Some tools to drool over.  Image (c) 1998 Jock Dempsey.  Click for enlargement. WELCOME to the anvilfire!
Virtual Hammer-In!

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July 2001 Archive

WHY THREE FORUMS? Well, this is YOUR blacksmithing forum to use for whatever you wish within the rules stated above. It is different than the Slack-Tub Pub because the messages are permanently posted and archived.
This page is NOT a chat - it is a "message board"

Our chat, the (Slack-Tub Pub), is immediate but the record of it is temporary. DO NOT post permanent messages there. We refresh the "log" every 24 hours now and your message will be lost.

The Guru's Den is where I and several others try to answer ALL your blacksmithing and metalworking questions to us.

J. Dempsey  <webmaster> Rev. 7/98, 3/99, 5/2k, 6/2k, Friday, 04/06/01 16:43:25 GMT

WELCOME! To the NEW Virtual Hammer-In! We now has a new look and smoother operation!

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Thanks go to OErjan, Ralph, Alan and Adam Smith for helping test and debug the new system.

J. Dempsey  <webmaster> - Friday, 04/06-26/01

Insruance: Stiffy,

Figure I'd better drop you a note, just so you know you aren't being ignored.

But none of us have a good answer for you. Insurance is a subject that comes up fairly often. I've been doing public, museum and school demonstrations for almost 11 years now. I've looked for insurance for 10 of those years. I can find insurance that is reasonable in cost, but it only covers when I'm doing a re-enactment event.

I've never had an accident involving anyone other than myself or a helper, (minor burns) but it would only take one to wipe me out.
  Paw+Paw+Wilson - Sunday, 07/01/01 14:38:34 GMT

Smithing Conference: The 5th Annual Saltfork Craftsmen ABA Blacksmithing Conference will be this Oct. 13-14 in Guthrie, Ok. The professionals are Doug Merkel, and the team of Kathleen and Jim Poor. Registration contact: 580-336-9213; colonel at Jim C.
  Jim Carothers - Sunday, 07/01/01 23:25:36 GMT

Lia. Ins.: Thanks Paw Paw, Have a safe and fun 4th of July. Talk later, Stiffy
  Stiffy - Monday, 07/02/01 05:07:53 GMT

Videos: LOL! With all this talk about the 2K conference, I dug out the videos and copied 3 demos to VHS. I now have Tia Goo with his primitave knife forging (first session), The first Titainum(sp?) demo and the first session of traditional grill work copied. It sure was fun reliving the demos. It took the better part of the day (6 hrs) to coppie them but watching the demos again reminded me of why I taped them in the first place! It made me want to jump right up and do some forging but as the outside temp was 105 in the shade, I settled for "planning" my next session in the shop (big grin).
  Wayne Parris - Monday, 07/02/01 13:49:28 GMT

Lever forges: Rob - I would be interested in any further info that you may have regarding lever-operated forges. I have one of the Champion leather-strap-and-clutch types that I rescued from an antique dealer's flower garden where it was being used as a planter. I think that I have all of the parts, except the leather straps, and I think that I can figure out how it goes together, but it would be good to know more about it and possibly see some kind of drawing (an exploded view would be ideal, but probably too much to wish for!). The poor thing is sitting in the project line-up waiting for restoration. I should be able to get to it in the next year. Thanks in advance for any help.

  Ron Holcomb - Monday, 07/02/01 17:47:22 GMT

To any of you folks I have not contacted, about the delay on the unveiling of the world,s largest Anvil, I thought I would post this, Because of a greedy neighbor, and a boundry dispute over property owned for over 30 years, we will not have the fishfry/dance and anvil unveiling on the 4th of July , at Lake Palestine, Texas, this was also to be a hammer-in to all within driving distance, ( I am setting up at least 4 anvils, and other equip. sorry folks,
  Ray Davis - Monday, 07/02/01 17:49:26 GMT

"mile long anvil": To any of yall who would like a picture send me a email and I will email back a pic. ( the nickname mile long anvil was stuck on it by bob Walkner, the famous mini anvil maker that made the mini,s for abana last year at Flagstaff) 5280 pounds= mile long"later folks and film at 11
  Ray Davis - Monday, 07/02/01 17:55:56 GMT

stiffy, you might try welding /fabricating/blacksmithing, I carry 2 million ins, and do just about anything, except railroad and bridges, but it is not cheap
  Ray Davis - Monday, 07/02/01 17:59:12 GMT

Virginia - CVBG: The next CVBG meeting will be at Daniel Boone's near Charlottesville, VA. Dan is going to make a dragon head from damascus! 2nd Sat in July (14th). Should be real cool!! This is something he has always wanted to do. Member Roger Smith is making some damascus billets for him.

  - guru - Tuesday, 07/03/01 05:16:53 GMT

Lever forges: Ron;
I don't know of any exploded views but they are pretty simple machines in any case. If it has an overrunning clutch, there are some palls or some sort of ratcheting device in the hub. Take the hub apart and check these and where they engage for condition and make any repairs as necessary. Check the bearings and repair as necessary. For leather belting, you can use blanks sold in craft stores for holding up your pants. These are available from Tandy leather or whoever supplies your town with leather craft goods. You can join the belt with lacing or taper the ends of the belt and glue them together with cement that is also available at the craft store. Babbet bearings are another matter. You need to re-pour them. It is not out of the range of skills to perform, it just takes your skills to a new level.
As to the save, Good catch!! there is enough of our tools that get worn out, I hate to think of good equipment going to rust, holding flowers!
  Wayne Parris - Tuesday, 07/03/01 13:10:53 GMT

Lever Forges: Rob and Wayne, thanks! You guys are getting me so excited about this forge that it may have to be moved up the Project List! I hesitate to put this into writing on a public forum, but I may just have to photo-document the restoration of this forge and post it somewhere.

I have never poured babbit, but I noticed a couple of books on the subject in the Lindsay catalogue. It would be a good learning experience that will help me with my power hammer resto.
  Ron Holcomb - Tuesday, 07/03/01 15:42:56 GMT

Ron, when you make up the long leather belt which goes around the flywheel to the blower, be sure to lace it in one of the joinings, even if you scarf and glue two pieces to make a long enough belt: the new belt will stretch and you may have to shorten it. Cutting a bit off and relacing it if it loosens is easy enough. You will need to remember to unship the belt if you leave the blower idle overnight so it won't continue to stretch.
  Rob - Wednesday, 07/04/01 13:15:18 GMT

Lever Forges: Thanks for the tip, Rob. I am used to working with vee-belts and gears - not much stretching with those devices!
  Ron Holcomb - Thursday, 07/05/01 15:53:29 GMT

Hammer markings: I have a couple of hammers that have a makers mark that I am not familiar with. One is fairly new (has the wear safety goggles stamp) and the other is possibly old. Both have the same mark. The mark is kind of a TVY all connected. Does anyone know what maker marks their tools with this mark? I have posted a couple of pictures on my website and the URl is below. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks.
  Mike Gillespie - Friday, 07/06/01 02:51:26 GMT


See if you can get a little clearer picture of the maker's mark, and I'll try to help you.
  Paw+Paw+Wilson - Friday, 07/06/01 12:02:32 GMT

OK. I posted a new picture and a drawing that are hopefully a little more clear. Thanks, Mike
  Mike Gillespie - Saturday, 07/07/01 03:19:35 GMT

new email for me...: Hey all. I have a new email addy.....

ralphd at
  Ralph - Sunday, 07/08/01 07:17:59 GMT

Pineapple Twist?: Awile back I saw a really cool twist in iron stock that sort of put you in the mind of barbed wire and I am almost 90% sure they called it a pinapple twist. Does does ayone here know how to do this kind of twist or can point me in the right direction to finding some directions on forgeing it. Thanks
  josh - Sunday, 07/08/01 11:08:06 GMT

Pineapple Twist:


iForge Demo ##11
  Paw+Paw+Wilson - Sunday, 07/08/01 13:10:57 GMT

Twist: thanks paw paw but that wasnt what I was thinking of, um..., what I saw was sort of like that only there were dimond shaped barbed points sticking out all over the twist, I guess it looked something like a REALLY rough round file almost. There also had to be a fair amount of hot cutting to get the spiked barbes but thats all I can figure out how they did it.
  josh - Sunday, 07/08/01 17:20:12 GMT


Did you read all the way through the demo? One of the twists near the end is the Pineapple twist. You can't see them very well in the pictures, but it does have diamond shaped "points" sticking out all over it.
  Paw+Paw+Wilson - Sunday, 07/08/01 17:30:18 GMT

Great! And an interesting twist, too. I may have to play with that one a bit.
  Paw+Paw+Wilson - Monday, 07/09/01 20:46:05 GMT

Something I forgot to mention. When you want to post a URL like the one you did, you can enter it into the "link URL" box below the name box, and it will be a hot link.
  Paw Paw Wilson - Monday, 07/09/01 20:48:18 GMT


Course it helps if you spell the information correctly! (embarassed grin)
  Paw Paw Wilson - Monday, 07/09/01 20:49:39 GMT


  Paw Paw Wilson - Monday, 07/09/01 20:50:37 GMT

OK, the last one is right!
  Paw Paw Wilson - Monday, 07/09/01 20:51:05 GMT

Pineapples and Thorns: I renamed it THE INQUISITION TWIST. You could thump somebody with it while they were on the rack.
  Frank Turley - Tuesday, 07/10/01 00:47:18 GMT

It'd sure make an impression, wouldn't it?

  Paw Paw Wilson - Tuesday, 07/10/01 02:24:53 GMT

inquisition twist: Ouch!
  Alan-L - Tuesday, 07/10/01 02:28:38 GMT

inquisition twist: Today I tried to make the twist and failed, what I did was take a piece of 1/2" square and cut 2 inward slopeing cuts probobly about 35 degres on all 4 sides about a inch apart then twisted it 180 degres and all it did was, well its kind of hard to describe without a pic but it dosen't look like the pic at all and there wasn't any change in the shape of the stock ether.
  josh - Tuesday, 07/10/01 03:06:49 GMT

NO INCISING: Josh. Let's keep it simple for starters. Using your 1/2" square,put a fairly tight twist on the bar so that the corners are close enough together to give the bar a nearly round appearance. Count the turns. Reforge the twist into a 1/2" square cross-section (just as though you didn't have better sense). Then heat and untwist about half the number of the original turns. When you get some positive results, *then* play with the lengthwise incising.
  Frank Turley - Tuesday, 07/10/01 04:00:44 GMT

Anvil apraisal: A retired horse shoer has an old trenton(?) #102 anvil. One of the edges has1/4" or so a step milled in it full length. I t has a small chunk broken off the center area of the other edge. It could be a Buel patent I couldn't make out the stamping. Any body have a fair price suggestion?
  Bill Maguire - Tuesday, 07/10/01 14:29:51 GMT

Equipment for Sale: Two 50# Little Giants, one early, one late style. Both very good. One 25# Little Giant that is undergoing a complete rebuild. Also available is one hammer that could be a Star brand. It has leaf springs and is in the 20# to 25# size range. Also have forge blowers, anvils, and post vices. Located in northwest Oklahoma. Delivery may be available.
  Mike George - Tuesday, 07/10/01 15:42:10 GMT

Swage blocks: Saltfork Craftsmen Artist-Blacksmiths Assoc. has developed a Swage block for its members and other blacksmiths. The idea was to get a high quality block with useful shapes into the hands of blacksmiths at a reasonable price. The blocks have a full range of half-rounds, multiple sized spoon and dipper shapes, and a nice shovel blank. The blocks are poured with new nodular iron. They weigh about 60 pounds and are approximately 12"x7"x4". They ship by UPS from Perry, OK. Cost is $75.00 plus shipping. Contact Jim Carothers, 580-336-9213, colonel at or Mike George, 580-327-5235, jmgeorge at
  Mike George - Tuesday, 07/10/01 16:00:12 GMT

Frank,: I was talking about the thorn twist, I can do the pinaple, although I don't think it looks as good as the demo pics do :)
  josh - Tuesday, 07/10/01 22:56:37 GMT

After you do about a 100, it'll look a lot better. Takes some practice.
  Paw Paw Wilson - Tuesday, 07/10/01 23:39:52 GMT

Smithing Opportunity: AnvilFire Community: Join the Saltfork Craftsmen at the Natinal John Deere 2-Cylinder Tractor Show July 20-22 a few miles East of Fairview, OK on Highway 8. Our club blacksmith shop on the Major County Historical Society Grounds will be open. Bring your portable equipment or use what we have on hand. This is always a well attended show; we expect to have a lot of fun. Jim C.
  Jim C. - Wednesday, 07/11/01 02:51:39 GMT

New Little Giant: I have a "New Little Giant" for sale!! It is in working condition but probably needs some work. I live in eastern New Mexico and would consider delivery to nieghboring states. Best reasonable offer takes it!!
  Marty Lavender - Wednesday, 07/11/01 02:55:38 GMT

John, if you are still reading here are you interested in going to the Tri-State in Pontiac? I would call but I lost your Phone number.
Dave White
  David White - Thursday, 07/12/01 17:19:15 GMT

The post above is for John Prichett in Springfield.
  Dave - Thursday, 07/12/01 17:20:28 GMT

Anvil Value: Bill, Sorry, I thought someone else would pipe up by now.
Anvil values are funny things. It all depends on who's buying and who's selling. Average price on almost all used anvils is $2/pound US. "Name" anvils in mint condition occasionaly go for $4/pound. But folks often get in a hurry and take less. Then occasionaly someone bids up an anvil on eBay that doesn't have a clue what anvil prices are and thinks that used sell for new prices or better.

Although a good used anvil is just as good as a NEW anvil the prices are much lower. New anvils vary from $7/pound to as low as $5/pound plus shipping.
  - guru - Friday, 07/13/01 22:04:18 GMT

my anvil: Yes! Well I just bought my first anvil, still comes out to 2.20# happy days happy days.
  Myke - Monday, 07/16/01 01:26:34 GMT

I just wanted to thank you and let you know that this is THE most inspiring site I have found! My check is in the mail join me up.
  Myke - Monday, 07/16/01 01:30:28 GMT

Good news! Both on the anvil, and on the membership.
  Paw+Paw+Wilson - Monday, 07/16/01 12:31:57 GMT

Slacktub: Is the slack tub pub exper. tech. problems or is it my computer??
  Stiffy - Tuesday, 07/17/01 16:38:47 GMT

No tecnical problems that I can see. I logged on, and read the log without an trouble.
  Paw Paw Wilson - Tuesday, 07/17/01 17:24:32 GMT

Hey Paw-Paw;
Now you have me strung out awaiting the next chapter of your story....good work!

Punchpress for sale; guess about 30 ton on a massive I beam frame. versitile set motor. $2000 or trade, central Ca coast area ( you dont want to even think about shipping this mother)
  Pete F - Wednesday, 07/18/01 06:54:00 GMT

Good! First of next month. (grin)
  Paw+Paw+Wilson - Wednesday, 07/18/01 14:32:42 GMT

I found an anvil 150# Valcon I think,80 yrs ols for $175.00 is that a good deal??
  Ghostdancer - Wednesday, 07/18/01 16:41:19 GMT

Depends a lot on the condition, but the price isn't bad. For that price, I'd expect the anvil to be in better than fair conditon. I would not expect it to be in NEW condition, however.
  Paw Paw Wilson - Wednesday, 07/18/01 17:12:32 GMT

Correction: The John Deere National 2-Cylinder Tractor Show in Fairview, Ok is this coming weekend -- July 20 & 21 -- Friday & Saturday only. Join the Saltfork Craftsmen ABA there for 2 fun days of smithing in our shop on the Major County Historical Society Grounds about 3 miles East of Fairview on Highway 8. More info at
Jim C.
  Jim C. - Thursday, 07/19/01 01:39:54 GMT

Forged Ax: I recently found an ax head with my metal detector at the sight of a town which no longer exists. It has a stamp on it "A.A. & T Company Pittsburg" It is forged in 2 halves. Would like to know more about the manufacturer.
  Ken - Thursday, 07/19/01 13:34:38 GMT

Ax: Ken, Pittsburg had a LOT of manufacturing going back to the mid 1800's. Hundreds have come and gone. I'm not sure where you would look.

I browsed through my old tool catalogs but most of what I have is industrial commercial stuff (machine and mechanics tools 1899 - 1920). I also tried the current Thomas Register AND a 1896 (Southern) Manufactures Record.
  - guru - Thursday, 07/19/01 16:48:38 GMT

Post Drill: I just purchased a post drill in pretty good shape. The only markings (that I've found) are " I ACME " (yes, I know it's the brand preferred by the roadrunner) :) It does not have an automatic feed, you turn the wheel at the top to increase the depth. The "chuck" appears to be a straight 1/2 inch hole. Does anyone know anything about this item? Appreciate it!
  Mark - Friday, 07/20/01 01:08:07 GMT

Take a look at the 21st Century page. Scroll down about 3/4ths of the page and there is an article about post drills, including some pictures.
  Paw Paw Wilson - Friday, 07/20/01 01:21:05 GMT

Just as a side note. Acme means top of the line.
From Websters : : the highest point or stage; also : one that represents perfection of the thing expressed

So Acme tools were supposed to be good quality tools. Just goes to show how Hollywood and TV have ruined another good thing. Since most folks associate ACME with the bumbling RoadRunner... :^(
  Ralph - Friday, 07/20/01 17:37:48 GMT

Virus Warning: Smithing Community: here's another virus warning for you all. I saw this one three times today -- Two Spanish & One English version.

W32.Sircam.Worm at mm Discovered on: July 17, 2001 Last Updated on: July 19, 2001 at 09:28:18 AM
PDT SirCam is a sophisticated worm that will
infect files shared over an open network so
most people will never see the original
infected e-mail associated with the worm.
Also known as: IW32/SirCam at mm, Backdoor.SirCam
Subject of email: The subject of the email
will be random, and will be the same as the file
name of the attachment in the email.
Body:: The message body will be semi-random,
but will always contain one of the following
two lines (either English or Spanish) as the
first and last sentences of the message.
Spanish Version:
First line: Hola como estas ?
Last line: Nos vemos pronto, gracias.
English Version:
First line: Hi! How are you?
Last line: See you later. Thanks
  Jim C. - Saturday, 07/21/01 00:12:18 GMT

Forge Braseing: Hey guys, I was wondering what you need to do forge braseing cause I've oviously never done it before. I do have some plane ol' borax though, and I can scrounge up some brass too, is that all I'll need? The reason I ask is I want to brase on a guard on one of my knives, I've already rivited it with stainless steel rivits too THIS SUCKER ITS'N MOVIN' :) , besides it would give it a different look anyway. Thanks
  josh - Monday, 07/23/01 03:55:22 GMT

The easiest way would be to use an Oxyacetelyne (sp?) torch.

I've done it in the forge, but I suspect you don't want to get the blade hot enough to braze. If you do that, you wind up having to re-finish the blade.
  Paw+Paw+Wilson - Monday, 07/23/01 16:19:15 GMT

well what I figure is, I'm going to triple normalize then Double quench and then quench again exept this time I will brase the guard before I quench it. and then the tempering prosses won't get hot enouf to melt the brass, I also want a little of the melted brass on the blade too it might make it look cooler. Well I'm off now to see how it will work I'll tell ya later on tonight how it whent
  josh - Monday, 07/23/01 18:13:56 GMT

Ralph what the word means and what the trademark means do not have to be the same. Acme was used a lot in the 1906 Sears&Roebuck catalog for one of their
  Thomas Powers - Monday, 07/23/01 19:41:53 GMT

Acme: Actually it was Wile E. Coyote (the Roadrunners nemesis) that used ACME branded products most likely in manners that usually exceeded their designated safety limits. Since ACME also means "peak", it is no wonder that Ol' Wile E. looked a bit "peak-ed" after he misused those products!!! :)
  Bryan - Tuesday, 07/24/01 06:14:04 GMT

Thomas, that is true, but Prior to the 20th century, acme(the definition and symbol) was a byword for excellence and quality.
  Ralph - Tuesday, 07/24/01 06:18:13 GMT

Forge brazed guards: In my experience, those smears of melted brass on the blade just look like a poor job. And, yes, I've done it too! A hairline fillet around the joint looks good, more is just messy, in my opinion.
  Alan-L - Tuesday, 07/24/01 14:54:19 GMT

Off Topic--Space Launch! (Some metalworking content.): They're going to catch the solar wind on super-clean metal surfaces:

I will be out of the office from Friday, July 27th to Wednesday, August 1st to attend the launching of my brother-in-law's spacecraft down at Cape Canaveral. This is a two year mission to study the solar wind, the first study of its type since the Apollo astronauts spread some aluminum foil on the moon.

Knowing your eclectic tastes for knowledge, you may want to visit the mission website at:

A 5 minute NPR audio report on Genesis can be found at

Just so I don't feel like too much of a slacker, I will also try to pay a visit to the Canaveral National Seashore administrative headquarters and check out their new space and alterations.

NASA/Cal Tech Genesis Mission
  Bruce Blackistone (Atli) - Wednesday, 07/25/01 15:42:14 GMT

power hammers: I saw a web site of a place in Florida that sells a kit for a power hammer in the style of a Pettingill or a Yoder.

Does anyone know of a person that has built one?
I am only interested in sheetmetal forming, so the fact that the anvil hammer/ weight ratio doesn't look like it could be anywhere near 15/1 means that this hammer is probably not the thing for serious iron work, but might suite my purposes. Any thoughts? Thanks JR
  Jerry Roy - Thursday, 07/26/01 02:48:22 GMT

power hammers: I saw a web site of a place in Florida that sells a kit for a power hammer in the style of a Pettingill or a Yoder.

Does anyone know of a person that has built one?
I am only interested in sheetmetal forming, so the fact that the anvil hammer/ weight ratio doesn't look like it could be anywhere near 15/1 means that this hammer is probably not the thing for serious iron work, but might suite my purposes. Any thoughts? Thanks JR
  Jerry Roy - Thursday, 07/26/01 03:04:25 GMT

I looked at the web site. Looks way to light to do much with. Might work for sheet metal.
  Paw Paw Wilson - Thursday, 07/26/01 11:48:20 GMT

Knifemaking: Josh, What the heck are you talking about? Triple normalize and quench????? You don't quench after normalizing and you do this only once. Sounds like you have been listening to knife salesmen. . .

Tempering needs to be done immediately after hardening. Learn your heat treating before worrying about the rest.

Modern makers silver solder the guard on to the finished blade. Since the tang needs to be tempered almost to the annealing point the heat doesn't matter much. However, to protect the blade it is clamped close to the guard in a heavy vise to act as a heat sink. Then a small torch is used very carefuly. As Alan pointed out, any extra braze or solder that shows is considered poor quality work. The better the bladesmith the less solder you can see.

Forge brazing is probably not appropriate for blade work. You might try inventing a technique of your own. . Like using a heavy set of tongs heated to a red heat and then clamping them on the tang to provide heat for silver soldering. No fire or dirt on the blade!
  - guru - Thursday, 07/26/01 22:47:28 GMT

Sheet Metal Hammer: I don't know anyone that has used one of these but they are typical of sheet metal machines. However, even the comercial models were not rigid enough. See the photos on the Power hammer Page.

One option a lot of folks are using for sheet metal work is a small hand held air hammer mounted in a C frame. The ones with a cylindrical body are mounted in a tube so they can slide up and down. The force is varied by adding or subtracting weight on top of the hammer.
  - guru - Thursday, 07/26/01 22:52:04 GMT

Saltfork Craftsmen Meeting: The August Meeting of the Saltfork Craftsmen ABA will be on Saturday the 11th in Ames, Oklahoma. The meeting will coincide with the town of Ames Centennial Celebration and will also serve as a demonstration / teaching opportunity for the club. All are welcome to come join us for a great day of rural town fun and smithing under the large old shade trees.
Finding Ames, OK: Ames is SW of Enid, OK between State Highways 8 and 132. The meeting site is 1/2 block South of Main Street and about half way through town. We plan to meet up around 8:30 AM or so. For more information contact Ron Lehenbauer at 580-758-1126 (therustyanvil at or Jim Carothers at 580-336-9213 (colonel at Bring your portable smithing equipment or just show up and use what we will have on hand. Tailgate items are welcome.
  Jim C. - Friday, 07/27/01 02:19:01 GMT

VIRUS WARNING: The trojan SIRCAM is still making the rounds. It has been upgraded to public enemy #1. DO NOT open attachements (even from people you know) and be sure to upgrade your virus scanning software or it won't catch it. I've had it sent to me by several SPAMMERS that go hit and it also effects other computers on a network. So if one person in a business environment opens it, EVERYONE on the network becomes inffected and starts sending mail. On top of spammers I've had TWO companies that left their inffected computers running unatended send me the virus mail over and over.

The result is that this virus is still spreading and being sent to millons of computer users. Several people with virus scanning software have gotten hit because they don't realize that all the software does is look for KNOWN viruses. They do nothing about new ones.

If you rely on this type software you are always still vulnerable! You still need to personaly take responsibility for peventing the spread. ALL these viruses take advantage of the bad design of Microdoft mail products and those that have coppied them (SHEEP!) thinking it keeps them competitive. This new virus is so virulent that I have recieved it from dozens of people I do not know.

Without the problems knowingly created and continued to be supported by Microsoft you would almost NEVER hear of a web virus. Old viruses were spread from one person (PC) to another. But Microsoft systems let one infected computer spread to hundreds or even thousands (everyone in the address book). And then each of those that become infected and run Outlook will again send it to hundreds or thousands again.

Nuclear chain reactions only multiply by two with each generation. But MS based web viruses multiply by hundreds with each generation. They span the entire planet in a few hours. They spread so fast it is almost impossible to trace their origin. But for some sick reason Bill Gates LIKES it that way. . .

If you use MS Outlook (it comes on EVERY Win 95-2K system) then YOU are also part of the problem.

HARSH? Yes. I've had this virus sent to me hundreds of times in the past week. I recognize the files and delete them AND the attachments as they come in. I've sent return mail to the people sending me these virus files warning them that they have a problem. I have yet to recieve ONE "thank you for warning me". This recent virus supported by a system Bill Gates LIKES has cost me hundreds of dollars worth of my time and globaly BILLIONS.

I've used EUDORA Lite since I started using the net. I have been infected by several viruses because of my own ocassional stupidity. However, because I do not use MS mail services my computer has NEVER infected another.

Stop using MS-Outlook! When you stop, be sure to remove ALL its files from your machine. That old address book is still an open sore in a virus infected world!
  - guru - Friday, 07/27/01 16:17:04 GMT

SirCamTrojan: Let me echo the guru's comments. I've deleted the messages and attachments MANY times (not sure how many) in the last few days. I'm still getting them

I goofed and opened one message because it was from a friend. Then it took me almost two days to get it completely removed from my system and the network here at the house.

Folks, I'm not new to the computer game. I operated a bulletin board service here in Winston for over 11 years. My first DOS computer was DOS 4.0. I beta tested DOS 6.00.125 Beta version. Most of this is old hat to me.

I have NEVER used Interenet Exploder. I have NEVER used Upchuck Express. Scuse me, that should be Explorer and Outlook.

Nor will I. They're so full of holes that the progam code looks like swiss cheese!
  Paw Paw Wilson - Friday, 07/27/01 17:06:34 GMT

Microsoftcheese: naah Pawpaw you are much too kind. if you print the code I bet you would get only part of the paper out from printer and that would be konfetti style.
I have spent 3 days cleaning my fathers Puter from another virus. sent to him from another person which he trusted. He sadly refuses to understand that people can have puter-virus without knowing it.
his virus programme is not even updated anymore but i am not alowed to replace with a new as it would cost him some(and what does a new puter cost??).

sad but true.
  OErjan - Friday, 07/27/01 19:58:20 GMT

Auction:: Just to let you all know, Bill has some Hand Made Scroll Jigs for sale on the Auction Site !
Anvilfire TOOL Auction
  Kiwi NZ - Friday, 07/27/01 21:16:08 GMT

I understand your father's reluctance to getting a new program, but you need to talk him into it, OR buy it for him as a birthday, Christmas, present of some kind.

I don't blame the person that SirCam came to me from. I think I caught it before it went out from me to anyone else, but am not sure.

It can and does happen.
  Paw Paw Wilson - Friday, 07/27/01 21:27:18 GMT

Upgrading antivirals: true. but he has the new McAfee's VirusScan 5.21 for Windows on his desk, I gave him two weeks ago.
  OErjan - Saturday, 07/28/01 14:47:14 GMT

Upgrading antivirals: true. but he has the new McAfee's VirusScan 5.21 for Windows on his desk, I gave him two weeks ago.
  OErjan - Saturday, 07/28/01 14:47:21 GMT

Well done. Now do the profiles need up-dated? That can be done just by logging onto their web-site, and I *THINK* (don't know for sure) that is free to registered software owners.
  Paw+Paw+Wilson - Saturday, 07/28/01 15:06:33 GMT

Upgrading antivirals: The problem with this virus is that I don't believe it is two weeks old. That makes a two week old antiviral file worthless. And with slimery authors the problem gets worse.
The ploy, "please check out this file and tell me what you think" has suckered millions of people in just DAYS. I have had mail from at LEAST four spammers. That means it went out to MILLIONS from just these four "infections". These guys use CD's loaded with almost every email address on the planet!

It gets a LOT worse folks. The infected files the virus sends out are YOUR PERSONAL FILES! Yes, they are infected but your information is still there! I just recieved a fellows 1999 tax returns!!! That means that not only do I have his financial information but I have his entire families including their social security numbers! Everyone in his address book and everyone on his network's address books recieved this same file! The file can be cleaned and I have the information. In the past week I have recieved dozens of personal files including spreadsheets, databases, personal letters. . . .

This is NOT a minor inconvienience. It is a HUGE problem and it is Bill Gates' fault. No one elses.
  - guru - Saturday, 07/28/01 16:12:48 GMT

Sir Cam Trojan:
Just a small comment about anti-virus companies.

Normally, McAfree and Norton almost take turns in detecting and finding solutions for the various Trojans, Worms, and Virii. One time Norton will be first with a solution, another time, McAfree will be first.

But with the Sir Cam Trojan, Trendmicro (See URL above) was first. They are usually third, but this time they were on the ball.
  Paw+Paw+Wilson - Saturday, 07/28/01 16:34:09 GMT

virus: for a good free anti-virus program try
  Mark Parkinson - Saturday, 07/28/01 17:43:56 GMT

virus and fault: Jock, How is it Gate's fault? Did he write the virus?
Not that I am trying to defend him, but it seems a tad bit harsh to blame him for some assholes virus. I think these virus creators should be given a tour of the working end of the largest power hammers.....
  Ralph - Saturday, 07/28/01 22:38:49 GMT

Fault: Gates is the CEO of Microsnot.

Microsnot's products are full of security holes.

Virus's attack through those security holes.

Microsnot has been informed MILLIONS of times of the
holes in their products.

Microsnot continues to insist that there are no holes,
in total defiance of massive proof.

With the authority (CEO) goes the responsibility.

I say again, Gates is the CEO of Microsnot.

  Paw+Paw+Wilson - Sunday, 07/29/01 00:27:36 GMT

Bill Gates: The problem is 100% Bill Gates Fault. Not only is he CEO of Microsoft he is also a key player in the design of every part of Windows. It is HIS stuborn insistance that email have pretty pictures, play music, display animations, ALL automaticaly that creates the problem. That is followed by also letting the e-mail automaticaly launch other programs through macros including the basic interperter. EVERYONE in computer security has warned and complained that this is BAD BAD BAD. Only one "expert" thinks its good. Bill Gates.

The problem is so bad that many of the virus programs are the creations of average 13 and 14 year olds. All you have to do is sit down in a Microsoft product and let it copy your key strokes into a macro, then mail that macro to someone else and if they use Outlook then that macro will do whatever it was told to do. That includes everything from erase all your files to mailing itself to everyone in you address book.

It gets worse. There are sites on the net where anyone can get information on how to do this AND much more sophisticated things, that include sample code and how to modify it. People with no programing experiance (called "script kiddies") can modify one of these programs and go into business.

One of the things these people do with virus type programs is commandeer other computers for use in Denial of Service (DoS) attacks. This is when hundreds of computers send malformed requests for information to a web server as fast as they can send them. These multiple errors quickly overload the server and it stops running.

I am SURE you have heard of DoS attacks against major providers like AOL and thought that it took a coordinated effort by a well organized group of hackers. No it doesn't. All it takes is ONE teenager with a PC. It doesn't even have to belong to him. It can be a school or library terminal that has access to the web. See the link below.

The programs that do these things have complete access to YOUR computer if it is infected with the trojan or backdoor program. That includes reading YOUR mail. Copying YOUR files. Capturing YOUR credit card numbers and passwords. Most of these programs work very quietly in the background and do nothing overt to let you know it is on your machine.

This is ALL made possible by Bill Gates and his childish stuborness.

In the UNIX world, when a security hole is found in the OS or a mail program or any other component it is rapidly identifed and quickly repaired. It is then distributed widely. All future distributions have the fix built in. THESE are the actions of reasonable responsible adults.

In the Microsoft world security holes are first denied. This is Bill Gate's decision and corporate policy. Then more complaints are made they are ignored. Again Bill Gates decision. Finally when something MUST be done Microsoft writes a patch then hides it on their web server. Now if anyone complains about a security hole they proudly state that the solution is easily avaiable on our web site!

But Microsoft does NOT fix the problem in future distributions. The "problems" with Windows are "design features". Not fixing them is Bill Gates' personal decision.

On the web servers are hacked every day. Approximately half of the total are servers running Microsoft web software. This doesn't sound bad until you realize that only 10% of all web servers (public not private Intranets) run Microsoft web server. This means that almost every server running Microsoft web software has been hacked and many more than once!

Not ALL the fault lies with Bill Gates and Microsoft. The public is part of the problem too. That means YOU. If you use MS Outlook you are part of the problem. If you run MS webserver you are part of the problem. If you allow your computer to be comandeered by child on the other side of the planet you are part of the problem.

You could also say that if you don't learn to operate your PC correctly you are part of the problem but that is no longer true. Windows and web softeare is much TOO complicated for the average person to learn everything about that they need to know to secure their system from invasion. I have been a professional programmer and I am now a professional web developer (on top of everything else) and *I* do not understand NEARLY enough about the operations of Windows to call myself an expert.

SO, we expect the experts that create these systems that are much too complicated for even computer professionals to understand to take care of the safety and security of these systems. In the case of desktop PC's Microsoft has a monopoly and that makes them the responsible party. Microsoft is owned primarliy by Bill Gates and run with an iron hand by the same Bill Gates and THAT makes it HIS responsibility.

Microsoft won't even make the default settings on their software the "safe" settings. Every one of these needs to have a large warning that if you turn this or that ON you are opening holes that viruses are going to use.

When Windows was a desktop or office program and not run on the World Wide Web it was not a problem. Viruses existed but were rare. When the WWW first exploded on the world MS did not have a large part in it. Other parties made the browsers and e-mail programs and they took responsibility for the security. But then Bill Gates decided HE should own the WWW and started integrating the MS browser and e-mail products into Windows which already was a desktop monopoly. When Bill Gates and MS took this step they became responsible to the public for the security of those systems. But they have not taken that responsibility. AND again this is Bill Gates personal decision NOT to do so.

The biggest reason to break up the Microsoft monopoly is to save the Internet. . . Because the problems are rapidly getting much worse.
DoS Attacks
  - guru - Sunday, 07/29/01 16:30:13 GMT

Anti-Virus Programs: Do not trust these programs to protect you. Because the security of Windows programs is so poor viruses spread globaly in hours. It often takes a week or more for the Anti Virus companies to identify a signiture for a new virus and deploy a cure. It often takes longer to identify ALL the things a virus does and the proper cure. After they have done their part YOU must download and install the upgrade. Normaly a week to ten days has past.

Meanwhile the virus may have infected your computer and been sent to everyone you know or ever sent mail to or ever THOUGHT about sending mail to and saved their address. And in the case of SIRCAM, every person in every other address book on the network (LAN) you may be attached to. I have recieved this virus hundreds of times from people I do not know.

In the past couple years my machine has been infected twice by accident or through my stupidity. But is has never sent out a virus infected mail. WHY? Because I do not use a Microsoft mail product. I use Eudora Lite (its FREE).

If everyone used other programs the virus writers would write viruses for those mail systems. But it would be much more difficult. If they did so the authors of the mail programs would likely fix the problem ASAP unlike Bill Gates. So viruses would exist but they would be much less common.

Note that the NEW full versions of Eudora have features that viruses can exploit. It is not virus proof, but it is much safer than Microsoft products. Another FREE email product is Pegusus Mail. It allows mulitple email accounts and is also very safe to use. But I'm not crazy about its interface.

Anti Virus programs do ONE good job. They search your system for known viruses. It is a good idea to scan your system with them once in a while. But DO NOT trust them to defend you against NEW viruses. They cannot. And they must also be upgraded to do their job.

Use them, but do not rely on them!

Eudora Lite and Pro
  - guru - Sunday, 07/29/01 18:13:23 GMT

So once again I ask why is it Bill Gate's fault that some snot nosed asshole of a kid is writing a virus? It is the fault of the kid. True Gates has not helped the problem with his refusal to fix holes. But it is still not his fault that the kid has no concept of right or wrong. If people held the true culpretes accountable and they were punished accordingly perhaps things would change.
Is it Smith and Wessons fault that their product was used by kids to kill other kids? The revolver is and easy gun to load, and it is not too hard to carry or shoot. SO perhaps all the liberal gun rights folks are correct that it is th emanufactorers faults. Or the tobacco industry. True they minimized the bad aspect, but for over 25 years the Govt had stated smoking can be bad for you. So should a person who smoked for 25 years and gets cancer get 100's of millions of dollars? I think not, but our society has said yes, because we are not being held accountable for our OWN actions!
  Ralph - Monday, 07/30/01 20:13:08 GMT

Well, from that point, you're right. But when the product is so full of holes and has been for so long, doesn't the manufacturer have SOME responsibility?

If a Smith and Wesson blew up when fired, (becuase of faulty manufacture) and took your hand off, would you not sue S&W?

That's the situation with Microsnot! They are KNOWINGLY producing a faulty product, and have been for years! Are they not responsible for THAT!

Now if they had fixed each hole as it was discovered, that would be another situation entirely.
  Paw Paw Wilson - Tuesday, 07/31/01 01:44:08 GMT

Fault: I have NO love of Bill Gates or Microsoft. And I'm not enough of a computer guy to know the ins and outs of the security holes. But I have to say I agree completely with Ralph. Punishment belongs on the back of those who did wrong. The more the viruses go unpunished, the more they will occur. Sadly, the only way the problem will get solved is when someone starts to lose a lot more money from viruses.

And I also agree that a manufacturer has a responsibility to put out a product that I can reasonably use without harming others. But market forces will take care of that eventually. No one is forced to buy microsoft product. I, as a consumer, have the ability to choose what products I buy. Microsoft should fix the holes.

And No, I DO NOT think the gun manufacturers are at fault for making a good revolver. Crimes of passion will always exist. I blame the parents of the kids, and the legal system, AND THE LAWYERS, for the rest. No crime, no reason to have lawyers and cops and judges. Do you really think they will work themselves out of a job???

Have I mentioned my version of prison????? Grin.

But Ralph, on the tobacco thing, don't forget that the govenment subsidized the tobacco industry for how long? Still? Our government... protecting it's citizens? No, more like lining it's own pockets!

Thanks for the discussion. I learned a little bit more once again!
  Tony - Tuesday, 07/31/01 03:03:26 GMT

The automobile has safety standards that the manufacturer must conform to if it wishes to market in the US. Same with most other products. Why not For computers and its security as well. If they were still a toy such as the car at the turn of the century, no action would be taken. Computers are not a toy nor have they been for sometime. Why should I buy a car for the purpose of my livlihood THEN need to constantly tinker with it such as retrofitting hydraulic brakes or maybe turnsignals because the mega car company says that there isn't really a safety issue but if it will make you feel better......... No sir I have several Items to build that I think will make abunch of money but I won't turn em loose til I am personally sure of there safety. I believe that corporations should be held to as high a standard.

Then lets go get the little snots who keep jacking with us and turn 'em into fine upstanding citizens or at least give em a chance to make amends before we hang em!

I'll stop my tirade now.
  Mills - Tuesday, 07/31/01 04:10:45 GMT

Bill Gates:: Is at fault because he sells a product to the public including the entire planet. There is not one continent, country, province or region anywhere that there are not PC's running Windows and hooked to the Internet.

This product is used by people with absolute NO computer skills and including every age group. It has been specificaly targeted at people who do not want to get into the technical side of using a computer (mousey point and click, graphical interface).

Computer viruses and hacking were and are a commonly known problem in the computer world before Windows 1.0 was released.

These are commonly known facts to most people. Those with any technical expertise know the REAL depth of the problems.

Anytime you include the entire world population in something you must expect the criminal element as well as kids pulling "pranks" or even terrorists to be a part of what you are involved in.

THIS IS REALITY. The first virus I had experiance with was the Jerusalem Friday the 13th virus. This was a DOS virus that was spread by infected files. On October Friday the 13th (1988 I think) it went berserk and errased all your files. It was thought to have been written by an anti-semitic cyber terrorist as it was first discovered in Isreal in significant numbers. The program was relatively sophisticated code written in assembler.

That virus spread primarily by shared diskettes. I got a copy of it on a DOS 3.2 diskette that came from a computer maker!

THIS IS REALITY. Bill Gates ignores the reality of the monster that HE created! Computer viruses are part of the REAL WORLD. Criminals are part of the REAL world. Bill Gates insists on ignoring the facts of life in the REAL WORLD. He has a global monopoly on computer operating systems used to access the Internet. He has added integrated software into that operating system that lets cyber criminals run wild on the Internet.

It is time that the US Government break up this monopoly and if they are smart they would take the OS away from his control.
  - guru - Tuesday, 07/31/01 06:53:00 GMT

Bad Code: CAN computer hacking and viruses be stopped? Is it realistically possible to truly *stop* that activity? Seems like our government wants to do it to us. The new FBI surveilance software??? Trust the government to do the job right? NO! We should be able to, but we can't.

We all know human nature supplies the desire to do bad. And yes, criminals will always exist. But is it technically feasable to stop viruses and cyberterrorism? And if it's technically possible, is it worth the time and effort? I'm a user, not a programmer. One of those who does not want to see the code. But I do dislike sloppy code when it stops me from doing what I want. And when it does that, I move on to other software if I can.

Again, I don't think anything will happen to reduce viruses or hacking until it has MORE of a monetary impact. We don't see new regulations until the money drives them. Right and wrong don't matter enough anymore.

Again, I agree that microsoft or any other software manufacturer should fill the known holes. Having pride in a good product SHOULD apply. But you can't force that. I would be mortified to find that I had sent an infected e-mail. But so far, I don't think I have. And I do use outlook express. But I don't open the attachments. Why is it so difficult for people not to perpetuate the problem? I don't see the difficulty. And honestly, I've had much more problems with sloppy code from Corel, Autodesk and PTC than I've had with microsoft. I've seen REAL dollars go down the drain with those other softwares!

Mills, I don't think we should hang the hackers and virus generators, but I DO think we should punish them and/or those who should be watching them. Hanging is too easy on them. Making a kid or his parents work the rest of their lives if necessary to payback those damaged does more good in my opinion than hanging them. And I agree on not letting products out to market unless they are safe. I have a 4 wheel steering system on one of my vehicles that I designed and built for off road use. Others want it real bad and I could make some serious change. But it should not be used on the highway and I can just see some minivan full of a kids soccer team getting wiped out because some idiot didn't lock out the 4 wheel steering and was showing his buddy how cool it was. Nope. Not worth the money to me.

Are viruses a safety issue? Seems to me that it's just a money issue.

Would it be most effective to stop viruses and spam at the service provider level?

I might be one of those ignorant ones who doesn't understand the problem. But If I, the ignorant, can stop from spreading the disease, why can't others? What am I missing?

I wholeheartedly disagree that the government should decide what to do in terms of a breakup of microsoft. Is there anyone who thinks their phone service is cheaper or better since the breakup of AT&T? Regulations? Maybe. But they should come from industry experts, NOT the government. The government is a much worse business monopoly. And how sad is that? Just my opinion.
  Tony - Tuesday, 07/31/01 12:43:27 GMT

Safety Issue:: Yes, Viruses ARE a safety issue. When certain viruses proliferate uncontrolably as we one do a few years ago, they can interrupt telecomunications. This means that your call to E911 may not work or the dispatch computers are overloaded and locked up. Important news services such as weather that we rely on to inform us to evacuate may not work. During hurricane season this could but the lives of millions at risk.

The problem with Outlook is that by default it opens attachments to "preview" them. Then is has access to the entire OS and integrated software to perform virtualy any possible task. This is bad, bad, bad. And it is NOT a security "hole" it is a design FEATURE that Bill Gates defends in the face of all evidence. Beyond that the Microsoft network and webserver progams are so full of holes they make them a hackers dream.

Many computer "hackers" are benign and in some cases actually heroic. They probe software systems as a challange to find holes and once found they report the problem to the software distributor and if they don't respond to the problem to they are morally compelled to go public. Often this requires a demonstration of the problem. Hackers have demonstrated OVER and OVER and OVER that the MS systems are not suitable for web-hosting.

In the case of our Sysop, Kiwi, the demonstration embarrased a powerful corporation that apparently owns the government of New Zealand. Because instead of thanking him for pointing out that anyone that wanted to obtain all the telephone company's records they have spent years prosecutting him for damages of the official amount of 5 cents NZ (about 2 cents US).

On the other hand. Bill Gates through his purposeful actions makes it possible for people with no programming skills to create a Trojan and spread it globaly on the Internet. This also makes it possible for people with REAL programming skills to distribute very sophisticated viruses that collect your passwords to e-mail, banking and anything else you access with your PC.

This makes Bill Gates an international public menace.

I am usualy very careful about flaming and making accusations on these pages but I have absolutely HAD IT with Microsoft related virus problems. This morning I had no less than 10 copies of SIRCAM virus mail in my mailbox. Several of these had HUGE attachments taking several minutes to download. There is one coming in NOW. Its costing ME time and money, its costing EVERYONE in increased telephone rates due to increases in bandwidth. AND its keeping me from doing the things I need to do to provide YOU with new blacksmithing information. And its Bill Gates' fault.
  - guru - Tuesday, 07/31/01 14:57:58 GMT

Cost of Stopping Viruses at Provider level:: Viruses ON servers are stopped by the security systems on the servers. Most UNIX systems are relatively secure. Ours was just updated due to a recently discovered security problem. That is how it works in the UNIX world (even the free versions of Linux).

This does not make our server hacker proof, but it stops most known threats.

On Windows NT servers there is a constant rain of "patches" that administrators must keep up with. However, the majority of network administrators using windows are in small businesses and do not have nearly enough knowledge to secure the system.

E-mail viruses are often filtered at Corp Network level. Many better run intranets (such as the one you are probably on Tony) filter all incoming and outgoing traffic. This is a full time job for someone with a high level of skill. These same people setup the mail clients on all the computers on the network and set the paramenters to the safe conditions. Thus you may be being protected but do not know it.

However, many Silicon Valley corps do not let anyone use Outlook on their systems at all because of the gross problems.

The problem is the hundreds of millions of non-secure Windows running machines attached to the internet that are operated by people and businesses that don't have a clue. It is very easy for Microsoft to make the mail systems on these computers secure. But Bill Gates doesn't want it that way.
  - guru - Tuesday, 07/31/01 15:46:05 GMT

Gates the menace: I was assuming that servers for things like emergency response, telecommunications, the power grid, etc. were better protected than our typical e-mail. Maybe that was a bad assumption, like many assumptions are. Point taken on the safety issue. I guess I'm more ignorant on this issue than I thought. Not that it makes me feel any better, but that's why I was asking the questions. Thanks for the replies.

I should also say that I'm sure that it IS causing you a world of hurt and a big waste of time and money. I do, and have from the beginning, recognized that.

Am I deluding my self that I'm OK if I don't open the attachments in outlook express?

As far as flames or temperment go.... Hey, this is your site and we all appreciate it. As far as I'm concerned, flame away! Grin. You have the reason to and the right.

I won't perpetuate your time spent with any more of my questions or opinions. At least not on *this* issue. Grin!
  Tony - Tuesday, 07/31/01 16:56:06 GMT

'Written/posted on the forum by mistake'
IMO a flame is an Unsubstantiated attack by someone who probably doesn't know what they are talking about (you know who I'm talkin about, don't you Tony? starts w F) (BG)
I don't think in this instance you qualify as a flamer. Looks to me that you do understand the problem and have been working diligently to slow/stop the madness.
To that end Just like the first aid discussion of last year, I am going to suspend smithing and work on computing for a bit. Any advice for OS? I saw the email links. I have thought about trying Linux. I have an older system that I could blow the dust off of and use it for experimentation. I could really use a computer site like this one is for smithing. know of any good ones before I fly off into the great unknown?

Mills -- mills_fam2 at - Tuesday, 07
  Mills - Tuesday, 07/31/01 21:33:29 GMT

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