Some tools to drool over.  Image (c) 1998 Jock Dempsey.  Click for enlargement. WELCOME to the anvilfire!
Virtual Hammer-In!

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Our chat, the (Slack-Tub Pub), is immediate but the record of it is temporary. DO NOT post permanent messages there. We refresh the "log" every 24 hours now and your message will be lost.

The Guru's Den is where I and several others try to answer ALL your blacksmithing and metalworking questions to us.

J. Dempsey  <webmaster> Rev. 7/98, 3/99, 5/2k, 6/2k, Friday, 04/06/01 16:43:25 GMT

WELCOME! To the NEW Virtual Hammer-In! We now has a new look and smoother operation!

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J. Dempsey  <webmaster> - Friday, 04/06-26/01

Servers and More:: 90% of all web servers on the WWW are UNIX boxes. The other 10% are Windirt machines. Most of these are individuals servers or small businesses BUT because it SEEMS like a good idea a lot of municipalities use them too. . .

The problem is that all it takes is one kid with a farm of 100 commandered PC's using a worm to start a DoS attack on ANY other server. This could be AOL, it could be your local fire department or E-911 dispatch center. Currently there is a method to filter these attacks. However, the new versions of Windows are all coming with web server software that defeat these filters. All thanks to Mr. Bill.

OE and other mail clients have a PREVIEW feature. These make a small view of the document. They open the document to do it and poof, you are infected. This is the default setting on MS OE. I don't know about the others. Once infected there are other security problems. The ability for an unauthorized user (a program) to automaticaly send mail is a big one.

But you are correct. If the attachment is not opened you cannot be infected (with SIRCAM). The mail itself is plain text and is not in a situation to launch something. In the OLD days all e-mail was nothing but plain text. It was completely safe. However, if they continue to integrate the browser which DOES launch programs then all bets are off.

Yeah, I've HAD IT with this discussion too. But I am still getting copies of SIRCAM on an hourly basis.

Mills, there are lots of computer discussion groups. If you want to setup a Linux box I'm told that because they do not use so much of the computer resources in overhead an old PC is pretty spiffy running it.
  - guru - Wednesday, 08/01/01 04:37:34 GMT

guru and Tony: It's true that you are safe if you don't open the attachement. BUT the default for Outlook Express is to "preview" all attachments. If your machine is set to preview the attachments, the machine will open them before you ever see them. BOOM! Welcome to the world of virii!
  Paw Paw Wilson - Wednesday, 08/01/01 12:47:12 GMT

Looking for used files/rasps: I'm an amateur knifemaker looking for scrap mill files or rasps to use for blade material. Once in a while I get lucky and find a pile of rusty files at a yard sale, but I need a more steady source--especially for the fat ones. I know that farriers use nice big files for cleaning up hoofs, but I need a line on where the used ones go. Any ideas?
  Mark R - Wednesday, 08/01/01 18:03:06 GMT

Most farriers (that I know) either throw them away or make rasp asps (snakes) out of them. Check in the phone book and call around to find out. You may luck out
  Paw Paw Wilson - Wednesday, 08/01/01 18:42:10 GMT

Viruses, Hacking and More: Well I thought it was about time for me to put my 5 cents + TAX worth

On the subject of Gates and the security issues
with MS Products, its all very well being anti MS and saying its insecure but in
actual fact its no less secure that most other OS's.I use Linux, FeeBSD and
a few other unix based system and boy, from the default installation you have
never seen so many security holes, it takes a good 2 days to secure one of these
systems and on top of that you have to be wary that every application running on
that system also has the potential for a back door as most of them are written
by hackers (using the old context of the word).
The security issues with MS products are a little
more obvious because more people try and exploit the system then the media make
a big noise about it, they don't tell you that you can purchase a simple
firewall program off the net that will secure almost all of the holes in the MS
Most viruses and Trojans are written to infect MS
products not because its an anti MS statement but because there are more people
using an MS based system that any other.What would be the point of writing a
virus or Trojan that would not infect the majority of computers?.
With the re-emergence of new OS's like Linux there
are new viruses coming out that will also infect these systems and I'm sure we
have only just seen the beginning of these types of Virus and
I often hear the Netscape VS Internet Explorer
argument and the Outlook Express bashing argument, do you know that you can
change one setting on outlook express to secure it!.Its Personal Preference,
NS has its problems also just not many of them are published. For those who are
technically minded you would be amazed what you can do with a little bit of Java
Script and using the Netscape Push command, all I'm going to say is that it
would be possible to install a virus directly on a computer using this
Ever wonder where many of these viruses
originate and how virus protection companies manage to act so fast in releasing
the patch or fix for some of these viruses, ok you could say that they get sent
copies of infected files but I would have to argue that to do thins you would
first have to know you were infected, some subtle viruses in the wild are not
that obvious yet still the virus companies manage to create an up to date fix
for them, I often wonder if they don't have people within their organizations
that actually create these viruses in order to sell their product.
My rule of thumb is NEVER keep anything on your
computer that you don't mind loosing, Always be prepared to Erase and Reinstall
at the drop of a hat.
Oops that was supposed to be "Never
accept attachments from strangers".
Now for some really scary facts about
Did you know that it is possible to use some pretty
simple amateur radio equipment to snoop on somebody's computer without
connecting to it!.
Method 1.    Use a
directional Arial to receive the Horizontal and Vertical Signals coming from the

monitor then feed them into another monitor, presto
can now see what is on that computer screen, for that fact you can do the same
to TV's.
Method 2.    The
Keyboard is a wonderful device, it is the users interface to the digital world,
on the down side the keyboard has a clock frequency of
11khz to 14khz and uses a serial style communications line to talk with the
computer, it is possible to receive this information using
antenna, decode it then play it into a keyboard interface.. Presto you can see
what the person is typing.
Method 4.    Data
Storage is a must for anyone, you need to store your information somehow, BUT
when you do again you are adding to the pool
radio interference produced by your computer, it would be possible for someone
to LISTEN to you Hard Drive and decode the information
stored and retrieved. Not a practical method but still possible.
Ok, I hear you ask.. Why would someone go to
the lengths to do this, Well the same can be asked about why someone would spend
endless hours creating and designing viruses and Trojans, is the answer simply
"Because they Can".
Next time you go to the ATM or Eftpos machine and
swipe your card, think about the electrical impulses read from the magnetic
strip on your card, then think of the keypad you are typing your pin number
into, Yes the same frequency is used in this keypad as is used in your
Now here's another little fact, The Computer Lockup from 100 Paces..
It was conceived some time back that it would be possible to remotely
lockup a computer system without even connecting to it, I had envisioned a
similar system years prior to hearing about someone experimenting and
demonstrating the method at a computer conference some years back, My thoughts
were that with our reliance on computers this puts us in a very sticky
predicament. I was not going to go past the theory as the concern for me was the
"What If" and envisioning a bystanders pace maker packing up while watching the
The concept is very simple, infant a little to simple. For those who
remember he old Model T Ford and the Ford Coil, you take one of these and make a
few minor alterations so you can increase and decrease the frequency, you then
get a sheet of card board and coat it in tinfoil, bed the cardboard so it forma
a U and in the focal point place a spark plug from a car.
Point the device in the general direction of the computer (and the original
experiment was 25feet away) then ramp up the spark frequency.. Test the computer
and at some stage it will lock up completely. If you are lucky you will be able
to reboot, but this could cause permanent damage to the computer and any
surrounding electronic equipment.
So how many times a day does your computer lockup?
Feeling a little Paranoid yet?.

  Kiwi NZ - Wednesday, 08/01/01 23:47:19 GMT

Virus??: Hi Guys,
I don't post often but I read alot here. Here's a weird one for you. With all the talk about viruses, I updated my McAfee file two days ago. After transferring the new data I was informed My Windows program had been damaged and would no longer operate. Had to reboot the whole hard drive and lost all files. (Electronic type, not hand files). Seems kind of strange that when I tried to save myself some trouble I jumped right into the middle of the fire. Moral: careful what you download. Catch you later. Larry
  Larry - Thursday, 08/02/01 01:12:52 GMT

Paranoid?: Kiwi, Maybe a little. Install a virus directly? Please don't tell us how! Grin. But I do follow the idea that there is nothing on the computer that I can't replace if I lose.

When I get attachments in OE, I will only see them in the preview window if they are .jpg's. I suspect that my computer vendor set the OE settings, but I can't find where to set that. I really am ignorant on that stuff. Can you give us the keystrokes for OE secuity stuff? I know at least one other here that wants that info. I was going to call the computer vendor or contact MS and will do that if you prefer.

Does Bill Gates or any of the other OS people own stock in Mcafee or Norton??

I hope your legal situation has improved and that you are having fun with your little one.
  Tony - Thursday, 08/02/01 16:57:41 GMT

Just wondering: I was wondering if there's any blacksmiths in the greater puget sound area in need of an apprentice/lacky. The job market around here is looking bad :( I'd prefer to find some form of work that I enjoy and am actualy interested in.

As far as all the virus stuff goes the whole "method" of viruses is to get people to run them without knowing what they're doing. If it's not from someone I know and it has an attachment it goes in the trash. BTW, linux has some wonderfull mail filters that'll sift out spam and such before you ever see it.
  phosphers - Thursday, 08/02/01 22:57:54 GMT

OE Security: Actually the little culprit that causes most of the OE security problems with OE and Windows 98 can be found under the controll panel.
I will see if I can write a simple document showing how to dissable this with easy to understand steps.
Until then email me direct and I will talk you through the process.
  Kiwi NZ - Friday, 08/03/01 01:06:02 GMT

Puget Sound: phosphers, Try the Northwest Blacksmiths Association
  - guru - Friday, 08/03/01 05:54:36 GMT

Archives w/ Search: The archives button on this page now loads the new archives page with search. Read the suggested methods of searching as some small things help focus the search a lot.
  - guru - Friday, 08/03/01 14:08:14 GMT

Welcome you!: Welcome you to visit our website,
Here you can find an excellent new type hammer.
Excellent New Type Hammers
  Jack - Saturday, 08/04/01 08:32:10 GMT

I have a friend who is a florist/caterer. She is looking for someone to fabricate some wedding aisle torches from metal... some nice scrollwork around a hurricane type globe which will hold a candle. They will be pole mounted and stuck in the ground on either side of an aisle for the bride to walk between.
If anyone is interested in making these, please contact me directly and I will put you in touch with her. We are in the birmingham, Al area..


john niolon
  john niolon - Saturday, 08/04/01 17:01:31 GMT

courses: i am wondering if anyone has any info on some beginner courses, I am in S. Jersey so far the closest is Ontario. Thanks Jeff
  jeff moore - Sunday, 08/05/01 00:44:12 GMT

There are two schools with blacksmithing courses in North Carolina. Penland School of Crafts, and John C. Campbell Folk School.
  Paw+Paw+Wilson - Sunday, 08/05/01 02:37:28 GMT

"Different Info": Thats good info Kiwi.. Makes you think alittle about modern day tech toys...
  Barney - Sunday, 08/05/01 14:31:06 GMT

Kiwi's Post:
One point Kiwi makes is very important. (Well, they're ALL important, but one strikes me as more important)

I never keep any data on my computers. All data is stored on removable media. Either ZIP disks or CD's (now. For years it was 5 1/4" and then 3 1/2" floppies.)

I keep programs only on the computers. After the major hard drive failure early this year, I replaced the computers. They needed upgrading anyway. When I did, I also picked up Peter Norton's Ghost program. I now have a CD library of both machines basic set up. Would not take long to erase and restore.
  Paw+Paw+Wilson - Sunday, 08/05/01 15:56:14 GMT

Newbie: I was wondering if anyone in the Nothern Utah, Southern Idaho area had an anvil they wanted to sell. I just built my first BrakeDrum forge(thanks Guru for the plans) and need something to pound on. I had heard that Granite surface plates will work, and have an old one lying around, but that just makes me cringe. Any Ideas?
  Bond, James Bond - Sunday, 08/05/01 17:14:40 GMT

Kiwi re computer trashing: Kiwi San, The infernal machine that destroys computers sounds like a "Marx" generator to me. That little number can permanently destroy all the electronic devices within a radius of dozens of city blocks, or a whole city if it's big enough and detonated high enough. Details are available in the science literature. I better quit this subject before the military start vetting our systems. If they aren't already.. regards. Slag.

  slag - Sunday, 08/05/01 17:39:13 GMT

Can you imagine a hang glider over NYC at 10,000 ft. with a hundred pound unit? Don't EVEN think about it!
  Paw Paw Wilson - Sunday, 08/05/01 18:00:34 GMT

Granite Surface Plate: Ouch Owww NO NO NO NO. . . . If its a precision plate in reasonable condition you are BOUND to be able to find someone that will trade for it. .

Granite works for forging brass and bronze but tends to break down or spall when forging steel.

See my post on the guru page about RR-Rail anvils.
  - guru - Sunday, 08/05/01 21:34:56 GMT

Computer Spying: Sometimes you don't even need to try. My old 286-10 PC had a rather strange bit of electromagnetic leakage. Anytime it was in graphics mode you saw the ghost of the image on our television in another building 200 feet away. It interfered with one of the major network signals.

It wouldn't take much of an electronic genious to make a reciever that tuned to your stray transmissions and see everything that you see on your screen. Mail, passwords, porno. . .

VIRUS NEWS: Well, its been almost a full day since I recieved a mail from someone with SIRCAM. A couple days ago it was 40 a day and before that 100! I sent mail to all of them including links to an anti virus site. Only ONE sent me an acknoledgement or thank you.

Now the ones sending repeat mail over and over that were aparently setup on spamming networks. . . well, We managed to shut down at least four.

JPEGS and VIRUSes: Tony if your system previews graphics then you might as well be sleeping with Typhoid Mary. Computer viruses are just like organic ones. If you have AIDS do YOU look any different? No, but inside you have a killer virus hiding. Viruses INFECT files. Once opened the virus code is also run. One problem with windows is you can name an EXE, JPG and windows will try to open it. Once it sees the EXE header in the code it executes the exe. . .

Sorry I cannot help we the OE config. I remove it immediately after any Windows install.
  - guru - Sunday, 08/05/01 22:20:13 GMT

Need Bandsaw tires for old DURO bandsaw: I have an old DURO brand bandsaw I need new tires for. The wheel diameter without any tire is 15 1/2 ". The width of the tire should be 1". I would appreciate it if you could find me a source for these tires.

  Ken - Monday, 08/06/01 11:10:24 GMT


Although I haven't been able to get oan the site.
  Paw+Paw+Wilson - Monday, 08/06/01 12:33:07 GMT

Viruses and tires: Viruses, ahhhh, Typhoid Mary! I see I need to learn a bit more. Kiwi, I'll look at control panel and see if I can figure it out. If not, and in any case, I appreciate your offer!

When we were working in Mexico, I had a friend who would eat anything and everything. He contracted Typhoid. Nearly died with a 106 F fever. My rule in a foreign country is if it's not real hot when I get it, or it's not in a bottle(with the cap on), I don't put it in me.

Bandsaw tires: Ken, they are available from many sources. Try Menominee Saw and supply in Menominee Michigan. 1.800.582.0470 What I have done with great success is to make a big rubber band from an old inner tube or truck rim liner and glue it on the bandsaw wheel with contact cement. Truck and tractor inner tubes are thick. Earthmoving equipment inner tubes are REALLY thick. Then grind the tire true by spinning the wheel and using an angle grinder or belt sander held stationary against the spinning wheel. Remember to grind a slight crown on the tire. If you can only find thin tubes, you can glue one on top of the other for double thickness.
  Tony - Monday, 08/06/01 12:39:38 GMT

Tires again: Ken, As I'm cutting gaskets this mornig, another thought comes to mind. You could get rubber sheet gasket material, cut what you need and make a tapered lap joint in the tire. Lap joints are not optimal in my opinion, but I know they can work. The advantage of the sheet stock is uniform thickness. Grinding true will be less of an issue. And if you've ever glued a round tire on with contact cement, you know that they can stretch thin in some places and bunch up thick in others. If you look hard, you can get urethane sheet stock. I'd look for 70 to 90 durometer.
  Tony - Monday, 08/06/01 13:11:26 GMT

Good answers, better than mine. Thanks for chiming in!
  Paw Paw Wilson - Monday, 08/06/01 13:16:07 GMT

Paw Paw: Thanks Paw Paw. Complimentary, maybe not better I'd say. Being quite bone headed, I never thought to contact the manufacturer. Grin. Probably more expedient. You had posted yours while I was writing mine between interruptions.
  Tony - Monday, 08/06/01 19:28:24 GMT

But your route is probably cheaper.
  Paw Paw Wilson - Monday, 08/06/01 20:01:35 GMT

Catalog reprint: Rob Whitehurst and Ed Lancaster have conspired to and actually reprinted a Canedy Otto catalog of about 1900. Nicely done on 24lb stock with a 80lb double coated Perfect Bind cover. This 188 page catalog lists for $19.95 abd is available to anvilfire members for $15.95 plus $3.00 S&H in the USA. E-mail Ed for a picture
  Ed Lancaster - Tuesday, 08/07/01 04:41:59 GMT

Pump forges: The Canedy Otto Catalog has parts breakdowns on the forges and post drill presses. Nice detail too.
  Ed Lancaster - Tuesday, 08/07/01 04:43:32 GMT

WANTED TO BUY: Needed for new project coming up: tire bender or ring roller
it need not be in perfect condition, but I would prefer one with all the parts
my home page
  Mark Parkinson - Tuesday, 08/07/01 11:46:04 GMT

Security and PC's: As Paw Paw states, its a great idea to backup your data, Ghost is one application that can mirror your whole hard drive, another is one that i use called "Drive Image". I had a Hard Drive crash on me this morning, took me an hour to get it replaced (under warranty) then 9 minutes to restore the image I took of my machine (when it worked).

Slag: Yes very similar to a "Marx" but directional :)
  Kiwi NZ - Tuesday, 08/07/01 11:50:45 GMT

Marx generator, ring roller: Kiwi and Slag: I tried to invent such a thing when I was in college in order to get the guys in the next dorm to turn down their # at at $4# at stereos after 3 in the morning, but couldn't find any info on it at the time. I figured out how to make a weak EMP generator, but it was neither directional or powerful enough to do anything but make a "click" noise on a phone line. For some reason, that info was classified at the time! (grin)

Mark: how big a ring roller capacity do you need? H. Freight has a cheapie that will take up to 3/16 x 1 flat stock, or 1/4 round. Tiny playtoy, I know, but cheap.
  Alan-L - Tuesday, 08/07/01 15:00:05 GMT

Take a look at the following URL:
  Paw Paw Wilson - Tuesday, 08/07/01 17:10:23 GMT

ring roller: Alan-L:
thanks but H Freight will NOT ship to Canada...unless you pay the price of the equipment X2 they should carry a gun if their gonna rip you off!
  Mark Parkinson - Tuesday, 08/07/01 18:36:46 GMT

Generator, HF: Paw-Paw, thanks! now I'll know how to lay it out. At the time I was thinking of something like an exploding-wire pulse generator, since that's what the military used to test "hardened" electrical systems to resist the pulse from a nuclear blast. I guess an air spark gap would work...Now for directional capability. Hey, would that work on cell phones? I'd love to turn those off for folks so they could get back to driving! (note to feds: this is a joke. no need to update the file...)

Mark: I knew they were crooks in that they sell questionably made stuff from china for far more than what it's worth, but I didn't know that about shipping to Canada.
  Alan-L - Tuesday, 08/07/01 21:17:09 GMT

A "dish" of aluminum foil with the spark gap at the focal point should provide some directional capability. (grin)

Harbor Freight was originally named Harbor Freight Salvage. I always wondered which freighter they were "salvaging" from
  Paw Paw Wilson - Tuesday, 08/07/01 21:50:18 GMT

The FCC wants a word with you...: I had planned a nice parabolic dish top-surface aluminized reflector thingy, since the physics department had mirror-silvering facilities (didn't want to toast my own stereo, nobody had computers yet). But then I got dropped from the program because second-year calculus and I had a falling out. I'll have to get an old Ford coil from my dad (we have a '24 model-T with some spares) and see what I can rig up..

This is, of course, after I finish all the other projects I'm into up to my neck, which should be approximately 2035 A.D....
  Alan-L - Wednesday, 08/08/01 01:55:00 GMT

(grin) You too?
  Paw Paw Wilson - Wednesday, 08/08/01 02:03:12 GMT

SIRCAM Virus: Well, I'm down to ONE hit a day. However they have each been from someone I don't know that is apparently on a network. Which means they probably work in the same office as some of you guys. With SIRCAM, YOU don't have to be the one to open the attachment. Anyone on your school, business office or home network can open SIRCAM and it uses everyone's OE address books. . .

I don't know if it infects the other machines but I think it did in Paw-Paw's case.

The infamous CODE-RED virus only effects Microsoft servers so it should have been a big non-issue. But since is launched a DoS attack on The Presidents White House web site it made big news. While it was in fact was a no-show it has gotten the National News attention while SIRCAM (with the help of Bill Gates) has cost the global economy billions in wasted time.
  - guru - Wednesday, 08/08/01 15:46:09 GMT

Band Saw Tires: I don't suggest making your own. A variety of outfits sell them such as McMaster-Carr as do many of the wood working suppliers. You can also go to a rubber belt supplier and have them make one for you. They will want a lot of information but they know how and can Vulcanize the joint. Be sure to but the angled "skive" of the joint so it trails as it rotates.

Dressing the tires as Tony suggested makes a huge difference in the performance of your band saw. The wheel doesn't vibrate and the blade runs true. After dressing the wheels check the alignment of the wheels in all directions. Then put on a blade and tension it as it runs. Be sure the cutting guides are backed off and do not touch the blade.

It SHOULD track on the crown of the tires and with little or no wobble (unless it has a crooked weld). Then carefully adjust the guides to slightly contact the blade (while stationary. After adjusting the guides raise the upper guide assembly and check the table and blade right to left with a good square. Adjust the table mounting so that the blade is absolutely square to the table.

This should be done at least once a year or more often if you use your saw a lot. A band saw in good adjustment is a joy to use. One with very slight misadjustments can be a canterous blade breaking monster.

Speaking of Bandswaw Tires. Mother Earth news used to have plans for home built bandsaws (JYBS) using automotive wheels with the inflated tires on the wheels! A good bald tire has a wonderful crown! The only home built bandsaw I have seen was mostly made of wood. It had two 1927 Chevrolet wood spoke wheels with cotton belting for tires. The old wheels had a teal blue paint job with red pinstriping. The rest of the machine was made of mortise and tennon heartwood pine. The blade guides were hardwood blocks.

This old saw was used by the fellow that built it to make the last set of new wood gear teeth in our old

Sadly, a year after seeing this wonderful machine and missing the oportunity to photograph it, the shop it was in burned down. Life is short. Don't miss oportunities.
  - guru - Wednesday, 08/08/01 16:11:45 GMT

Yes, it can cross infect the network. It came in on my machine, and infected Sheri's machine. She never got it in email, but was infected. I didn't realize what it was, (in SPITE of Jim Carother's timely warning! Bullheaded me!) and opened the attachment.

Trend Micro ( saved my butt!
  Paw Paw Wilson - Wednesday, 08/08/01 17:15:17 GMT

SIRCAM: I spoke too soon. Apparently someone that got it this morning sent it to a bunch of other people. . . AND they ALL have ME on their address books!
  - guru - Wednesday, 08/08/01 18:37:56 GMT

The Sircam is rather evil in my opinion. It includes its own email utility, so you will never know if you sent it out or not. It also captures a file from your HD and uses that as the object to be viewed by the unfortunate. SO if a friend was expecting you to send something for them to look at, this is a bad virus..... It happened to my wife. AN artisit friend got it from us as he was expecting some thing...
  Ralph - Thursday, 08/09/01 15:20:05 GMT

Basically that's what happened to me.
  Paw Paw Wilson - Thursday, 08/09/01 16:31:17 GMT

EMP: Alan-L, These are fun but very dangerous, Imagine setting one off ner someone who has either a pace maker ot a metal pin in their body.. A good EMP unit should produce something like 2000volts per mm, enough to fry any unprotected circut.

They are simple to build using Q'Switched 400v Capacitors, charge em up in series then let em loose in paralell throug a hevy duty coil with a "ALUMINUM" reflective dish, Aluminum reflects electro magnetic discharge but gets hot while doing it.

A unit like the one above will rip the cones out of a set of speakers at a range of 5 meters, BUT the procautions you need to take before letting one off is stagering.

I had earlier thought of using an EMP type system to repetitivley fire a chunk of steel, this was the concept behind an earlier power hammer i discussed with Jock.

Hm, theres an idea, New way to upset the heads for bolts, build a liniar accelerator, place stock with red hot end in the chaimber and fire it at the anvil mounted on the wall.
You would neeed to keep the rear of the bolt stock cool otherwise it would not be magnetic and would not work

Hmm, I had better shut up about now, I was hopin to come to the US at some stage, But they may think of me as a threat and not let me in :)
  Kiwi NZ - Thursday, 08/09/01 21:26:14 GMT

SIRCAM and SECURITY: I mentioned earlier that I had gotten someone's tax returns as a SIRCAM attachment. Well, I have also gotten two legal briefs and a file named "confidential_patent_submision". Plus dozens of spread sheets including "business_plan.xml" and "merger.xml" both from corporate mucketitymucks. Also a bunch of ZIP files labled

The fact IS these files are still readable and will load. You just have to be willing to put up with a SICAM infection which, if you don't use the OE or the latest and greatest products from others that are on the Microshaft stupidity bandwagon. . Then it is not difficult to clean up after SIRCAM.

The BIG problem is that many of these are gigantic files that clog my mail so I can't use it. Besides sending out nice "you are infected" notes and cleaning up my inbox I also have to WAIT for these hideous files to download. . .

Out of the HUNDREDS of warnings I have sent out to the infected I have yet to get another thankyou. . So you can see why I am P.O.ed

The newest "delivery" was from a "web developer". . . someone that should REALLY know better.
  - guru - Friday, 08/10/01 03:27:58 GMT

Trip Hammers for Sale: I have several hammers for sale. All but one are Little Giants. The one may be a Star brand. There are no markings. It looks to be a 20 to 25 lb. hammer. It has a leaf spring and is in very good condition. I have it priced at $950 without motor. The little Giants are as follows:
25 lb. Late Style, Complete rebuild, with 1hp motor $2200.00.
50 lb. Early Style, Small chunk broken out of anvil but weldable, usable "as is" but needs bushings in arms and rebuild, no motor $975.00.
50 lb. Early Style, Fair condition, running, with 1 hp motor $1800.00.
50 lb. Early Style, Excellent condition, no motor $2400.00, with 2 hp motor $2800.00.
50 lb. Late Style, Recent complete rebuild, with 2 hp motor & 2 sets of dies $3600.00 (I'm currently using this hammer in my shop).
All prices are fob Alva, OK. I can probably deliver but will need to charge something for fuel and wear & tear. Thanks, Mike George, 1227 4th St., Alva, OK 73717, 580-327-5235 home, 580-829-1968 cell, jmgeorge at
  Mike George - Friday, 08/10/01 15:01:56 GMT

EMP: Kiwi: That's another reason I never made one. Don't want to cause any problems for anyone who doesn't need them.

On the other hand, I did once make a dorm building vibrate at 56 Hz, which was interesting. Turns out that was the resonant frequency of the elevator shaft next to the room I was in producing this tone, so a low volume speaker set caused the shaft to resonate when the 'vator was at the ground floor. Lots of people wandering around the halls looking worried...
  Alan-L - Friday, 08/10/01 15:05:20 GMT

treadle hammer?: I am fairly new to forging steel. I have experience in cold bending and tig welding and I am considering building one of these Valley Forge Treadle Hammers because I can't afford a power hammer. You can see it at if any one doesn't know what I am talking about. Has any one ever used one of these? If so, how are they and would it enable me to work heavier metal than by swingging a 4# sledge by hand? Would this be a good tool upgrade for a beginner such as myself? Any advice would be greatly appreciated.
  Chris - Friday, 08/10/01 19:33:15 GMT


I've used a treadle hammer a couple of times. What you are doing is changing the hammer from your hand to your foot. If you have good balance it's a viable solution to the "third hand" problem.

I've dealt with Jere on other equipment, and he is a fair and honest dealer.
  Paw Paw Wilson - Friday, 08/10/01 19:43:41 GMT

Hammer: Chris, If you have an air compressor, you can build a Kinyon style air hammer for close to the price of a treadle hammer, espically if you scrounge around scrap yards & flea markets, like I did. I have information & pictures of the one I built at the link below.
Mike's Air Hammer
  Mike Roth - Friday, 08/10/01 19:55:26 GMT

Hammer: Chris, I forgot to mention, it depends on your application wheather(sp?) you need an air hammer or treadle hammer. Air hammers are like a mechanical hammer & you can use some tooling with them. Treadle hammers are very good for using tooling & not so good for drawing, but still better than by hand, sometimes!
Emerald Isle Forge
  Mike Roth - Friday, 08/10/01 19:59:03 GMT

Paw Paw : Thanks for the input. Your answer is one of the benefits I assumed just observing the illustration. My other criteria in deciding on the treadle hammer is if the 60# hammer recommended will provide enough force to effectively taper and/or draw 1-1/2" bar, or at least save me 1/2 the energy I use by pounding by hand. Can you work larger diameter stock with one of those than by pounding with your arm?
  Chris - Friday, 08/10/01 21:19:20 GMT

mike: that hammer you built looks like the ideal way to go if a guy could build that as economically as you say you have. What is the heaviest stock you have worked in that thing? I am using some fairly heavy line weights in my designs, and as everyone knows in steel work, that means physical weight as well. I just can't achieve in 3 dimensions what I have designed on paper without some kind of mechanical advantage. I definately will look further into my ability to assemble one such as yours. Thanks for the input. Nice shop by the way.
  Chris - Friday, 08/10/01 21:33:41 GMT

You can do nice tooling with a treadle hammer, but you can do heavier work with an air hammer. Mike is giving you the straight dope. I'm planning on an air hammer, rather than a treadle hammer, my balance isn't good enough any more for me to stand on one foot, pound with the other foot, maneuver read hot steel with my left hand and a tool with my right hand. I never could dance worth a dam* anyway! (grin)
  Paw Paw Wilson - Friday, 08/10/01 21:50:40 GMT

Chris: I lucked out on most of the parts for my hammer, the cylinder was $5 from the local flea market, the I beam was free from work & the rest of the steel, except the guides, was from the scrapyard. Had to buy the valves new, though. I think the biggest I've done so far on there is 3/4", but I'm sure it would do OK on 1.5" or so. not as nice as a 150#er though!(that's on my project list, unless I can find a big bradley or fairbanks for cheap!). Thanks about my shop, it's OK for now, just WAY too small, it's busting at the seams now!
  Mike Roth - Saturday, 08/11/01 02:28:44 GMT

Treadle vs. Power: In my experience, a treadle is great for chisel work or other tooling, but will not draw at all unless you make dies for it, since the hammer-anvil interface is flat-to-flat. And even then, a 4 lb hand sledge will do just about the same job. I use a ten lb cross-pein sledge (briefly!!) one handed for short draws on really heavy stock until it gets small enough to use a hand hammer on. Hold it right at the head and "punch" the steel with it. I can do that for about three heats before I have to rest a while, it's hard on the ol' joints. But in that time I've moved quite a bit of steel. It's all a trade-off, without a power hammer. I'm slowly building a mechanical JYH so I won't have to do it the hard way (grin!)
  Alan-L - Saturday, 08/11/01 21:23:50 GMT

ANOTHER VIRUS: I know you guys are tired of this. . Mybe I need a new forum. . .

I've had this one sent to me three or four times in two days. A couple of the senders HAD SIR_CAM. . .

TROJAN_PE_MTX.A This backdoor Trojan infects EXE, SCR, CPL, and DLL files in the Current and Windows directory. When an infected user sends an email to an address, the Trojan sends another email to the same address with itself as an attachment. This attachment is detected as PE_MTX.A by Trend antivirus. The Trojan also installs a backdoor application in the system and prevents the infected user from accessing any antivirus vendor Web sites or sending email to specific email servers.

This one has no "body" to the message. Just an attachment from a friend.

Once you get it you can't use most on-line antiviral services too update your antivirus code.

Details PE_MTX.A
  - guru - Sunday, 08/12/01 18:45:53 GMT

KA hammer : I am looking for feedback from people who have the KA hammer and what your experience is, particularly the KA 75.
  ken braitman - Tuesday, 08/14/01 00:54:06 GMT

powerhammer experiences: My last post asked about the KA-75 hammer. I'd also be interested in "big blu" and/or other air hammer (100 lb range) experiences. Since no one around me has one, I can't experience them myself and wish for guidance in a choice.
  Ken Braitman - Tuesday, 08/14/01 11:19:04 GMT

Power Hammers: Ken, Most of the hammers on the market all have slightly different characteristics and considerable design differences.

The KA is described as a "striking hammer" It works like an air operated treadle hammer. You push the peddle it goes down, you let off it goes up. It has a dual cylinder/guide system that is very strong but is also interference. One huge advantage of the KA is how short and compact it is. We have a video slide show on the AnvilCAM page. Its not listed on the drop down menu but is on the home page. Its from the sales video for the hammer.

The Big BLU is a commercial version of the ABANA plans. Being commercialized means its generaly better than home built and you have technical and parts support. The BLU has a very deep throat which is very good for working sheet or from every angle. This also give you very good visibility. When we rated hammers a few years ago the BLU was the least expensive per pound of all the machines. The BLU has air hammer standard controls that will let you hit hard or soft and repeats.

The BULL 125# is the original design of the builder. It also has standard air hammer controls but has some added features. The new design has a heavy solid (not hollow) frame and they also have a NEW smaller hammer.

The Kuhn, imported from Germany sold by Centaur Forge is the industry standard for small self contained hammers. These run very fast but have exceptional control. There are cheap copies on the market but they are no comparison to the Kuhn. Centaur inventories several sizes as well as many specialty dies. The advantage of the self-contained hammer is that it doesn't need a seperate air compressor.

Striker carries the Chinese version of a Chambersburg or Nazel self-contained hammer. These have a heavy cast frame but are not as heavy as the original U.S. built machines. The mechanics are more like the Chambersburg than the Nazel and the control is similar. Currently they have a sale going on that makes these machines competitive with the new fabricated machines above.

All these machines are designed to do more or less the same thing. Forge hot metal using open die techniques. They all operate pretty much alike except the KA. When it comes to quality you generaly get what you pay for and it is true with these machines. The Kuhns are the most expensive but they have a tremondous reputation for durability. The only thing better is a good used Nazel.

The problem with used Nazels is that the small models like the 1B and 2B sell for more than they did NEW! Even 75 year old machines sell for 10 to 16 thousand dollars if in good condition. But that also means they do not depreciate much.

One word of warning. All the manufactures (our advertisers) play down the fact that you need a bigger air compressor than they recommend. Yes, their machines WILL run on a $500 department store air compressor. But you need bigger.

  - guru - Tuesday, 08/14/01 19:11:16 GMT

hammers: Thanks for the most excellent review of hammers. It does help me immensely in my selection.
  ken braitman - Wednesday, 08/15/01 09:44:05 GMT

Idler pulley for Power Hammer?: I'm trying to decide which is the best clutch design for a mechanical powerhammer I'm trying to build myself. I'm leaning towards using an idler pulley operated by a foot pedal to engage the hammer, but some people I've talked to say that there is too much wear caused by the belt rubbing on the pulleys.. and also too much friction.. What would you recommend? Thanks for the help!
- Loren
  Loren P - Wednesday, 08/15/01 17:17:19 GMT

work/dance, idler: Mills, I hear ya (from the guru page). I brought it over here since it wasn't a queastion per se.

Those that can......

I've often wondered if it's those that can't make the work a dance, are the ones who get frustrated, and become lawyers and politicians, and make it miserable for the rest of us to work and dance.

Sometimes I feel sorry for them, sometimes I want to use them for treb fodder. Mostly it's the latter.

Idler: Loren, what kind of pulley? V-belt or flat? Flat belts work good. Have for a long time. Belt type and pulley finish are important. A v-belt is designed to grab in the v groove, but it can work. A full wrap v- belt ( woven fabric cover on all sufaces of the belt) would be better as a clutch as opposed to a raw rubber edge belt.
  Tony - Wednesday, 08/15/01 18:39:27 GMT

Slackbelt Clutch: Loren, A slack belt clutch using a flat belt has the entire belt for clutch surface. This is usualy many times the area of the clutch facing in a cone clutch. The belt is exposed to cooling air on both sides. The cone clutch is cooled only by the iron it is married to.

Slack belt clutches are the best for continous slippage. Cone clutches and flat plate clutches like automobile clutches are not designed for continous slippage. The are designed for engage/disengage with a brief perios of slippage to soften the engagement. That is why the surface of a Little Giant clutch must be kept wet with oil.

I know people that run their Fairbanks and Bradley hammers daily with the slack belt clutches they came with. The belts last almost forever. When they need replacement it is with common belting material, not with special expensive factory parts.

V belts can be used in a slack belt clutch but they are NOT designed for it. The "V" shape is self tightening and there is very little contact area compared to a flat belt designed for the same capacity.
  - guru - Wednesday, 08/15/01 19:40:47 GMT

More about slack belt clutches: I think I'm convinced on going with a flat belt clutch, but what would be the best type of belt to use? I've seen some that were purely leather, some were leather with a core of plastic and so on. Also, most come in strips requiring me to attach the two ends myself. What would be the best choice?
- Loren
  Loren P - Wednesday, 08/15/01 21:22:21 GMT

Loren: Leather belts seem to last the best. Although the conveyer belting seems to work well too.

There are several ways to "close the loop". There is a machine that crimps "alligator teeth" onto the ends. In my opinion, the best way would be to butt lace the two ends together. That way, if you need to tighten the belt after a period of usage, it's quick and easy to do.
  Paw Paw Wilson - Wednesday, 08/15/01 22:10:41 GMT

I think McMaster Carr sells the belting, and the stuff to make the joints with. MSC may also.
  Paw Paw Wilson - Wednesday, 08/15/01 23:26:13 GMT

My Powerhammer: I'm modeling my powerhammer after the "Rusty" powerhammer. Plans are sold by Jerry Allen but I don't want to buy the plans, and I dont think I need them. I chose that design because it looks small and simple. I don't do a ton of heavy forging, I mostly need something small I can use for drawing out. I'm going to use a flywheel to drive a leafspring arm on a fulcrum, the arm is connected to the flywheel using a connecting rod... and the arm is connected to the ram using a supplementary arm that will hinge to compensate for the difference when the ram moves up and down. I've also seen some vertical motion treadle hammers like this, with the moving parts behind the main structure of the hammer. If you've seen the treadle hammer made by "tick forge"... the hammer works on sliders and the moving arms are all in back. My hammer might look just like that one, but with a motor integrated into it. Do you have any suggestions to my choice of hammer? Its my first hammer, and I wanted something simple.
- Loren
  Loren P - Thursday, 08/16/01 15:17:36 GMT

I'll pass your question to the guru, but this subject really should be posted to the guru's page. I'm not trying to give you a bad time, and you haven't done anything wrong. It's just that I handle the relatively simple stuff, and leave the more esoteric stuff to the boss. (grin)
  Paw Paw Wilson - Thursday, 08/16/01 17:18:00 GMT

Rusty derivitive: Loren, Rusty is what is known as a "spring hammer" or "fjšderhammare" in Swedish. This is such a common design in that part of the world fjšderhammare is synonomous with "power hammer" and is often confused as such in Sweden, Finland, Norway. . .

Spring helve hammers have a peculiar dynamic and it is easy to get into trouble with the balance between horsepower, RPM, spring stiffness, ram weight and stroke. All have to be right for the machine to perform well.

Technicaly a spring hammer is a "spring helve hammer".

Be carefull using the word flywheel unless you mean it. Then understand it. If you use a "flywheel" (a wheel with high mass) in a drive train it is hard to start and stop. That is what they are for, to smooth out variations in speed.

A crank wheel (which is what most power hammers have) is a different thing. A crank wheel has relatively low mass and is usualy counter balanced for the weight of the crank pin, connecting rod and driven mass. An straight arm (like on my EC-JYH will do the the same thing but round has the advantage of things not getting caught on it.

If you use a flywheel for a crank wheel (like reciprocating engines sometimes do) then your clutch will need to accelerate the mass of the flywheel AND the mass of the ram and associated parts. When you disengage the clutch you better have a good brake because that extra HP is going to keep the thing moving via the mass in the flywheel. Generaly power hammers and other machines do not have flywheels unless they are on the motor side of the clutch, not the machine side.

The Rusty is a good choice for a first hammer. But unless you are a machine designer you might learn something and save a lot of aggrevation by getting the plans. I haven't seen these particular plans and cannot make a specific recomendation. But most plans I have seen taught me a lot and *I AM* a machine designer.
  - guru - Thursday, 08/16/01 17:58:19 GMT

Flat Belts: Endless flat belts (including leather and rubber) are made by "skiving" (tapering) the ends of the belt and gluing them together. Most leather shops that make leather belts (to hold up your pants) have a little skiving machine the thin the ends of belts. Commercial belt suppliers will do the job too.

Leather is good and so is heavy cotton or other woven fabric for slack belt clutches. Rubber, rubber coated or impregnated types are not.

"Aligator" brand belt lacing can be installed without special tools but makes a hard noisy metal lump in your belt. "Clipper" brand is the best but it takes a special tool or machine to install the clips. These are like wire staples and are pressed flush into the surface of the belt. Some belt shops will install these for you too. However, if you have much flat belt drive machinery to maintain you NEED a clipper lacer.
  - guru - Thursday, 08/16/01 18:15:08 GMT

Insurance: Did anyone recommend the insurance from Hartford for Blacksmtihs. My policy is supposed to cover me when I do demonstrations. Even though it is offered through ABANA, you do not have to be a member, I am not. At this point I don't know if I will ever join ABANA again, but that is not my point to make now. Insurance is important in this day and age, etc.
  Jymm Hoffman - Thursday, 08/16/01 18:17:41 GMT

Insurance: I dug out my policy, etc. It covers my business premises and when I do demonstrations at other locations. It costs me at $450.00/year, a Hartfrod policy with this agency,
Industrial Coverage Corp. Michael J. Romeo & Sons, Inc.
  Jymm Hoffman - Friday, 08/17/01 16:15:30 GMT

insurance: Jymm,
How on earth did you get that insurance? I gave up on getting it thru them as they were never there, and they never returned phone calls. Also I was never able to get to the web page. Kept getting a message that it did not exsit.
  Ralph - Saturday, 08/18/01 15:52:32 GMT

Insurance: On Checking the phone numbers, the one previously listed is in my insurance forms, but maybe it is wrong. The other number that I have for Mike Romeo at Romeo & Sons is 516-736-7500, I do believe that is the one I used last Friday.
  Jymm Hoffman - Sunday, 08/19/01 19:09:42 GMT

Floor Post Drill: Yesterday I was helping set up a auction and there is this huge mabe 200lbs. floor post drill frame that has most of the gears and all of the pullys tooken off and are probobly lost forever but anyway the guy just uses it as a press now. Do you guys know a ballpark range of how mutch its worth? or any information on floor drills would be handy cause I'm definatly getin this sucker!.
  josh - Tuesday, 08/21/01 01:59:17 GMT

Tool Markings: I am trying to identify the makers mark on a couple of hammers that I have. I posted some pictures on a little web page and would appreciate any info someone might have. I would also be glad to post pictures for anyone else trying to identify tools.
  Mike - Tuesday, 08/21/01 02:32:06 GMT

Virus Warning: Someone in the blcksmithing comunity with "forge" in their e-mail address has TROJAN_SIRCAM.A. One of the attachments being sent is "Draw Fileing.doc" Very tempting to open!

DO NOT open this attacment. Do NOT let you MS system "preview" the file. This is a very bad virus and I am still getting mail from at least one new infection a day. Most are folks I do not know.

I had promised myself I wouldn't post these on anvilfire anymore but it seems to be in the "public" intrest.
  - guru - Thursday, 08/23/01 14:10:19 GMT

Virus: I got 4 infected messages from Coyote Forge today. All were "asking for my opinion". Be alert.
  Brian - Friday, 08/24/01 01:19:06 GMT

Celtic Cross: In a demonstration, I saw a Celtic Cross done. Is there a formula to figure the length of the splits on different length crosses
  Joey - Friday, 08/24/01 19:20:43 GMT

There is a formula, but I've never used it (and don't have it). I just experiment. I have found if the overlap is equal to the size of the stock, it seems to look better.
  Paw+Paw+Wilson - Friday, 08/24/01 20:53:43 GMT

I just can't resist it: Patient: "Doctor, you've got to help me, some mornings I wake up and think I'm Donald Duck, other mornings I think I'm Mickey Mouse."

Doctor: "Hmmmmmmm, and how long have you been having these disney spells?"
  Paw Paw Wilson - Saturday, 08/25/01 00:04:24 GMT

Receptionist: "Doctor, there's an invisible man in the waiting room."
Doctor: "Tell him I can't see him."
  Frank Turley - Saturday, 08/25/01 00:08:20 GMT

Sircam Virus: Sircam Virus
Pawpaw..thanks for the info. Our apologies to all who had problems. We were running "" virus protection which obviously didn't work for Sircam. This virus can enter your computer through an attachment from someone you know and receive mail from regularly that does not know they are infected. Somehow addresses were selected not only from our address book but also from this forum since yours, Otto's and other addresses are not in our book. This morning we talked with our wireless server and he helped us clean our computer of the virus. It worked fast and all files are now clean. The free site to clean Sircam from your computer is:\avcenter\
On his advice we then purchased and downloaded Norton 2002 Antivirus from the Internet. It does a constant scan of our e-mail and other files. Once the Norton 2002 is installed you can download updated protection by using their Livupdate option. It seems that this virus entered the forum from places other than Coyote Forge and hopefully this info will help those folks out there who were also infected.

  Buck - Saturday, 08/25/01 01:35:47 GMT

Virus: Buck, thanks for cleaning things up. This has been a nasty one and a lot of people have gotten it. The important thing is to keep ANY antivaral software updated. AND you can NEVER trust it 100%.

There are new "strains" of viruses coming out almost every week. It often takes a week or two for the anti-viral people to come up with the correct method of identifying it. That means that for the first couple weeks you are vulnerable EVEN if you update the antivirus software daily.

The addresses used by the viruses do not have to be in your address book but mearly in old mail that you have sent OR recieved. This and other viruses do not spread via forums such as this but strictly by data on the infected computer AND in the case of SIRCAM on other networked computers.

Some viruses have been known to modify themselves and carry address lists with them but this is not the case with SIRCAM.
  - guru - Saturday, 08/25/01 05:55:51 GMT

Sir Cam: Buck,

Actually, if I'm reading the reports correctly, a couple of the SPAMMERS got hit with it, and it went from them to ALL of the
addresses in their files, then on from there.

Personally, I wish it hadn't happened, I didn't just get it in my computer, it also got into my network. Took me almost two days
before I finally got the network completely cleaned up.

But I don't blame you or any of the other folks that sent it to me. Stuff happens. When it does, you wipe it up and keep going.
  Paw Paw Wilson - Saturday, 08/25/01 13:02:43 GMT

Avoiding Viruses: Steps to avoid getting and sending computer viruses.

1) Stop using MS Outlook Express. Be sure to delete the old mail boxes and address books. MS-OE is the primary cause of computer virus infections due to the default preview mode. It also the most common system used to send mail. Of the thousands of SIRCAM mails I've received from hundreds of people they were ALL sent using MS-OE.

2) Change over to using Eudora Lite or Pegasus mail. These are rarely ever used by viruses.

3) Do not keep an address book in any e-mail client. Use a wordprocesser, notepad or HTML editor.

4) Dissable the use of scripts, VB and HTML viewing in your e-mail client (MS-OE does all the above).

5) Never open attachments from:

a) Anyone you don't know and trust.
b) When it is not specificaly referenced in the letter
c) When the language seems chopped or distorted, oddly worded, even when sent by a friend.
d) Attachments with dual extentions such as .jpg.pif, .doc.exe, .doc.pif,, doc.bat.

If you use anti virus software realize that there may be a two week delay OR MORE in any new virus being recognized. It takes 8 hours or less for a virus to span the globe. Most do not spread from computer to computer but from one computer to hundreds or thousands in each step. This multiplier is much greater than a nuclear clain reaction or the most virulent of biological pathogens. In the weeks that it takes for a "cure" to be found tens of millions of computers may become infected.

AND the viruses don't go away. Almost every one that has been launched is hiding on someone's computer waiting for them to look through some old files and start the cycle all over again.
  - guru - Saturday, 08/25/01 16:35:04 GMT

BLACK BLACKSMITHS: This is a subject that has bothered me for a while and last nights network news show about the lack of African-American coaches in football where the majority of players (51%) are African-American are black reminded me that I probably ought to say something on this subject.

Where are the Black Blacksmiths?

Historicaly there have been black farriers, blacksmiths, artists and sculptors and I am sure there are just as many today. But we see very few "people of color" in ABANA or chapter meets. And what I mean by "few" is 0 to .01%. In a nation that is 12% African-American and has significant Oriental and Hispanic populations this makes our blacksmithing organizations "white men's clubs".

I do not go out of my way to make black friends but I have a few among the very small group of people I associate with localy. I am not racist but I am not normaly an advocate for minorities (other than blacksmiths in general). But this is different. I think it is time to be pro-active about recruiting minorities into our blacksmithing organizations.

It could be some cultural reason there seems to be little interest in blacksmithing among African-Americans. But this may be my trying to rationalize why there are near to none in our organizations.

The North American blacksmithing movement came out of a period where there almost no blacksmiths left in the country. Because it was NEW and perhaps because many smiths are "artist blacksmiths" I think we have done a much better job including women in blacksmithing than other typicaly male dominated fields have. So where are the Black Blacksmithig?

I'd like to hear your feelings on this subject. Either publicly or privately.

A NOTE to African-American smiths as well as other minorities. In smithing we are ALL bothers and sisters. If you join any of the ABANA-Chapters that I know, I think you will be welcomed and treated just like anyone else. We value interest in the field above everything else. In general these are the most generous, sharing and honest people I know of as a group. TRY US! Chapter meetings are open to guests (that invite themselves if need be). You don't have to pay to try it out!

If you don't feel welcome or are treated with anything less than respect as another human being, please let me know. I want to know why North American blacksmithing is currently a "white" world.
  - guru - Saturday, 08/25/01 20:09:50 GMT

Re-setting my cookie.
  Paw Paw Wilson - Sunday, 08/26/01 17:25:15 GMT

  Paw Paw Wilson - Sunday, 08/26/01 17:26:12 GMT

Mark Lewis,

Contact me via e-mail, please. Mail to you is bouncing.
  Paw Paw Wilson - Sunday, 08/26/01 17:28:19 GMT

Regarding black blacksmiths, I have wondered about the lack of their numbers in our midst, as well. My school, over the years, has been open to all, but I don't recall having had a black matriculant or graduate. In thinking back, I have had as minorities about five Native Americans, six Hispanics, and one "oriental". Females are not a minority in our society, but I suppose some smiths include them in this regard, because they are in a traditionally male field of endeavor. Since about 1990, I have had a proportionately larger number of female students than in the years prior to that, perhaps 10%.

I'm not too sure how to be pro-active in the recruitment of blacks, unless some entity has enough money to advertise in black oriented media. Meanwhile, I welcome all comers.

  Frank Turley - Sunday, 08/26/01 19:22:32 GMT

Frank, I think you've hit on a part of the problem. Those of us who are concerned about the problem do NOT want to be offensive, or condescending when talking to our African-American friends. So we are sometimes hesitant about inviting them.

As it happens, I do know one African-American Blacksmith. A brother Viet-Vet, and a good smith. (although he hasn't been smiting very long, he already has the touch). I'll send him an e-mail and ask him to join us in this forum. He may be able to give us some insight and help.
  Paw Paw Wilson - Sunday, 08/26/01 20:52:04 GMT

Recruiting: Most Blacks are taught to go after the "High Tech" type of jobs. As a child I was taught this. Jobs like Blacksmything was for the un-educated. We were taught to "be something". That meant going to the Universities. Be what we weren't allowed to be before.

Even now when I tell people that I am a Blacksmythe, I get strange looks. Those that don't know me think that I'm a bck woods person.

As far as recruiting othher Blacks, even I have a problem with that.
  Jim Lewis - Sunday, 08/26/01 22:58:24 GMT

Jim's message is probably the best bet. I can see both how and why that has been (and still is) true.

When I demonstrate at the Museum of Appalachia, I smith in front of the Steve Parkey Forge. Mr. Parkey had been a slave, trained as a smith at his master's command. Freed by the War between the States, he moved to Tn. because he wanted to farm. He set up a small forge on his farm to repair his own equipment. He was a darn good country smith.
Soon, he had to hire people to do his farming, he couldnt' get out of his forge long enough to do any! I've always thought how ironic that was, and have always felt priviledged to be allowed to demonstrate at his shop.

How do we give that pride to others!
  Paw Paw Wilson - Monday, 08/27/01 00:00:15 GMT

JYH: sorry to break the roll. what about the 2002 jyh? anything going in that direction?
  mark s. krause - Monday, 08/27/01 04:06:40 GMT

So far, no one has said anything about that.
  Paw+Paw+Wilson - Monday, 08/27/01 12:24:56 GMT

minorities: My good friend Corey, forge helper of 7 yrs, book keeper,(on fridays I just sign a blank check, when my friends see that they ask for a job on the spot!) is a black man. He's never been to a conference, I don't know why, sometimes I wonder if he worries how he'll be recieved. I was born and raised in Alabama so he knows that all southerners are not born and bred racists. If someone has an interest in blacksmithing they are welcome to come by the shop, if I have time. Only once in the 9 yrs I've been open has an Afro-American called or stopped by. It is odd.
  Pete - Monday, 08/27/01 12:28:36 GMT

Recruiting: When I first went to a NC ABANA meeting, I was very apprehensive. I expected (as do most people I know) to find a bunch of "Red Necks". Everything you see or hear about Blacksmiths is... well just like the cowboys, very white. PLUS most people think that all a smith does is shoe horses!

Part of the problem I get from most people is "Black people don't do...". I am a Blacksmythe, I work Renaissance Faires, and I dress as a Klingon at Star Trek Conventions. None of which is "what Black people do". I, and this might sound funny, have very very few black friends. In fact Paw Paw is about my best friend. (I know you guys pitty me. chuckle)

There is one over riding factor. How many smiths make a living doing this thing we love? If you are a carpenter you can find a job most anywhere. For me to make a living I travel about 6 - 8 months a year. What incenitive is there for the young guy to do this? I would love to stay at home and work out of my shop. I have very few customers. If my wife didn't support me in my dream I couldn't be on the road.

Lastly, the only thing I can see to get more people into smithing is to invite them to watch and help you. When you demo at fairs and the like, let the people know that they too can become a smith. Let them know that EVERYONE is welcome...
Jim Lewis
  Jim Lewis - Monday, 08/27/01 13:17:06 GMT

Why not invite Corey to the next conference you go to?
  Paw Paw Wilson - Monday, 08/27/01 13:17:42 GMT

Thank you! But you're "sticking your head up". And I'm proud of you for doing so!
  Paw Paw Wilson - Monday, 08/27/01 13:19:42 GMT

Recruiting Minorities: Jim Lewis brings up some points I had thought of but had not said. Blacksmithing is not highly profitable for many of us. For the majority it is a hobby and many are "starving artists". It is something that you must love. It is also considered "manual labor". It is NOT an "upwardly mobile" trade. But it IS often the tool of artists and sculptors, a group that I am sure is well represented by minorities.

When I was demontstrating full time I worked with a great many children and young adults and I know that I infuenced a number to get into the trade. However, the places I demonstrated were primarily arts and crafts fairs and I do not remember seeing a significant number of African-Americans at those events. That was in the late 1970's. Things may have changed.

When Paw-Paw and I visited the Southern Conference in 1999 Phillip Simmons (AKA The Blacksmith of Charleston) was a guest of honor. Many young (white) smiths were asking him to autograph his book and pestering him with questions about blacksmithing. At that time it seemed to me that members of his family were the few other black folks there. And yet in this sea of white a black man was being revered as an icon.

I think this was what got me looking at US as a group and realizing just how WHITE we were.

  - guru - Monday, 08/27/01 16:07:20 GMT

paw-paw: I've bugged him so much about going that it started to cause problems, so I don't any more. He's been to Gitchners (?)and liked that. It could be that the ABANA conf's are too far, I don't know. Any body know where the next one after WI is going to be? Somewhere in the N.E. I'd guess.
guru- In our trade experience is the thing. Someone I know was at Alfred and said "look at all these young guys following these old timers around". Something not so often seen any more. And you're on the mark as far as the loving it part is concerned. Who'd of figured that welding up 22 pair of straps and pintels would "blow my skirt up" as the saying goes. :)
  Pete - Monday, 08/27/01 17:09:40 GMT

OK, that makes sense. Last thing you would want to do it make a good employee un-happy. I've been in that postion too, and I know how easy it can happen.

How about one of the more local affairs? BGOP Spring Fling?

  Paw Paw Wilson - Monday, 08/27/01 18:25:13 GMT

Jews and Goys (Gentiles): I think this upwardly mobile idea is true in the world of American Jews, although this may not be a perfect analogue with reference to Blacks. I have had a small number of Jewish students. One of them, from the long-ago days, told me that in the old country, Jews worked at all sorts of jobs, but in the U.S., they were urged *not* to do menial labor, but to try to be doctors and lawyers. My student was a horseshoer when he came to my class. He said that once he got a call to go out in the country and shoe a dairy farmer's pleasure horse. The farmer was a Jew, originally from Europe, and he knew the shoer had a typically Jewish surname. He asked if the shoer was a Jewish boy and received the answer, "Yes". Well, the farmer was really delighted *AND AMAZED* to find an American Jew who worked with his hands as he, the farmer, did. The boy was invited in immediately for pie and coffee.
  Frank Turley - Monday, 08/27/01 19:02:54 GMT

bgop: Jim. I missed spring fling this past year, but was there the two yrs before. I asked if he wanted to go all tree
  Pete - Monday, 08/27/01 19:21:47 GMT

That's all you can do, then.
  Paw Paw Wilson - Monday, 08/27/01 19:33:32 GMT

BLACK Smiths: I am currently training a "black" smith. His name is Innocent, he is a qualified welder and is the welding trainer here at Ozisweni, were my workshop is located. Osizweni is a Zulu word which means "Helping People".
(I am in South Africa)
I knew two Malawian 'smiths in my childhood, they worked in the mine's forge where I grew up. Both of them were just over 5' tall and scrawny, only senews and bones. I still have some of their work in my shop, which I inherited from my father.
  Tiaan - Monday, 08/27/01 19:47:33 GMT

Phillip Simmons: hey guys what is the name of his book???
  Jim Lewis - Monday, 08/27/01 21:50:16 GMT

Phillip Simmons: Jim,

You had to ask that, didn't you? (grin) I'll see if I can find out, don't remember off the top of my head.
  Paw Paw Wilson - Monday, 08/27/01 22:27:48 GMT

Peter Wright: Is it unusual or commonplace to come across a Peter Wright anvil?
  Glenn Funderburk - Tuesday, 08/28/01 01:14:01 GMT

Glenn,: Bout mid way. Peter Wrights were made in England, imported to the US for quite a while. So there are quite a few of them.
  Paw Paw Wilson - Tuesday, 08/28/01 01:59:18 GMT

The Philip Simmons book is entitled Charleston Blacksmith, by John Michael Vlach, University of Georgia Press, 1981. FYI, there was a smith got a lot of ink a few years ago teaching kids in inner city Chicago the art of smiting. Unknow if he was black.
  Miles Undercut - Tuesday, 08/28/01 03:41:39 GMT

Thank you! I haven't been able to remember or find what the title was.
  Paw Paw Wilson - Tuesday, 08/28/01 04:01:59 GMT

Charleston Blacksmith: I've got a copy. Will be posting a review shortly (within a week).
  - guru - Tuesday, 08/28/01 04:25:06 GMT

Personally I do not care what colour skin a smith has. Nor do I feel we should have to recruit in any particular area.
I share my meager knowledge with whom ever wants it. If they are interested I ensure that they are welcome to come over and work with me either at home or ask if they want to come out to the NPS site I volunteer at.
I truely hope that this area (blacksmithing) does not get on the current PC band wagon where we have to have 'X' numbers of 'minorities' represented or we will be considered a bad group etc etc.
  Ralph - Tuesday, 08/28/01 19:24:09 GMT

Ralph: As you know, I'm one of the least politically correct folks around. Always have been, probably always will be.

But I think you are missing our point. We're not looking for some mythical "right" number. We are just looking for true equality.
  Paw Paw Wilson - Wednesday, 08/29/01 00:21:37 GMT

Racisim: I too, do not care what the color of one's skin is. AND I really hate the fact that we even have to use any type of racial terminology in any type of discussion. I do not like being asked on government and financial forms what my race is and I am SURE that minorities hate it more than I do.

But the fact is, this is NOT the future portrayed in Star Trek where all humanity is treated equaly. WE LIVE in a racialy divided society. AND our blacksmithing organizations appear to be more racially divided than society in general.

I do not think the problem is due to racisim as it has been purposely so in many organizations but probably due to cultural and societal differences that may have resulted in a lack of interest. Plus apathy on our part. Have you EVER heard or read of the issue being raised by ABANA or written about in the Anvil's Ring? A chapter news letter?

The fact is ABANA and its chapters are whiter than the most exclusive private club in America, and it bothers me.

I think we need to do everything we can to be SURE that minorities of all kinds know they are welcome to join our organizations and come to our meetings and take part in the craft that we so dearly love.

It is much too easy for an outsider to look in and see nothing but white faces and sumise that maybe others are not welcome.

In the case of ABANA there may be legal obligations to seek out and recruit minorities. On many occasions ABANA has had govenrment grants. All U.S. Government monies have equal opportunity clauses attached. They may have a hard time explaining why there are no minority demonstrators (I think) or no minority board members.

And of course ABANA cannot even tell how many minority members they have because they do not ask. And I am not saying they should ask. *I* don't know if we have any minorities in the Cybersmiths for the same reason. I'm pretty sure we do not and I don't want to ask.

But perhaps we should. At least ask for voluntary information.
  - guru - Wednesday, 08/29/01 03:48:49 GMT

Racism?: Racial equality? Somewhat like Ralph said, I welcome anyone, of any race, to join me in anything I do. I do NOT think that I should have to go out of my way to invite any specific race any more than any other. Every one is welcome, but I personally require them to show me an interest first. White, black, purple or orange. Doesnít matter to me. Ask me if you want to do what I am doing. This is the same as I expect from myself and any white person. Itís what I did when I wanted to learn more about blacksmithing. I pester you guys. You didnít look for me. And I donít want you to.

Any non white person who doesnít have the gumption to seek and ask until they find, is just as guilty of furthering racism as Nazis and the KKK.

Please reread that last sentence. It is key to my opinion.

Racism is a two sided street. Non whites who whine about the lack of opportunity, but who ASSUME that whites donít want them around, are a large part of the problem. I think a VERY large part of the problem. If a minority looks in the door and sees all whites and assumes he/she is not welcome, who is at fault? If you ask one white and get a bad answer, call them a jerk and ask another! Yes, there are some racist people out there. But in my experience, they are a minority of whites. Are racists a minority among minorities?

There are those of us that WILL welcome you. But you will have to have the interest to look for us.

Equality to me is equal experience, equal ability and equal desire. We will never have my definition of equality. We are all different. And we should celebrate that difference instead of trying to homogenize. Except in communication. In my opinion, every human has an equal ability to learn and apply something useful to the rest of society. Not the same stuff exactly, but ďsomethingĒ useful. If they donít look for that thing, Iím going to call them lazy. But Iíll help pay to educate anyone.

If someone else wants to go out of their way to welcome minorities, go for it. Itís your time and money. I respect you for it. Just donít tell me I have to.

I know none of you are telling me I have to. Grin.

There.... my .000002 for what itís worth. Opinions to be sure. Not stated as fact. (Although I believe it to be fact)
  Tony - Wednesday, 08/29/01 14:10:53 GMT

Race Relations: Tony, I agree with most of what you say but there is a huge difference between racism on an individual basis and an institutional one.

The KKK was organized through our superior court system (one of our Federal Judges wrote their operating manual) and was further institutionalized through the Southern Baptist church and various social groups related to the church. This was the absolute worst kind of racisim and it continues to this day in many organizations.

I know it still goes on because I was in a board meeting where the topic of discussion was "How to keep blacks out of our organization, and how to prevent them from using (renting) our facilities". I was shocked, and that was the last meeting I went to. Since then there have been several local businesses that will not do business with me. The last time I needed a tow truck I was told, "Why don't you get some of your n------ friends to do it". . .

Imagine being black and having the majority of the local fire department being KKK members. . . what are you going to do when your house is on fire??? This is not common but it does still exist in our country.

This background makes any all white organization "look" racist. I am fairly sure our blacksmithing organizations are NOT. But from the outside it might look that way. And I think we need to do our best to be sure that it does not.
  - guru - Wednesday, 08/29/01 17:42:16 GMT

pitty??: Someone being friend with Pawpaw?? naaah *I* admire the person.
Being a true friend is HARD. yes, true, it is joyous, nice, nesesary for happy life... But can also be painfull, sad... Being a good friend to a blacksmith is that AND hard work, LOL ;-)
as for both the above and be confronted with Pawpaws sharp tounge will likely either end or strenghten a friendship FAST AND GOOD.
  OErjan - Wednesday, 08/29/01 18:21:28 GMT

Are you saying that I'm hard to get along with??? (grin)
  Paw Paw Wilson - Wednesday, 08/29/01 19:26:38 GMT

Racism: I guess things are worse in your neighborhood. I don't doubt that it happens. And I know a few racists around here, but the vast majority have an open mind. Maybe skeptical, but open. Here, I see more minorities that use the excuse of 1 or 2 snubs to sit on their butt and demand welfare. Hence Wisconsin and the W2 program to limit benefits to those that don't try to work or learn. We were too nice here and the lazy flocked here in droves. We had HUGE influx of welfare families. We finally got sick of it. Now the country stole our good Governor Tommy Thompson away for the head of the department of Health and Human Services. I guess I should be glad and not selfish.

Whites get snubbed too. There are other minorities who have overcome their issues. Polish, Catholic, Jewish, Irish, etc. I have relatives who lived through much of that. And in more than one category. Why can't the existing minorities do the same?

Another trend that I see that I don't like is the desire to maintain a minority culture outside the group and visibly within the mainstream culture. We are trying to be forced to pay for multilingual education which slows down the brighter in a class. Talk about going backward! We are paying for multiligual signage and government documents, etc. This is extremely inefficient and shows that many minority people do not want to "blend in". I'm all for keeping your heritage in your home and even in group settings. There are still large German clubs in Southeast Wisconsin. German is spoken, non Germans are welcome, and the Germans don't force their language and Ooom Pah Pah music on the neighbors. Everyone gets along fine. Other ethnic groups do the same. Many ethnic festivals in Milwaukee and elsewhere. But forcing me to pay for multi cultural and multilingual stuff (in many ways)is unacceptable to me. Learn the darn majority language and use it in the general public! Other immigrant populations did. Why not the new minorities? I guess itís no longer a requirement for citizenship? Or maybe we should all be forced to learn ebonics?

Again, racism is a TWO WAY street. If minorities want to be accepted by the majority, they should not try to force their culture on the majority. Not all do, of course.

Some minorities abuse the privileges they have also. Veteran Hmongs in WI have additional hunting rights. They move into an area hunted by others, sometimes for generations and do not follow the norms established and agreed to. They shoot anything that moves and take over. Decimating the wildlife. Making the area unsafe. Native Americans, who I think have really gotten a Raw deal from whites, will fish a lake dry by netting and spearing during spawning season. Just because they have the treaty rights. And the rest of the population gets severely limited fish take. That doesn't endear them to anyone. So while they did get a raw deal, no one wants to make it better for them. They wanted "logging rights" to large areas in Northeast WI. A large logging company owner offered to rent them his equipment at his cost for them to harvest the timber. They declined. Too much work for them. They just wanted some of his hard earned profit. What are we to think of that?

As you pointed out and I tried to convey, my points are personal. I have a deep belief that if we all thought that way, the issue would be gone. And it would not be an issue of color, but an issue of desire to produce something useful for society. I realize it's a goal for many others, including minority others.

Kudos to you for not going to another meeting and dealing with the consequences. If there weren't enough decent people willing to fight the racism, I'd be looking for another area to raise my family if I was black and in your town. After I moved out, I'd probably go back and do some damage to those who hurt me with racism. Easy for me to say, of course. But I have been in situations with the government where I needed to fight because I was being unfairly persecuted. I pissed off the local affluent establishment while speaking up for the poor. I could have rolled over and given up. But instead, I rallied my neighbors and fought with public opinion. It worked very well. Why can't it work for others? It was a lot of work. Too much work for others? No sympathy from me. Too lazy to fight your own battles and rally others? No sympathy from me!

There are more than enough whites with nothing better to do than take up the cause of the downtrodden. (I am not putting anyone here in that category) Since institutional racism is illegal, maybe they could spend some of your tax dollars prosecuting the racists. Oops, see, the lawyers win again. Bypass the lawyers and work with your friends and neighbors. If you can't get enough local support, move your family out. There are plenty of good places in this country.

Racism is a two way street. Like all human contact.

Iíll try to shut up now since I hope Iím ďpreaching to the choirĒ.
  Tony - Wednesday, 08/29/01 19:28:42 GMT

But why does it bother you that ABANA is 'whiter' than most private clubs? It should not as long as ABANA or smithinging groups do not discriminate. And I do not think they do.
Some crafts and trades are often not as populated with some 'minoritys' as others, and I do not think it is always due to prejudice. Perhaps it is due to the fact that some crafts are deemed manual labour or hard work and there for should not be sought after?

Jim, I do not think I have missed your point, but I think you missed mine. Why try to force an artificial number? If there is little interest in any one or more minority groups to be involved then why try to force them? Before you know it the govt or one of the 'civil rights' groups will cry foul and force us to have quotas, even thought they will not call them quotas. It seems to me to be a dangourous path to start down.
Now if there is real and active discrimination, not that is a different can of worms. Have you or Jock seem this at your local meetings, or on a national level?

of course the above is only my humble opinion.
  Ralph - Wednesday, 08/29/01 20:05:32 GMT

No one is trying to force an artifical number. We're just concerned that there are so few minoritie blacksmiths. The subject originally was "black" smith. But the question can (and perhaps should) be expanded to the low numbers of minoritie smiths.
  Paw Paw Wilson - Thursday, 08/30/01 01:29:08 GMT

BLACKsmiths... Racism...?: Alot of good points have been made. Let me give mine, ok?

First I agree that NO ONE needs to go seeking blacks to learn or join any orginazation. I, personally don't seek any special group to share my (however limited) knowledge.

Second, It is EASY to say that other minorities have overcome racism when talking about WHITE minorities. (Polish, Catholic, Jewish, Irish...) When I walk in a room you know that I'm black, the others you have to find out what they are.

Third, if anyone wanted to start quotas, I'd be the first to be against it.

Forth, with a life time of being "snubed", it is very easy to get discouraged and give up. If I had been snubbed when I went to my first NC ABANA meeting, I never would have gone back. I AM NOT A QUITER!!! I do have pride and think more of myself than to take a load of crap from anyone. In my childhood I did have to take... crap, I won't and don't now. Again it is easy when you haven't been there.

Fifth, when Jim (Paw Paw) asked me to join in on this conversation, I wondered why you guys were even having it. I feel that if anyone wants to learn, then they will find a way. I did. I expect no less from anyone else. (there are schools that give classes on smtihing)

Sixth, This is America! The language is ENGLISH. When I was in Eroupe they didn't make allowances for non- what ever country you were in speaking people.

Let me stop here and say that one of the reasons that Paw Paw and I get along so well is I have about as much tact and diplomacy as he does.

All I am saying and my hope is that if anyone comes to you to learn, that regardless of who or what they are, you share your knowledge with them.

And in case anyone has missed it, I am one of the elusive (as you refer to it) "BLACKsmiths". BUT I prefer to be reconized as a MAN... just a man... No other prefixes, a man not a BLACK man... an American... not a AFRO-American... just a man.

One thing about it though, I do respect your right to feel any way you want to, that is your right. My right is to feel how I do. As long as we don't try to FORCE your opinions on the other.

Talk about being in the pulpit... I'll shut up now.

God I miss a spell checker
  Jim Lewis - Thursday, 08/30/01 13:19:44 GMT

Ooops... : I meant to put our opinions not your opinions.
  Jim Lewis - Thursday, 08/30/01 13:24:39 GMT

Black and White: I too am against quotas or specific numbers. But I consider ZERO (or statisticaly so) to be an unaceptable number in this case.

Yes, it is easier to discriminate against people of color. But at one time it was by name. O'Leary, O'Malley. . . O'Dempsey. . . marked you as one of the poor drunken Irish imigrants that were discriminated against simply because they were poor, and new to America, and largely Catholic (another reason to discriminate). If your name didn't give you away that wonderful Irish accent did it for you. . .

My grandfather was treated this way. To the point that many in the family thought we were potato famine imigrants. In fact the male line of our family had been here since before 1780 and several of the wives from as early as the 1600's.

When I fill in a form that demands you fill in "RACE" it upsets me that the question is there in the first place, THEN upsets me because there is not a place for IRISH. Yes, we were discriminated against as a "race" so why not include us on the forms???? The last one of these I filled out was a bank credit application. It stated that if *I* didn't fill it in that Federal law required the banker to so. HOW is the banker supposed to determine my race????? By looking at the color of my skin. . . .

When we no longer need to ask this question we might truely be free.

NO, I am NOT accusing ABANA or any Chapter of discrimination nor do I think that they do so. If I had evidence of such I would not be asking such polite questions.

I am simply making the point that we have a very low number of minorities and that we should make it a point to be sure to make them welcome.

I don't believe in treating one group or another "special". However, we still live in a time and place where racial discrimination exists. We still live in a time where there are discrimination wrongs to be made right. This makes the mere appearance of discrimination distasteful even if it does not exist.
  - guru - Thursday, 08/30/01 15:42:51 GMT

I think most of us are at least on the same page.

Jim knows that I'll help anyone that wants to learn what I know. Jock knows the same thing about me, and I know it about Jock. I'd go so far as to say that I think ALL of us know it about Jock. And I don't think any of you doubt it about me.

What we want to be sure of is that as many people as possible feel that way.

  Paw Paw Wilson - Thursday, 08/30/01 15:55:48 GMT

BLACKsmiths...?????: Mr Jim Lewis ,,Well said , what does it matter what colour a MAN'S skin is . If u & i both cut ourselves we both bleed the same colour blood ( mine with an amber tinge :) )We both aspire to be the best that we can .
We both eat , drink :) , breath , reproduce & die
So in the end does it realy matter what colour a man's skin is ???
  chopper - Thursday, 08/30/01 16:34:48 GMT

BLACKsmiths...?????: Mr Jim Lewis ,,Well said , what does it matter what colour a MAN'S skin is . If u & i both cut ourselves we both bleed the same colour blood ( mine with an amber tinge :) )We both aspire to be the best that we can .
We both eat , drink :) , breath , reproduce & die
So in the end does it realy matter what colour a man's skin is ???
  chopper - Thursday, 08/30/01 16:36:23 GMT

Racism: Jim Lewis, you are the kind of man who is welcome in my shop. But I doubt I could teach you anything about smithing. The other way around Iím sure. Grin. I appreciate that kind of discussion from anyone. I respect you for overcoming the difficulties.

I do recognize that non whites are easily recognized, but I know the other white minorities were easily identified by their accents. My wifes parents came over to the US from Germany in the early 1950's. Not too long after WW2. You can bet that there werenít too many US citizens that enjoyed working with a German. They moved around quite a bit for a few years and ended up in Milwaukee with a high German immigrant percentage.

Yes, itís easy to talk when I havenít been in your shoes. But that doesnít change how I have, and will, approach the issue. Iíll work or play with anyone who wants to work hard at it. And Iíll shoo away anyone who is looking for a free handout. Maybe I forgot to put a t after shoo......

In case there is any question, I'd like to see as many non white smiths as possible.
  Tony - Thursday, 08/30/01 16:39:50 GMT

My maternal grand father was 1st generation german. His name was Albert Johann Reuter. During WWI, he changed his name to Albert John Reuter. I know what you are talking about from yet another viewpoint.

I went into the Army in September of 1957. There were still a few places that had signs out side that said "No Soldiers Allowed".

Maybe the fact that we have dealt with predjudice in minor ways makes us a little more sensitive to it than the average white person.
  Paw Paw Wilson - Thursday, 08/30/01 17:20:59 GMT

Paw Paw: The wifes fathers name is Heite (high teh) L_ttm_nn. He was an electrical engineer in WW2. Boats and u-boats I think. He won't talk about it much.

Yeah, we should understand a little better than average. I won't go into details of what happened on my Polish side of the family.

Kids react depending on how they were raised. My son has his first non white classmate this year and he came home wondering why one of the other kids was giving the new kid a hard time for his color.

Funny how a little adversity strengthens and enlightens(or should).
  Tony - Thursday, 08/30/01 18:18:20 GMT

Lewis: Bravo to Mr. Lewis!! I'm proud to be an American, I like to think of myself as a man, and try to be what a Christian should be, nothing else should matter.
  Glenn Funderburk - Thursday, 08/30/01 20:37:25 GMT

Tony: Ya, Ich sprechen ein kliener bissel Deutsch.

> Funny how a little adversity strengthens and enlightens(or should).

I agree with should. Sadly, a lot of folks give up when faced with adversity. Personally, surrender is not an option.
  Paw Paw Wilson - Thursday, 08/30/01 21:03:46 GMT

BLACKsmiths: From someone that wants to stay out of this particular discussion I recieved a rather clear summation of this issue.

He says there are "problems" and "situations". A problem being something that can be solved, a situation being something that just IS. This issue being a situation more than a problem.

He remembers his (European) immigrant grandmother doing everything in her power to isolate the family from a past of manual labor and poverty. Perhaps the same is true here and what we have is class distinctions (based on racial lines).

The current situation being that many upper and middle class whites, being comfortable in their situation do not have a bias against being seen working with their hands. Minorities on the other hand may feel insecure in their new position (historicaly) and not want to be seen as a "manual laborer".

This is a situation that perhaps only time will change. It may not be a problem we can solve.

But the situation IS a fact and I'd like to see it change. I think it is also good to be aware of the situation and help time along. . .

  - guru - Friday, 08/31/01 15:24:51 GMT

UN Conference on Racism: Oddly enough, the UN conference on racism is being held in South Africa as we discuss the same here. The US and Canada did not send representives.
  - guru - Saturday, 09/01/01 04:41:59 GMT

U.N. Conference On Racism: Guru Sir; I must respectfully disagree with you concerning "... Canada not sending representatives to the U.N.conference on racism". There is a Canadian delegation there. It is headed by the Multicultural Minister a Ms. Hedy Fry.
Also, Canada's ambassador to the U.N., a Mr. Paul Heinbecker, is there as Canada's senior official to that conference in Durban, South Africa. The person who is not there is Mr.John Manley, Canada's Foreign Affairs Minister. He would normally be there but he has chosen to stay home, in Ottawa for a special reason. Namely, the blatant highjacking of the conference by some delegatrs who want to turn the meeting into a one-sided diatribe against one country, namely, Israel. The main problem is yet another attempt to pass a resolution equating Zionism with racism. Such a U.N. resolution was repealed, a few years ago, at the U.N.
Canada has officially denounced such a resolution and the attempt to vote on it yet again. The government has stated that they will pull out of the conference if such a resolution is passed.
The conference's purpose was to consider racism, in all it's ugly forms, Worldwide. The meeting was not convened to consider only one issue, and single out and denounce only one country. This issue has shoved aside many other important sessions dealing with other discrimination. Furthermore the meetings of divers Jewish groups have been shouted down and physically obstructed in various ways. The result of which, has forced cancellation of legitimate sessions and dialogue. (some of these groups have left the conference). One Arab country gave away t-shirts with a Nazi swastica superimposed upon a star of david. (the symbol of the Jewish religion). Those are some of the reasons why Minister Manley is not there.
I have just heard that Mr. Jesse Jackson has had a dialogue with Chairman Yasser Arafat and the resolution is supposed to be withdrawn. If this happens, delegatates may yet be able to accomplish the meeting's original purpose. That purpose is to examine and discuss issues of racism worldwide. I am writing this note to correct the record.
Respectfully Yours, Slag
  Slag - Saturday, 09/01/01 06:59:03 GMT

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