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June 2006 Archive

WHY THREE FORUMS? Well, this is YOUR blacksmithing forum to use for whatever you wish within the rules stated above. It is different than the Slack-Tub Pub because the messages are permanently posted and archived.
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Our chat, the (Slack-Tub Pub), is immediate but the record of it is temporary. DO NOT post permanent messages there. We refresh the "log" every 24 hours now and your message will be lost.

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J. Dempsey  <webmaster> Rev. 7/98, 3/99, 5/2k, 6/2k, Friday, 04/06/01 16:43:25 GMT

Punchpresses: These machines can be tooled up for an amazing array of jobs, but as noted by Thomas need to be able to complete the cycle, and not suited for freehand forging. The second to the worst thing that happens when the cycle cannot be completed is getting stuck on bottom dead center. Sometimes the use of dry ice on the pitman and ram combined with heating the frame of the press will free it up, otherwise the tooling gets sacrificed with a cutting torch.
Dave Boyer - Wednesday, 05/31/06 22:58:07 EDT

Punchpresses and Forging:
As noted they are not a power hammer. However, I've known a few people to use them for such. It works as long the work is good and hot and you ALWAYS overpower it. All it takes is one small mistake to wreck the press. You might note that this one under discussion had a brand new clutch bushing. . . I commented about a punch press someone I know was using for a specific job. they said "Oh, yeah, works great". A month later the machine was gone. . broken frame.

I NEVER recommend using them for a power hammer. However, they are great tools for other things. Most jobs require some engineering know how.

The reason they are being junked is that most are impossible to make OSHA safe and insurance companies are demanding they be replaced. If you have no employees you can get away with using them. The old ones are particularly bad because the clutches tend to engage on their own just any old time. . . lots of fingers and hands have been lost under these machines. Never hand feed one where you can get caught in the machine.
- guru - Thursday, 06/01/06 07:54:21 EDT

More on Punch presses:
Another reason they are being junked is tooling costs. Unless your die is fairly simple tooling can be very expensive. Modern plasma, laser and water jet cutting have replaced them for a lot of blanking work. Most of the time all these processes need is a CAD drawing and you are ready to go.
- guru - Thursday, 06/01/06 08:14:01 EDT

SHOOTING IN YOUR HEAD: I will N E V E R install a punch press in my smithy It should not be alowed! It is very industrial machine adjusted for long run operations with safety systems that everyone bypasses.
Putting a machine like this in the forge is like "shooting in your head" please take my advice.
hofi - Thursday, 06/01/06 09:59:16 EDT

punch presses: When I was a young guy, I worked one summer in the fab department of a factory. I was helping a guy try to start a new coil of 12 gage steel thru the 10 station progressive die, which was in a 300 ton bliss press. There were many stops which had to be manually slid in & out as you worked the steel thru each station. We were using pry bars & mallets to convince the metal to cooperate. About halfway thru, the guy hit the jog button & instead of a couple of inches movement of the ram, a seal blew out of the brake & the thing tried to make a complete cycle. We were smart enough to not to have our hands in the press, but those poor pry bars & mallets (and the die itself) got smashed. Sure taught me a lesson that I not forgotten!
Mike Sa
- Mike Sa - Thursday, 06/01/06 13:34:06 EDT

Shipping Anvil: Looking for experiences / suggestions on the best method to ship a 120lb anvil. Anvil is approx 550 miles from where I need it. TIA, Dennis
- DennisM - Thursday, 06/01/06 16:14:23 EDT

I added some more photos to the page. there's an image of a Bradlee (hammer, press??) that I need to play with to make it visible.
- Michael - Thursday, 06/01/06 19:15:24 EDT

Klockars again:

Forgot the link
Michael - Thursday, 06/01/06 19:16:33 EDT

Shipping Anvil: DennisM, I suggest a trucking/freight company. I used Old Dominion about 13 years ago. A 101 LB. Peter Wright from Ohio to North Florida was about $130.00. Expensive but less than driving to pick it up. It will be more now cause of oil prices. Call different companies in the area, don't be afraid to ask for discounts. Good luck
R Guess - Thursday, 06/01/06 23:33:22 EDT

DennisM - I would look at UPS & FedX ground also. I had a 100lb post vice shipped to me by UPS from Maine to CA for about $45 a couple years ago. Don't box it, just glue or tape the address label right on the face. It is easier for them to move and pic up if it's not in some makeshift box or crate. Saves on weight also.

FredlyFX - Friday, 06/02/06 14:04:44 EDT

Coke , coal or gas whats your preference?

Personally i am running a coke forge , though i have used charcoal in the past. It was rather expensive , but the fire was rather clean ;)

Berty Stubbs
Berty Stubbs - Friday, 06/02/06 14:12:47 EDT

Coal, Charcoal and Gas: I tend to save any rick charcoal (and any bags of commercial lump charcoal given to me by friends) for historic demos or special jobs that need clean fuel.

I use a small, one burner Whisper Baby gas forge for any quick or small stuff, and some not so small stuff with the back hatch open. Very economical.

The coal forge is for big jobs and forge welds.

For really big stuff, like sleigh runners, I'll go outside and build a quick custom charcoal forge with either my medieval-style bellows or a spare blower, using a batch of loose bricks kept at the forge.

Hazy, hot and humid and a line of thunderstorms coming this way. (...per the NWS, a site of endless information and updates.)

Visit your National Parks:

Go viking:

National Weather Service
Bruce Blackistone (Atli) - Friday, 06/02/06 15:37:39 EDT

Berty, yes definitely! Having a single forge is like a band with only a single instrument.

BTAIM I must confess that propane is playing a larger part in my smithing out here were good coal is hard to get and fire restrictions are hard on anything you can't "turn off"---I loved reading recently where you couldn't smoke outside in the National Forrest---you have to be inside your car!

Thomas P - Friday, 06/02/06 16:16:33 EDT

Trubute to Paw Paw Wilson: There is no way I can properly thank all who contributed leaves and made the beautiful planter as a trubute to Paw Paw Wilson. I am in awe of this gift and appreciate each one of you. Also a special thank you to Glenn Connor for coordinating the project. I have pasted in the list of names at the end of this message. Thank you each one and know that I will often think of the great effort of the blacksmith community to make such an wonderful gift. I have put a large Christmas Cactus in the planter and know it will be especially lovely from Thanksgiving through Chrismas.

My Thoughts are with eachone of you.

Sheri Wilson

Tom C.
Frank Turley
Kayne and Son
Richard Hanson
Jerry Carroll
Bob Harusim
Darren Thomes
Leah Fuller
W. Cooper UK
Robert Hall
Melanie Bennett
Jens Butler
Brian Cornish
Paul Wells

Sutton Terock Memorial Blacksmith Shop, Rochester Ind.
Art Morgan
Charles Azbell
Sonny Powell
Rob Fetterling
Tim Pearson
Fred Oden

Add these two names for design and assembly of the project.
Peyton Anderson
Mike Tanner
Butterfly - Saturday, 06/03/06 16:11:14 EDT

Leaves for Paw Paw: Please add the following names as contributors of leaves.
Bob Harasim
Rich Waugh
- Ntech - Saturday, 06/03/06 20:54:22 EDT

Paw Paw's Tribute: I have received more names of blacksmiths who contributed leaves. They are

Rich Waugh
Bob Harasim

Thank you each one. It is a beautiful thing.

If we missed any other names, please notify Glenn Connor or myself.

Thank you again.

Butterfly - Sunday, 06/04/06 06:54:08 EDT

2007 Turley Forge class dates: The 2007 blacksmithing class dates have been newly posted at
Frank Turley - Sunday, 06/04/06 13:26:24 EDT

webpage: Hi guys.
I just finished updating my website. Ive been writing a few articles for it , id welcome any feedback/suggestions. Also the links section is rather sparse , so if anyone wants to swap links drop me an email. Also im trying to build a historic wrought iron gallery , if anyone has any photos of old traditional work and would like to share them again drop me an email. < articles are in here.


- Berty Stubbs - Sunday, 06/04/06 15:56:25 EDT

Mother's Day gifts: I would like to share some pics of what I made for my, wife, mother-in-law and my mother for mother's day.

I think these would make a nice iforge demo.
Thanks for your help Jock.
dbaker - Monday, 06/05/06 09:42:56 EDT

The Evils of SPAM:
Last night NBC did a story on counterfeit drugs. It is a huge multimillion dollar business, manufacturing worthless sometimes dangerous look alike pills and tablets, duplicate packaging and selling world wide. The big seller is phoney Viagra. But now any high dollar OR popular drug is a target and these things are showing up in legitimate drug stores.

Although this business has been going on for a while Viagra sold by SPAM is the leader that has created this multi million dollar counterfeit market. Like many counterfeit and copyright infringement scams this one was based in China. However, it IS a world wide problem especially when the local government does not care.

The key to this business is SPAM. Selling phoney Viagra on the Intenet. It has been so successful that now the crooks are now counterfeiting other drugs. These drugs include everything from antibiotics to blood pressure medicine are showing up not just at shady on-line sales outlets but in local drug store chains.

It has been suggested that some of these counterfeit drug rings are run by and funding terrorists. THIS is very dangerous as once the supply chain is established it could be used as a weapon by the terrorists. The bogus pills could be filled with poision or worse, biological weapons. At this point there is nothing to stop them.

Years ago I wrote my article about SPAM and how terrorists could use SPAM to deliver a time delay destructive computer virus and bring down our economy. It is even more possible today. SPAM is being used to deliver viruses used to collect more adresses to further sending SPAM. This is hacking for profit and a huge international criminal enterprise. Now the SPAM is being used to deliver what COULD BE chemical weapons.

SPAM is NOT just a minor nusiance as George Bush Sr. put it, "that can just be clicked away". It is major crime generating billions of dollars. It could be and probably IS a tool of terrorists. And the worst thing about it is that EVERY person that has a computer connected to the Internet that uses e-mail is exposed to these criminal and terrorist elements.

SPAM and Viruses
SPAM and Phishers and scammers
SPAM and Counterfeit drugs (that are possibly killing people)
SPAM and criminals and terrorists. . .

The counterfeit drugs can be handled by labels with embedded chips that are scanned at the delivery point to assure legitimacy. But it will require government action to make this new technology universal. Ask for it NOW before the deaths start to mount up.

But SPAM is at the heart of all these criminal activities and it too needs to be stopped.
- guru - Monday, 06/05/06 10:21:03 EDT

Spam: The refusal of government to enforce existing laws is the most serious of current problems. The viagra ads for example. While they are foreign in origin, there are US entities that transmit the money, and they could be stopped, IF government had the same will to go after them that they show in harassing ordinary citizens. There are many laws broken with each spam message.

I got a spam message offering US and Canadian passports for sale, undetectibly modified to fit the user.. The Local US attorney and the FBI were not interested. Neither was the state dept. I then forwarded the spam message to the RCMP. They were very interested and eventualy broke up a passport forging ring, and they thanked me. The US could have done it, but they didn't care, Too much like work I guess.

Guru is right. Spam is dangerous and is feeding organized crime and terrorism.
- John Odom - Monday, 06/05/06 14:45:59 EDT

Absolutely NO way the big pharmaceutical companies cooked up this story to get people to shy away from cheaper drug sources (Canada as one example) to maintain profits. Since this has never happened before, it must surely not be happening now. Fear is always a motivation... call it terrorism or otherwise. No way I'll believe OUR Government would be blind to such things. It MUST be true... I've seen it in PRINT (or at least on TV)! I pledge to only buy my Viagra from a reputable source and only the name brand product, at that. So as to discourage terrorism and all other evils.
- Gronk - Monday, 06/05/06 21:09:54 EDT

Rare anvil ?: Within the next few weeks, I'll be looking at a Champion Bullock anvil in Colorado. It might be cast iron with a chilled face, according to Postman's book. Stay tuned.
Frank Turley - Monday, 06/05/06 22:16:26 EDT

Klockar's Blacksmith shop: Michael- I am looking forward to seeing the picture of the Bradley Mr. Klockar has in his shop. Any idea when you will be able to post it?

- Patrick - Tuesday, 06/06/06 11:42:16 EDT

The Bradlee at Klockars: Patrick, I've been playing with the photoshop image trying to get it visible at internet resolutions. I can send you a large file image if you like by email till then.

- Michael - Tuesday, 06/06/06 11:45:42 EDT

Counterfeiting Products:
This is a huge industry largely based in China. Counterfeit drugs are just the newest thing. It used to be Rolex watches for the street markets and then it was computer software. In both China and the USSR the communists did not believe in copyright and blatently reproduced and distributed US software. In fact the Russians became experts in hacking and converting the English language menus and prompts into various slavic languages. When the original Win95 came out with the first bank quality holigraphic seals on the packages the Chinese had copies out within weeks that even Microsoft could not tell then difference. The quantities were in the hundreds of thousands and sold world wide. Two years ago a Chinese publisher had the NEWEST Harry Potter book on sale. . that had not even been written. They made up a title, had someone write the book and sold millions within China. . . Although they have been a member of the Bern Convention since 1992 little is done about copyright infringement.

Counterfeit drugs used to be just a matter of labeling generics with a brand name. Now it is tablets made of dry wall compound coated with house paint. The containers are the same child proof containers used here with the same seals and cotton balls. . . OR bubble paks. Labels are carfully counterfeited and even have serial numbers stamped on them.

With high priced drugs the profits are in the tens of millions, possibly billions of dollars. And yes our government has largely looked the other way because the bulk up to this point was phonies of a sex enhancement drug sold to people without prescriptions by spammers that the US government has stated are not a priority.

To make matters worse, remember the Tylenol scares of the 1980's when someone had tampered with capsules putting rat poison in them? Congress passed a law placing a mandate on the FDA to prevent tampering and counterfeit drugs from getting into the marketplace. Nothing had been done to date other than to study the problem.

However, technology has caught up with the FDA's daliance. RFID tags can be placed in product labels (including drugs, for 5 cents each - todays cost) with encrypted serial numbers and information that would be very costly to try to counterfeit. In fact the encryted codes can be linked to a database that verifies the code as legitimate. The cost of the scanners is minimal and much less than a law suit involving a medical counterfeit product.

The FDA now supports the use of an RFID system but there is still daliance, waiting for the drug companies to voluntarily put a system in place. . .

The problem for the consumer is not the direct sale through a spammer (fools die doing foolish things) but the fact that the SPAM and the fools doing business with spammers has created an industry that is now finding ways to get their phoney product into the regular retail chain like never before. This means that drugs you buy from legitimate drug stores may be counterfeit or those given you at a hospital may be counterfeit as well. . . When you cannot trust any source then you have a serious problem.

At this time the majority of the enforcement of this problem is via customs inspections. However, only random inspections are made and the counterfeit product that is found and stopped is just the tip of the iceberg.

The technology is here to solve this problem. All it requires is the FDA to say do-it.

How this fits with the legitimate on-line pharmacies I do not know. However, if they are licensed and have the same equipment as everyone else to scan and certify their product as being legitimate then it should help them too.

This spring we bought medications in Costa Rica at a considerable savings. Would the system above stop such sales or forigners purchasing drugs - I doubt it. Could it make such sales safer, definitely. This is a global problem, not just a problem in the US. If we lead, others will follow.
- guru - Tuesday, 06/06/06 12:16:59 EDT

Digital image repair. . .:
I do a lot of this. Sometimes it works, sometimes not. When the image is just not there or is out of focus you are wasting your time. I've often gone as far as tracing complicated elements (like people including individual tufts of hair) and adjusting them, then putting backgrounds out of focus in layers to create a shallow depth of field effect.

MANY of the images on anvilfire have been fixed A LOT. The Fisher-Norris Eagle anvil and label was a fair photo to start. However, the anvil was sitting in the grass and one foot and edge was not visible. The label was also about 20% missing from wear. It was repaired using parts of the label in a high res image, carefully cut and pasted the lighting adjusted on each piece. The age stains were left in place but all the missing label was rebuilt. The repaired label was also put on the smaller anvil image. And people wonder why I get upset when they steal images from anvilfire. . .

I spend a lot of time cutting backgrounds out of product photos for clients and our book review page then putting drop shadows in the image. Although these LOOK digital they are better than the part just floating in space. I am now working with double shadows (more natural) with slightly different colors.

And sometimes you don't have an image or something does not photograph the way you want. There are three books on our book review page with 3D images where there was no photo of the book. They were built from scans of the cover and in two cases the back of the book was created entirely digitaly.

I do this all with low-tech tools. Folks with high end tools that really know how to use them can do amazing things. But there is a serious learning curve on the high end tools as well. .
Fixed Eagle Anvil Images
- guru - Tuesday, 06/06/06 13:18:43 EDT

Leaves for Paw Paw: It has come to my attention that I omited the name of Jr. Strasil from the list of contributors to the Leaves for Paw Paw. My appoligies to Jr. Strasil for this error. Please add his name to the list.
- Ntech - Tuesday, 06/06/06 14:43:38 EDT

Bradley Picture: Michael-I'd love to get the picture via email. I own a Bradley myself and so have a particular interest in seeing other machines and the environments in which they are used.

Patrick - Tuesday, 06/06/06 15:14:21 EDT

NIPPULINI: Nip (and others interested) check out ebay # 6286554969
- Tom H - Tuesday, 06/06/06 20:59:07 EDT

Cool wing-nuts: Cool carriage bolts with rams-head wing nuts: see ebay # 7419548874.

Had fun tonight: turned a long 3/4" bar into a cut-off hardy. Of course, made of mild steel it won't last, but at least I made a tool of sorts.
TimS (the newbie) - Tuesday, 06/06/06 21:21:53 EDT

Looking for Vending Assistance - ABANA 2006 Conference: Looking for Vending Assistance - ABANA 2006 Conference

I would like to hire a booth attendant to assist during the ABANA conference where I will be selling t-shirts and books.

The vending area will be open Wednesday July 5th through Saturday July 8th.

The ideal assistant will have a somewhat flexible schedule and be available up to 4 hours a day. Basic math and shirt folding skills are most desirable!

Please contact me if you or someone you know may be interested.

Thanks and have a great day!

Lorelei Sims
Five Points Blacksmith Shop
- lorelei sims - Wednesday, 06/07/06 09:23:33 EDT

Package rates to Austria: An Austrian gentleman on this site ordered some RR spikes from me, and 45# of them were sent USPS, 4-6 weeks Parcel Post, @ $58. A quotation each from Fedex and UPS was approximately $320. The latter two do not have any "slow boat rates". All overseas shipments get shipped by air and will arrive in four days or less, so they charge more.
- Frank Turley - Wednesday, 06/07/06 14:17:54 EDT

Re fake pharmaceuticals: I received a spam today which really looked good at first blush. The multi-colored google logo had two blue pills in the spelling, and it looked as though google was in the pharmaceutical pill business. The sender was "team google". I became suspicious when the first sentence lacked singular/plural agreement. I quote, "We just launched a pharmaceutical interfaces for Google." Whoa!
Frank Turley - Wednesday, 06/07/06 19:48:26 EDT

Fake Drugs: Who'd a thunk elementary-school grammar might save your live?
Mike B - Wednesday, 06/07/06 20:01:25 EDT

Spam: Unfortunately we see bad grammar in all sorts of "legitimate" literature and advertisements today.
- John Odom - Wednesday, 06/07/06 21:02:42 EDT

Cool wing-nuts, and cut off hardies: To make your own "cool wing nuts", see Blueprints BP0003.

For a quick cut off hardie see 5 Good Tools - Cheap Price, - iForge demo #143.
IForgeIron Blueprints
- Ntech - Thursday, 06/08/06 03:27:49 EDT

Really cool wing nuts: That style of wing nut was frequently used as Conestoga wagon hardware, so they had cool stuff in the 18th and 19th centuries.
Frank Turley - Thursday, 06/08/06 11:17:07 EDT

New treatment for manganese induced Parkinson's for welders!
Thomas P - Thursday, 06/08/06 13:54:29 EDT

The neatest part of a Conestoga wagon I have seen was the name plate. Big fancy forged and decorated thing.

I have a set of sheet metal rolls that has hand forged wing nuts. Each is different and has the manufacturers name stamped on it. . . Looks kinda like aprentice work as he has not gotten the routine down to where they look nearly the same.
- guru - Thursday, 06/08/06 14:05:31 EDT

Manganese poisioning:
Very interesting. Saved for future reference.

Also interesting that the research was done in China.
- guru - Thursday, 06/08/06 14:34:48 EDT

We do a lot of drug testing in places with more "friendly" legal systems before they get tested here.

I'm not surprised that there is a pool of affected people for them to work with there either.

What is surprising to me is that they seem to think there is a market that it would be worthwhile to research such a drug.

Thomas P - Thursday, 06/08/06 15:28:24 EDT

Manganese treatment:
Very interesting indeed. It's pretty depressing how long it takes to get some of this research from the bench to the patient. Dr. Sushil Tandon, A chelation therapy researcher at the Industrial Toxicology Research Center in Kucknow, India published the first study on the efficacy of PAS treatment on manganese toxicity in 1978! Oh well. At least it was followed up on.


Wei Zheng, the principle investigator, is at Purdue. It's just much easier to get these studies done overseas than it is in the US. Since he has connections in China, it was probably just the path of least resistance.

eander4 - Thursday, 06/08/06 15:33:17 EDT

The market aspect is not too suprising. the drug is already available and inexpensive to manufacture, so the "major overhead cost" aspect of drug research has already been surmounted. To find an additional market, albeit a small one, is just a bonus for the drug company and the patient. I would guess the research was government funded anyway, so it cost the pharmaceutical industry NADA.
eander4 - Thursday, 06/08/06 15:40:51 EDT

Drug applications:
Finding new uses for existing drugs is sort of trial and error. Even creating the drugs has a huge element of guesswork involved even though the science is very sophisticated today. If it was pure science then all the testing and trials would not be necessary.

In science we have come a long way and still have a long way to go.
- guru - Friday, 06/09/06 06:51:09 EDT

I've read that they have actually found a good use for thalidomide and I was once on a drug for it's side effect, not for it's "intended" use.

I guess it's like the lizard spit I take daily---folks noticed that one of the aspects of toxicity of gila monster bites was a severe drop in blood glucose; knowing a class of people who could profit from that they isolated, purified and then made it synthetically---it would be a real pain travelling with live gila monsters and telling TSA "oh I need them to bite me twice a day..."

Thomas P - Friday, 06/09/06 11:05:48 EDT

drugs: i am glad Danwn looks over what i takd daily. as well as the hospice. i woulg be in serioue crap creep But i am guessing we all are copinhwith it all like right now as Ihad planned A VISIST to olive garden. but sinve DAWN IS NOW IN THE HOSPITLE iAM PLANNG a latter supper .not to worry as it will get done.
Ralph - Friday, 06/09/06 19:45:39 EDT

A Rotex 18 punch press came my way out of a scrap pile (!!)today, missing the top turret and punches, alas. Many thanks in advance for any suggestions re: sources for these. I am Googling, will call Rotex Monday. If they are prohibitively expensive, I will bodge up my own rig, use it for repousse, making conchos, etc. Eight tons of pressure ought to do silver, copper, brass.
Miles Undercut - Friday, 06/09/06 21:02:19 EDT

Eight ton manul press, not bad. Yep, eight will do a lot in soft metals. The turret is probably a pretty expensive part. However, it looks like it could easily be used as a single station machine.

Don't forget out iForge articles on press tooling
- guru - Saturday, 06/10/06 09:17:35 EDT

Just perusing the Rotex website, and the various offerings on Ebay and the Net, I find these devices are wayyyy costly. So, I suspect you are right, Guru. Would not be surprised if the punches, which list at $35 +/- each run around $600 or more for a set, and the turret maybe another several thousand. Lots of fancy machining. Makes sense maybe for a busy fab shop doing LOTS of punch-outs. Not worth it for me. We'll see. Perhaps it is my Karma speaking-- fix up that old South Bend, get that dial-index out, make my own! Yessirreebob! Meanwhile, the Bonnie Doon (sic) jewelry-making press outfit, makes 'em for blanking brooches, conchos, etc., thinks a 20-ton model is what's needed. (!!) So I could maybe just have dragged home a quarter ton of scrap. Sure is pretty.
Miles Undercut - Saturday, 06/10/06 10:39:41 EDT

IF its in good condition except the missing pieces SOMEONE will want it. . . I've seen things sold at auctions where and important part is sitting on a bench and is sold seperately. . . . .

The Bonnie Doon press is a good deal but I suspect you can build better. I was looking at the design for a jeweler friend about two years ago and came up with a better arrangement. . . wish I could remember.

AH! Yes! Using a commercial die set instead of the flame cut plate. Die sets are not expensive considering the precision. Set one up to take standard 1" shank tools and mount it on top of a 20 ton bottle jack using tension rods ah la Bonnie Doon and you have a REAL tool.

OK. . fairly big die set with 1" guide rods about 8-10" long (more travel than the jack). It will also need die springs to return the jack. Two 1" or 1.25" tension rods from the base of the die set to the plate on top of the jack. The base of the jack set directly on the top of the die set.

All you need is something really heavy for the cross bar between the tension bars. Maybe a pice of 2x3 or so. . .
- guru - Saturday, 06/10/06 11:41:56 EDT

I have heard (from what in in another incarnation was called a hitherto reliable but as yet unconfirmed source) that the Bonnie Doon, or a reasonable facsimile thereof, is being made now in Taos, NM. Cannot find any evidence of this on the Net. A friend told me the other day that he, too, made his own, improved version.
Miles Undercut - Saturday, 06/10/06 12:08:06 EDT

Dieset Press: Diesets come in cast iron and steel. If You plan to put forces other than compression on the die shoes[not recommended] be darn sure You get a steel dieset. 4 post diesets are available allso, but be sure to keep the forces all lined up as not to put excessive side load on the posts and bushings.
Dave Boyer - Saturday, 06/10/06 22:26:44 EDT

I was just now speculating with a machinist friend about what lateral stresses if any might be imposed on a punch or stamp by this monster. Probably would depend on the terminal shapes involved. The turret on this thing looks like a bear. Take a peek at one that sold recently. (Photo seems to show a cracklike flaw in the paint on the frame.) Same as my treasure except mine hasn't got the hairline fissure and this one has the turret and most of the tooling. Ebay item 7606733024
Miles Undercut - Sunday, 06/11/06 01:12:15 EDT

Fake Drugs: Looks like the Feds are monitoring your site, Guru, and following your advice.
Paymeister (AKA TimS the Newbie) - Sunday, 06/11/06 18:26:16 EDT

Feds and Fakes: Naw. . I was just repeating and expanding on some things in the TV news investigation. Apparently the FDA has had plans on the board for a long time but had failed to enact them.

However, the spike in counterfeit drugs is due to SPAM providing a market to sell them and finance large operations. A small part of those in turn find ways into the legitimate market. However, the NBC sting was setup as if they had access to the normal supply chain and could dump tens of millions of dollars worth of fake drugs. . . not an impossibility for organized crime.

These things do not become big problems in a vacuume. In this case it starts with SPAM, but is also fed by governments that do not consider this an important crime as long as the money is going to their economy and the fake drugs are not being sold locally. . . China is the world leader in counterfeiting all kinds of products. It is not a simple business requiring artists, printers, manufacturers in many areas of expertise. When you have a huge counterfeiting culture the criminals will do anything that sells. Some of the counterfeiting is "only" economicaly damaging but much of it is dangerous. Expensive auto parts including safety related parts like airbags and brake parts have been counterfeited. Back when it was just Bill Gates losing on millions of copies of Win95 people laughed. But when you or a relative get sick and possibly die because the drugs you were prescribed for a serious illness are phonys then it is a different matter.

The interesting thing is, the drugs you should suspect the most are the ones you see most heavily advertised on televison. . .
- guru - Monday, 06/12/06 08:03:06 EDT

US: Blacksmithing in Georgia : Hello,

I live just north of Atlanta, GA. I have been looking to learn blacksmithing part-time. However, there does not appear to be much around me. I have to go far south. I was looking for instruction on the weekend, like I said above. It would just be part-time.

Thank you,
Jeb Napier - Monday, 06/12/06 16:07:39 EDT

Jock, have you heard of the Net Neutrality bill that was shot down by congress and will it affect your site?
It is basically, the large telephone and cable companies (AT&T, Time Warner, etc) want to be able to decide which websites run fast, slow, or not at all. Meaning, they want to be able to charge the website owners for faster service. If website owners don't pay, then they'll be doomed to a slow connection, or even no connection at all!
The Net Neutrality bill would have prevented these corporation from this level of... well, extortion is the only word for it.
daveb - Monday, 06/12/06 16:31:40 EDT

Jeb in GA:: Jeb, I'm also just getting started with blacksmithing as a hobby. I've found the local ABANA chapter to be very helpful. Their web site is They have a monthly meeting this coming Saturday. The meetings tend to rotate around the ATL area, this one is south of town. There is also the John C. Cambell Folk School ( which has some excellent classes. I'm still searching for my first anvil and working on building my first forge but come to one of the meetings and you'll met some very knowledgeable folks. ...Dennis
- Dennis M - Monday, 06/12/06 16:58:24 EDT

chinese hammmers: Was reminded again this weekend on the value of USA hammers. We were in Tampa for my brother in law's wedding. He had been holding on to some model T fenders for me until I could come pick them up. When I got there, I learned they still had the splash aprons on them, making them too long to fit in the back of our Jeep. The aprons were in poor condition, so I was going to remove them. The brother in law didn't have any tools for rusty bolts, so I thought I use his old hatchet and a hammer to cut the apron in half. After the 3rd wack, I felt a sharp pain in my middle finger. A chip had come off the hammer & pierced my finger. I looked at the hammer & it was chinese. He had another hammer, so I checked it and it was also chinese. I tried it anyway & about the 3rd wack, 2 chips flew off. One pierced thru my pants & cut me in the thigh, the other went thru my shirt & cut my chest. I threw both hammers in his dumpster & went out & bought an american hammer for him, along with an angle grinder to cut the bolts off. I told him they were extra wedding presents.

I was shocked on how much you have to pay for an american made hammer at Lowes. I wish I would have had timt to go find a flea market to buy him some older "good" hammers.

If one of those chips, the size of small BB's, had found my eye, rather than other parts of me, it would have been a very sad weekend. I know steel on steel isn't good practice, but the manner in which I was using them shouldn't have caused the chipping. I'll remember to just stay away from chinese hammers.
- Mike Sa - Monday, 06/12/06 18:07:42 EDT

Net Neutrality Bill:
This is a complicated bit of legislation originally designed to prevent ISP's from charging different rates for different classes of digital data content, video streaming, voice over IP, and regular digital (web page) data. Often this is not directed at the supplier of those contents but YOU and I the consumer. If you want full screen hi-res TV delivered by internet then YOU will have to pay for it. . .

Then the argument became who could pay for preferencial treatment in access such as positioning on search engines. . well, this is just pure money and advertising and not a fairness issue. If google sells ALL its listings by who pays then their content would become irrevelent (much as it has) and ANOTHER relevency driven search engine will take its place. . . In other words the legislation got bogged down in arguments that had nothing to do with the original arguments.

The who pays for speed issue will not go away and is pretty much a free market issue. If AOL had enough money to buy more band width (in essense the infrastructure) to give better service then why not? The browsing public will not let a few large companies put so much squeeze on the net that the rest is so slow that it is highly noticable.

For most of us it is a non-issue that if regulation was put into place it would just make the wold more complicated. If they CARED then they would be readdressing the SPAM issues and putting some money into stopping the criminal activities of spam.
- guru - Monday, 06/12/06 19:49:21 EDT

Good Steel - Bad Steel and libility: There is a huge difference in good steel properly handled and heat treated and cheap steel poorly handled.

Then, there is libility. An Ameican company making a tool you buy through a reputable dealer can be tracked down and sued for libility if their tool fails and someone is injured. Not only is the manufacturer sued but so is the dealer. The import sold through discount wharehousing systems, fleamarkets and ebay dealer has very little libility exposure IF you could even find out who they are. . . Is your lawyer going to fly off to Karichi, PK or Singapor, CN and get satisfaction for you in those forign courts (much less his fees)? Does your brother know who the fleamarketeer was that sold him the tools? IF you had a cause to sue your lawyer would say your brother's homeowner's insurance would be the only likely entity to pay and IF THEY thought there was a case against the manufacturer let THEM follow it and try to recoup their losses. . . SO, in these cases you have to sue your friends or family members in order to pay for your injuries.

So you have the HAHAHsowhatDumbYankee Company with no libility and then you have Sears and Roebuck, or Snap-On or. . . who has a great deal of libility. So the legal system we hate forces then to sell good tools or not be in business. It also forces Champaign bottlers to put safety glasses warning labels on their products. . .

When tools are unbelievably cheep it is like the old saw, "If its too good to be true then it probably isn't."

Lack of any responsibility on the part of the manufacturer is a huge part of the difference between many imports and domestic product. THEN you have the slave wages and the actual poor quality of the tool. . . No wonder they are cheap.

IF every "professional quality" Russian and Chinese anvil sold on ebay that dented with the slightest tap were returned do you think there would be any market selling them? Dumb Americans buy cheap crap and don't return it when they find they have junk or got taken so the junk just keeps flooding in.

What will be sad is when the only used tools you find at fleamarkets are the junk that is flooding the market today. It is already starting and is only going to get worse.

- guru - Monday, 06/12/06 20:15:37 EDT

Jeb in GA:
You are in the heart of blacksmithing territory. There are probably more smiths per given population in Georgia than anywhere in the US. If you mean "go far" as being an hour's drive then tough. A decade or two ago it was a day's travel one way to visit another smith. They (blacksmiths) are there by the dozens. You just have to look. But it is still not unusual to travel 8 hours or more to go to an event.

Do not pay attention to where the organization address is. They usualy meet in different shops around the state and one may be near you. If you have a decent shop space and a little equipment they might even hold a meeting at YOUR place. . how convienient can you get???

Try the links page on the page below. Note that their conference is next year and I need to update the page with all the specifics but it will be similar to the past. The Southern Blacksmiths are made up of all the groups in your area.
- guru - Monday, 06/12/06 20:26:59 EDT

Chinese hammers: The 2nd hammer that bit me twice came from Lowes. There was a whole rack of them at the store when I went for the replacement. Most of the hammers on the section were chinese made (regardless of brand). Only 2 or 3 hammers were american made. I paid 26 bucks for a 20oz framing hammer (he'll most likely never need anything else....he's not much of a handy man).

On the trip home to Illinois, we went thru Alabama for some different (we thought) scenary. Somewhere along hi way 231, there was a pioneer village tourist trap that had signs on both sides of the road advertising blacksmith arts & crafts. It was too late in the evening for us to stop & check it out.
- Mike Sa - Monday, 06/12/06 22:27:53 EDT

Note that just because an old tool was american made doesn't mean it was high quality---Sears&Roebuck used to sell cast iron anvils as well as hay-buddens.

I've gone through a bunch of old ballpein hammers forging them into dishing hammers or hawks and every once in a while you get one that is cast iron even though it's 80 years old or so.

However, the bad old tools have a tendency to take themselves out of the used tool stream as they fail and are discarded so the result is that used tools are often better than what the market originally supplied---a sorting process.

The downside is that every once in a while you get a tool that was so badly designed or made that it was unusable and so lurks in "mint" condition hidden away until it gets into the used tool stream to surprise the unwary...

Thomas P - Tuesday, 06/13/06 11:50:07 EDT

Berty Stubbs Website: Hi guys , thanks for all your emails and feedback.

The website has undergone a major overhawl , feedback is welcome!

Also im still looking for incoming links , so if anyone wants to swap links please email me thought the site.

Cheers guys

Berty Stubbs
- Berty Stubbs - Tuesday, 06/13/06 14:59:52 EDT

Fake Viagra--Spam: GURU: See this link/ I hope they keep it up, and move on all spammers.
- John Odom - Wednesday, 06/14/06 07:43:15 EDT

Fake Drugs: Small players, but they are working on it. . .
- guru - Wednesday, 06/14/06 07:55:12 EDT

Detroit area - Blacksmith Points of Interest?: I'll be working in Farmington Hills, MI next week which is just NW of Detroit. I was wondering if there were any blacksmith shops or points of interest I should try to see in the evenings.

I'll also be in the Buffalo Grove area, NW of Chicago, in July for a week. If anyone has blacksmith related points of interest to visit, I'd like to hear about them.

TIA, Dennis
Dennis M - Wednesday, 06/14/06 13:44:46 EDT

Ellen's surgery: Ellen's surgery is today. I'm sure prayers for her speedy recovery would be appreciated.
- John Odom - Wednesday, 06/14/06 14:37:14 EDT

The anvil I found out here has gone to a good home, the department that didn't even know they had it donated it to the Fine Arts Metalworking department where it will be used for blacksmithing and armourmaking.

The interesting part was that the "property" department claims that a used bridge anvil is worth $30,000---sure wish they would buy mine from me, I'd even sell it to them for half price---and double the size of my shop...

Thomas P - Wednesday, 06/14/06 15:09:16 EDT

Thomas. . Used bridge CRANE maybe. . .
- guru - Wednesday, 06/14/06 15:14:23 EDT

Sculptor's accidental death: Yesterday's Santa Fe newspaper reported the death of noted Hondo, New Mexico, sculptor, Luís Jiménez, age 65. Luís and two employees were moving his huge "rearing horse", fiberglass sculpture, supporting it with a cable. The cable broke, and the statue fell and pinned Jiménez to a steel support severing a main artery in his leg.

This reminded me of our posts of a few days ago, where we were talking about moving large objects and thoroughly thinking through our possible materials handling problems.
Frank Turley - Thursday, 06/15/06 09:47:19 EDT

Rigging Safety:
Heavy objects are a hidden often unsuspected danger.

When lifting things with a crane the danger seems obvious but the load ratings of lifting equipment often are not obvious. Legaly in the US every lifting device, hook, chain, cable, sling is suppost to have a clear load roating label. But on many they do not exist or have broken off.

On some lifting equipment you can tell when it is overloaded. Load chain links are oval in shape. When the sides become straight they are overloaded. However, most people do not notice until the job is done and thy notice the chain does not flex like it once did. When chain is permenently deformed it should be thrown away.

On many nylon slings there is an overload thread sewn into the sling. This is made of a different material than the sling and will not stretch as much as the sling. When it breaks the sling is overloaded.

Cables however have no warning system built into them. When they fail it is sudden and without warning. I avoid using cable for rigging at all cost.

If you move heavy items regularly you should inspect your rigging once a month and replace any that looks to have been overloaded or damaged. Bent, worn or straightened chain links indicate it is time to scrap the chain. Cut or frayed slings should be replaced. Cables with kniks, knots or any fraying should be scrapped.

If you have employees you should probably have a rigging specialist inspect and certify your rigging. That means that if its not labeled then you don't keep it.

If you only move heavy items occasionaly then inspect your rigging before each job. In small shops this is often a judgement call but don't base it on economics. There is no balance for loss of life or limb.

One of the best things that has happened in the rigging industry is the nylon sling (not truck hold downs). They are relatively inexpensive, light wight, easy to handle, do not tear things up like chain and are clearly labeled. They can lift loads many times greater than a chain of several times their weight. They are forgiving. But you need to learn how to use them. The ratings are usualy on the tag and vary according to how they are applied. A basket, with two ends on the hook is good for twice the load of a straight lift. A loop with the sling wrapped around itself is often derated 1/3 of straight.

Rigging Safety is taught as a required industrial class. Small shop owners and individuals without access to these classes should study what they can find on the subject. If the classes are given at a local trade school you should take advantage of them. Often crane companies hold these classes and they can be attended for a small fee.

Think about it.
- guru - Thursday, 06/15/06 13:18:43 EDT

Avoiding Cable: A friend of mine who makes cable damascus was given about 75 feet of 1" cable after a commercial logger had it snap and pop a worker.
- Tyler Murch - Thursday, 06/15/06 13:30:35 EDT

One reason so much cable can be found "used" is that it is considered to have a "use life" and large corporations that use it will replace perfectly good *LOOKING* cable on a regular basis when it has hit the putative use life.

If you re-use it---are you feeling lucky?

I have some chain that was stretched so it no longer flexes right---I got it for welding yard art out of and it's in the scrap pile not the chain bucket in the shop.

Thomas P - Thursday, 06/15/06 14:50:36 EDT

A friend of mine bought a box with litteraly a ton of various size load chains in it at the scrap yard. He thought he had a real treasure. When I examined it you could see that the area where the chain links rub was worn. These had been hoist chains somewhere with a lot of abrasive dust, probably a foundry. All the chain had been scraped because it was "worn out". This chain would break rather than show signs of overload. I think he eventually sold it back to the same scrap man. . .

Yep, as Thomas noted it would only be good for decorative purposes or yard art but not heavy loading.

When old wrought iron chain was failure tested the ramaining pieces were stiff as a board. . . joints closed tight.

On chain hoists the hook was supposed to be rated such that the hook would open and show overloading before the chain was damaged. However, on recent hoists I have seen hooks that were double the hoist capacity. . . Combine that with the engineered safety factor of 5:1 and you have a 10:1 safety factor. .
- guru - Thursday, 06/15/06 16:20:51 EDT

I think those nylon web slings are great for hoisting stuff, but gotta be careful storing them-- aren't they subject to deterioration after a while in sunlight? Lots of plastic is. On chain and hooks, extreme cold weather lowers the rating, cannot find a chart I have saying how much.
Miles Undercut - Thursday, 06/15/06 17:40:09 EDT

Rigging etc: I also like nylon slings, but quite a few of the slings now are polyester.
Yes sunlight, and ozone both degrade many plastics including nylon. In the parachute trade, it was normal to consider a parachute ruined after a day in a tree in strong sun. Of course that is very thin fabric, usually 1.1 oz per square yard.

On synthic slings, always inspect before every lift. I find it usefull to stretch a sling over something smooth and pull the sling along to show broken stitches and tears etc. Most slings show the rating for the different methods of lifting.

Load chain is usually a "Grade" chain. There are several new grades out such as Grade 120, with higher capacities than the same size in the lower grades. Every lift chain sling is required to be assembled with rated components and proof tested if used in industry. In my local, the local wire rope and chain shop has the proof test rig and supplies all slings with the test cert. They will retest and recert at thier shop. I think the last slings I had cert'ed were about $20.00 each. They did condemn several of the 20 or so slings I sent them. I was pleased to have them scrapped at thier shop, and bought new slings to replace.

In my safety job I routinely inspect synthetic slings as I walk about the shops. I also routinely take any sling I find that is bad and condemn, by sawing thru both eyes and cutting in the middle as the guys will take them home and use them. If they are too bad to use at the shop, they are too bad to give to someone!
ptree - Thursday, 06/15/06 18:42:11 EDT

Synthetic Slings: There are two types that I know of, the woven nylon and the sleaved polyester strand. Both work well but I like the heavy flat nylon the best.

With both the biggest problem we had in the shop is getting cutting chips embedded in them. No matter how clean you keep the floor chips get tracked around during the day and if using slings they will get caught. We would ocassionaly take time and pick them out. Seemed to be worse with the woven nylon.

Both would also get greasy if moving fresh machined, grease protected parts or used machinery. Ocassionaly they would get run through the washer with mild detergent.

The load capacity of these things is amazing. The first ones I bought for personal use were 1" by 3 feet double ply. I think they are rated at 3100/6000 pounds. Two of them fit in a small ammo can along with some shackles. They are handy for moving anvils and power hammers. . . At the time they only cost $14 each and are still good 20 years later. I see the prices are not quite double what they were in 1985. Still cheaper than chain.

The larger ones we used in the shop were 2" double ply endless loops up to 12/24 feet long. I think they were good for 8000/16000 pounds. Although bulky they were light weight compared to chain and lots easier on the hands. Our first set got very disreputable looking before we scrapped them.

The biggest problem all riggers have is using chain OR slings at too low of an angle. Low angles can reduce the rigging capacity to 25% or less. At a theoretical straight line across a load the force is infinite and capacity ZERO. However, a little stretch or slack and you easily reach 9%. This results in bent chain links and frayed slings if being used at any significant fraction of their capacity.

Many folks do not understand this and get into trouble when they think they have rigging several times the capacity of the load.
- guru - Friday, 06/16/06 09:12:53 EDT

Need for Financial Aid: Dear Blacksmiths,
I have been asked to issue a call for help on behalf of a fellow blacksmith who has hit a rough spot. Curt Harville (Charv the Ferrett wrangler) and his significant other, Sue Miley, are in immediate need of some financial aid. Even though the time is long - this is Katrina damage. They both lost good jobs at the casinos on the coast, and even though their property was spared, the notes due against it kept coming. The note holders are even charging penalty interest. They re-located to Hot Springs, Arkansas, and put their liquid cash into a property they planned on buying when the coast property sold. The Coast property has NOT sold, even though several deals have been put together. Now the unemployment is gone, the truck is broken, and the option on their property in Hot Springs expires on July 9th. If that option expires without being completed, they will loose the funds invested there. The owners have apparently been very rough on them because they have another buyer at a higher price.

I say all of that to say this - they need some MONEY quick. I have offered them a place to live should they have to leave Hot Springs, but at this point, it's a matter of having enough money to fix a vehicle, rent a storage space, and get down to my place, where they can stay for free, until they do sell some property. As you can imagine - this whole experience has taken a heavy toll on some nice folks. I am financially overextended because of all the effort I have put into my Foundation - so am useless as far as getting them some cash. So - if you wanted to help Hurricane victims - here is your chance!

You can send checks to me - made out to me - so that I can cash them at my bank and get them cashiers checks, to where ever they may be in the coming weeks. Alternately - mail cashiers checks yourselves- made out to Curt Harville - or Susan Miley.

Joe Cooper Rolfe
P.O. Box 146
Oak Ridge, LA 71264-0146

We never know when the shoe may be on the other foot. Do what you can,

Please feel free to post and forward.
- Joe Rolfe - Friday, 06/16/06 12:59:12 EDT

Leaves for Paw Paw?: Hi Butterfly,

I dont see my name on that list. I dont need to be on any list but I am concerned that the leaf I sent didnt make it?

adam - Friday, 06/16/06 14:35:29 EDT

"For the Forum: ": Yall need to ask John at the Foreman's Forge why he is now AKA (ol' 10x). Hi John it's Toney from the shoot. I got the Mayer 25 home finally and need to get your advice on where I can find a few parts for it. My email is and my phone is 361-701-6866. I appreciate any help you can throw my way. I have several photo I can post on here if someone can tell me how so you can see what I have and don't have.

Thanks again

- Toney Urban - Friday, 06/16/06 14:58:17 EDT

Ellen: Is home from the hospital after surgery.
- John Odom - Friday, 06/16/06 18:25:20 EDT

Swamp Coolers: I picked up two free swamp coolers (evaporative coolers) at the county transfer station. We're only allowed to pick from the throw-away metals section. I cleaned them, installed new pads, and have one in the house and one in the shop. The fans are in good condition.

This is one geezer who never thought he'd have a cooler in his shop. It's pretty nice!

It's good to have a "shout out" for Ellen on this forum. I sent her an e-get well greeting.
Frank Turley - Friday, 06/16/06 19:42:26 EDT

Ellen: Thank you for that notification, John I hope she is recovering well and speedily. She's had a rough road for a while now and is due for a change for the better.
vicopper - Saturday, 06/17/06 02:45:09 EDT

Mayer Bros. Little Giant:
Toney, Did Sudemier handles parts for LG's. See our Power Hammer Page list of manufacturers. There are also photos of LG's that might help you.
- guru - Saturday, 06/17/06 10:27:56 EDT

Irish legends: Whilst fortuitously browsing, I encountered a scholarly article which relates a variety of Irish legends. The topic deals with the "travelers" and their place in society, and many of the legends contrast them with the esteemed blacksmith. I enjoyed the article; you might, too.
Irish smith/traveler legends
Paymeister - Saturday, 06/17/06 18:44:50 EDT

Travelers, gypsies, have always included tinkers-- bodgers who fix stuff, patching pots, pans, kettles-- among their number. In Ireland in 1998 I kept encountering an ugly sign I had not seen since the 50s in the U.S. South, where it referred to blacks, and more recently over around Reserve, N,M., where it refers to tree-hugging wolf-loving Enviro-kooks like me-- "We reserve the right to refuse service to anyone." Whuffo the sign, I kept asking, and people would scuff their toe and look away. Finally somebody told me, "Gypsies." I'd seen their caravans along the roads, and asked how you could tell who was a Gypsy and who wasn't. If you live here, the answer came, you can tell. I was there for two weeks and I couldn't. They looked like everybody else, including me. Maybe it's because I like to think that I, great-grandson of, among others, an Alsatian tinsmith and an Irish steel mill roller that I am, might be a wee bit Gitane, Romany, myself.
Miles Undercut - Saturday, 06/17/06 20:17:28 EDT

Alsatian metal workers: Miles,
Who would a thunk it? I too have Alsatian metal workers and Irish foundrymen in my family background.
ptree - Saturday, 06/17/06 21:18:52 EDT

ptree-- I am honored. Nay, honoured.
Miles Undercut - Sunday, 06/18/06 00:04:58 EDT

power hammer for sale: 25 lb little giant converted to air with a 50 lb sledge. comes ready to use with 1 set of combo dies $3500.00 HAMMER IS IN GRANBY COLORADO. (PICK UP ONLY) 30 miles from rocky mountian national park
- Justin Frank - Sunday, 06/18/06 12:49:04 EDT

Irish Travelers:
The "travelers" are not gypsies but as noted in the article above true Irish. Those in the US make their living running contracting scams and various assorted theivry. A popular scam in our area is painting tin roofs on barns and old houses in the country. The paint is thinned with gasoline so that it covers about 100 times more area than it is supposed to. A gallon does the job of 30 or more. . . Properly painted the job should last a decade or more. Done this way it often does not survive the first rain storm. . .

Another scam is to start a contruction job and damage the property claiming the parts riped off the building had to be replaced then asking for more money. . . they take the second deposit, have ruined your house and then leave. . .

And on and on. One has stopped in our neighborhood every summer looking for roofs to paint. Always has a REAL pretty new pickup truck.
- guru - Sunday, 06/18/06 22:34:58 EDT

Little Giant : 50 LB Little Giant in central CA. Ready to run self contained good condition two sets of dies and some extra parts 3500.oo
Allen - Sunday, 06/18/06 23:36:36 EDT

Irish Travelers:: Yip, Jock, that's the kind of gypsies that came to our town a couple times, when I was a kid, a small band traveling with famalies in fancy pickup trucks, especially with fancy hub caps. I know they pulled the 2 scams you mentioned, but I know they didn't get paid for at least one of them, because the banker tore up the check right in front of their face, and said, and now get out of town. It was pretty obvious who they were because everybody new everbody except them. Years later I saw some TV documentary about Irish Travelers, and it looked exactly like them.
JohnW - Monday, 06/19/06 12:26:30 EDT

Gypsies: I think the Romany Gypsies are originally from India and the word "Gypsy" is derived from "Egyptian" in the mistaken notion that Egypt was their origin. Of course now the word "Gypsy" is used to mean most any kind of itinerant lifestyle.

I would avoid using the verb "to gyp" it's cut from the same cloth as "to jew him down" "indian giver" etc
adam - Monday, 06/19/06 14:13:21 EDT

Irish Travelers: That group came thru here a few years ago, doing a con on mostly old folks, on home repairs. They also like to do blacktop sealcoating. Mostly used oil that washes off in the first rain, and kills the grass! They got my very own Irish Granny in the 70's.

The group was here a few years ago, and unlike their regular MO, beat up and robbed some old folks. Went to jail for it too as they were caught red handed.
ptree - Monday, 06/19/06 17:58:54 EDT

Aikidokey: I have just started taking Aikido classes. The art of blending with your opponent. Right now I am doing a lot of blending with the mat - at high velocity. I keep getting "neutralized" by these two guys in black skirts. Its pretty huiliatinging finding oneself face down on the floor with one's arm twisted up like a locked chain and a gentle voice over ones head saying "... and now with my free hand I can call your wife to come get you..." Id prefer a sharp kick in the groin any day.

Actually its quite fascinating , subtlety in confrontations is not my strong suit. In most fights, the attack is a distinct advantage. In Aikido, when you commit to an attack thats when your trouble starts. The attacker is always referred to as "uke" which I think is Japanese for "sucker"

I have a ways to go before I can make fun of the guys in black dresses
adam - Monday, 06/19/06 20:49:23 EDT

Aikido: Good fun! The department I first worked for had Bob Koga, from the LA County Sheriff's Department, train a couple of us as instructors in baton and weaponless control techniques. Bob is a master of both Aikido and Kendo, so his teaching was based on that.

Aikido is an excellent defense discipline, as it consists of "merely" redirecting the aggressor's own energy so that he hurts himself. Kind of polite mayhem, actually. (grin)

I still use the Koga techniques to this day, as none of the newer stuff that I've seen come down the road in the last thirty years is nearly as good. I find it particularly good as I get older; more about timing and thinking than brute strength, so good for us geezers. Back it up with a speedy little expandable Asp baton using Koga techniques and you can deal with most of what may befall you that doesn't immediately call for firearms. After three decades of law enforcement in some rough and tumble places, I still have all my parts intact, anyway. Of course, I learned very early (and painfully) not to make fun of the guys in the black dresses. (grin)
vicopper - Monday, 06/19/06 23:14:55 EDT

Adam & VIcopper: I never participated in those disiplins, but have seen them demonstrated on TV. Seems You add insult to injury by having expended minimal effort Yourself.
Dave Boyer - Tuesday, 06/20/06 00:24:09 EDT

Yeah, done well its almost effortless and beautiful to watch. It uses these sweeping circular motions derived from sword work and the swirling hakama ( silly black skirt) just enhances this effect. The takedowns are supposed to be applied without harming uke. One book urges you to feel sympathy for the attacker - "perhaps you too have sometimes had trouble controling your attacker". Man that is @#$% condescending! I love it!

Actually I wasnt really looking for a self defense technique, though it sure doesnt hurt. I just wanted something different to do for a while to stay interested in exercise but this has turned out to be totally fascinating.

The techniques are "soft" but they can easily inflict serious injury - I am often anxious especially since I am bigger and a lot stronger than most of the other students - there are several small women in the class.
adam - Tuesday, 06/20/06 20:19:42 EDT

Aikido: Other than being shot and stabbed, the only real on-duty injury I can remember suffering was the busted wrist I got in Koga training. Rookie "trainer" applied about one pound too much pressure and, pop! There went the wrist. Had to wear my weapon left-handed for a few weeks until the cast came off. It takes very little pressure with some of those aikido holds to make the difference between pain compliance and damage. The most frequent offenders in training are the jwomen, who think they need to reef down on you with all they've got to get the job done, not fully realizing that only about 6 pounds of pressure properly applied will dislocate a wrist. Scream early and scream often is my motto. (grin)
vicopper - Tuesday, 06/20/06 22:08:10 EDT

gypsys's: were also rounded up with /by t5he nazi,s
Ralph - Thursday, 06/22/06 14:26:49 EDT

Is It Slow or...:

... did the computer eat some messages?

Lots of news and comments, but they will have to wait until after Camp Fenby this weekend. I will say that Anvilfire is now the go-to place at the Armour Archive for anybody interested in forging. It used to be that Master Thomas or I would have to direct their questions and research here; now we don't even get a chance before somebody else will chime in on Anvilfire's behalf.

Time to go post signs.

Camp Fenby on Yahoo Groups
Bruce Blackistone (Atli) - Friday, 06/23/06 07:58:07 EDT

New project completed: It's just slow, Bruce. Good luck with Camp Fenby!

I posted a few pics across the street of a belt grinder that I just finished. I'm workin gon the final version of the plans, which I'll make available to CSI members. The unwashed masses can pay a nominal fee, roughly equal to a year's membership. (grin)
vicopper - Saturday, 06/24/06 23:12:14 EDT

vicopper-- I was just admiring that beast a moment ago. Beeeyoootiful!
Miles Undercut - Sunday, 06/25/06 00:02:51 EDT

Miles: Thank you, sir. It works a treat, I can say. It will remove 3/4" off the end of a 3/4" square bar in way less time than it takes to tell it. Scary-fast. I like it!
vicopper - Sunday, 06/25/06 00:24:26 EDT

terpentine: Is NOT for drinking!
- packrat - Sunday, 06/25/06 14:36:15 EDT

Packrat: Would you please explain how you know this?
- Jeff G. - Sunday, 06/25/06 17:09:48 EDT

vicopper-- gremlin just ate an attempted post here in which I said I like the snazzy finish on your grinder as well as the slick design. Beadblast? Sandblast? Any swarf/dust-collecting system? Saw a picture in the current Knives Illustrated of a guy's shop with a largish hopper under his contact wheel. I need to rig something like that. Found a genuine old-tyme 1" x 72" Square Wheel in a trash pile a few years ago, rescued it, plugged it in, works great. But produces mucho particulate matter. Koff! And talk about scary-fast! Instant amputation. (A bladesmith I know says he has seen devil-may-care smiths working with limbs and digits INSIDE the belt!!)
Miles Undercut - Sunday, 06/25/06 17:31:21 EDT

Miles: The squareish pan under the platen/contact wheel is the swarf catcher. 4" x 4" x 6", and just hooks on the arm for the tool rest. I fill it about half way with water with a pinch of surfactant and it virtually eliminates airborne stuff. A vacuum system hooked to the back guard would catch anything left over, but I have no good way yet to deal with the hot particles; don't want to start a fire if I can help it.

No matter what you do some stuff will get airborne, unless you have so many guards and collectors on the thing that you can't get to the belt at all. Easier and cheaper to just wear a respirator than to create a system that will get all of it but still leave the belt open enough to be used.

The water pan deal really works astonishingly well. With acoarse belt, say a 24 grit, I can lean into the thing and hog a half inch off the end of a bar. When I look in the swarf bucket, there is a hefty spill pile of what looks like fine steel wool on the bottom. Nothing on the floor.

A minor amount of swarf gets carried around by the belt, but the guard on the tracking roller stops the errant little hot bits from flying in my face or scorching my pate. The guard on the back of the drive wheel is to keep it from decorating whatever is behind it. All in all, it does a great job of keeping things clean. One little slip and it will clean the meat right off your bones, too.
vicopper - Sunday, 06/25/06 20:38:24 EDT

Oops: The finish is just paint. A product called Hammerite. Expensive, but it hardens to about Rockwell 48c. (grin) It comes in either a smooth finish or the "hammered" finish. I use the hammered finish because it disguises my screw-ups, of course. Takes a bit of practice to get it on right so it develops the hammered look.
Hammerite paint
vicopper - Sunday, 06/25/06 20:44:43 EDT

vicopper-- Thanks for the guided tour. I will attempt to replicate. I should have looked more carefully at the captions first time through. I've used Hammerite-- or something just like it. Didn't recognize it though, so smooooth is that finish on my screen.
Miles Undercut - Sunday, 06/25/06 22:02:30 EDT

Seriously considering buyin a new anvil from a harbor freight type store, it is cast steel and it does ring. Quite high infact it is a squat fat ugly thing but most mass is concentrated under the working surface. However I have two questions #1 it has a flat top smallish horn is this a big problem and #2 how bad is cast steel and this is only 75 pounds a little on the small side. The price is $99 with occasional sales. Is this going to work or should I keep looking for a 100pounder. Any other thoughts?
- Stephen - Sunday, 06/25/06 22:50:25 EDT

Grinder replication: In a few weeks, (I hope), I will have fully-detailed scale plans of the grinder available. Will probably be a .pdf document for download. No charge for CSI members. Others will be charges a nominal fee. I'm re-working the plans now to include all the changes that I made when I built it, and adding construction tips and guidelines.
vicopper - Monday, 06/26/06 00:02:21 EDT

Anvil: 75# is a bit small for anything bigger than about 3/8" stock. A flat topped horn is a pain in the neck. Cast steel can very, very good (e.g. Kohlswa anvils), or pretty funky likethe Harbor Freight ones. The alloy used and the heat treatment make a bigf difference in how they work out. I would wait and try to find a decent used one or save until I could afford a Euroanvil.
vicopper - Monday, 06/26/06 00:05:35 EDT

Grinder plans: Count me in Rich. I would like a copy :). I have access to autocad if you need any drawings or sketches coneverted to dimensioned plans. Just shoot me a note.
daveb - Monday, 06/26/06 11:37:29 EDT

Plans: I draw my plans in CAD, so they are dimensioned. The time comes in with adjustments to reflect the way it was actually bilt, versus the way I designed it initially. Also, I drew the initial plans for myself, and to put them out for others to use requires a significant amount of annotating for clarity. Some of that can be done with actual photos; I took about fifty photos of it yesterday for that purpose. It's coming along, though.
vicopper - Monday, 06/26/06 11:56:48 EDT

Hammered?: Gee, Rich; When I think back to the '60's, I don't recall having any problems attaining the "hammered" look. I don't recall having any difficulty being a CAD back then, either.
3dogs - Monday, 06/26/06 13:46:03 EDT

3dogs, the trick is being hammered without attaining cad hood. :)
- ptree - Monday, 06/26/06 17:55:21 EDT

Memories: Have a way of disappearing when they concern the period from about '65 to '72. I wonder why? (grin)
vicopper - Monday, 06/26/06 20:44:57 EDT

I have read that if you can remember the 60s, you weren't there.
Miles Undercut - Monday, 06/26/06 22:19:19 EDT

VIcopper: Like John Belushi said in "Animal House" after being expelled: "Seven Years Of College Down The Drain"
Dave Boyer - Monday, 06/26/06 22:30:20 EDT

Harbor Frieight Anvil:
Stephen see:
Cheap Russian Anvils
- guru - Tuesday, 06/27/06 16:10:12 EDT

I never had trouble with being a CAD while hammered, I just tended to sit and stare and giggle a lot for some reason...
Alan-L - Wednesday, 06/28/06 12:56:38 EDT

RALPH DOUGLAS 1960 - 2006:
Ralph passed away this morning June 30, about 1:30 am. Ralph was our one of our first CSI members and first CSI vice Chairman under Jim Paw-Paw Wilson, his close friend who passed away May 13, 2005.

Ralph was a long time friend to anvilfire and is survived by his wife Dawn, son Nathan and daughter Shannon. Dawn's cartoon business provided the cartoon on our story page.

Ralph's service is this coming Wed, July 5, at 11am, with a reception (luncheon) following at 12:15. There will also be a rosary for Ralph at 10:30, for anybody who would like to participate.

St. Matthew's Catholic Church
475 SE Third Avenue (that's 3rd and Oak)
Hillsboro, OR

Time to ring the anvil for Ralph would be July 5th at 11 AM pacific, 2 PM Eastern, 1 PM central, 12 mountain.

- guru - Friday, 06/30/06 21:33:17 EDT

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