/01 00:14:03 GMT

One point you made there is well worth repeating. "and been well worth it."

Used equipment that is in rough shape can usually be had for a fraction of it's new cost or even a fraction of it's used value.

With the application of some sweat equity, we gain in two ways, we get working equipment for much less than normal, and the satisfaction of getting an "old venerable" working again is priceless.
Paw Paw Wilson - Monday, 09/24/01 01:14:56 GMT

Threshing Bee / Steam Engine Show: If you happen to be in the centeral Oklahoma area the weekend of September 28-30, you might like to take in the Annual Old Time Threshing Bee & Steam Engine Show at the Major County Historical Society Grounds. Members of the Saltfork Craftsmen ABA will have the blacksmith shop there open all weekend. The site is located on Highway 8 a few miles East of Fairview, Oklahoma. Bring your foge & tools or use ours; tailgate items are welcome. More info. at 800 - 447 - 2698.

Jim Carothers - Monday, 09/24/01 01:17:47 GMT

big al, One other thought about anvil acquisition. A "Turley Grad" some years ago put an ad in the Chicago newspaper, "Wanted, Blacksmithing Tools". In one day, he had acquired a 200# Hey-Bud for a reasonable price.
- Frank Turley - Monday, 09/24/01 02:39:53 GMT

small forges: I bought 2 broken down forges at the SOFA meet this weekend. One round one had a rack & pinion type drive that ran the flywheel. Anyone have any info on this type of drive? It used the wooden handle to pull up the rack & the pinion was attached to the flywheel drive.
- Mike S - Tuesday, 09/25/01 04:36:09 GMT

Sounds like one of the Sears Roebuck "Farm Forges". If you can take some pictures, scan and email them, I'll see if I can find a more complete answer.
Paw Paw Wilson - Tuesday, 09/25/01 04:52:56 GMT

sweat equity: Like so many of us, I'm a sucker for an old broken tool if it is cheap enough...and my shop runs ( staggers?) on them mostly.
But the reality is that my "sweat equity" probably rings in at less than minimum wage.
Whats even worse is that I'll do it again tomorrow.
- Pete F - Tuesday, 09/25/01 08:20:14 GMT

You ain't alone! (wry grin)
Paw+Paw+Wilson - Tuesday, 09/25/01 14:26:13 GMT

Starter Anvil: What Paw Paw said! I recently picked up an anvil that had the heel broken off at the hardy; but the face was near mint---never seen one where the horn and face looks untouched an the other end was broken off...anyway it was a name brand anvil, over 100# and ran me $40 I have it out under the spreading locust tree so I have a complete set-up outside (and yes it's chained).

I will probably weld a sq tube on to hold a hardy, till then I use it in a $20 post vise bolted to the $5 welding table and the bolts welded over.

Get started as cheaply as you can and start saving away a little cash so when the good deals appear you can jump on them!

BTW I sold the postvise at Quad-State to a fellow who had nothing---just getting started and I even dropped the price to $20. The $40 one didn't sell; I'll make a bracket and spring for it at our Oct hammerin---ifn I'm not busy with Patricks new hammer...

Thomas Powers - Tuesday, 09/25/01 15:57:30 GMT

small forge: Mike,
ranch forge... AKA belt drive blower. What is to know? The one I have used t work fine. Unfortunatly the cast iron pan seems to be suffering from metal fatique. It keeps cracking. After two 'band-aides' I decided to retire it.
The lever moves the quarter arc gear back and forth, which teurns the small toothed gear, which turns the pawl-clutch, which turns the flywheel which turns the belt which turns the blower. The pawl-clutch is fairly simple. Has a hub with teeth on teh inside of teh outer wall. that unit is part of the flywheel. The small gear is attached to a plate with 2 or 3 pins that the pawls are on. The pawls will engage in only one direction so the flywheel is powered on one stroke anbd as teh lever goes in the opposite direction the pawls will not engage(just like a rachet wrench).
For what it is worth.... these forges seem to work OK, but you have to work the lever a lot more than a bellows or a hand crank blower.... I have thought of using this forge with my electric Buffalo blower.... but right now I have one gasser and one LARGE coal forge, so this one will stay retired for now. Anyway it was my first forge , and was a gift from my wife to boot..... (smile)
Ralph - Tuesday, 09/25/01 16:40:55 GMT

Forges: Mike, we have some pics of that type forge on our 21st Century page.
- guru - Tuesday, 09/25/01 17:03:01 GMT

KNOCKSVILLE, TN: I will be joining Paw-Paw at the Museum of Appalachia fair next month (probably embarrasing myself). I need a local ISP so we can keep in touch. We need a recommendation from any of you folks from the Knocksville area. We will be staying in town and need a local dialup there.
- guru - Tuesday, 09/25/01 17:25:13 GMT

sweat equity: look at it as an investment that blossoms down the years, perennially yielding dividends far beyond the momentary cost in time: because you are buying back an old tool that, chances are, is vastly superior to what's being sold today. I can cite example after example in my shop: a monkey wrench for just one instance, 105 years old, still tip-top. Ditto a pipe wrench, pipe-threading tools, my 90-year-old trip hammer, etc. How much of the crappy hardware being dumped on the market-- and intended to be dumped on us!-- today will be here in 2102? (Of course, the way things could go these days, ain't nothin' gonna be here then, maybe.)
Cracked Anvil - Tuesday, 09/25/01 18:03:15 GMT

Don't knock Knocksville.
Frank Turley - Tuesday, 09/25/01 19:11:56 GMT

Auctions:: I was at an auction one time and sorta dozed off and when I jerked awake the auctioneer said sold and I had bought another vice. Right now I'm using it as a towel holder.
I've got five of them set up in one corner of my shop and refer to them as the vice squad. My wonderful wife thinks I have enough, she's probably right. "Enough" coming from her sweet lips is better than "too many". Still, I'd like to have one more, one that closed by foot so that you could hold the things you were clamping with two hands. Any ideas out there? I'd want to be able to beat on whatever I had in the vice so a farriers hot shoe holder is not strong enough.
- Lsundstrom - Tuesday, 09/25/01 19:34:25 GMT

Treadle Hammer springs: I am in need of some treadle hammer luck locally...where can I get some?

Don Eakin
Don - Wednesday, 09/26/01 00:02:14 GMT

Treadle Hammer springs: I am in need of some treadle hammer luck locally...where can I get some?

Don Eakin
Don - Wednesday, 09/26/01 00:06:26 GMT

Send me an email address, and I'll send you a picture of one.
Paw+Paw+Wilson - Wednesday, 09/26/01 00:58:31 GMT

Treadle springs, post vise: Don, garage door extension springs work. I get used and discontinued new ones from local garage door installers all the time. Might want to stick with new ones for a treadle.

Larry . I built a heavy duty foot locking post vise. Can take 8 pound sledge hits longer than you can dish them out. Still has a screw to do the initial clamping, but the foot action ups the clamp force to 7000 pounds plus. The foot action only moves the jaws about 1/4", but by changing the geometry, you could increase the jaw movement and lower the clamping force. Pic of it on the "other" site. There is also a pic of an old one that wouldn't clamp very tight, in the Anvilfire news. I think #5?

Paw Paw, did you get your rachet and pawl one made?
Tony - Wednesday, 09/26/01 12:05:48 GMT

Nope, haven't had time. Is on this winter's "to do" list.
Paw+Paw+Wilson - Wednesday, 09/26/01 14:10:57 GMT

That there vise you mentioned what's on the other "site" which is where I don't know, is just the opposite of what I was wanting to do. The problem I have is putting something in the vise that really takes two hands to hold onto and place exactly where you want it and snug it up with a foot control. At that point your hands become free to torque down the vise. What would be nice of course would be a hydrolically controlled vice capable of imprinting its jaw pattern in cold steel.
  Lsundstrom - Wednesday, 09/26/01 16:13:55 GMT

Larry's hip swivel: Larry, there are gobs of ways to do this, but you could have a vise that is held open with a spring and a latch that trips the spring and closes the jaws hard enough that you can take your hands off and tighten the screw. That would require a one way screw nut maybe, but it can be done. There was a pedal and link arrangement drawn up in Blacksmiths Journal a while back too. But I donít think the vise was heavy duty enough for my use/abuse. It could be scaled up, however. A foot pedal and a cam would also work. The problem with most ideas I have seen or come up with is that they offer a limited range of jaw opening or donít have much clamping force. Thatís why mine still has a screw for coarse adjustment. I have 8 inch jaw opening.

Heck , you could even set it up that you bump the vise jaws closed with your hip and a spring holds the stock until you clamp the liviní daylights out of it.

Larryís Hip Swivel Vise Company. (and Elvis impersonations) I can see it all pink, errr, make that red, neon!...... Big grin!

If your stock is always going to be within an eighth inch of the same thickness, the foot pedal on mine would be enough for you to take your hands off.

If you did not see it and want to, e-mail me. Take out the 2 rís from the address I list.

An 8" bore air cylinder, running on 100 psi air, 8 inches down on a 43 inch long leg would give a clamping force of 4000 pounds at the jaws if the pivot for both legs is at the floor. A 3.5" bore hydraulic cylinder running on 2500 psi oil in the same position would give about 20,000 pounds clamping force at the jaws. But youíre gonna need some hefty legs on the vise to take the bending load from the cylinder. 1.5" by 2.5" leg stock, like on my vise, would not be enough. Having both legs go all the way to the floor lets you really wail on both jaws with the sledge.

Or you could get yerself one of those fancy dancy hydraulic presses........

Send pics when you get her done! Good machinery is always her, not he. Ennso? Why is that? The her, not he thing?

Ennso is a regionalism for ďisnít that rightĒ

Itís funny how the existing, typical leg or post vise design has weathered father time. There must be something OK about it. I just wanted something that clamped better. And I couldnít buy something as easy to make as a leg vise. Grin. Having access to a machine shop is a double edged sword.
Tony - Wednesday, 09/26/01 20:12:21 GMT

Auto Vise: Larry, Industry uses small air cylinders for quick action vises. If you need a lot of force actuate a wedge with the cylinder OR use a long lever.

The advantage of using air is that it is fairly easy to have more than one clamp close at the same time. AND if you don't need quick retraction you can use a simple three way valve to provide air and exhaust it.

Besides, I know you have air in your shop!

- guru - Wednesday, 09/26/01 21:21:17 GMT

TONY! : I have gone to all the trouble to write encryption and decryption routines for our forum's email and you are still messing with "nospam"??????

Our system prevents spam harvesters from getting your address. If a spammer pays someone to do it manualy then that person will figure out the extra characters or remove the "nospam".

I had to clean up a couple thousand addresses in an email list and all I had to do is search for the word "spam" and correct each listing that had it. Took about 15 minutes and just a word processor.

I also wrote simple programs that test for correct email address configuration AND multiple letter uses. Anytime tripple letters are in an address it was flaged to be looked at. It is not that hard to clean up.

Our encryption routine is NOT a secure system but it stops automatic harvester systems dead in their tracks. First there is no "mailto:" link. There is a Javascript call. Your email address is reformated, encrypted, then converted to a string of numbers three or four times longer than the original.

A spammer may certainly put a (custom) decryption routine in his harvester especialy for anvilfire BUT I don't think it will be worth their time as this is a custom system that works ONLY on anvilfire. And to keep them on their toes we have a plan to change the encryption routine from time to time.

Its not perfect but we have made it difficult enough to take ALL the financial incentive out of the process of collecting addresses here. AND we are the only one that does it.
- guru - Wednesday, 09/26/01 22:04:01 GMT

telekinetic vise: Here at the Cracked Anvil Center for Analysis, we are working up final details on a telepathically-controlled leg vise, machinist's vise, drill press (criss-cross and angle) vise, bar and C-clamp kit. We are negotiating even now with Uri Geller to put his autograph on every tool. Hope to have it on the market in time for Christmas. In the meantime, staff members here adjust stuff in the vise with both hands and then snug it up with... their knees. When Chastity Dangerfield, our research coordinator, is doing the adjusting, wowee, the shop does a standing ovation.
Cracked Anvil - Thursday, 09/27/01 00:17:26 GMT

Chuckle! I want to meet Chastity and see if I can change her name! (grin)
Paw Paw Wilson - Thursday, 09/27/01 05:51:10 GMT

this ain't no dating service: And, better yet, you'll need a note from home to even get through the switchboard.
Cracked Anvil - Thursday, 09/27/01 14:01:50 GMT

Opps! Better forget that idea then, Momma would NEVER approve! (grin)
Paw Paw Wilson - Thursday, 09/27/01 15:08:53 GMT

JOCK!: Geez, don't give yourself apoplexy or some such ailment. grin. I meant not to insult your efforts. No, not "nospam". Just a couple or so random extra letters. I put myself in the spammers head a while ago and realized nospam was a waste. Now that you've explained the encription better, I guess I'll trust ya. grin.

I know not of programming. I know of not wanting to be spammed. Telemarketers don't fare well at our house. Spammers I can't even give my piece of mind too. Best I've found with the telemarketers, after I get the info and ask them to take us off the list, is to ask them nicely for their home address. The ones not smart enough to hang up, ask why. I tell them I want to send them $20 because if they are so hard up for money that they stoop so low as to invade my privacy, they must really be hard up and I want to help.

Embarassment, not violence.....

Thank goodness we're getting a state no call list.

Cracked, I'm told I have big strength of will, (maybe not in those exact terms), but put me on the list for the CACAKinetovise. Cause I've not been able to get that handle to budge by brainpower alone. Are you gonna throw in a free, bonus, Bass-O-Matic? Mines worn out. I tried to get a Sturgeon through it last winter.
Tony - Thursday, 09/27/01 15:15:02 GMT

I'm not as polite as you are. I usually tell them to go to a nice quiet corner and perform an act of self intercourse.
Paw Paw Wilson - Thursday, 09/27/01 15:48:33 GMT

Telemarketers: Most of the time I just interupt their spiel with ONE word, "NO" and bruskly hang up. Total length of call 3 seconds. If the same place calls back I interupt with "STOP". Then when I have their attention I forcefully ask to be removed from their call list.

I used to be rude and tell those trying to change my phone service to "get an honest job". But that was at the height of the telephone slamming business and they WERE theives.

Now days I get very few telemarketers calling. I suspect they are all SPAMMERS now.
- guru - Thursday, 09/27/01 22:46:16 GMT

wireless: Cordless phones, TV & VCR remotes, wireless internet-- why must blacksmiths in the 21st Century still do battle with the octopus of extension cords, welder leads, etc. allatime underfoot? That's what we asked ourselves here at Cracked Anvil Center for Anlysis, and when the rest of the world is fancy free, already? Yup, you guessed it, we assigned our Chief of Research, the redoubtable Ms. Yummi deLisch, to look into it, and coming up, she assures us, and in time for Christmas, we hope: the CACA Teslapower Rig. Just snap the custom-fitted imported plastic receiver into your ear, either one, and the radiated power-- 220 or 110!-- will be conducted down your arms to the tool of your choice. Just stay within 100 yards of the transmitter and-- THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT, PAY ATTENTION!-- try realllllly hard to avoid puddles and sweating.
Cracked Anvil - Friday, 09/28/01 04:08:59 GMT

old forge: Anyone know where I can find some info on an old round tabled forge that has on the blower (it's a pull handle type of forge) "C. Hammelmann's" and "pat'd. April 8, 1886? It was made in Buffalo NY. It uses a rack & pinion set up to drive the flywheel.
Mike S - Friday, 09/28/01 04:17:03 GMT


Sounds like it was made for a hardware or farm supply store by Buffalo Forge company. Private label type deal. If you can send a picture to either the guru or myself, we'll try to identify it for you.
Paw Paw Wilson - Friday, 09/28/01 18:33:09 GMT

telemarketers: Once had an Audi that had reached the sell-it-before-i-had-to-fix-it stage.But I felt kinda bad about selling it like that....untill a guy who owns a telemarketer outfit bought it.
Cracked,put me on the CACA phone up list
- Pete F - Saturday, 09/29/01 07:42:39 GMT

Knockin' on Knoxville: Spell it right or they'll think you must be a yankee! When I still lived there I had ISP through the University, but that's no help to you... Most folks there that I know use AT&T, but they cuss at it constantly. OTOH the Museum of Appalachia is also near Oak Ridge, which has some other set of ISP providers. It's bad enough to mis-spell Knoxville (the hipper locals call it "KnoxVegas"), but don't you dare mispronounce "Appalachia" or John Rice will kick you out! Hint: apple-latch-uh. Under no circumstances say apple-layshia or you will be smoked out as a damyankee most likely from Ohio or somesuch deity-deprived location, and thus made the target of directed flatulence. By people who eat large amounts of beans. And drink cheap beer. You've been warned. (grin!)
Alan-L - Saturday, 09/29/01 16:22:41 GMT

But we'll be calling the ISP from the motel in Knoxville.
Paw Paw Wilson - Saturday, 09/29/01 18:35:09 GMT

Wanted: trip hammer: Would like to purchase a little giant power hammer 50# preferable
Does anybody know where I can purchase one?
Michael Brewer - Saturday, 09/29/01 19:10:39 GMT

Trip hammer follow-up: A fella here had a little giant 25# but has been outside rusting, ect for 25-30 years. He wanted a $1000.00 for it and looked to me like a job to re-furbish it. So is this worth looking at or am I asking for more trouble than most of us want to get into? Thanks for all reply's
Michael Brewer - Saturday, 09/29/01 19:23:06 GMT

ISPs: I'll try to find you some info, but since I haven't lived there for three years, it may be a bit outdated.
Alan-L - Saturday, 09/29/01 20:29:50 GMT

Outdoors 25 years: Michael, If that is in Death Valley of some other place in the Southwest that considers 1/4 inch of rain in a year a flood then it might be worth that. Anywhere else in the US it is probably worth its value in iron scrap unless it was heavily greased before parking outdoors. Not to say that it doen't have some value but the machine DID have numerous precision bearing, clutch and guide surfaces that are now in need of serious work or replacement. Most likely all will need building up and remachining. Yes, it is more than most of us would want to take on. But you have to examine it closely to be sure. You also have to remember that it may have been an old worn out machine when it was parked. 25# LG's are the most abused machines as a group that I have ever seen.

Don't get stuck on LG's. Bradley and Fairbanks made much better machines.
- guru - Saturday, 09/29/01 20:49:09 GMT

25# Little Giant: Freight aside, a grand will come close to getting you one in working condition, ready to rock'n roll the minute you set it up in your shop. Refurbishing that old beauty is going to take you hours and hours and hours that you could be forging.
cracked anvil - Sunday, 09/30/01 00:18:58 GMT

Whoopee: I just snagged a commercial sewing machine that was on its out the door. The table is trash but the motor is smooth and oh so very quiet. It has a clutch that engages the pulley drive and it of course slips some to smoothly engage. About 3/4 to 1 HP 110v by looks. I believe I have the heart of a nice little JYH. I have to dig in my stash at work now for some pipe or tubing and get busy..maybe by spring.

I believe there was a conversation about making a mini hammer of a sewing machine before, will wonders never cease. (big ol cheesy grin)
Mills - Sunday, 09/30/01 02:55:59 GMT

Large Post Vise: Howdy!I have about a 250lb.8"post vise for sale in nice condition.$650.I am in AZ.(520)442-3290
- Barry Denton - Sunday, 09/30/01 05:04:17 GMT

If I hadn't scrounged a JYH at the NCABANA do, I'd hate you! (grin)
Paw Paw Wilson - Sunday, 09/30/01 14:13:58 GMT

Well I am certainly pleased that you have aquired yon pretty thing. Now perchance you will have the latest chapter posted with no delay due to your displeasure with me.
And all the Grunts said: HUA!
(snort chuckle grin and snort)
Mills - Monday, 10/01/01 00:59:38 GMT

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