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August 2003 Archive

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J. Dempsey  <webmaster> Rev. 7/98, 3/99, 5/2k, 6/2k, Friday, 04/06/01 16:43:25 GMT

trenton anvils: Could one of you with an anvil book look up a number for me? I bought a small trenton, 101lbs, & the number is A20356. I'd kinda like to know an age on it if possible. Thanks,
- Mike S. - Thursday, 07/31/03 23:16:05 EDT


The A isn't part of the Serial number. It was manufactured in 1901.
Paw Paw - Friday, 08/01/03 00:09:02 EDT

thanks for flux: howdy gents. thankyou for the answer to my flux query. Not to cause flashback but some of you may rember my asking about coal. I Just got an email from mr Tim keeney in hico,wv. he sells rather good quality coal for $.20 a pound. Ships to you in a 5 gallon bucket( 40 ilbs) by ups. Total cost for me was 16.58 for 40 ILBS. I should be recieveing it monday or tuesday. I will tear into it and let you know what I think about it. once again thank you Wayne for putting us in touch!
Joshua - Friday, 08/01/03 08:36:06 EDT

ppw how late do you work on this stuff?: Just noticed the time on the last notice posted from ppw. I for one definately want to say thank you for the time and effort it takes to put up with our stuff.
Joshua - Friday, 08/01/03 08:39:47 EDT

Glad to be of help with the coal. We like a little smaller lumpa than some of them in the mix but it wasn't hard to makem smaller with a hammer. We prefer lumps about the size of the end of your thumb. It was the best burning coal we have ever had. Good luck
- Wayne Parris - Friday, 08/01/03 09:21:41 EDT

hunting for temper: well here we go again. last night we discovered that we don't know jack about tempering! can anyone suggest anything to help as far as how-to or is it something one needs to see done in order to truly have it sink in? I that is the case are there any willing teacher in the new river vally area? as far as I know the closest abana meet is in richmond 4 hours away. What does it really take to start one in my area?
Joshua - Friday, 08/01/03 09:22:37 EDT

Help for Josh:
Joshua, have you checked here for help?

The Appalachian Blacksmiths Association A regional blacksmithing organization
with members in West Virginia, Maryland, Ohio, Pennsylvania, Virginia and ...

They have lots of info and I am sure they could help you get intouch with other smiths that are near you.
BTW, this is the place I found the link for the coal.

You do realize that hardening and temper are two different things though we tend to do them at the same time.

Hardening makes the steel hard but brittle
Tempering trades off hardness for flexability

Good luck with your quest for furthering your skills

- Wayne Parris - Friday, 08/01/03 09:37:16 EDT

Firebrick :
Firebricks don't reflect heat....

Not a lot, that is true. However, what hot firebrick DO do is RADIATE heat. Every hot surface radiates heat energy to a colder surface. Red or orange hot firebrick CAN and usually DO radiate MUCH heat back to the work. Same as how much of the sun's energy reaches us here on the rock we inhabit. In the case of a flat forge pan, the firebrick insulate mostly. But if you make a box of firebrick, and get the firebrick glowing, the work in the box will heat MUCH faster.

Kaowool is a much better insulator than firebrick and ITC 100 definitely is a better radiating surface than common firebrick.

Most refractory selections are made first on what will hold up to the physical damage and chemical erosion in the application and then how much energy/time will be saved.

VIC, don't tell me you put the JB welded weedwhacker in the dishwasher!? grin!
- Tony - Friday, 08/01/03 09:44:49 EDT

Ralph's new welder:
Forget shipping. It weighs as much as my anvil. I'll just swing it by your place when it's up and running.:) All the electics LOOK ok. Its just that one-piece cast carb that's making me nuts. I got all the pins out and choke moving. I figure the ports are plugged with either dried gas or bits of rubber from the rotted seals. Its soaking in NAPA parts cleaner now. If that doesn't work I'll throw it in the forge and make a napkin ring outta it.
Gronk - Friday, 08/01/03 10:55:24 EDT

Various tidbits: Gronk:

The best stuff I know of for cleaning a crudded-up carb was a product called Tyme, sold at auto parts stores. May not be available anymore due to new regs. The rattle-can stuff sold lbny AutoZone etc, works well if you put the whold carb in a glass jar with a tight fitting lid. Hose it with a couple of cans of the stuff, spraying it into every nook, cranny and orifice, land the plop the thing in the jar and screw the lid down tight. Let it sit over night and then hose it again. I've freed up carbs on chainsaws that hadn't been used for ten years this way.


I have yet to look at the weed whacker to see what the current problem is. I just went out and bought Irene a new Shindaiwa which works fine. One of these days I'll throw a short-block on the Stihl and make it new. The package arrived today. Thanks! Guess what's on the menu tonight? (grin) Large batch of poker chips being processed this weekend, should ship out shortly thereafter.


My expensive DSL internet has been mostly unworkable lately, so my contact is very sporadic. I discovered yesterday that if I take the phone off the hook until it starts to whimper, then the DSL starts to work. Too weird, but that's life in the third world, I guess. I'm working on the plans for the heat treating furnace/burnout kiln. I might get them finished next week and send them to Jock, with any luck.
vicopper - Friday, 08/01/03 15:33:58 EDT

vicopper: Ever heard of the bigger hammer solution?
Joshua - Friday, 08/01/03 16:50:36 EDT

Fly Wheel Presses: Looking at the Flywheels from Kayne and Son, I think that the size of the bar that is pressed down is similar to that in an Arbour press. Can an Arbour be used to so similar things? What are the practical differences?
Lorne G - Friday, 08/01/03 20:32:38 EDT


Speed is the biggest difference. And the momentum of the flywheel adds a LOT of force that you have to supply to the arbor press. The flywheel acts as a force multiplyer because of the inertia involved.

That's an off the cuff answer, the guru could explain it better than I can, and will correct me if I got too far off.
Paw Paw - Friday, 08/01/03 23:04:36 EDT

carb: About two years ago I had the internal fuel line in a 69 international pickup truck fuel tank completely varnish shut. The only way I could find to open it back up was to take it off turn it up pour acetone in the line and hook up the air compressor. After about 2 days it was clean so I would think that soaking it in acetone would work followed by a through cleaning with water then drying would work.
Make sure that it has all the rubber parts off you want to keep it damages some types of rubber. However acetone is harmful to inhale and absorbs through the skin so you need chemical resistant gloves and plenty of air. O almost forgot it is more flammable than gasolene and evaporates faster as well.
888 - Friday, 08/01/03 23:36:44 EDT

Tempering: Ah. . . Have your read our heat treating FAQ? There is also a temper color chart on the FAQ's page and linked to several articles.
- guru - Friday, 08/01/03 23:58:50 EDT

Flypress: Paw-paw is right on the flypress. Yes you can do a lot of what you see done with a flypress with an arbor press but an arbor press about twice as big as one of those little fly presses only does about 1/4 of the work.

The other thing about these flypresses is that they have a fast screw for forging. You can repetively cycle the flypress much faster than an arbor press. In one heat you can do several operations where in the arbor press you will lose much of the heat due to slow movement.

More force and more speed in a smaller machine. That is what flypresses are about.

If you HAVE an arbor press try it. But I would not go out an buy one to try forging with. I have a big 5-6 ton arbor press (about 500 pounds and 4 foot tall) that I want to try out on some hot iron. However, I have USED arbor presses and know that they are not nearly as fast, smooth or convienient as the little flypresses.
Flypress Preview Demo
- guru - Saturday, 08/02/03 00:13:00 EDT

Thanks for the tips gang. I knew there had to be something faster than soaking in gas. I'm envisioning a boat-load of tooling and such. Not only that, but its fast becoming a quest. Moron against machine! Tune in next week for the thrilling conclusion!
Gronk - Saturday, 08/02/03 09:49:23 EDT

Vic in the 3rd world: That's alright, Rich. I can't get DSL, and I'm only an hour or so out of Chicago!
It's the farmland that time forgot...
Two Swords - Saturday, 08/02/03 13:22:28 EDT

Third World Blues:
The fascinating/frustrating thing about living down here in Paradise is that so much is available, but always just a bit out-of-whack. I can have DSL, but there aren't any service people who know how to keep it operating. I can have cable TV, but the programming choices are abyssmal. The government bigwigs have 2+GHz laptop computers, but no one knows how to operate any of the software. Or understands simple logic. My brother and I wrote a program for the Police Department to use for report writing. It is a sophisticated relational database with the world's simplest user interface. We gave it to the Department, FREE, six years ago. As of today, ALL the Department's records (with the sole exception of my section) are still being done with ballpoint data entry and stored in cardboard boxes. If you need to retrieve a record, you're in deep doo-doo. But they can process a vacation request in record time...go figure.
vicopper - Saturday, 08/02/03 19:15:14 EDT

Fly Presses: Thanks, Guru. The demo was very informative. Do the Fly Presses come ready to accept tooling, or do you have to make adjustments? I bought a small 1 ton arbour press on sale a while back, but I haven't sat down and figured out how to alter it to accept tooling. I'd rather not have to bother.
Lorne G - Sunday, 08/03/03 00:19:20 EDT

de Blues: yeah I s'pose that'd give me the blues too. Sometimes, though, it's good to have someone around to take care of that high-priority stuff, like vacations. And as for gummint bigwigs, well, isn't it enough that they HAVE the machines? I mean, no one expects them to perform actual work on them, right? So why would they need to understand the software at all, at all?
Here's one for all the little "Ambers" and "Treys" out there who want their answers in the next 5 minutes or not at all:
Two Swords - Sunday, 08/03/03 02:48:11 EDT

Work for a Blacksmith: Yes, Amber, there will always be work for a blacksmtih. Regretably, most of it seems to involve explaining what the heck a blacksmith does!
Quenchcrack - Sunday, 08/03/03 12:11:34 EDT

Press Tooling:
Lorne, Kayne's flypresses are ready to accept tooling as-is. The rams have a hole for a tool shank and a screw to lock them in place (3/4" and 1" see specs on Kaynes page). The base has T slots to hold the dies down but you will need to make your own T-bolts or purchase T-nuts (bolts/studs are better and safer). Making T-bolts is no big deal, just weld an oversize square head on a bolt or piece of threaded rod to fit the T-slot.

Your arbor press is designed to PUSH and has no tooling hole (or at least none that I have seen did). You would either need to make a clamp on holder or remove the ram and drill and tap for a shank holder.

Russel O'Dell makes his tooling shanks from 3/4" bolts. He just saws off the threaded portion of about a 2" bolt and welds the tooling to the head. You would use 1" bolts for the bigger press. Dead simple. And although not a normal daily operation it only took a few seconds to change from one tool set to another.

You CAN get fancier and machine shanks on your own tooling if you want (all that is needed is a small lathe). OR if you poke around you will find that many standard punch and die sets have 3/4" and 1" shanks.

I've got photos of about a dozen of Russel O'Dell's tooling setups that we are going to put in an article this coming week. The tooling was all built from scraps of steel and all worked quite well. I will also add commentary on press tooling and what is available commercialy.
Kayne Flypress specs
- guru - Sunday, 08/03/03 13:46:33 EDT

1" Bolts: *blink blink* Guru, them's some honkin' big bolts. I've been looking for a 1 1/2"-12 bolt of about 10-18" length myself, and given your post, you seem to know where they could be found... any suggestions, aside from MSC Industrial or McMaster-Carr?
T. Gold - Sunday, 08/03/03 19:13:08 EDT

test, test: Mike check.
- guru - Sunday, 08/03/03 23:20:04 EDT

BOLTS: 1 inch bolts are pretty common in our shop. Used to use a lot of inch and a half and some two inch. We are lucky in that we have a hardware supplier in town that carries everything from a #2 to a 2" in a variety of lengths and grades.

But when you get to needeing LONG large bolts then they become special order. The few American bolt making shops left specialize in custom orders. They have big upsetters for heading and special threading machines. The last special order bolts I had made were 1-3/4 - 8 dog point set screws 6" long. They were hardened steel and the dog points had special tapered sides to my spec. Seems they were around $40 to $50 each and we needed a couple dozen.
- guru - Sunday, 08/03/03 23:28:57 EDT

Fly Presses: Thanks again for the info Guru. I saw a picture of a fly press in Peter Parkinson's book. What I didn't realize is that the flypress in the picture has an elaborate bending jig fitted to it. I now see how simple and easy they are.
Lorne G - Monday, 08/04/03 01:06:23 EDT


email to you about anvilfire foto's bounced. Send me a good address, please.
Paw Paw - Monday, 08/04/03 02:12:15 EDT

welder carb: did you price out a new one? sometimes the cheeply made parts are well cheep... might be a bit easier than messing with it.
MP - Monday, 08/04/03 16:47:15 EDT

Arbor Press: How much arbor press would you need to be useful? I know that's an open question "What do you want to do?". So what can a 1-ton do? How about a 3-ton?
MarcG - Monday, 08/04/03 17:07:40 EDT

Arbor press: I've got a 2 ton press that I use mostly for rivetting Kydex. Perhaps a little overkill, but never mind. Still trying to decide what other tooling I want on it - it'll do press fits well (eg bearing installation). I hadn't really considered it for forging use, as I hadn't thought it man enough for the job. Anything I can think of for the press, a smithing magician would probably suit me better. Now all I need to do is get around to building one...
Peter - Tuesday, 08/05/03 06:49:31 EDT

Yeah MP, I've considered just buying a replacement carb., but I'm not ready to throw in the towel just yet. Kinda like fishing with TNT... takes all the fun out of it. On the other hand, I do want this welder in working order. Ahhh a few more days I guess. Think I'll go out and have a look at it right now.
Gronk - Tuesday, 08/05/03 10:28:36 EDT

that all depends on what your fishing for. now for crocs that is just about fair game! at least makes things even.
- Joshua - Tuesday, 08/05/03 13:45:06 EDT

Is there a particular finish out there that someone could use for outdoor funiture and garden equipment, particularly a garden archway, that would keep it from rusting? Would I have to use rustolem type paint or is there stuff that would work better?
- Joshua - Tuesday, 08/05/03 15:34:39 EDT

Joshua : You want atleast a LITTLE of the tail left to eat! Although that makes more sense that what the Floridian swamp redneck said they used to do when they "didn't" poach for gater.

"They sink when they're killed, so you have to have one shoot it, then the other jumps on it's back as it starts to thrash so that you don't loose it when it dies." Ummmm. No. Thank you but No.
Monica - Tuesday, 08/05/03 17:02:46 EDT

Finishes: Joshua:

Here in the Virgin Islands rust is, as you might imagine, a real problem. The best finish that I've found for architectural ironwork is to sandblast it, prime with cold galvanizing (90% zinc) and then prime again with regular red oxide primer followed by two coats of Hammerite. The Hammerite is expensive, but once it has dried/cured for a couple of weeks it is harder'n 47 pairs of woodpecker lips. If I want black as a final color, I do the first coat with gray so I can see any missed spots in the final coat. I find that, even here, that finish will last for more than 7 years without any noticable deterioration. It might last much longer, 7 years is just the longest I've had any in service here. Still looks new.
vicopper - Tuesday, 08/05/03 17:58:54 EDT

power hammer: I am interested in Williams and White forging hammers. Does anyone have experience with them?
- Doug - Tuesday, 08/05/03 22:07:35 EDT

paint: I use the same finsh as Vic only I use a rustolem finsh coat not the stuff you cut with there thiner the stuff that comes in a silver can and cuts with actone. I have had good luck useing etching primmer over the zinc when it has set up for a bit, but with that stuff you have a short time to spray the finsh coat or you need to hit it with the red stuff then the top coat ... can be a pain
MP - Wednesday, 08/06/03 02:56:03 EDT

Williams and White hammers: DOUG; go to Google Search and type in "Williams and White forging hammers". Have fun, 3dogs
3dogs - Wednesday, 08/06/03 03:38:11 EDT

the Pub?: Am I doing something wrong or is the pub really not up and running yet?
Joshua - Wednesday, 08/06/03 15:37:24 EDT


Pub is still not up and running.
Paw Paw - Wednesday, 08/06/03 15:52:39 EDT

sandblasters: precisle what is involved in useing and ofcourse obtaining a sandblaster? How much could a cheapskate hope to obtain one for? And the ever important question of Where can I get one pops up in my mind?
Joshua - Wednesday, 08/06/03 15:54:14 EDT

spelling: should read precisely
Joshua - Wednesday, 08/06/03 15:55:56 EDT

Sandblasters: Joshua:

Sandblasting is something that I don't recommend for amateurs at home. The danger of silicosis is very, very real, and silicosis is a painful and lingering death. To prevent it, you need positive-pressure breathing apparatus and a full blasting suit. The p-p air supply will cost at least three hundred dollars (likely much more), and the blasting suit and gloves another couple hundred. Then there is the cost of the equipment. A small 100# hopper-type blaster will set you back a couple hundred and the compressor to run it will be on the order of fifteen hundred bucks ($1500.00) and up. Then you need a place to do the blasting, where the dust won't kill off your neighbors and annoy the EPA. A small building with filterred exhaust could probably be built for fifteen or twenty grand if you did most of the work yourself, I suppose.

Of course, if all you want to do is clean up small parts, then you could do it in a cabinet blaster. A small cabinet rig would cost a couple hundred dollars and could be run on a compressor that only cost around a thousand bucks. Still not that great a return on investment, if you ask me.

Sandblasting takes HUGE volumes of air. A small cabinet blaster luses 12 cu/ft. a minute very easily. That's a five horsepower, two-stage compressor. Large hopper-type sandblasting rigs for blasting fences, railings, cars, etc. take thirty to fifty cu. ft./min. A Sullair, Caterpillar or similar compressor, often diesel driven, is generally used. You can rent the whole rig for a hundred bucks a day some places.

The dinky little cheapo sandblasters that are sold by Harbor Freight and others usually aren't even close to adequate for a blacksmith and will wear out almost immediately. IF you have a big enough compressor to deliver the air needed.

Sandblasting is, without a doubt, one of the best ways there is to remove scale, rust and contaminants from steel. It produces a surface finish that holds paint exceptionally well. (Corresponndingly, that surface will rust in a couple of hours if it doesn't get painted right away.)
vicopper - Wednesday, 08/06/03 17:41:46 EDT

Sandblaster : Joshua, another alternative to a sand blaster is a tumbler that uses sand and a lubricant to polish parts in a bucket. The lubricant can be oil or water. They are easy to build and work well on scale and rust with less dust and muss. Here is a site that might get you started
NOTE: The link above is no longer "hot" because of the note recieved from the server owner:
Please remove the links to our site from your page shown below. These links are causing false alarms in our security monitor, filling the logs with unwanted referral entries, and are being diverted to an "unwanted incoming referral" page. We appreciate your cooperation in this matter.
Now. . I get thousands of these type links to anvilfire EVERY day. Yes, they screw up the logs but THAT is the nature of the Internet. Each to his own. . . - guru

Try this one Kreigh Homemade Lapidary Equipment
Habu - Wednesday, 08/06/03 19:56:07 EDT

Arbor Press for Forging:
I have a 5-6 ton arbor press. I have never put hot iron under it, but I guess I should. A 5 ton arbor press is a HUGE one. It is about 4 foot tall setting on the floor (without the handle) and weighs about 500 pounds.

I've used a similar press for bending and pressing and was not impressed with what 5 tons could do. That is why I built a 20 ton hydraulic press. . which I am looking at up grading to 50 tons but the price is over $350. . .

At 20 tons it will just barely punch 3" blanks out of 16ga plate but it won't do bigger (3-1/2" or 4") blanks.

My feeling about arbor presses is that they are about as slow as manual hydraulic. They do not automaticaly return to the up position, nor stay there and the ratchet is a little fussy. I had thought about adding a counter weight to the ram so that it would stay put OR be self raising.

YET ANOTHER project. . .

I spent the day cleaning up my old press tooling for a report on tooling for flypresses and taking photos. Coming SOON!

We are also doing calcs on the flypresses so that we can compare forces to other things.
- guru - Wednesday, 08/06/03 20:02:38 EDT

Slack Tub Skeeters: Do any of y'all know of something fairly non-toxic I can put in my slack tub to keep the mosquito wigglers out? I am worried about toxic steam for me, and also my cats seem to love that delicious scale flavored water. Any ideas?
- Layne - Wednesday, 08/06/03 22:24:52 EDT


Put a cup of clorox in the slack tub.
Paw Paw - Wednesday, 08/06/03 22:58:53 EDT

Guru - Thanks for the hydraulic press info. The latest flyer from my favourite tool store has some specials on what the call
- Lorne Gray - Thursday, 08/07/03 00:50:59 EDT

Presses: Sorry botched that last post. The store has "shop presses", which appear to be manual hydraulic. $90.00 Cdn for a 6 ton, and $900.00 for a 45 ton.

Can a hydraulic press forge in a similar manner to a flypress?
Lorne Gray - Thursday, 08/07/03 00:54:03 EDT

Lorne G.:

Not really, it moves too slow.
Paw Paw - Thursday, 08/07/03 01:22:45 EDT

Mossies: I tend to put a tiny amount of washing up liquid into standing water - it breaks the surface tension so they can't hold themselves on the surface... And they drown.

Peter - Thursday, 08/07/03 08:32:37 EDT

Hydraulic Mosquitos: There are two problems with the cheap hydraulic presses. One is as paw-paw mentioned, too slow. The iron will be rapidly cooling while you pump away. . . That is why the electric powered hydraulic presses need so much horse power (10 to 15). They must be fast AND powerful.

The other problem with the light duty "shop presses" is that they do not have enough steel in them. They are like a stretched rubber band under load. This makes them dangerous even for the designed use. When something slips of a fit gives way the stored energy in the streatched frame lets go and part fly. Presses with good heavy frames are a joy to use but the light framed ones are scary as hell. We had one in our shop that had "30 tons" stenciled on the frame and it had a 20 ton bottle jack. Without using the extended handle (just the first 12" length) the frame header bent about 1/2"! . . . At least when the frame bends the stored energy is released. . . .

MOSQUITOES: This is getting to be a more serious problem everywhere. In the last decade we have had at least two new varieties of these pests move into Virgina and much of the East Coast. West Nile virus is carried by one variety and who knows what else. In the "old" days shortly after they discovverd that malaria was carried by mosquitoes a huge anti-mosquito campainge was launched against the pests using DDT, oil and Paris Green (Arsenic powder). Today they still fog entire neighborhoods in some areas with newer "safer" pesticides but it is nothing like it was in the 1950's. Then they fogged EVERYWHERE. Mosquitoes were reduced tremondously in populated areas of the US. But now they are back with a vengence and I suspect that we are on the verge of a public health crisis. Malaria still exists and there HAVE been a few reported cases in the US (supposedly from abroad). But it wouldn't take much (like this unbelievably cool wet summer) to produce an all out problem.

I THOUGHT, I was not sure, most mosquitoes do not do well in salt water. I was wrong. Here is some info from

3. Change the water in birdbaths and wading pools at least once a week and stock ornamental pools with top feeding
predacious minnows. Known as mosquito fish, these minnows are about 1 - 1-1/2 inches in length and can be purchased or
native fish can be seined from streams and creeks locally. Ornamental pools may be treated with biorational larvicides
[Bacillus thuringiensis subsp. israelensis (Bti) or S-methoprene (IGR) containing products] under certain circumstances.
Commercial products "Mosquito Dunks" ( and "Mosquito Bits"
( containing Bti can be purchased at many hardware/garden stores for homeowner use.
Zodiac, a division of Wellmark International, has developed Pre-Strike Preventative Mosquito Control (PMC) product that
kills developing mosquitoes using insect growth regulator (IGR) technology. Like Mosquito Dunks, Zodiac's Pre-Strike can be found at many home/garden and pet specialty stores.

Recently another method of larval control has become available. The LarvaSonic is an acoustic larvicide system. Sound energy transmitted into water at the resonant frequency of the mosquito larvae air bladders instantly ruptures the internal tissue and causes death.

- guru - Thursday, 08/07/03 10:57:43 EDT

Skeeters: I use a cup or so of mouthwash. Seems to work. I wonder if that's what is attracting all the toads.
Gronk - Thursday, 08/07/03 10:58:34 EDT

Skeeter Control: How about a cover? That would also cut down on evaporation.
- MarcG - Thursday, 08/07/03 11:26:48 EDT

Cheapo Sandblaster?: On my things-to-try list is making a sandblaster using a leaf-blower. My thinking (which has proven to be wrong in the past) is that my 150 mph, 200+ cfm, blower can move a whole bunch of sand. The sand probably wouldn't move as fast as a real blaster, but would make it up in volume.

It's still in the early planning stages (read: I've got a leaf blower - that's it) but the thought was to build a cabinet (cardboard box to test) and use a furnace filter to let all that air exhale. Then just gravity-feed the sand down into the air supply.

So waddya think? Fun or what?
- MarcG - Thursday, 08/07/03 11:42:49 EDT

sandblaster: Okay well that is definately beyond my capabilities, so does any one actually provide sandblasting services? if so where could one find a local servicer?
Joshua - Thursday, 08/07/03 13:15:34 EDT


Look in the Yellow Pages under Sandblasting.
Paw Paw - Thursday, 08/07/03 15:56:49 EDT

sandblasters.: Marc,
I am thinking a leaf blower will not do it. Does not matter how much speed the blower moves the air, it will need to have the POWER to pick up and then move that heavy sand.
But then again I am possibly wrong, as I have not ever attempted to build a sandblaster.

Ralph - Thursday, 08/07/03 17:50:12 EDT

Sandblasting: Joshua:

If you can't find anyone listed under "Sandbalsting", try looking under "Monuments" or "Grave Markers." The folks who cut headstones for cemeteries have very nice sandblasting facilities usually, and are often willing to do small blasting jobs very reasonably. Many cemeteries have their own headstone shop, by the way.

Marc: Your leaf blower will probably move some sand, but it will be too little, too slow. That screeching racket your hear when a blaster nozzle is running is the sand moving at speeds approaching the speed of sound as they come through the nozzle venturi. Speeds on the order of 1000 fps or more. The force with which the sand hits the metal is more a factor of the velocity, since the mass is so low. High pressure/high volume is the only formula for success in blasting, I'm afraid.
vicopper - Thursday, 08/07/03 19:23:54 EDT

Power Hammers: If there are any smiths in or around the washington dc area, that would like to help me build a power hammer or find a place where I could get scrap I would greatly appreciate it.

Thanks Bob O

By the way has anyone checked out my pictures on the yahoo site yet, I would love to get some feed back. ;~)
Bob O - Thursday, 08/07/03 23:49:48 EDT

PawPaw, I guess it was the computer that I was using. I do miss sitting in my waterbed though. :~)
Bob O - Thursday, 08/07/03 23:51:17 EDT

pics: GRRREat pics nice looking knives too. Keep 'em comming!
sorry guys i'm kinda drain bead i guess. I just didn't think about that.

yes I meant the typo
Joshua - Friday, 08/08/03 09:03:38 EDT

gas: Thinking economically, How much burn time does a 20 # propane tank usually give? Can you actually weld with one or would I still need to keep the coal powered one up and running?
Joshua - Friday, 08/08/03 11:03:44 EDT


20 pound bottle lasts about 8 hours normal forging time, about 5 hours welding time.
Paw Paw - Friday, 08/08/03 11:32:29 EDT

gas: in the 21st cen. section they talk about freeze ups. What is this and what can I do about it. Do I just get a bigger tank? how big, and how much $$ are we talking to get one that size. I always thought that you couldn't weild with gas, how do you get it hot enough? it everything else the same ( fluxing wise) or does it take a different technique?
Joshua - Friday, 08/08/03 13:34:05 EDT

In order to get to welding heat, you just have to turn up the gas. In other words, burn more fuel. In a good reflective forge it's no problem. The rest of the job is the same, clean and flux.

Freeze ups occure when you draw more gas out of the bottle than the evaporative rate of the gas will supply. (I think that's correct). Setting the tank in a tub of water will help, and it makes a good place to chill whatever you are drinking. (grin)
Paw Paw - Friday, 08/08/03 14:46:03 EDT

gas: Joshua,
Propane bottle have liguid propane under pressure. When you open valve some of the propane flashes to gas. This rapid expansion will cause temp to drop. So if you are using gas at a high enough rate( aforge can do this) you will get some freezing of the propane. Getting a bigger bottle/tank will help. As will placing the one you now have in a container of water.
Most pattern-welded( AKA Damasus ) is made in gas forges. Usually if it is not getting hot enough it is due to too small a burner design or poor gas to air ration for the forge size. ALso you will need to adjust forge so that you have a more lean mix so that you will not get as much oxidation. Yes you use the same flux, tho you will need to understand that the flux( borax) is rather caustic and WILL eat thru your insulation/refractory including brick or castable types. So design the forge with this in mind and make sure the floor is easy to replace/repair
Ralph - Friday, 08/08/03 14:52:00 EDT

Propane: One thing... I think Ralph meant a *rich* (fuel-rich) mix to help prevent oxidation... at least, that's how it seems to work with mine.
T. Gold - Friday, 08/08/03 15:40:05 EDT

is this a joke?: check out
adam - Friday, 08/08/03 16:04:52 EDT

I suspect he meant to set the "Buy it Now" price at $500. But even that is too high with the heel broken the way it is. He doesn't say how much it weighs.
Paw Paw - Friday, 08/08/03 16:11:43 EDT

I take it back, he does say it's a 125 pound.
Paw Paw - Friday, 08/08/03 16:13:03 EDT

hmmm, we have a winner: T. Gold you win! You found the INTENTIONAL error I put in my previous note..... yeah that is the story I will be sticking with....(grin)
Ralph - Friday, 08/08/03 16:19:51 EDT

ebay anvil: It "appears to be in great shape" with only the heel broken off, the horn truncated and a bad divot all along one side of the face. I'd sure not like to have one he rated as "in poor shape"---and would not buy this one for over US$50 at most. (I bought an anvil with a perfect face and a good horn; but broken off at the hardy for $40)

Trenton's are usually characterized by a depression in the underside of the anvil with the pre 1910 ones looking like an hourglass and the post 1910 ones looking like a "capsule" with parallel sides and rounded ends.

There are *some* Trentons that did not have the base recess but they are not very common.

Trentons were made here in Columbus OH.

- Thomas Powers - Friday, 08/08/03 18:00:24 EDT

Quad State: I take it that we just register on site at Quad State? I got the info on who is doing what, but it didn't have any cost info or pre-registering info either.
Bob H - Friday, 08/08/03 18:53:00 EDT

welding with gas: If you get things tuned right, welding with gas is very easy. The environment is clean, stable and reproducible. But "right" aint easy - you need it hot enough and not all gassers can do this: You need it running slightly rich and many gassers wont get to welding heat except on a lean mix: finally you need good mixing so that there is no free oxygen available for the steel. I have found that a few pcs of crumbled firebrick on the floor improve mixing and also make a lee where the steel to be welded can shelter from the harsh oxidizing wind.

In the end welding with a gasser is a black art - just like coal
adam - Friday, 08/08/03 19:09:41 EDT

Quad State: Bob H:
The booklet I got from Quad State gives the rates as follows: Full Registration $45 in advance, $50 on site. College students and senior citizens $30.

One day only: $25 in advance, $30 on site.

Camping: $4.00 per night primitive, $10.00 per night water and electric.

You can get download registration forms at
- Larry - Friday, 08/08/03 19:46:42 EDT


I sent my dues in to Hans, should I do anything else?
Paw Paw - Friday, 08/08/03 19:48:18 EDT

Quad State: I checked the site and found the missing info. That page was torn out of my pamphlet. Next question: Does the $4 camping fee cover the site or is it for each person on the site?
Bob H - Friday, 08/08/03 22:04:44 EDT

Ummm....: Well... I am quite new to black smithing... I only had my first chance to start in the high school metal shop. Any weapons that I make are fairly crude, but I do try. I am 15 years of age, and I honestly dont know why I am typeing this... maby because I need some tips on Blacksmithing. I just have one question, do you people "pour" or hammer all your metal? I hammer.
- Joshua Martin - Saturday, 08/09/03 00:07:57 EDT

Joshua: Hey, Joshua, where are you located? I'm 16 y.o. and have my own forge. A VERY good book to get on bladesmithing is "the complete bladesmith" This book will give you a LOT of usefull information. You can get it at Do you have any equiptment? If you don't, go to the Guru and ask him questions. I'm sure he'll be a big help. :~)
Bob O.
PS: Check out the pictures of my forge, to get ideas for your own!
Bob O - Saturday, 08/09/03 01:01:12 EDT

The Pub is Back!:
Working on the Rogues gallery.
- guru - Saturday, 08/09/03 02:14:35 EDT

Forging vs. Casting:
Joshua, Blacksmiths FORGE (hammer) metal. However, many of us also work non-ferrous metals such as aluminium, brass, bronze, pewter and zinc. These are fairly easy metals to cast and it is often the best way to produce parts in those materials. But we also forge aluminium, brass, bronze and copper.

At a recent Armor-In (see our NEWS Vol 29), and armourer was recreating cast brass decorative elements of the famous Sutton-Hoo armor as well as decorative brass rivets for use on armor. The brass rivets had decorative heads in the shape of Fluer-des-lis, human sculls and such.

Besides forging and casting there are other metal working techniques used in the blacksmith shop. Raising, dishing and spinning are sheet metal techniques use to make everything from armor to tableware and candle sticks. Rasing and dishing are done with a hammer but is done cold and the metal is not displaced like it in in forging. So they are different than forging. Spinning is done on a lathe and used to shape round vessels in practicaly every workable metal.

Since the advent of the McDonald Mill small scale rolling of hot steel has come into the blacksmith shop. It is especialy useful for making laminated steel (Damascus).

All the chip making processes (by hand or by machine) are used in the blacksmith shop. Drill presses are an absolute necessity followed by lathes, shapers and milling machines. "Iron chisling" is a high art form and is combined with forging and other metal moving techniques to produce everything from sculpture to pieces of armor and weapons.

For welding and cutting many smiths have moved beyond oxy-acetylene to plasma torches and even laser cutting. Computer automated torches ae used to cut everything from silhouettes to forging blanks (pre-forms).

In the complete blacksmith shop every metal working technique both modern and ancient are applied. If it sounds like a machine shop, well, it IS. The differnce is the focus of the work.

Lots to study and to learn. . .
- guru - Saturday, 08/09/03 11:57:21 EDT email to you at that address bounced. Send me a good email address, please.
Paw Paw - Saturday, 08/09/03 20:39:01 EDT

Quad State: Bob H. & Paw Paw
Sorry guys. I'm not affiliated with SOFA. I was just quoting from the booklet I received in the mail the other day. I attended last year and they sent me the info for this one. Hope to see you guys there.
- Larry - Saturday, 08/09/03 23:14:27 EDT

Charles Tate, I need a good email address for you.
Paw Paw - Sunday, 08/10/03 07:24:15 EDT

Quench tub mosquito cotrol: Simple! A plywood or sheet metal cover when not in use.
- Ron J. - Sunday, 08/10/03 11:25:10 EDT

So I get home in the wee hours this morning from work and find the postal service has come through yet again. There, on the kitchen counter, sits my(new)copy of Machinery's Handbook (13th ed.1st printing). Looks in decent shape. Binding is ok. No stains, all pages are there... good good. Then I start to read and it hits me... I know nothing! I've never known anything. Holy ravioli Batman! What a book. Now the folks that figured all this stuff out before there WAS a book like this, THEY knew something.
Humble, oh so very humble, Rich
Gronk - Sunday, 08/10/03 11:35:26 EDT


It is a bit humbling, isn't it? (wry grin)
Paw Paw - Sunday, 08/10/03 22:20:21 EDT

Before the BOOK:
Machinery's isn't called the machinists (or mechanics, or blacksmiths or engineers) bible without good reason.

One of the most well known early engineers was James Watt. I was lucky enough to pick up the most authoritative book on his life and work "James Watt and the Steam Engine", Dickenson & Jenkins, Oxford University Press, 1927, 415pp. at a Library sale. Among the things he had to invent was the steam pressure guage. From that he went on to invent the strip recorder (in the 1700's!). At the time there was no materials engineering and the typical test of large parts was to bridge them between two large trees, attach a team of horses and PULL. . . This was the era when machines were first compared to animal power and the result was HP (horse power). Watt and others of the time invented the science of materials engineering so that they could build bigger and better machines safely and with known safety factors.

As to who invented it the book did not say, but to solve a surveying problem measuring a line across a great river, Watt (who was trained as an instrument maker) built a split image range finder. This is the same device used in modern manual and automatic camera focusing systems.

Watt was a hero of his later fellow Scott, James Nasmyth. Naysmyth went on to be one of the greatest inventors until the time of Edison. He invented automatic feeds, the steam hammer, the steam pile driver, the shaper the lathe reversing mechanism and the foundry safety ladle among other things. He was lucky enough to work in another of his hero's shops, that of Henry Maudslay the inventor of the screw lathe. There he learned among other things how precision master screws were made by hand and how surface plates were made.

All these gentlemen lived in very interesting times. They were on the leading edge of the industrial revolution and it was hard NOT to make important inventions. They knew each other as well as great people of the era including Newton and Bessemer.

Yes, it is awe inspiring to see what these people did starting with nothing. Much of what they did and how they did it is why many of us are drawn to blacksmithing and making our own tools as well as other things from the most basic beginings.

See our book review of Machinery's Handbook and our on-line copy of James Nasmyth's autobiography.

Mcahinery's Book Review
- guru - Monday, 08/11/03 11:19:56 EDT

Huntsville trip: Had a great time in Huntsville Pioneer Village. Lived and worked as a pioneer smith. It was broke we fied it. Made lots of different items. On our last night there DJ and myself said we should make something big. Made a dinner gong to hang in a tree. Is made out of 2.5 " round stock 6' long. It both of us to hang it. DJ as never seen that forge do the work it did that night. The gong can be heard all over the Village.
Barney - Monday, 08/11/03 17:52:43 EDT


Glad you had a good time. A triangle that big would certainly be pretty loud. Could be used for a fire bell. (grin)
Paw Paw - Monday, 08/11/03 19:40:01 EDT

Handbooks: Guru, I have a MH from about 1975 and still refer to it occasionally. I also have the Handbook of Chemistry and Physics, about the same size pages as MH but about 1" thicker. Then there is the ASM Metals Handbooks, up to about 16 volumes now I think. Side by side the whole set is about 3 feet thick in telephone book size pages. Throw in Mark's Handbook of Mechanical Engineering, Juran's Handbook of Quality, and all the other "Handbooks" and you start to appreciate just how much humankind has learned in the last thousand years or so. Technical books that are current are hideously expensive (engineering books average about $200 new) but technology is changing so rapidly, you cannot rely on books over 5 years old in many cases. My degree is over 25 years old and I make it a point to buy current metallurgy texts every few years just to stay close to current. However, if you think education is expensive, consider the cost of ignorance.
- Quenchcrack - Monday, 08/11/03 21:18:06 EDT

hydaulic press?
- scott - Monday, 08/11/03 23:09:33 EDT


What about hydraulic press?
Paw Paw - Monday, 08/11/03 23:53:37 EDT

Books: QC, I heartily agree that you can not have enough reference books and I have most of the one you listed (and many others). I would like to be able to afford the complete ASM set but it is out of my budget so I only have selected volumes. It really needs to be in the anvilfire/CSI library.

I like the old references because they often cover subjects that I am interested in that the newer ones do not. Grant Sarver has chided me several times about getting up to date references. . . And I DO have some books published after 1980. . .

When I was researching Mass2 (see Mass3j link) I bought old and new copies of the CRC Handbook of Chemistry and Physics. I had several concurrent editions at the time and submitted errata notes to the publisher (little errors creep in). But
I also have stacks of engineering references from the 1940's. One that is a real treasure is Timoshenko on Stress and Stain. It is still referred to by authors of various engingeering references and is better than its derivations.

I've used Marks', the ASTE Handbook and the American Institute of Physics Handbook and Machinery' Handbook is still the best for our field.
- guru - Tuesday, 08/12/03 10:45:24 EDT

Books: I have a thin text published in the very early 1900's by the Chief Metallurgist of the Watervleet Arsenal. It is a collection of photomicrographs of various microstructures of forged cannon barrels and receivers. Useless, but priceless!
By the way, Stress and STAIN? Sounds like a personal problem.......
- Quenchcrack - Tuesday, 08/12/03 19:57:41 EDT

Machinery's Handbook: while looking for Machinery's Handbook I found it is available on CD-Rom 29.99 at kbtools for the next two days.
Habu - Tuesday, 08/12/03 22:52:49 EDT

POWERHAMMERS: I JUST BOUGHT A SMALL AIR HAMMER (CONVERTED STEAM) it was built in Eire,PA. Edsilbarr Eng. mfg. it Has anyone had any experiance or any information on this hammer, approx. 50 lb head .
- Ken T - Wednesday, 08/13/03 00:55:30 EDT

Old Hammer: Eire hammers were a big name in steam hammers. Lots of the rally big ones still in use world wide. But like all the rest of the US manufacturers of such things they are long out of business.

Everyone that owns these machines (or any of the mechanical hammers except LG) are pretty much on there own when it comes to parts and maintenance. On the steam hammers if the cylinder control valve is good and tight or can be made to be tight then the hammer will usualy run well. When there is bypass in the valve the hammer loses power AND uses a lot more air than it should.

The general assembly method on these machines changed very little from the time James Nasmyth invented them in 1830 until they stopped being made in the 1950's. Normaly the drive rod is attached to the ram by a tapered fit which usualy has a safety pin to keep it from falling off if the taper slips. To drive the rod out you remove the die and drive the ram down over a pin through a hole in the bottom of the ram dovetail. You use the power of the machine itself to install and remove the tapered fit on the ram.

Packing on the drive rod is standard graphite filled steam valve packing. The rest is pretty much common mechanics. Many of the older mechanics and machists handbook have a chapter on steam hammers.

These are great machines. You can do a lot with them. But I wouldn't just guess at the ram weight. Do some calculations. The die, drive rod and piston count too.
- guru - Wednesday, 08/13/03 18:09:31 EDT

Anvilfire Homepage: Guru, and whoever else might be involved.

Thanks for the new Homepage layout with the changing illustrations. I love looking at the old prints. Especially the one of George Washington at the forge. Keep 'em coming.
- Larry - Wednesday, 08/13/03 21:39:03 EDT


If you like the old pictures, you'd love the calendars put out by Gill Farhenwald. Each month has a different picture of a blacksmith shop or blacksmit activity from around the turn of the century (1900) I've gotten every calendar he's printed, just ordered next years last night. I've kept all of the pictures (and Jock will soon have them to put into the rotation for the home page). I use them on the front and back of "clear-vue" notebooks that I keep smithing magazines in.
Paw Paw - Thursday, 08/14/03 17:03:53 EDT

pictures: Larry,
If you like pictures of old blacksmiths, I am sure I can find a few of PawPaw......(VBG, and now I will go hide...)
Ralph - Thursday, 08/14/03 17:37:32 EDT


Where's that razor strop when I need it?
Paw Paw - Thursday, 08/14/03 17:53:00 EDT

Ken T: I would be interested in talking to you about your hammer. Send me an email.
- Coalforge - Thursday, 08/14/03 21:23:51 EDT

Old Pics: Thanks for the info, Paw Paw. Don't worry about what all the other kids say. It ain't the years that show, it's the miles. Feels like my odometer is getting ready to turn over again.

PS. A leather boot top works damn near as good as a razor strop. ....Especially on skinning knifes.
- Larry - Thursday, 08/14/03 22:31:33 EDT

re: leather boot top. So does a leather belt. In Fact, a leather belt works better because it has a rough side and a smooth side.
Paw Paw - Thursday, 08/14/03 23:25:51 EDT

Steam Hammer: Ken T. I was just at the Rough and Tumble Historic Engineers -Thesherman Reuion. Runs in Kinzers PA. What a bunch of great old machinery. Steam engines of all types as well as gas.I was amazed at the size of gas powered engines. I forgot my camera! Other wise I would have posted some. Back to the point of STEAM. I would guess if anyone knew about steam these guys would. I do not have there E-Mail address at the moment but you could put a search on it, or come back to me and I will post it.By the way they have a Blacksmith shop there, Peter Ross demoed. But they did not have a steam hammer, just a small mechanical. I would be sure they would love to have one of the steam hammers donated.I am not a member but it would be great to have an operational steam hammer for the public to see.
- Ron J. - Friday, 08/15/03 08:13:35 EDT

photos: PPW- apparently Ralph missed the photo we posted on the Yahoo site of you in your younger days. Maybe you can email it to him. VBG

Brian C - Friday, 08/15/03 08:31:07 EDT

You honing for a session with the razor strop? (grin)
Paw Paw - Friday, 08/15/03 10:49:04 EDT

blacksmiths: hey out there- if there are any smiths out there in the roanoke/ christiansburg area ( within a hour's drive), who are interested in starting a group for the education and spreading of our skills please drop me a line or two. I can be reached at I am looking for those who are expirenced aswell as people like me that are just starting out in this craft. If you can teach or would just like to learn, you are what I'm looking for.

Paw paw what's a razor strop?
Dragon boy - Friday, 08/15/03 11:55:40 EDT

Dragon Boy:

It's a piece of leather used for the final sharpening of a straight razor.
Paw Paw - Friday, 08/15/03 13:12:22 EDT

ppw: Oh kay, ialways called that a razor strap, i just figured old age was getting to you!(grin)
Dragon boy - Friday, 08/15/03 17:02:15 EDT

Dragon Boy,:
You want an introduction to the strop too? (grin)

Acutally, the spelling comes because that's the term that is used for removing the final wire edge that develops on a blade (of any kind) when it's sharpened on a stone.
Paw Paw - Friday, 08/15/03 17:07:27 EDT

wow: (in sotto voce) I'm surprised he's still grinning after all that....
Two Swords - Saturday, 08/16/03 03:59:30 EDT

Strop: Another function of the strop is to straighten out the thinnest edge of the blade. A fine edge will get bent and nicked in use and the strop gets the edge back into a straight line. That is what those tall-hat chefs do when they run the edge of a carving knife across a steel. Stropping makes the edge a more efficient cutting tool but doesn't really sharpen it unless you are using a fine abrasive on the strop. Tripoli, Jewelers Rouge and silicon carbide lapping compound are all good abrasives for a strop.A piece of very fine wet-or-dry sandpaper on a sheet of glass works pretty good too. Of course, I would hesitate to whoop the fire out of someone with a sheet of glass.....
- Quenchcrack - Saturday, 08/16/03 07:47:43 EDT

Pictures ?: I hear lots about pics being put on Yahoo for this site etc.. how does one do this ?
Barney - Sunday, 08/17/03 09:57:15 EDT


On the pull down menu, go to: User Galler (yahoo). At Yahoo, look on the "groups" index, for Anvilfire Fotos. Apply to join the group. I'll approve you and then you will be able to make an "album" and post pictures in there.
Paw Paw - Sunday, 08/17/03 11:24:04 EDT

tools forging: any blueprints of blacksmith tools, used books, will accept happily,
- lishar - Sunday, 08/17/03 14:38:59 EDT


Check the iForge section here at Anvilfire. There are several tools described there with instructions on how to make them.
Paw Paw - Sunday, 08/17/03 15:30:18 EDT

Anvil Fotos: I think it worked...
Barney - Sunday, 08/17/03 16:49:39 EDT


If you signed up as Joseph Murphy, it did. (grin)
Paw Paw - Sunday, 08/17/03 17:33:51 EDT

J Murphy: Sorry not me.....
Barney - Sunday, 08/17/03 20:58:45 EDT


Figured that out when your application came through.
Paw Paw - Sunday, 08/17/03 22:25:13 EDT

Anvil shoot pic: Hey. Neat looking photo of the anvil shoot. I may be preaching to the choir here, but the activity of shooting anvils started back in frontier days. The pioneers would fire one off whenever Indians were in the area. The loud bang and whirring sound of the anvil flying through the air was supposed to fool the Indians into thinking they had cannon at the fort.

Later it became a holiday thing: Christmas, The Fourth. The old home place where my father was born and raised had a three inch hole drilled into a rock ledge. Dad said my grandfather would place a black powder charge in it and cap it with a big rock every Christmas Eve. Then at midnight he would set it off. Of course all the neighbors would be out firing shotguns and setting off firecrackers too. Yes we Kentuckians are about a half bubble off plumb.
- Larry - Sunday, 08/17/03 22:29:37 EDT


Thank you. (I think that's a picture that was extracted from a video that I shot, but it may be a picture the guru shot at the same show. I'm not sure)

Actually anvil shooting came from England with the colonists according to some
Paw Paw - Sunday, 08/17/03 23:12:31 EDT

Hay-Budden serial #: Could anyone please tell me the approximate year of manufacture of my new Hay-Budden with the serial number "A3900" ? It is a 358 lb beauty. As soon as my wife recovers from its purchase, I intend to buy Mr. Postman's book and stop pestering you fine folks for info!
Layne Hendrickson - Sunday, 08/17/03 23:14:29 EDT



Better give her a couple of months. In the meantime, as long as I've got the information needed to make an ID, or determine an age, I don't mind doing it at all.
Paw Paw - Monday, 08/18/03 00:24:43 EDT

movies: hey kidos-
for those of you out there who for one reason or another have not taken the oppertunity to go and see Pirates of the carribean, you should. the wife and I went to see it, and are waiting with baited breathe for its release for sale. Orlando Bloom (legolas from lord of the rings ) plays a interesting sword smith. I don't remember any cusing, and no sex sceens. A great movie for the family. just has a little vivid horror for the skeletons, but theyre not to grisly. i really think you are missing out on a great movie and date night oppertunity if you don't go see it.
just thought I'd throw my two bits worth in.
- dragonboy - Monday, 08/18/03 08:40:32 EDT

Anvil Shoot Photo:
The one on the home page is one I shot with a still camera. We have a stop action copy of the video Paw-Paw took on one of our iForge July 4th demos. There is also a series in our recent news coverage of the Southeastern Conference.
- guru - Monday, 08/18/03 11:29:14 EDT

Somebody had asked me about copies of the Civil War Forge plans, and I've lost the message. Who was it, please?
- Paw Paw - Monday, 08/18/03 14:02:10 EDT

CIvil War plans: So Paw Paw did you copy all the plans as you were sitting there during the planning stage of the Civil War? BTW was Lincoln really that tall? I thought I would just ask one of his contemparaies....
Ralph - Monday, 08/18/03 14:13:15 EDT


He was too much man to get in a submarine! (wipe the blood off your chin! LOL)
Paw Paw - Monday, 08/18/03 14:21:11 EDT

Manhood...: Actually one of my commanding officers was a short man of 6' 8". His favorite boat to serve on was the old 594(I think that was the number) class fast boats. A man of about 5' 6" would find it cramped....
Ralph - Monday, 08/18/03 15:18:16 EDT

razor's: all that talk of razors reminded me. have any of you try to make one?
I did one a few weeks back, looks good but I think I may have set the edge wrong, as it cuts well but I can't get it to shave?!!! I haven't had time to mess with it but I will get that darn thing to shave!!!!
MP - Monday, 08/18/03 19:08:04 EDT

Razors: I was wondering that myself... a straight razor sounds like a fun project... and if you make extra you can always give them to PPW, his is probably worn out from taking care of all the "i want to make a sword!!111" people (VBG).
- T. Gold - Monday, 08/18/03 19:21:08 EDT

Razors: Have not had a clean shaven face since I left the Service.. Same with a hair cut.. Just a few trims twice a year (grin)
Barney - Monday, 08/18/03 20:13:56 EDT

Straight Razor:

Actually, I have my grandfather's straight razor, his sharpening stone and his strop. I use it occasionally, it's actually what I learned to shave with. Used to bug the guys in my squad/platoon/company, I kept my bayonet sharp enough to dry shave with. Didn't have to carry all the fancy stuff. In basic, one of the DI's saw me shaving with my bayonet, and called all the rest of the DI's to "Look what this crazy boot is doing!". (grin)
Paw Paw - Monday, 08/18/03 21:32:42 EDT

Sad News: I just received an email from Jack Egniatinsky, the only other smith here on St. Croix, and a former student of Frank Turley. Jack was diagnosed with fibrosarcoma in his thigh and has undergone two surgeries and is leaving for Tampa tomorrow for radiation and chemotherapy. Jack is a really NICE guy; he emailed me to let me know that I was welcome to use the forge at the Botanical Gardens while he is away. With his problems, he still thinks of others. Darn few people like that left in this world. Keep him in your thoughts and prayers, please.
vicopper - Monday, 08/18/03 21:40:19 EDT


Darnit! Wilco!
Paw Paw - Monday, 08/18/03 21:56:50 EDT

PPW: These young puppies think of the *American* Civil War as *old*! This is an international forum and *most* countries have had a civil war or two, or three...I remember sitting ina pub talking with some folks who did metal detecting and were telling me about finding a pair of spurs from "the civil war" coming from NW AR I was not as impressed as civil war finds are pretty common until I rememberd I was in *England* and their civil war was about 200 years *earlier* than ours...(their most recent one that is).

I was trying to find that petroglyph of Paw Paw striking for Tubal Cain, but all I could dig up was that clay tablet about the time he went out drinking with Noah...

Thomas wearing bifocals myself
- Thomas Powers - Tuesday, 08/19/03 10:23:30 EDT


I thought I got rid of all those tablets! Destroy it please, I don't want my wife to see it!
Paw Paw - Tuesday, 08/19/03 10:35:16 EDT


If Thomas decides to screen that clay tablet, that picture of him and the chimpanzee is NOT staged, it's the real thing! He forgot that I was taking pictures with my stylus.
Paw Paw - Tuesday, 08/19/03 17:14:26 EDT

old or not: Thomas,
The war between the States is not old. At least I do not think so.
After my wife and I were married I was talking with her dad, and it turns out that he was born when his dad was 66 and his dad was born when his dad was 64, which puts Dawns, great grand pa as being born right at the War of independance time frame.... so that was only 4 generations ago... (grin) And to think I have a picture of 5 generations in it... My great grandpa, grandma, dad, me and my daughter....
Ralph - Tuesday, 08/19/03 17:20:39 EDT

Paw Paw: Thanks for the date on my Hay Budden. I've heard tell that they stopped using a plate for the face around then. I'm not sure if mine is the later or earlier style. Do you know when they switched methods and is one style considered better than the other?
Layne Hendrickson - Tuesday, 08/19/03 19:48:27 EDT


The changover from a steel plate to a steel top half of the anvil started in 1909 and was essentially complete sometime during 1909, so your's is a later style.

Better? Good, better, best are so subjective as to be darn near meaningless. What is better to me, might be worse to you. But Hay Budden believed that the change was beneficial, because it was no longer possible for the face to separate from the body.
Paw Paw - Tuesday, 08/19/03 20:37:27 EDT


Changeover started in 1908, not 1909. Changeover was complete in 1909.
Paw Paw - Tuesday, 08/19/03 20:38:25 EDT

Hay Budden: Thanks. That's really interesting. I would assume that they only hardened the face and not the cutting step and horn? Was the top half cast steel and the bottom wrought? It kinda looks as if that were the case.
Layne Hendrickson - Tuesday, 08/19/03 21:15:27 EDT


If I remember correctly, the top have was forged steel. A billet was step forged in a series of closed dies.
Paw Paw - Tuesday, 08/19/03 21:25:16 EDT

Anvil tops: It is kinda interesting that while HayBudden made an early switch to one piece forged anvil faces, Trenton continued to go with welded on faces until the cost of materials made it more economial(sp) to go with the solid top. They switched to one piece forgings in I beleave the late 30's and at the same time, HayBudden went back to welded on faces.

I beleave that this was the case, it has been a while since I read my A.I.A. book.
- Wayne Parris - Wednesday, 08/20/03 08:24:33 EDT

microwave smelting: something found while looking for other things.... how to smelt metal in a microwave oven. From popular says here "don't try this at home" big grin
smelting in a microwave
- habu - Wednesday, 08/20/03 15:49:15 EDT

microwave smelting : another sorce
microwave smelting II
habu - Wednesday, 08/20/03 16:07:25 EDT

Microwave forging: `With all this talk about microwave smelting you just know someone is going to ask about converting one to a forge.
- Larry - Wednesday, 08/20/03 19:59:31 EDT

Microwave forging: It'll never catch on, Larry. You'd have to have the door open and we all know that if you run the micro with the door open your gonads fall off. Who do you know who's gonna go for that?
vicopper - Wednesday, 08/20/03 23:58:36 EDT

Vic: most of us should not breed anyway
habu - Thursday, 08/21/03 01:58:36 EDT

Genital Meltdown: I love the Craft, but I b'lieve I'll draw the line at that point!
- 3dogs - Thursday, 08/21/03 02:02:34 EDT

meltdown: Sounds like something that'll show up on joe cartoon. Rough mental image, that. Sending in my reggy for SOFA this week, soon's I figger out who my travel buddy is and where we gonna sleep....
Two Swords - Thursday, 08/21/03 02:15:41 EDT

Mo' Meltdown.: You can figger on burning the steel from time to time, but ya gotta remember to protect yer tools.
3dogs - Thursday, 08/21/03 02:21:38 EDT

SOFA: See ya there, Two Swords
3dogs - Thursday, 08/21/03 02:23:36 EDT

Paw Paw, I'll admit to training the chimp to work the bellows but doing it wearing a tutu was *your* idea!

Thomas, hunting for his instruction manual written in etruscan linear B on how to teach ex DI's to forge---they keep breaking anvils with the rubber mallet!
- Thomas Powers - Thursday, 08/21/03 10:14:42 EDT

Neat wooden forge to look at.: Hey guys there is a mostly wooden forge for sale on ebay. Not that I would really want it, but it should be a really good thing to show the guys that can't do anything with out a new forge. Check it out at: It really makes you think and shows what you can do if you really want to be a blacksmith
- Gary Smith (boobear) - Thursday, 08/21/03 10:46:59 EDT


> Thomas, hunting for his instruction manual written in etruscan linear B on how to teach ex DI's to forge---they keep breaking anvils > with the rubber mallet!

Just goes to show you how hard a DI can be! (LOL)
Paw Paw - Thursday, 08/21/03 12:09:24 EDT

this is for those of you who are 6ft 4in tall.
How far apart are your anvil and your actual forge?
- dragon-boy - Thursday, 08/21/03 16:07:32 EDT


The rule of thumb is the same, no matter what the height of the smith. At least one step away from the forge, never more than two steps.
Paw Paw - Thursday, 08/21/03 16:25:30 EDT

SOFA: Two Swords,
I have stayed at the Fairfield Inn the last 2 years during Quad State. Very nice place.
Brian C - Thursday, 08/21/03 16:53:23 EDT

Quad-State: our local group camps on-site as a group, just look for the flaming anvil after dark.

- Thomas Powers - Thursday, 08/21/03 17:28:35 EDT

anvil /forge relationships: PawPaw, now that is normally correct, but then we can get into the idea of are you going to be doing large structural stuff or not...(grin)

dragon-boy, PawPaw is correct. I try to have my work area in a triangle ( sorta like the Bermuda triangle...) forge at one point anvil another and post vise the third..... all are for me 1 1/2 steps apart. But then again I am only 5' 10" My buddy who is 6' 3" has his set up one step apart for him, for me is is just over one step.... I must take big step....
Ralph - Thursday, 08/21/03 17:47:11 EDT

Dragon Boy and Ralph,:

I tend to think in terms of a clock face. My forge is at 12 o'clock, the post vise is at 3 o'clock the power hammer is at 6 o'clock and the anvil is at 9 o'clock. I stand in the center, and it's right at a step from where I am to any tool. When I move the gas forge out to the power hammer, (occasionally for production work. I put it between the power hammer and the anvil.
Paw Paw - Thursday, 08/21/03 18:26:24 EDT

Paw Paw: What kind of power hammer do you have? I'm fascinated by them and am always curious about what type that various smiths use. Thanks

- Mike - Thursday, 08/21/03 19:45:54 EDT


I'm the proud owner of the North Carolina Junk Yard Hammer, sometimes known as The Big Green Machine. You can see pictures of it on the power hammer page here on anvilfire. Go to the Power Hammer Page, click on the Catalog of User Built Hammers, and scroll about half way down the page on the left hand side.

Paw Paw - Thursday, 08/21/03 20:09:59 EDT

SOFA: good deal, see you fellas there. If my travel bud is my wifeling, we'll stay at a hotel. If it's "Old Calvin the Uber-Smith," we'll prolly camp on-site.

Thomas Powers - flaming anvil? Guess I'll know when I see it. How many folks gonna be there for the iron pour Friday night?
Two Swords - Friday, 08/22/03 02:55:32 EDT

Paw Paw:: That arrangement seems odd to me, are you left handed?

Or should that question be ‘are you a south paw, Paw Paw’ :)
Nigel - Friday, 08/22/03 07:35:27 EDT


No, I'm right handed, but for many years in the service, all movement starts with the left foot.
Paw Paw - Friday, 08/22/03 08:28:08 EDT

Paw Paw: I was just coming back to add ' or do you do a lot of work at the vice ' but that has answered that
Nigel - Friday, 08/22/03 08:39:58 EDT

oddities: Pawpaw thanks for the info! While not actually having served I did take 4 years of jrotc in highschool (only graduated in '99) so that is my natural way of movement as well. I do not have a vise yet so all I can do is set my shop up with those convinence tools in mind. Afterall it is only a matter of time in comming.
(that would explain a lot, stupid patner set every thing up about 4 steps apart! opposite side of the shop. approximately 12 feet from each other!)
dragon-boy - Friday, 08/22/03 08:42:48 EDT

Nigel & Dragon Boy:

Niget, I'm retired army and was a drill sgt for a while. I could no more start on my right foot than I could fly without a plane.

Dragon Boy, Just remember the clock face and one step. You'll find it very convenient.
Paw Paw - Friday, 08/22/03 08:58:23 EDT

Paw Paw's Past: Don't none of you new boots get on Paw Paw's bad side. He might make you drop and give him fity then low crawl a few miles. (VBG)

Comp'ny Ten-hut! For'ard harch. Yo left, yo left,yo left,right,left. Had a good job but I left,yo right. Jodie was there when left,yo right. Sound off, one, two. Sound off, three, four. One, two, three, four. One, two, three, four.
- Larry - Friday, 08/22/03 18:56:41 EDT

Paw Paw, I always ASSumed a forge setup would be handed to your dominant hand, rather than 'footed'. I have a book toolmaking for woodworkers, and the setup there looked decidedly odd until I spotted him working left handed in one pic.

Dragon Boy, when you setup your first forge leave things mobile (I mean don't bolt it down or concrete it in), a 6 inch change of location or a couple of degrees twist can improve things a lot.
- Nigel - Friday, 08/22/03 19:17:39 EDT


Take a look at your setup (which is perfect, if it works for youer) and see which makes more difference. If you are holding your stock in your left hand, and your hammer in your right hand which is the shortest turning radius to put the stock on the anvil. (grin)

Your suggestion about leaving things mobile is a darned good suggestion. I'd suggest leaving them "loose" for at least 6 months before you start bolting them down. Leave time to be SURE of where you want them.
Paw Paw - Friday, 08/22/03 20:38:34 EDT

dragon boy: I am 6'6" tall. I am one step away from forge, anvil, vice and a step and a half from my power hammer. Small shop(grin)
R Guess - Saturday, 08/23/03 21:59:15 EDT

Paw Paw: -brush loose scale off the anvil (again)

-reach out sideways for hot metal

-turn body to anvil,look for hammer

-pick up hanner and start befor forging

I tend to work on small stuff, when i had a forge set up outside my feet were usually in a 20 inch patch bare of grass. none of this stepping nonsence:)
- Nigel - Sunday, 08/24/03 04:30:42 EDT

Then that's perfect for you. I need a bit more space, probably because I'm usually working with longer stock. (not necessarily BIGGER, but longer. I work with mostly 1/2", occasionally up to 1")
Paw Paw - Sunday, 08/24/03 09:19:18 EDT

pawpaw: set thing up your way over week end, like it alot, made some roses-ala-rev. blacksmith, and taught the wife too. she made a pair of hair stick for her bunn. dang but she's cute trying to use my bigger hammers. she has to use a small ball pein to work with, but we're working on that!BTW, she said to thank you for the setup to. tried a few thing the other way,and just could not work for her. Also I have it setup in such a way that I only have to turn 90 degrees with no step. the other workers with me have to take a half step, but they're only 5ft 6in or there abouts.
- dragon-boy - Monday, 08/25/03 09:59:19 EDT

joke for shorties: you know you are short when your shoes show up in you ID photo. (grin)
- dragon-boy - Monday, 08/25/03 10:00:29 EDT

Dragone Boy:

Great! Glad it worked for you! Try some of the other projects in TRB.
Paw Paw - Monday, 08/25/03 10:16:32 EDT

ppw- trb?: well so far as I could tell these are all the trb projects
Touch marks, fire place set, fork and spoonset,chain, hoofpicks, wagontires, claw hammers, bayonetts, padlocks, froe, adz, camp grill, doorlatches, candelholders, horse shoes, roses,and bullet molds. Did I miss any? Some time this week we are going to try making touchmarks, any suggestions for the punch steel?(scrap type suggestions are always more bennefical to me then numbers to buy it)
dragon-boy - Tuesday, 08/26/03 09:25:13 EDT

Most any high carbon steel will do for touch marks and die plate. I've seen several may out of old lug wrenches. Even mild steel quenched in Super Quench would work, but they'd wear out pretty fast. I didn't have to specify in TRB, because marking wrought iron was a lot easier than any grade of steel. Looks like you got most of them.
Paw Paw - Tuesday, 08/26/03 10:14:47 EDT

allan wrenches?: pawpaw I do have some really big allan wrenches lieing in the mound o' shtuff. would those work well or do i need to keep digging. I HAVE no idea other than mack trucks what these sucker could possibly have been used for originally. got them in a yard sale for $1.00 for three of them. they are about an inch across the ends, of course they also have the hexagonal shape to them.
dragon-boy - Tuesday, 08/26/03 10:28:23 EDT

Those allen wrenches should work fine. Anneal them first, before you start carving the end. The hex shape might actually be a plus, I don't recall seeing many touch marks in a hex frame.
Paw Paw - Tuesday, 08/26/03 11:51:49 EDT

pawpaw: is there any reason way i can not work these hot? they are over a foot long, and in theroy all I have to do is carve the design into a block to create a place to redo the image. then when 'bout an inch or two of the wrench is hot i hammer it into the "die block". Or did I misunderstand the way you wrote it in trb?
dragon-boy - Tuesday, 08/26/03 13:26:02 EDT

pawpaw: by the way some how I gave you a different address for email. please use the one at to reach me
dragon-boy - Tuesday, 08/26/03 13:28:21 EDT


It can actually be done in either sequence. The die plate can be the first stamping done with the touch mark, or the touch mark can be made from the die plate. Usually the die plate is made first, and all the subsequent touch marks are made from it.

Making the die plate first insures a little cleaner touchmark.

Remember to harden the die plate BEFORE making a touchmark from it.

I just replied to your email, but I'll check to be sure which address I have on your card.
Paw Paw - Tuesday, 08/26/03 14:19:39 EDT

touch marks: About the only down side to using these 'allen' wrenches is the size. I usually do not work anything big enough to use a touchmark that is an inch across. So you would have to work them down. I would say go to a local steel yard and ask if they have any drops of S-7 or H-13. It does not take much for a touch mark so it should be fairly inexspensive.
Ralph - Tuesday, 08/26/03 15:38:42 EDT

pawpaw: Where do you get your Shaklee basic I,
Is this stuff carried by LOWES? or is it a small scale opperations joint only? looked in the yellow pages, could find nothing for shaklee anything. help me please!
dragon-boy - Tuesday, 08/26/03 15:40:07 EDT

Shaklee Basic I

Shaklee is a line of biodegradeable detergetns. They are sold by distributors, who are usually listed in the Yello pages, but may be listed in the Business section instead.
Paw Paw - Tuesday, 08/26/03 15:51:46 EDT

pawpaw: is this stuff the same as their basic h?
dragon-boy - Tuesday, 08/26/03 16:22:29 EDT

ppw: how nessasary is this to sq?
dragon-boy - Tuesday, 08/26/03 16:25:19 EDT

ppw: What i'm asking is does it have to be that or can it be any liquid organic degreaser? As I can obtain this through my own bussines
dragon-boy - Tuesday, 08/26/03 16:30:03 EDT

others out there: I don't mean to just ask ppw all ? i ask go for anyone out there who knows answer
dragon-boy - Tuesday, 08/26/03 16:31:47 EDT

anyone : if some one could just email me the ingredient contained in shaklee basic I I could tell if my L.O.C. will work or not. Afterall mine is cheaper and that way I'm suporting my own bussiness.
dragon-boy - Tuesday, 08/26/03 16:38:42 EDT

I think LOC will work. Best way to find out would be to mix up a batch, making the substitution, and use it. When you do, tell me what sound the sterl makes when you place it into the Quench and I'll tell you whether it worked or not.

Amway? Sheri and I did that for a while.
Paw Paw - Tuesday, 08/26/03 16:50:12 EDT

steel, not sterl.
Paw Paw - Tuesday, 08/26/03 16:51:08 EDT

ppw: close, but no cigar. QUIXTAR. if you want to know the difference let me know via email.
dragon-boy - Tuesday, 08/26/03 16:55:31 EDT

all: well I'm off heading for the perverbial cave to hide in for the night. see ya tomorrow!
dragon-boy - Tuesday, 08/26/03 16:57:44 EDT

DB: What about gun barrels?

Thomas on tenterhooks waiting for more TRB
- Thomas Powers - Tuesday, 08/26/03 22:57:21 EDT

t.p.: True the gun barrels I did leave out, mostly because me myself and i... well we're not quite ready to tackle somfing like that. Guess for that matter i probly shouldna have included the tire.
dragon-boy - Wednesday, 08/27/03 08:33:37 EDT

shouldering: I am reading Plain and Ornamental Forging by Schwarzkopf. Really an excellent book. Packed with material and diagrams. Exercises from novice to advanced. Frank Turley teaches from it. I dont know why it isnt more popular.

Anyway many of his examples show shouldering being done with the hammer on the near edge of the anvil. I dont think I have seen this done freehand - even Frank used a tenoning tool. How many of you guys can produce an accurate two (or four) sided shoulder this way? Sure would be nice to have that kind of skill in my hammer!
adam - Wednesday, 08/27/03 10:43:37 EDT

ABC's: Help!,
an artist freind of mine is working on a blacksmiths ABC series. We can not come up with anything for "Z" that would lend it'self to a drawing. Please feel free to answer here. (no idea too silly, it might spark a usable idea in someone) of if we're wasting too much bandwidth with it free free to email me with your suggestions.
- JimG - Wednesday, 08/27/03 13:35:29 EDT

abc's email: and since my email addy didn't show up it's
jmg AT sasktel DOT net
- JimG - Wednesday, 08/27/03 13:37:14 EDT

Z is for Zee Forge. which must always be hot.
Paw Paw - Wednesday, 08/27/03 14:08:20 EDT

Z: Zee is for "xylophone" which has no place in a forge!

Zee is the last letter. Enough zed!
- adam - Wednesday, 08/27/03 15:21:02 EDT

zzz: Zzz is the sound you make when you get back home and rest!
dragon-boy - Wednesday, 08/27/03 15:57:16 EDT

shoulders: adam, I will say first I am not accurate, but I first learned to make tenons and shoulders this way... And that is how I often do it now....
But once I have time and money I will make a tenon tool. I saw one demoed 2 years ago. There are even pictures of it in the NEWS area. Look for the HANLEY FARM write up.....
Ralph - Wednesday, 08/27/03 16:13:22 EDT

shoulders: Ralph: Thanks! I had planned to make a fullering tool like Jr Strasil's at However if it can be done with just the hammer, I will try to learn it. As they say "tool up - skill down"

Do you do anything special to help your aim or do you just use craftmanship? Schwarzkopf suggests marking the shoulder with a ctr punch and placing the work with the mark uppermost so that you have something to aim for. Can you get clean results with this method or is only good enough to clean up with a monkey tool? Any tips would be appreciated.
adam - Wednesday, 08/27/03 16:32:16 EDT

All about Z: zarf: a metalic cuplike stand for a finjan

finjan: In the Levant, a small coffee cup without a handle,
such as is held in a cup or stand called a zarf

zax: a tool for trimming and puncturing roofing slates

zetetic: seeking, proceeding by inquiry, the method used for finding the value of unknown quantities by direct search, in investigation, or in the solution of problems, a brach of algebra

zone: as in zones for work spaces

zounds: an old oath, used esp. as an expression of anger or wonder

zumbooruk: a small cannon mounted on a swivel, esp. one supported by, and fired from, a rest on the back of a camel, used in the East

zihar: temporary seperation of man and wife

All of the above words can be used in conjunction with a blacksmith shop either as a product of said shop, process, design or activity. However it would seem to me that zone, zarf and zax would be easier to illustrate than the others.

Zounds, there are a lot of words out there!

Caleb Ramsby
Caleb Ramsby - Wednesday, 08/27/03 17:33:04 EDT

z: zzishizilit the sound hot iron quenching in a slack tub.
habu - Wednesday, 08/27/03 21:39:30 EDT

Standard heavy forging technique (which also works on small stock) is to fuller the shoulder line nice and crisp with a small radius fuller (ALL Forged shoulders should have a radius or fillet). Then forge the remainder as you would normally.

This is called "blocking" and it also isolates the mass on the end of the bar so it stays hot longer.
- guru - Wednesday, 08/27/03 22:06:41 EDT

Smiths Alphabet:
I've been working on the same for a pitorial glossary of tools. The problem is there are too many good basic tools for some letters. . Bellows, Blower, Ball pien, Bench..

Z is easy if you use forign languages like Dutch which uses lots of Z'z. A swage block is a zaalblokken and a set hammer is a zethamer.

Then there is always Zinc.

- guru - Wednesday, 08/27/03 22:16:05 EDT

Z words: Zapped, what you get when your tools aren't grounded.

Zorched, how your face is if you look into your gasser while you light it.

Zero, how much work you can do on the day that doesn't end in Y (tomorrow).

Zerk, a popular type of grease fitting.

More if I think of some...

Best of luck with the book.
- T. Gold - Wednesday, 08/27/03 22:27:20 EDT

Post drill parts: Is there anywhere or any way to find a shaft for an old Silver Mfg. Co. drill press (Advance #13)? I had mine apart to repair and the box the drill shaft was in was stolen. Any help is appreciated. Thanks.
Ronnie - Thursday, 08/28/03 00:47:27 EDT

demo: for those of us incomps, was there actually a iforge demo last night?
dragon-boy - Thursday, 08/28/03 09:43:52 EDT


Sadly, you are probably out of luck. No one manufactures these drill presses anymore, so finding a replacement shaft is probably impossible.
Paw Paw - Thursday, 08/28/03 10:03:32 EDT

Adam's shoulders: Adam,
To be honest, I just do it. I will have to play and see if I can analyze what it is I am doing.... And this is why everyone should try teaching once in a while, as we get complacent about what we are doing and often times never really understand how we di it, and there by never allow ourselves to expand or grow in knowledge or skills
Ralph - Thursday, 08/28/03 10:53:07 EDT

Hanley Farm: And Ralph that little jewel is good for a lot more as well. I've been horsing around with that using it to replace clapper dies and stuff. It has some potential for putting a groove along the edge of square stock since it will support more length under the tool. I also like irnsgn tools as well very nicely done. All that said, Pac Man still lives, even thrives!
Mills - Thursday, 08/28/03 11:09:48 EDT

rust pos: Okay folks. Last night I was working on a project for a lady I work with. the junk she wanted fixed was so rusted through that when I heated it up the stuff started cracling and split at the old welds, is there really any use in trying to fix this or does it just need to be trashed? cann I remove that much corrosion? the metal seems to be 3/4 rust!
dragon-boy - Thursday, 08/28/03 13:01:05 EDT

shoulders: Ralph - yes teaching forces you to think clearly about what you are doing. I think I will just practice and see what I can do. It can't hurt to improve my hammer skill.

I came across some scrap 1.5" sq bar with a 3/8" groove milled in the center of one face. Perfect for an irnsrg type fuller tool

Till now I have been using a small butcher to block off the shoulders before forging the tenon.
adam - Thursday, 08/28/03 13:05:56 EDT

There comes a time when the only option is no longer repair, but has become replace. I can't say for sure without inspection, but it sounds to me as if that piece has reached that point.
Paw Paw - Thursday, 08/28/03 17:53:56 EDT

Hanley Farm: Mills,
Funny you should say that... as Martin ( the one who was showing off his tool....errrr I mean .... nevermind) Also had various dies for it. Was using it to put decrotive tops on hand made rivits etc...
Ralph - Thursday, 08/28/03 18:04:07 EDT

Ralph: Where, exactly, is the article on Hanley Farm with the pictures of the tool? I can't find it.
vicopper - Thursday, 08/28/03 19:10:44 EDT

tempering meatal: canany one tell me how to temper a meatal chipping hammer that I made.
- matt - Thursday, 08/28/03 19:36:03 EDT


Read the Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) about heat treating.
Paw Paw - Thursday, 08/28/03 19:44:05 EDT

Matt: Matt tempering a chipping hammer depends *totally* on what alloy you used and how you hardened it; neither one of which you told us. (sort of like asking us where the nearest ATM is without telling us where you are!)

You didn't mention what type of equipment you have, instructions are very different between "heat to clear red and quench in oil then temper to peacock" and "Heat in furnace to 1200 degF for 1 hour then ramp up to 1375, hold for 15 min, quench in a fast oil warmed to 250 deg then temper to 400 deg F for 1 hour let cool to ambient then repeat the tempering 2 more times followed by a cyrogenic quench" (not meant to be equivalent or even desirable methods BTW)

If you don't know the alloy we can suggest some general tests to get an idea of a general heat treat regime; but most of the tests are destructive, do you have more of the same stuff to test?

Or you can do as Paw Paw suggested.

- Thomas Powers - Thursday, 08/28/03 21:55:36 EDT

rusty p.o.s.: Thank you for the consolation. when I took a sample of the remains of said deceased piece of crap to show the fair maiden, she completely understood the predicament. her oppinion was that she would like something new to replace the old object. She said," oh just feel free to use the scrap metal for another project." I just kinda chuckeld and thanked her for her time.
dragon-boy - Friday, 08/29/03 08:53:23 EDT

Hanley Farm: vicopper,
It is in the NEWS area Volume 27 starting page 7.
The actual tool picture is on page 8.
Ralph - Friday, 08/29/03 09:03:20 EDT

Peter Wright anvil for sale: I have a Peter Wright anvil that I want to sell. If you are interested, I have pics available. Anvil measures 11.5" tall, 24" from tip to heel, top is 4.5" wide.
- Marie - Friday, 08/29/03 10:43:55 EDT

Ralph: Thank you, sir.
vicopper - Friday, 08/29/03 11:26:09 EDT

anvil: Two questions: 1) where are you, 2)how heavey is the anvil?
dragon-boy - Friday, 08/29/03 13:12:40 EDT

Another Z word: zygo: a combining form meaning yoke, articulation, pair, as in zygodactyl

Caleb Ramsby
Caleb Ramsby - Friday, 08/29/03 17:18:01 EDT

SIR!!!!!!!: Well as PPW would say, My parents were married... (grin)
BTW for anyone who is interested, my youngest just went off and is now in basic training with the USMC.
Ralph - Saturday, 08/30/03 08:46:48 EDT


To each other? (grin)
Paw Paw - Saturday, 08/30/03 09:23:26 EDT

HUA, Ralph. Glad to know there are still those raised in the US taking up the banner.
Mills - Saturday, 08/30/03 09:46:34 EDT

marrige: Now PawPaw that was just mean.... I always assumes they were... but since they are not now, perhaps I am a Sir....
Ralph - Saturday, 08/30/03 11:54:47 EDT

Honor: Mills, I agree. Now I can not thing of where on earth my boy got the idea if the USMC...... but it is still service...

Actually I am glad he chose the Corps as I think it is what he needs. We will see in time.

But right now I am one proud papa....
Ralph - Saturday, 08/30/03 11:56:49 EDT

LOL. Gotcha!

If I had not been able to get what I wanted from the Army, I would have wanted Recon Marine. Good outfit, proud and nasty.

Believe it or not, even with all the kidding that all veterans do, I get along better with Marines than I do with conventional army troops.

Something about a "can do" attitude, I guess.
Paw Paw - Saturday, 08/30/03 13:25:38 EDT

Differences in the military: The way to best describe the differences in the 4 Branches, well 3 and the civilians in the Blue, Is illustrated as follows:
Ask the Navy to secure a building, they will turn off the lights and lock the door.
Ask the Army the same and they will post a guard and check ID.
The Marines will attack behind a rolling barrage, then install concertina wire and crew served weapons at each entrance.

The Air Force? They'll get a 4 yr lease with an option to buy.
Mills - Saturday, 08/30/03 19:50:43 EDT


You're bad! (LOL)
Paw Paw - Saturday, 08/30/03 20:37:58 EDT

Anneal: I have access to H12. How do you anneal it?
TimHarvey - Saturday, 08/30/03 23:01:15 EDT

H12 Anneal: Try this:
- habu - Sunday, 08/31/03 01:54:21 EDT

Microwave Smelting: Microwave smelting is not only something that can be done around the house. Many large foundry works use them. They are just called electric arc furnaces, and are a heck of alot bigger.

Sorry I haven't chimed in for a while. Been quite busy.
- 15yearsmith - Sunday, 08/31/03 03:49:02 EDT

Anneal: Thanks Habu
- Tim Harvey - Sunday, 08/31/03 16:45:52 EDT

Diamonds from the micowave: fun with microwaves and peanut butter.....

but really:
- habu - Sunday, 08/31/03 19:27:22 EDT

Microwave VS Electric Arc Furnace: 15yearsmith, an electric arc furnace and a microwave operate on a totally different principles. The microwave emits a radio-frequency electromagnetic wave that is absorbed or reflected by the target. If it is absorbed, the HF EM pulse excites the atoms in the target material creating heat. An electric arc furnace uses two or three very large carbon electrodes that are pushed into a load of scrap. A HUGE amount of electricity is put through the electrodes and passed through the scrap. The resistance to the flow of the electric current melts the scrap. You may be thinking of an induction furnace that has a water-cooled coil around the melt vessel. When alternating current is passed through the coil, it creates an electormagnetic field inside the coii (in the vessel). This alternating EMF induces an electric current to flow in the scrap charge. The resistance of the load creates the heat to melt it.
quenchcrack - Monday, 09/01/03 14:46:36 EDT

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