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Virtual Hammer-In!

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April 2003 Archive

WHY THREE FORUMS? Well, this is YOUR blacksmithing forum to use for whatever you wish within the rules stated above. It is different than the Slack-Tub Pub because the messages are permanently posted and archived.
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Our chat, the (Slack-Tub Pub), is immediate but the record of it is temporary. DO NOT post permanent messages there. We refresh the "log" every 24 hours now and your message will be lost.

The Guru's Den is where I and several others try to answer ALL your blacksmithing and metalworking questions to us.

Please note that this forum uses an e-mail encryption system that prevents spam harvesters from collecting your e-mail address.

J. Dempsey  <webmaster> Rev. 7/98, 3/99, 5/2k, 6/2k, Friday, 04/06/01 16:43:25 GMT

First off, what kind of smithing experience do you have, as that will tell us where to start.
Ralph - Monday, 03/31/03 23:02:28 GMT

Tony: I like the plan we discussed. Leave it long, it could always be made shorter if absolutely necessary (which I doubt), but it ain't gonna grow very easily. (grin)

Cruzan Rum has been alerted to the likelyhood of serious stock depletion in the next two weeks. They said it was no problem as long as the requirement doesn't exceed three tankers. Obviously, they know nothing about folks from the frigid north. (grin) I thought it prudent to check with them as there has been a shortage of rain here lately and the locals have given up drinking waterand have been relying solely on rum for thirst quenching. I haven't yet tried it in the slack tub, though. Might be interesting, actually. I can see the ad now...the finest genuine Caribbean cutlass, forged in the fire of pure coconut husks and quenched in pure cane spirits in accordance with an ancient recipe known only to a select guild of Voodoo weapons makers. Own your very own piece of history! The Bluebeard Blade! Trademark, patent pending, all rights reserved, blah, blah, blah...
vicopper - Tuesday, 04/01/03 02:38:41 GMT

Tony: Lest I introduce inadvertent confusion, let me clarify. Yes to the 12" and yes to the long shaft. I didn't want you to think you should leave the cylinder long, since I know you already cut that down. (grin) I also forgot to say, Thanks!
vicopper - Tuesday, 04/01/03 02:41:00 GMT

Bluebeard Blade: No, it ain't "Living Steel." More like "Night of the Living Dead Steel." GRIN!
vicopper - Tuesday, 04/01/03 02:43:10 GMT

Bladesmithing: Joshua, what part of "The Complete Bladesmith" by James Hrisoulas are you having trouble understanding?

Then perhaps checking the library for ILL on Tim Lively's videotape on bladeforging using simple improvised tools.

- Thomas Powers - Tuesday, 04/01/03 16:20:52 GMT

High Jinks:

As Rich and Tony continue to plan whatever they're planning, interested parties can use the link below to watch for breaking news.

You want to look for headlines like: "Multiple UFO's Sighted Over Frederiksted" or "Cruzan Distillery Attacked By Trebuchet Wielding Bandits".

(Big Evil Grin!)
VI Daily News
Zero - Tuesday, 04/01/03 16:35:33 GMT

VIC: VIC, Gosh darn it, make up your mind! In that 2 minutes and 19 seconds between your posts, I tig welded the tube back together to 16" stroke!

Just kidding. Long stick and short tube it is. I wonder what they are gonna think it is when they x-ray the bag itís gonna be in. I think Iíll put a piece of tape on it with ďNOT a rokket launcchherrĒ

You are welcome. It was surplus useful stuff and I have another that Iíll probably do similar with. Took about 20 minutes to cut it down. It is a new cylinder. I apparently paid $2 for it at the useful stuff sale from previous employer.

The rum people shouldnít be concerned. Iím a much cheaper date than I was in the past. I just really like really GOOD rum. Grin. One tanker will probably do me. Thanks for checking on my behalf! You are a true friend.

Got the parts for the treb all set aside? I had a dream last night..... Do ya think the place Iím staying would mind us building a treb on the beach right there? Iíll ask them. Iíd think it would be a future tourist draw.....
- Tony - Tuesday, 04/01/03 16:35:35 GMT

The news...:
Zero et al.... One thing I will NOT be involved in is a distillery attack. Good rum distilleries are a national treasure! Grin!

UFO's? You bet.

Flaming shark at two oíclock...... Run away! Run Away!

No live shark were hurt in this dramatization. PETA people can go pound sand! Or go swim in the shark pool.
- Tony - Tuesday, 04/01/03 18:02:12 GMT

Treb ammo: Tony, have you considered using the baby Harp seal projectile? It's much more humane than the old clubbing method, and I'm sure the sharks would be more than pleased.(I will now post the mandatory GRINNNN!, lest I get it in the wringer again.)
3dogs - Tuesday, 04/01/03 19:28:59 GMT

Caribbean Adventure:

I expect a full photo essay to be posted on Yahoo or across the street at the Sketchbook -- including mug shots, if required... ;-)

I, myself, will be mowing acres of infernal weeds -- don't need no Treb when you find a tennis ball with the 40" mower deck! I'll drink Rum while I mow, so I can "be there in spirit" (pun intended)...
Zero - Tuesday, 04/01/03 20:36:41 GMT

Use of time, ammo:
3dogs! Ooooo, you might be on a PETA list now. Those people are violent you know. grin. But you are right. The 7 gís or so acceleration on the hurl would make just about any fish or mammal pass out before the landing. Much less painful than the clubbing.

Zero, Iíll do my best to balance the objectives and provide entertaining... errr... educational, yeah, thatís it, educational, photos. But I gotta tell ya, my wife has very definite ideas about what I should be doing on this vacation. And I will NOT be posting pictures of that. She hasnít had what SHE considers a real vacation for more than 10 years, might be 15 if I counted. Iím not sure why she doesnít think driving around the USA to play in mud and drive on rocks isnít a vacation, but so be it. So we have to sneak up on this a little. I have to wear her out so she wants me to be gone for a couple hours a day.

People are coming over to stay with the boy, so must take pictures for him anyway.

Dear, if you read this, you know Iíll do what you want and spend every waking hour attending to your needs. This vacation is ALL about you! EVERY waking hour. Iíll be asking you ALL the time what you want me to do. Even when you are trying to take a nap, Iíll be there. Making SURE I know what you want. ALL the time. Iíd NEVER pester you so much that you BEG me to leave for a while. Nope, wouldnít do that at all. Uhh uh, nope....

It would be REAL sweet if my dream comes true and we can build a treb where we are staying. Iím told thereís also a ready made target area next door. VIC, donít worry! At least not until the last day... right before I run to the plane.......
- Tony - Tuesday, 04/01/03 21:35:52 GMT

Spouse Alert!:

Whoa!! Never let your spouse read the forums... They'll (male or female) find out how much FUN this stuff is, and want payment commensurate with this level of entertainment.

Mine thinks all the stuff I buy for Smithing is just old rusty junk, if she knew it was FUN she'd want more cash to pi$$ away at the Indian Casinos in trade... ;-)

To top it off: If My wife found out other Smiths here on the forum were taking their wives to the Virgin Islands, using Blacksmithing as an excuse, I'd be dead meat -- she's lucky if she gets to ride to the farrier suppy store when I buy coal!

(Tongue planted firmly in cheek...)

P.S. Do I smell a vigilante treb squad brewing in paradise?
Zero - Tuesday, 04/01/03 23:49:22 GMT


Vigilante? Hardly, it's Department sanctioned, after all one of the Virgin Islands finest is part of the team.
Paw Paw - Wednesday, 04/02/03 02:36:29 GMT

Humane treatment of ammunition: Tony; It is always gratifying to come upon another individual who is at least as sensitive and caring as myself. Warm regards, 3fuzzypuppies
3dogs - Wednesday, 04/02/03 07:04:14 GMT

American Society of Arms Collectors: Gents, I'm looking for information on this particular group. Anybody got a hint? They don't seem to have a particularly strong presence on the internet.
Many thanks, 2 swords
Two Swords - Wednesday, 04/02/03 07:30:42 GMT

Two Swords:

Never heard of them.
Paw Paw - Wednesday, 04/02/03 15:34:05 GMT

Arms Collectors, etc:

Two Swords, try Dixie Gun works to see if they know? I've not heard of them either.

3dogs... I'm here for ya man! grin.

And soon, I'll be "There for ya". But I guess that's neither here nor there in the overall scheme of things.

Ok, that was bad....

"Humane treatment of ammunition" Seems like there's a bumper sticker in there somewhere.

Zero, it's my wife taking ME there. I just suggested VI so I could go see VIC's forge and steal all his good ideas.
- Tony - Wednesday, 04/02/03 16:48:37 GMT

Arms Collectors: Thanks Tony. Might be the only lead I get on trying to find em. The offer of a $5000 Fellowship (not of the Ring) to do antique weapons research is spurring me on. They're harder to find than the Dark One himself though....

Do be careful on the Islands. I've heard that imbibing rum to excess can alter your aim as well as your mood. No kerboomers, yeah?

PPW - thanks also!

Later gents.
Two Swords - Wednesday, 04/02/03 18:03:24 GMT

PPW: Paw Paw it's been two *days* already didn't you send the soft copy of chapter 2 so "G" didn't have to type it in with the 4oz ballpein in one hand whilst holding the hardcopy in the tongs???? (and if you did send hard copy you did remember to use heat resistant paper this time right?)

- Thomas Powers - Wednesday, 04/02/03 18:53:41 GMT


Guru has it, don't know whether he's finished the illustrations or not.
Paw Paw - Wednesday, 04/02/03 19:08:21 GMT

hi all the reason i'm postin' here is because i'm on a military puter and they won't allow me to go to chat rooms.i just wanted to tell everyone hi and i'm doin' fine.i'm still stateside and don't know when i'll leave.ya'll take care and i hope to talk to ya'll soon.
  Hotmetal - Wednesday, 04/02/03 20:18:16 GMT

hi all the reason i'm postin' here is because i'm on a military puter and they won't allow me to go to chat rooms.i just wanted to tell everyone hi and i'm doin' fine.i'm still stateside and don't know when i'll leave.ya'll take care and i hope to talk to ya'll soon.
  Hotmetal - Wednesday, 04/02/03 20:19:41 GMT


Keep us poste, Hot.
Paw Paw - Wednesday, 04/02/03 20:41:23 GMT

Hotmetal: Hotmetal, feel free to use the "virtual Hammer-in" to keep in touch, it's what it's here for IMNSHO...

As for possible souvenirs...I once judged a sword that was made from a spring that a tanker had blown off a target during practice...don't want any DU or something *really* mangled but there is a lot of scrap being made over there and the possibility of some kick-a** "momentos" to be made from them.

Remember Patton's advice on winning wars!

- Thomas Powers - Wednesday, 04/02/03 21:53:58 GMT


You going to build a "pig" forge when you get home? (grin)
Paw Paw - Wednesday, 04/02/03 22:30:57 GMT

Is that what it looks like? I'm only going by your descriptions of it since I don't yahOOohthespamiskillingme. All depends I guess. Gotta get there to see it first. Grin

Two swords, you are welcome. No, I'm not taking any cannon barrels along. grin. I'm sure I can get in enough trouble without. I've been advised to only bring bang makers if I like to stay there for a long time.
  Tony - Thursday, 04/03/03 04:49:18 GMT

Yahooey: Tony; I'm with you on Yahoo, Bro. They want too much info that ain't none of their bidness. Besides, I seem to remember Vic's can forge extrordinaire being featured on a while back. Didya hear about the British version of Yahoo? They wanna call it Ya whom. Remind me to be ashamed of myself later on. 3dogs
3dogs - Thursday, 04/03/03 08:50:58 GMT


I have yet to be spamed by Yahoo, and I just lie when they ask for personal info -- plus ALWAYS uncheck the box that asks if you want Yahoo to send you "notices" (i.e. Spam).

Another helpful tip is to get a free web-based email address (hotmail, etc...) and use that for likely spam-o-matic transactions. I check mine once a month, and delete everything. Seems many of the folks that write to me at that address, believe my manhood is too small and needs enlargement... ;-)

Rich's forge is indeed posted on Use the link below and page down about 1/3 -- you won't miss it!

Rich's wild forge
Zero - Thursday, 04/03/03 15:48:44 GMT

hi all,had a min. to get on the puter.i just wanted to say hi to some of my friends hi tom s.,bryan,woody,swampthing,jwolf,hope all is goin' well. i'm at ft campbell ky,don't know when i'm leaving.i went to the maintaince shop here on post today the have an old pw back in the corner but it's beat up pretty bad and a big swedge block.a man in the shop is goin' to hook me up with a bs here,hope to talk to him tommorrow.better go just wanted to say hi and let yall know i'm still kickin'
  hotmetal - Thursday, 04/03/03 18:17:30 GMT

Hotmetal: Hey, Troop, Yer in all of our thoughts and prayers. Now, get ON that ol' PW and impress the hell out of 'em, mebbe they won't let you leave! God Bless. 3dogs
3dogs - Thursday, 04/03/03 18:47:57 GMT

In Service etc: Hot, good luck buddy. Hope you can get back to your regular life soon. IN either case thanks for serving.....

Ralph - Thursday, 04/03/03 21:22:16 GMT

Zero, don't feel bad. They seem to think my manhood needs help too. Somehow, I've never been concerned. (grin)
Monica - Thursday, 04/03/03 22:09:47 GMT


Somehow, I think I'd better just leave that one alone! (grin)

Sheri gets them too, as long as she doesn't forward them to me, I don't worry about them. (bigger grin)
Paw Paw - Thursday, 04/03/03 22:15:34 GMT

Spam: I do the same thing Jim does, with the hokey freemail address. I don't delete my spam, though, I forward it to Jim so he can get the enlargement stuff and the low interest loan he'll need to pay for it. (grin)

Seriously, I pick one lucky recipient each month or so, (based on the span received the preivious month), and forward all spam to that spammer. They like it enopugh to send it, they should just love receiving it. (grin)

vicopper - Thursday, 04/03/03 22:41:47 GMT

So! It's you, Vic (Rich), clouding my cheap email account...

Here, all along, I thought it was because my
  Zero - Thursday, 04/03/03 23:22:04 GMT

That just ain't right: Dang, Monica, they got you too? Vic's idea looks to be the best so far. Requires a small amount of effort but the revenge payoff is worthwhile. Yahoo shovels it on (at least on me) and not only do they seem to find my manhood lacking, they promise to help my tiny bust as well. Probably time for new email. Sigh....
Two Swords - Friday, 04/04/03 08:32:20 GMT

Vic / Spam: Hmmmmm, I LIKE your idea Vic. However, I've got the spam filter set to 100%. If the sender's not on my e-mail list, it goes to Junk Mail. Only problem is Hotmail still counts it against my size limit.
Monica - Friday, 04/04/03 23:25:14 GMT

Spammin' the spammers: In reality, I know that my feeble efforts will never amount more than a flea bite on an elephant's butt, but it does my psyche good. (grin)
vicopper - Saturday, 04/05/03 00:38:12 GMT

Armalite/from guru page: sweet! Monica, any way to work up a blacksmith's discount for Armalites? (you knew SOMEBODY was going to ask, right?) Everybody keeps telling me .223 works great on coyotes. I like my .270 well enough, and my uncle has a beauty of a .243 bolt action, but well, there's always room for one more....

What if you're my new best friend? :insert bribery attempt: I make a heck of a good chocolate chip-and-tabasco cookie. heheheh.

As for a drive-by bayonetting, that would be more in Marklander territory, I'd say. Atli?
Two Swords - Sunday, 04/06/03 00:18:36 GMT

Two Swords:

The first M-16 that was handed to me got handed back to the supply sgt. (well actually, I threw it back to him) and I went out and "scrounged" an M-1.

I've still got an M-1. I *LIKE* my 30.06, thankyouverymuch!

Monica, nothing against you OR your dad, but I'll bet I can reach out further and touch someone with my M-1 that just about anyone can with an M-16.

I've seen chargin' charlie take five (5) .223 in body mass and keep coming till some one hit him in the head.
Paw Paw - Sunday, 04/06/03 01:14:35 GMT

M-16: Hey Paw Paw, I've got two Garands in my safe, but I've also got a Springfield M1A, and a AR-15. Sorry Monica, it's a Colt. :] The .223 round is great to shoot. And cheap when ya buy surplus. But that Colt is sure a lot nicer than the M-16 I carried in the Air Force.
Bob Harasim - Sunday, 04/06/03 02:33:59 GMT

BANG!: For reachin' out and touching someone, (such as a woodchuck, or some other form of lowlife of course) I rather enjoy a nice big long old Moisin- Nagant 7.62 x 54 Bolt action fitted with a suitable optical device. Good, cheap fun with a good ol' classic sniper piece, and, if one gets good enough with the first shot, one shot is all ya need then, ain't it?
3dogs - Sunday, 04/06/03 08:41:37 GMT

Bob, and 3dogs:

Bob, I know the M-16 is much improved, but first impressions.....

3dogs, The Moisin-Nagan should work, but the 7.62 round is considerably larger than the .223.
Paw Paw - Sunday, 04/06/03 13:12:22 GMT

7.62: Yeah, Jim, but that's just me. I figger, "Why use a lawn tractor if ya got a D-9. I just use 7.62 because I can't afford a 45-70 right now, and I've got no place to store a Howitzer at the moment. (BOG)
3dogs - Sunday, 04/06/03 15:15:00 GMT


I like my Winchester 30-30. You'd be surprised at how many "anti/non gun owners" think it's a Daisy Red Rider! So not only is it a nifty carbine, but stealth to boot...

My thumb still hurts from the first time I loaded a M1 ... ;-)

I'm surprised Monica's dad gets his AR's into this state. Most folks here are so anti-gun they're just slightly left of Gandhi.
Zero - Sunday, 04/06/03 18:37:00 GMT

Red Ryder: Jim,

I have a buddy here who held two burglars at "gunpoint" one night for half an hour until the troops arrived, using his trusty Red Ryder. The bandits swore that it was a shotgun that held them at bay. (grin)

Plese note: I do NOT advocate taking a BB gun to a gunfight. I am of the personal opinion that if you ain't prepared to revoke someone's birthday, you shouldn't risk pointing ANY kind of weapon at someone. If one is pointed at me, I will react very, very suddenly and violently, possibly before I have time to notice that it isn't a real gun. I'll be sad, but the guy with the toy gun will be very, very deceased.

The single best gun in the whole wide world is whatever gun I'm holding when I need it. (grin)
vicopper - Sunday, 04/06/03 18:53:58 GMT

BB Guns:

Rich: Yep, your all too right. I've had to curtail my boys from using BB guns here on the property, for fear someone will think it's a real gun. We have a canyon that I'd like to turn into a air rifle and bow range, where they'll be out of sight, out of mind.

Currently they're more interested in paint-ball (which looks nothing like a "real" gun), so time is on my side (welts are on theirs!)... ;-)

I'm slowly working on MY over-the-top forge. The wife just shakes her head at the ammount of time and effort I'm expending. Hope your happy that you can corrupt someone electronically 3500 miles away? ... ;-)

Zero - Sunday, 04/06/03 20:34:07 GMT

Others In My Area?: I'm a blacksmith in Shelton, WA looking for smithy friends close by to trade tips, techniques, share info, solve problems...whatever. Anyone nearby to Shelton?
Bob - Sunday, 04/06/03 22:47:15 GMT

Corruption: Jim,

Yes, I am. Though corruption is its own reward, usually! (grin)
vicopper - Monday, 04/07/03 01:36:49 GMT

Hello my brothers in the forge, im glad to be able to post on this web site, because i have searched far and wide for information and inspiration from others but have only managed to gain the wisdom of others through personal introductons. Because of the thoughts I have pondered for some long hours i have concluded the skills of old will serve a man well in his time. Im only 14 and im still very new to the trade and it would be "Rightiously Awesome" to get some feed back from you. Thank you for readng
  "Frolic" Dickerson - Monday, 04/07/03 01:55:12 GMT

Bob - Shelton: I am on Whidbey Island, if that fits your definition of close.
Coalforge - Monday, 04/07/03 03:50:18 GMT

BTC1, American Society of Arms Collectors: Book Three Chapter 1, Book Three Chapter 1, Book Three Chapter 1, Book Three Chapter 1, Book Three Chapter 1, by now coporate security has probably *read* the thing trying to figure out why I keep checking the site out...

Whilst perusing the stack of "Muzzle Blasts" the mag of the national association of Muzzle Loading folk (exact name is probably close to this) that I won at the SOFA raffle what to my wondering eye did appear but a full page add for the Am Soc of Arms Coll.---turns out they seem to be long rifle oriented and from the American Colonial period till the end of the muzzleloading era... Don't know if they will support *earlier* types of arms. I can get the exact cite if you need it---gave the stack to a local smith who shoots the small calibre stuff like .5".

- Thomas Powers - Monday, 04/07/03 14:14:20 GMT



It's nice to see a young man well versed in the english language, and interested in smithing -- a rare combination.

Wait... You don't want to forge a sword, do you??... ;-)
Zero - Monday, 04/07/03 15:12:47 GMT

B3C1: Follow the links from book one to book two. At the end of the index page for book two, there's a link to book 3 chapter 1. Now we're trying to get book 3 chapter 2 on line.
Paw Paw - Monday, 04/07/03 15:52:25 GMT

ArmaLite: 2-Swords Discount?? Only if you live in FL. and can get a FFL holder to do the transfer... But since we're short on coyotes down here, I doubt it.

PP, I did mention the AR-10. 308 beaut, just about stacks bullets out of the box. But if you really want to reach out and touch, then grab an AR-50. (grin) .50 BMG and less recoil than an M-14... Just make sure you don't have anything you're fond of in line with the gas vent system. I think Dad got the design ideas from the Howitzer.
Monica - Monday, 04/07/03 16:33:21 GMT

B3C1: Ahh Paw Paw, I *know* how to get to chapter 1 of book 3---I have worn a rut in the web backbone going there looking for Chapter 2....I don't need pictures, shoot he could use the ones that excitable folk keep spamming me with anyway if he wished...

What can we do to get the Guru a vacation? Don't want burn-out at anvilfire!

- Thomas Powers - Monday, 04/07/03 18:12:10 GMT

FIRST KNIFE: This is another of those all fired up messages... Just had a wonderful three day weekend at the Batson Blade Symposium at Tannehill. Lots of forging with lots of good folks, huge dump of new knowledge, good was hard coming back to work.

Forged out my first blade and did the heat treatment at the symposium - thanks to the horde of eager teachers - and collected all I need to finish the job. Last night when I got home I did the final filing. I'll post pictures when I get it done. :) Saw both the Bader B3 and the KMG-1 belt grinders. Got to try one, too. Trying to tell myself I need to be a little deeper into this before I spend that kind of money...

Anyway, it was a good weekend, and I feel like I'm overflowing. Figured folks here would understand. BTW, I wonder if I met any of you there?

Steve A - Monday, 04/07/03 18:15:30 GMT


Understand? Yep, many of us do.
Paw Paw - Monday, 04/07/03 18:27:46 GMT

Thomas Powers:

Wait till you see what I did to you guys in Chapter III! (chortle!)
Paw Paw - Monday, 04/07/03 18:28:44 GMT

Paw Paw: I have a Colt target version of AR15 with heavy barrel, and all the factory whistles, shoots fine to 300 yards, but my Springfield M1 consistently gives me better match scores, even with a "heavy" 80 grain bullet the .223 is just not a long range cartride esp. if there is any sort of wind.

I like 45-70 and up, but trajectory makes distance shooting a challenge. Has anyone tried the new 777 black powder substitute?
Ellen - Monday, 04/07/03 19:05:32 GMT

AR-50: Monica,

Now THAT sounds like a piece I could get to like. Only have to use it once and the word goes out real quick! Probably not available yet in the concealed-carryversion, huh? (grin)

vicopper - Monday, 04/07/03 23:18:10 GMT

Monica, Ellen, Vic:

I'll admit to being old fashioned, I just prefer my Garand. At any range out to about 750 - 1,000 yards, I know what I can do with it and what it'll do when it gets there. More than a 1,000 yards, I'll choose the .50 cal that was occasionally used in SE Asia. I'm not going to try a shot much over 1,500 yards, my eyes aren't good enough anymore.


Is the new 777 a form of Pyrodex? I haven't tried it yet, and have been curious. Nor have I ever used Pyrodex. I don't shoot black powder a whole lot, so I've still got a bit left.


Concealed-carry version? You couldn't conceal it if you stuck it up and elephant's butt!

Paw Paw - Monday, 04/07/03 23:59:53 GMT

I have shot a lot of black powder, and have tried various combinations with Pyrodex, but have not found it to be as accurate as plain old black powder. The 777 is a new, sulfer free black powder substitute which initial reports say is extremely accurate, and without the barrel fouling one must fight with black powder, yet it still has the satisfying cloud of smoke. I have a can of 777 and am looking forward to trying some in a front loader and in my Sharps.
Ellen - Tuesday, 04/08/03 00:17:19 GMT


Would you mind copying the name and manufacturer from the can for me? Or do you know of an on-line source?
Paw Paw - Tuesday, 04/08/03 00:46:37 GMT

Concealed-Carry .50 BMG:

Vic, Paw Paw, et al...

The guys that do my outside wire EDM work build a really sweet .50 -- though, even with my "Good Customer" discount is still WAY out of my price range.

These break-down nicely, so a guitar case would work for CC (IMHO, elephant's butts require too much gun field stripping and cleaning)... ;-)

EDM Arms .50 BMG
Zero - Tuesday, 04/08/03 00:46:38 GMT


Would cost almost $9,000 to set one up completely.
Paw Paw - Tuesday, 04/08/03 01:23:00 GMT

Question for Ellen:

Ellen: I don't shoot Cap & Ball, but I have a friend's .50 Hawken here in the shop with a ball stuck in the muzzle. The el-cheapo extractor will not pull it out, so I was going to make a new extractor out of 1/4 round 1018 with a drywall screw welded to the end.

I've soaked the muzzle end in PTFE based lube, and removed the nipple and hosed the backside down the same.

Anything I should look out for? Or, that will aide me in staying safe -- the thought of screwing a screw THROUGH a projectile that has a powder charge behind it has caused me to pause... ;-)

BTW: Love the fact that you and Monica chime-in on this stuff!
Zero - Tuesday, 04/08/03 01:32:28 GMT

Bullet extractors: Jim,

When I was doing firearms examination, I occasionally had to pull one through a bore. I used a piece of all-thread rod that was a reasonable diameter for the bore, with a self-drilling Tek screw welded to the end. A fender washer and a nut complete the setup for easy extraction.

BTW, I found that plain soapy water made a better pulling lube than anything else. It does keep the powder from presenting as much of a hazard, too. Juice it from the nipple with a syringe BEFORE shoving the screw through the bullet, and you'll feel better about5 the whole process. I'm sure I don't need to tell you to have the barrel in a vise and do everything while standing off to one side, do I? (grin)
vicopper - Tuesday, 04/08/03 01:45:04 GMT

Off to the side??:

Rich: I don't understand... I was going to thread a metal rod through a slug -- press-fit into the barrel, with a LIVE charge behind it -- then align it with my forehead and pound on it with my 3# cross pein.

Here, I'm doing it right now... (BANG!)

Okay, next question: How do you remove a 1/4" rod from your cranium -- I've never been good at looking in a mirror while trying to work... :-)

Safety First!

(after all, Paw Paw is the poster child... [Big Evil Grin])
Zero - Tuesday, 04/08/03 02:36:04 GMT


Use Vic's method. It's the safest and will work well.

Poster child, indeed! (Hrmph)
Paw Paw - Tuesday, 04/08/03 03:02:59 GMT

AR-50: Aww Paw Paw, it's only a dainty delicate 40 pounds... and shoulder heighth. Not too hard to hide.... If you're driving a Suburban.

And, I have to say I like the lack of recoil Lots on the AR-50. I snug my rifles into a torn rotator cuff. After about 30 rounds with a mini 14, I loose sensation in 3 of my fingers on my right hand. I can shoot the AR-10 and AR-50 all day long with no problems.

It also retails at $2,754, so for half the cash... I can buy more ammo.
Monica - Tuesday, 04/08/03 04:16:22 GMT

Incidently, I can work on the forge all day without messing up the shoulder at all... It's the direction of movement that matters. Swinging a hammer is fine. Sweeping the shop floor puts me in agony.
Monica - Tuesday, 04/08/03 04:17:59 GMT

Black powder - accuracy: I do have a question about the type of powder and accuracy issues with black powder. Locally noone caries black powder because of the extreme safety over-regulations. I can see how a different powder would produce different muzzle velocity, but is that how it affects accuracy? That and barrel fouling are the only two things that I can think of affecting trajectory.

I'm about to throttle by gunsmith. He keeps coming up with odd excuses for not finishing my .50 black powder rifle (and yes, I do mean rifle, not smooth bore). It's going to play heck getting powder for it. I don't remember what they call the stuff they have in the local shops, but it's about slug sized pellets, built for precussion cap. I'm getting a flint lock.
Monica - Tuesday, 04/08/03 04:24:29 GMT


Be easier to hide in a tank! (grin)

Thanks for the link!

Get someone else to sweep the floor! (grin)

Those slug sized pellets are probably Pyrodex. I've only fired it once, and didn't particularly care for it. No good reason, just didn't "feel" right.

If you and Ellen like black powder, you'd love the little .44 caliber, rifled barrel, flintlock, dueling pistol that Alan Longmire built for me! Next thing I'm going to get him to build is a .44 caliber, rifled barrel Kentucky style, "Buggy" rifle. All of my black powder arms are in .44 caliber. Only have to cast one size of bullet. I *LIKE* compatible ammo!

Paw Paw - Tuesday, 04/08/03 04:39:48 GMT

Paw Paw, Monica, et al: I saw pix of your flintlock pistol and salivated over it. .44 is a fine caliber, for muzzleloading rifles I like .50 and .54, as the elk are big here in the Rockies. .50 puts them down fast with one shot.

Pulling a live load from a muzzleloader. My preference has always been to pull the breechplug on an old load, wet the charge, pick it out, and push the ball out from breech to muzzle. If its been down there for 100 years you can damage the bore trying to pull it has always been my fear. Also, that old iron in the barrel is a lot softer than today's steels.

Black powder accuracy: I think consistency is the key, and I think pyrodex is overly sensitive to pressure of compression when you seat the ball with your ramrod. Just a hunch. I don't know why pyrodex in a cartridge is not as accurate for me, haven't figured that one out yet. Could be because I frequently shoot paper patch bullets and maybe the pryodex fouling plays havoc with the patch. Am going to try some lubed 540 grainers from my Sharps. Also, I do know that Pyrodex is a slower powder for ignition and that may induce some irregularity and inconsistency into the process. Pyrodex also generates higher internal pressures than black and is probably not a safe choice should you choose to shoot antique firearms.

777, or tripleseven, is made by Hodgden. They have a website, with a lot of info on 777. Apparently the Knight team just won a major match with 777. They also have a list of retailers who carry it.

Pellets: it is my understanding pyrodex pellets tend to ignite in an irregular fashion, in fact the literature indicates the ends of the pellet are coated with a faster burning substance to help this process. The Hogden website is touting 777 in pellets, but I think they may be of more interest to hunters than target shooters.

I am not an expert in this field, just sharing what works and has not worked for me.
Ellen - Tuesday, 04/08/03 05:12:44 GMT

correction: make that No "e".
Ellen - Tuesday, 04/08/03 05:18:47 GMT

Mercy!: What more could a feller want? Right here on Anvilfire we got at least 2 big-gun-totin', Iron bashin' wimmin, and here I sit with no sons! I gotta get some wimmin like that into the gene pool somehow!
3dogs - Tuesday, 04/08/03 06:43:55 GMT

Monica, Ellen:

Do you ladies have web sites? I've been collecting smith's web sites for some time now, and would love to add yours to my files.

Same goes for anyone else who has a site as well. At one point I had over a 100 sites listed, but when I lost my bookmark file I lost almost all of them. Am back up to almost 90.
Paw Paw - Tuesday, 04/08/03 07:50:59 GMT

Zero, the best method to extract rods from your cranium is to pound them on through, cut off any mushrooming on the end and then twisting the rod pull it back out---only side effect to worry about is the tendency to go into politics afterwards! (look up the details on the first lombotomy recorded---a powder monkey who tamped a charge he shouldn't have and ended up being walked into a small town general practitioner's office with the rod through his head---and survived!)

I tried printing Paw Paw's safety picture as a poster and hanging it up in the shop; but it kept scaring dogs and children...

- Thomas Powers - Tuesday, 04/08/03 13:10:32 GMT

TRB: Paw Paw what ya gonna do? Have a chapter told by the womenfolk? The bravery shown by those "at home" which could often be a war zone probably exceeded that of many of the soldiers in the "field". I'd expect that a certain lady was helping forge gun barrels all through the war...

Or a chapter where our male leads spend all the time down with dysentery? (was looking at a "tent" book where they mentioned one campaign where there were 4 times as many disease deaths as actual battle deaths---not Rev but later, yellow fever)

- Thomas Powers - Tuesday, 04/08/03 13:16:30 GMT


You'll see! (chuckle!)
Paw Paw - Tuesday, 04/08/03 14:43:48 GMT

Breech plug:

Ellen: Thanks! I thought the non-business end of this Hawken was solid, but upon closer inspection I see that the plug is threaded. This will simplify the task, and not subject my noggin to flying metal rods...
Zero - Tuesday, 04/08/03 15:12:50 GMT


I'll readily concede that removing the breech plug first, then removing the powder charge is the ideal way to "pull a charge".

But I'll question the method in some cases.

For example, the pistol that you were "lusting after" (and btw, that conjures up all KINDS of kinky images to my imagination!) it would be difficult, because the barrel would have to be removed from the stock first. And while that's not impossible, it's not real easy, either.

Then I want to ask why would you remove the ball from the muzzle instead of the breech? If you've got the breech plug out, why not just drive the ball that short distance out the breech, rather than trying to pull it all the way back to the muzzle. Even on said pistol, there's a considerable difference in the distance involved.
Paw Paw - Tuesday, 04/08/03 15:41:25 GMT

ball removal....: PPW, first I have not worked on guns.....
With that said, is the breech plug the same diameter as the ball? I suspect it is but since I do not know.
If the barrel is forged I am sure it is, but if it were bored out might the breech be sightly smaller?
So perhaps that is why the stuck ball needs to be pushed out the muzzle? But what do I know.... perhaps I will study up on gunsmithing, just as soon as I find that spare min I laid down somewheres......
Which leads me to Daylight Savings.... How come when we save daylight we can not store it and release it in the winter and cause longer light during the day? (g)
Ralph - Tuesday, 04/08/03 16:12:57 GMT

Paw Paw, alas I have no website.

I like to push the ball from the breech out the muzzle because the residue you pick out from behind the ball will still have some constrictive mass to it and it is hard to get it all out until the bore is clear and you can get a brush, loaded with solvent, or hot soapy water in to do the job. Easier to go from rear to front.

All of the breech plugs I have seen are larger (slightly) than the bore. The boring process left a hole completely thru the barrel (even when the barrel was welded it needed a bit of boring to get it uniform) and so the breech end was threaded a bit larger than the bore size.

Yes, the barrel needs to be...carefully...removed from the stock. The lock needs to be removed, and then the tang screws and barrel pins. It is A Good Idea to grind screwdriver blades to EXACTLY fit the screws involved, especially on an antique.

If you shoot the firearm much you will need to pull the lock (at a minimum) for cleaning periodically, esp. with flintlocks, or the powder residue will corrode the internal lockworks. Not a bad idea to periodically clean the exterior of the barrel as well, which means pulling it from the stock. Hawken style rifles have a hooked breechplug, also many shotguns, so all you have to do is pull barrel pins and lift it (or them) out.
Ellen - Tuesday, 04/08/03 16:28:58 GMT

Lock: Ellen; I can't find a lock to pull on my falconette---just the touchhole...misfires in it spook me big time. I wait 24 hours, soak from the muzzle and the touch hole and then ease the breech out standing to the side. Had a friend in the service who was straddling the barrel of an artilery piece trying to reduce a misfire---it fired---*OUCH* then he found out he was allergic to lanolin when they put lanolin impregnated bandages on the affected area...

- Thomas Powers - Tuesday, 04/08/03 17:09:49 GMT

kerbangers, ASAC: Monica, sorry to hear no discounts (grin). There are one or two FFL dealers in my area I do enough business with to make friends. Anybody ever go on It's like an eBay site just for guns & knives, but the pricing is not as out of whack as eBay. Very dangerous for my credit card.
I would agree with Paw Paw about the .223 round but what fun would there be in that? (grin - put that knife away PPW!) That said, an Armalite in .308 might get my attention. Friend of mine had a FN-FAL that was fun to shoot, and I DO prefer the heavier bullet (like my .270) for longer shots, or for shorter ones if there's wind, twigs, blades of grass....
Also Monica please be careful with torn cuffs. My wife is a Physical therapy asst - very handy to have around when your hobbies have the potential to cause you harm, and a nice lady besides - I get the lectures about rotator cuffs a lot. Way I understand it, they don't ever heal exactly right, and the more you aggravate them, the worse they get.
Black powder, well, that's something I haven't played with yet.
Thomas - if it's not a heap of trouble I would greatly appreciate any more information on Am Soc of Arms Collectors.
Two Swords - Tuesday, 04/08/03 17:14:00 GMT

Two Swords:

Knife? What knife? This isn't a knife, it's an interrogation tool.
Paw Paw - Tuesday, 04/08/03 20:17:51 GMT

Two Swords - Thanks for the concern over the shoulder. I got the tear early in high school, and have had a number of years to find out what I can and cannot do with my arm. Since the injury was well before the first time I picked a blacksmith's hammer, I was really cautious. But the hammerwork has proven to be no problem.

And my husband understands he gets to lug around the anvils, if I need them moved... and sweep. What can I say, I was very fortunate to fall for the right man. Only problem was my Dad approved. THAT almost scared me off! (grin)
Monica - Tuesday, 04/08/03 21:34:45 GMT

> Only problem was my Dad approved. THAT almost scared me off! (grin)

I had to laugh out loud at that one! Sheri's dad couldn't stand me! We were right, he was wrong. 43 years last February.
Paw Paw - Tuesday, 04/08/03 22:27:37 GMT

Not a knife??: PPW - I broke more knuckles on my (then-future) father in law than on anyone else before or since. Shot his favorite dog one hot summer evening too. I was provoked! Now he likes me. 6 years this month, but we're both young'uns.

Monica - good man, if your husband understands these things. Sounds like you've got a good handle on it. Tore my right cuff in high school too, swim team. Separated my left one and ripped a load of skin off it and lots of other places getting off my Kawasaki a few years ago. Eyewitnesses tell me it was spectacular.
Two Swords - Tuesday, 04/08/03 23:51:48 GMT

TS OUCH. Just had a friend get off of his harley the same way... spectacular that is.

PawPaw, I've kind of decided that Fathers usually don't like the right one because they know he'll "steal" his little girl. By the time my Dad met Wes, he'd come to the slow and painfull realization that his baby daughtor was NOT moving back home, even if he offered me 10 of his 30 acres and helped build the house (He offered the second 10 to my sister, and was going to live on the 3rd. We both declined).

Anyway, 2 years down and a lifetime to go.
Monica - Tuesday, 04/08/03 23:59:47 GMT

Stuck Balls: PPW, Ellen, Jim, et al.,

One reason I advocate pulling a jammed projectile, rather than pushing it, is just basic physics. When you push on a sphere or cylinder, the force of the push against the resistance of the barrel causes the projectile to become distorted. Essentially the same as upsetting. It tries to get "fatter", which just wedges all the tighter in the bore. That's why I like the self-drilling TEK screws for pulling. They drill exactly the right size pilot hole for the threads, so there is very little swelling. The pulling force doesn't try to smoosh (technical term), the slug out sideways, either.

The el-cheapo all-thread rod sold at your friendly local Home Despot or equivalent is usually softer than most all barrel materials, and the nut/washer extraction method is powerful but smooth. Like me. (grin)
vicopper - Wednesday, 04/09/03 00:00:51 GMT

More interesting:

Here I was going to say the breech plug won't come out of the Hawken barrel (YES, I'm using B'Laster!), so I'm falling back to Rich's idea of the simplified screw-jack (I was going to use a slide-hammer).

But... Ya'll are much more interesting with the topic at hand. Perhaps a new Soap Opera: "As The Anvil Turns" ... ;-)
Zero - Wednesday, 04/09/03 00:07:14 GMT

firearms: I have heard stories of the stuck bullets in muzzleloading firearms discharging when trying to remove with a bullet puller. somthing about friction and pressure generating enough BTUs to ignite the charge. Range officers at Friendship use a Co2 device to safley discharge a stuck round down range. There is a company that is making a m16 style rifle in 50 cal. Beowolf. I hearit has the same striking energy at 100 yds as a 458 winchester mag. I do know that when I saw it at the range it was ringing the 100yd targets like they were being hit with a sledge hammer.
- Stiffy - Wednesday, 04/09/03 01:21:32 GMT


Steal heck, I told him I was going to take her and I did it right in front of him. He even walked her down the aisle, though at the door of the church he did ask her if she was sure she wanted to do this.

I almost felt sorry for him, we were married just a bit under 60 days after my mother-in-law passed away. But before she did, she told us not to wait, so we didn't.

John finally admitted that he was wrong, on our 25th anniversery.


I can see the TEK screw working well for the purposse, I use them quite a bit. and the fender washer and nut should work well too, for a nice straight line pull. Just looks like it would work quicker with the shorter pull to the breech than to the muzzle.

Zero, squirt some of the B'Laster into the vent hole and let it soak both the powder and the threads from the inside. That should loosen it enough to remove it.

Stiffy, I've never used the CO2 bullet expellers, but they should work if you get a good cartridge to vent seal so all the pressure goes into the breech.
Paw Paw - Wednesday, 04/09/03 02:33:22 GMT

Vic, if we're talking a pure lead round ball which slid down the barrel with a ramrod, it will generally slide back out the muzzle without excessive force, especially if loaded with a patch originally.

If you are talking about a fairly fresh load down the barrel, CO2 will work great, or pulling from the front is also no problem. I was more into talking about getting an old load out, like in 50 or 100 years old. Pulling the breech plug in this instance allows you to clean up the barrel a lot better, and if need be, you can "freshen" the rifling to remove pitting....another story.

When you do get the breech plug out, it is a good idea to lube it with something so next time will be easier. This is true whether a new or an antique muzzleloader. Anti seize compounds used in automotive applications work well.

Ellen - Wednesday, 04/09/03 04:15:47 GMT

getting off (m'cycle that is): Sorry to hear, hope the friend is ok. Spectacular is never a good way to get off a bike.
Following the ball removal thread with interest, with permission I would like to copy & print when it's wound up, to give to a friend.
Two Swords - Wednesday, 04/09/03 06:32:13 GMT

Armalite: Monica; Special Weapons Magazine, (on the stands now) speaks well of Daddy Westrom's 180B. Sweet piece!
3dogs - Wednesday, 04/09/03 06:50:00 GMT

Breech plug:

Paw Paw: One step ahead of ya, I've been soaking both ends. My last attempt will be to scrounge a narrow plastic tube that the breech end of the barrel will fit in, and fill it with B'Laster -- squirting some dowm the muzzle as well -- and let it soak for a few days totally immersed.

I think the slug's been stuck 4-5 years, so it's not that old. 120 PSI air wouldn't move it though. I would like to pull the plug, so it will be easier to clean the bore (which I assume will need a good scrubbing). If not, then it's on to Rich's plan... "powerful but smooth" or was it "slow and easy"? ;-)
Zero - Wednesday, 04/09/03 15:45:33 GMT


If it's been in there that long, you will probably need to pull the breech plug anyway, to do a good job of cleaning the bore.

Do you have a socket that will fit the breech plug? Might be time to clamp (with pads!) the barrel into a big vise, slip a socket onto the breech plug and attach a 1/2" drive impact wrench.
Paw Paw - Wednesday, 04/09/03 16:47:11 GMT

Paw Paw:

My thought exactly.

The end of the breech plug is semi 3/8" square for maybe 1/8", then tapers up at ~ 30 degrees to a kind of "L" shape that locks the rear of the barrel down in the stock. I could make a square socket for the end out of an old 3/8" drive extention and weld it in a socket for the impact wrench (this is the exact reason I don't throw away old tools!) If I break it, I'll just machine a new one.

I'll let her soak for awhile longer and give it a try... Thanks!
Zero - Wednesday, 04/09/03 17:36:27 GMT

I rarely throw away old tools, for the same reason. They can always be made into something else.

You'd be surprised at the number of old flat pry bars I've used to make springs for small post vises.
Paw Paw - Wednesday, 04/09/03 17:52:31 GMT

Hi i am twelve years old and just starting to blacksmith. My dad and i are traveling the country. He took me out of school. We have been traveling for 7 months. Could anyone tell me where there are some cool shops that i could stop at.
- Cove Jasmin - Thursday, 04/10/03 21:11:04 GMT

Stuck ball: Zero I just had a thought, some caplock guns had the drum and nipple screwed into the breech to make it stronger. That may be why you can't unbreech it. One way to get the ball out is to clamp barrel in a vice pointed in safe direction and hold a handtourch to the drum until the firearm discharges, on the down side, if ball is not seated firmly on the powder it could blow up killing you.
- Stiffy - Thursday, 04/10/03 21:54:45 GMT


Sorry, but I'm going to dis-agree with you. The method you describe is dangerous at best.
Paw Paw - Thursday, 04/10/03 22:07:47 GMT

Stuck Ball: assuming the stuck ball is NOT from a muzzleloader you have loaded yourself it is extremely DANGEROUS to assume it can be SAFELY discharged by any means. Not all folks know to use blackpowder or a safe b.p. substitute in muzzloaders, they have been know to be loaded with some dangerous modern powders.
Ellen - Thursday, 04/10/03 23:03:25 GMT

discharged=fired, not CO2 discharge. Sorry!
Ellen - Thursday, 04/10/03 23:04:13 GMT

Loaded weapon:

Unless I verify the weapon is unloaded, it's dangerous -- Always, no exceptions...

My neighbor said: "Heat the breech plug up with your torch!" I said: "If I can rest the muzzle in your crotch!!"

Now I'm not a cap & ball guy, but I've built and shot plenty of firearms in my day. You treat them with respect (and they'll STILL try to kill you from time to time...).

We're soaking in B'Laster, time is on my side... :-)
Zero - Friday, 04/11/03 00:35:01 GMT

I seem to reacall a local gunsmith comment that he liked to use left handed threads on his breech plug. His rational was he would prefer no-one who didn't know what they were doing to mess things up. He gave strick, but impractical instructions to immediately contact him should something need worked on.

Is it possible that the stuck breech plug likewise has left-handed threads?
Monica - Friday, 04/11/03 21:31:55 GMT

"on the down side... it could kill you." This sounds like something my Dad would say, tounge pressed firmly in cheek. Then again, he is a proponent of Darwin, and keeps telling me that we're corrupting the gene pool by saving idiots from themselves.
Monica - Friday, 04/11/03 21:34:59 GMT


Possible, but not likely.
Paw Paw - Friday, 04/11/03 22:24:06 GMT


> we're corrupting the gene pool by saving idiots from themselves.

I agree with your dad.
Paw Paw - Friday, 04/11/03 23:35:38 GMT

Monica: I wholeheartedly second your Dad's sentiments! From helmet laws to ridiculous warning/disclaimer labels, the world is fast becoming designed for the inept to survive. Sweet, sentimental and wholly against the best interests of Humanity. A few more generations of this pap and there won't be anything BUT a shallow end in the gene pool.
vicopper - Friday, 04/11/03 23:59:06 GMT

Gene Pool: > we're corrupting the gene pool by saving idiots from themselves.

Oh gee. Too late for me. I've done reproduced .....twice. Reckon they ain't no hope for the world now. Oh well. Now why would I put blasting caps in the microwave? ....... Oh yeah. To dry them off.
- Larry - Saturday, 04/12/03 02:18:42 GMT


The REALLY scarey part is that there are idiot in this world who are stupid enough to do just that. Of course, MOST of them are news people.
Paw Paw - Saturday, 04/12/03 02:21:41 GMT

News Idiots: I agree with you on the news people Paw Paw. The bunch in Baghdad were raising hell because some got killed when they were in a free fire zone. Then the next day they were singing praises for the troops when the statue came down. They must be flip-flopping so they can get an even tan. Or maybe the political climate changed all of a sudden. You numbah one, GI.
- Larry - Sunday, 04/13/03 02:15:47 GMT


Numbah one today, numbah ten tommorow.

Bunch of ambulatory anuses!
Paw Paw - Sunday, 04/13/03 05:30:03 GMT

Neighbors: After reading the comments about obnoxious neighbors, i thought I had to share this.

As y'all may remember, I'm knew to having a shop. I started with propane, and have had my coal forge for less than a month. Well, it is possibly partially because I started with coke from Kaynes, but I play heck trying to get the coal fire started. I will get better with time, but right now it's still rough (and far to easy to give up and turn on the propane).

Anyway, I had wadded up newspaper, coke and some green coal and was trying to get a fire started, and getting NOTHING but smoke, and LOTS of it. My neighbor commented on the smoke, I told him what I was doing, and what my problem was. He said I needed something that burned better than newspaper, and I commented that a smith had suggested using lighter kindling, but I didn't have any.

I do now. He went rustling through his wood pile, in the dark, barefoot, and tossed me two logs of lighter! I LOVE MY NEIGHBORS HERE!!! And I live IN TOWN. Whoot!
Monica - Sunday, 04/13/03 14:45:48 GMT

Press: Yea. Idiots most of them.
Monica - Sunday, 04/13/03 14:47:55 GMT


Does the guy have flowers, a bird feeder, anything like that? Time to make your first (if it is the first) shepherd's crook and give it to them as a gift.

But, what ever, make them SOMETHING. Best investment in the world.
Paw Paw - Sunday, 04/13/03 15:25:02 GMT


Now back to the fire problem. A green fire, (all new coal) will put off a lot of smoke. Always. Just keep feeding it a gentle blast, and eventually the smoke will catch fire. It helps sometimes to poke a "chimney" hole into the pile of coal to allow the smoke to escape and ignite. Once the smoke ignites, you're home free. From there on it's just fire maintenance.
Paw Paw - Sunday, 04/13/03 15:27:21 GMT

Paw Paw's method of starting a fire.:

Wad up one or two paper towels.

Put them in the center of the firepot.

Build a "log cabin" of small kindling around the paper towels.

Surround the "cabin" with green coal, stacked as high as the cabin, with some stacked on the side away from you.

At this point, I do something that I don't advise others to do. I splash on about half a cup of chain saw fuel. Kerosene would be a lot safer.

Light the fire. Once the paper is burning good, and the "cabin" is starting to catch, turn on the air.

As soon as the wood is going good, rake some coal over top of the "cabin" from the pile at the back of the fire.

Watch the green smoke roll off of the pile. It looks like all that is happening is smoke, but that's not really the case. The smoke is the volatils boiling out of the coal.

Eventually, the smoke will ignite. At that point, increase the air blast just a little. Sometimes it helps to use the poker to poke a "chimney" into the coal pile to allow the smoke to escape easier.

When you can see the buring coals in the center of the fire, you're ready to go to work.
Paw Paw - Sunday, 04/13/03 15:33:40 GMT

Fire Starting for the Lazy: Monica:

If you have an acetylene torch (like a B tank plumbers torch or an oxy-acetylene set) you can do what lots of us do for an easy start. Pile up some leftover coke from the last fire in your firepot, stick the lit torch into the pile (but not pointing straight down) add a little air and you should have a going fire in a minute or so! Once the coke is going you add more green coal on and around it. You get very little smoke this way and you don't need any kindling. Of course you do want to be sure you always save a little of your coke from each fire.
SGensh - Monday, 04/14/03 14:24:53 GMT

:Promoting the Smity:: During the frist week of Augest 2003. Myself and DJ(part time simth) at the Muskoka Pioneer Village in Ontario. Are promting the smity. We will be working and living on site for the whole week. As they did back then. So If you are in area do stop in... Hope to you all there....
Barney - Monday, 04/14/03 14:27:35 GMT

yet another fire method: I use newspaper one or two sheets. Wad one into a ball. take the other and add a handful or so of walnut or hazelnut shells, then wad that up. Light paper place both pieces in forge and loosely pile coke on/arround. slow soft air addition and then you have a good fire in a min or so.
If you do not have shells I also use fir pieces. I have friends who are big into the hand painted wood crafts, and so they have lots of small pieces.
If you are down South where you can get fat wood then that works well. as do pine cones.
I also wish to emphasize what PawPaw said about the smoke. One of the volitiles given off is methane, which is EXPLOSIVE. given half a chance it will collect and explode with catastophic results. I know. Since it is lighter than air it will collect in a great bellows ( because that is how Murphy works) and then an errant spark and you have a HUGH explosion. Was heard just about 1/2 mile away. BTW the shop is made from 6 in timbers and the doors were closed. Screws were embedded into the far wall ( 25 feet away) Embedded completely. But no-one hurt thank God. (7 people)

So keep a slow steady air flow till smoke is gone. Also make a chiimney hole as PawPaw said. I also take my poker and let the tip get hot as I work the fire and use it to ignight the smoke.... tho that might not be the best but it works for me.....
Ralph - Monday, 04/14/03 19:18:26 GMT

fires still: BTW I do not like to add any gas or liquid fuels to my coal forge as they seem to hang around and flash at the most inopprtune times.....
Ralph - Monday, 04/14/03 19:19:26 GMT

Fire Starting: I was starting with Coke from Kayne's and Sons, to keep from smoking out my neighbors... practically no smoke, combustable or not. The only smoke I was getting was from the newspaper. It's all the more anoying because I used to do one match camp/cooking fires.

I'm only now trying my hand with green coal, since I'm told that pure coke is a PAIN to start. And my neighbors (obviously) don't have a problem with the forge, so I'm less worried about anoying them with smoke than I was when I bought the coke.

I do have to figure out what they'd like. Aside from the fact that I gave his mother a strey lab that I rescued, I'm not sure I can think of anything.
Monica - Monday, 04/14/03 22:21:16 GMT

Massey 2cwt questions: I'm looking at buying a 2cwt Massey 2 piece air hammer, and I have a short list of questions to ask. Can someone, who's actually got one, please tell me hat the anvil weighs, what the rest of the machine weighs, what horsepower the drive motor is and finally does anyone have installation drawings or the operator's manual that I can get a copy of?
- hammerman - Monday, 04/14/03 23:07:28 GMT

Fire Starting: I just turn on the gas and light the forge with a piece of newspaper. (grin)

On the rare occasion when I do any forging with coal, I've found the best method is to find out when Jack is going to have the forge going at the Botanical Gardens and then wander over there about an hour late. By then he has the fire up and running and I just heat 'n' beat! (big grin)

Monica, you're a braver person than I am, answering gun making questions. One of the profound things I came away from the S&W Gunsmiths/Armorers School with was, "Never give advice to amateurs, they inevitably do something dangerous and blame it on the advice they got." I can just see that guy making a trigger assembly with a soft sear that lets loose unpredictably. Scary. I duck all gun questions except shooting issues. I just can't seem to resist those. For the neighbors, how about a hose hanger? Really nice ones are impossible to find at the local hardware, and everybody wishes they had one.
vicopper - Tuesday, 04/15/03 04:57:23 GMT

Paw Paw: I think this is the book I was talking about:

_The Artist Blacksmith: Design and Techniques_
Peter Hubert Parkin
ISBN 1861264283

I'll check for sure when I get home.
Jim Wilson dJ - Tuesday, 04/15/03 21:32:07 GMT

Fire Starting: Vic, that's the problem. I'm usually firing up after work, and only work til perhaps 11pm, so I'm too inclined to give up on the coal forge and light the propane. But there's just some things that I think will just work better in coal (controlled heating of smaller areas).
Monica - Tuesday, 04/15/03 22:41:12 GMT

More on fires: Monica: I feel the same way sometimes, wanting a very tightly controlled fire. Sometimes I'll fire up the little hand-cranked forge with coal or charcoal, and other times I wimp out and light the O/A torch. I also sometimes try the torch first, then decide it isn't enough heat. At that point, I either use it to light the solid fuel forge or I preheat the work in the gasser and spot heat areas up to forging/welding heat with the torch.

The right solution is to have unlimited resources so you can have your helper/apprentice light all the different forges and have them ready and waiting when you show up. (grin)
vicopper - Tuesday, 04/15/03 23:05:29 GMT

Ummm, Yea, sure, have the apprentice light everything while I'm NOT there???? Vic, You're much more daring than I am.
Monica - Wednesday, 04/16/03 15:44:15 GMT

BOOM!: Monica; What's the problem? Isn't Florida known for blowing things up and occasionally launching them into space? (Smirk)
3dogs - Wednesday, 04/16/03 16:33:59 GMT

BOOM II: (No reference to the recent shuttle disaster intended)
3dogs - Wednesday, 04/16/03 16:36:34 GMT

D'oh! : Ooh, 3 dogs, paw in mouth. (grin) At least you didn't make fun of PPW's age. nuther grin.
I pasted something about this up "across the street" too. Just trying to share information and good fortune. A buddy of mine at work came up and said he got an ad/flyer in the mail. Gave me a coupon for HF's 110 Russian anvil at $60. I already bought one a while ago and while it's good at the price (no complaints really) I don't need 2. Good through early May. Any takers? This might be something that's available in store too, I haven't popped round to the local store lately. A little investigation might discover whether it's on sale across the entire chain, or whatever. Just thought I'd share that little tidbit of goodness with everybody.
Take care all, JAE
Two Swords - Wednesday, 04/16/03 18:13:47 GMT

Scrounging: I like my work. I clocked out and meandered to the steel shop to poke around. 14 test blanks and three rods later, I have more work to do. Hmmm, the 3/4 for tongs, the 1-1/2" will have to turn into a hot cut... 2 plates for the gillotine. Hey guys, any other suggestions for 1/2" thick by (on average) 2-1/2"x8" plate? Some HC, some low.
Monica - Wednesday, 04/16/03 21:59:25 GMT

Boom: Well, lets see, Dad's midlife crisis was a 57mm and an M5, mint, with ammo. I can make things go boom any time. I just prefer that to NOT happen in my shop.
Monica - Wednesday, 04/16/03 22:09:07 GMT

300lb Bates hammer: I am trying to find out how much a bates 300 lb.hammer is worth. Can anyone give me an idea. The hammer works well at this time, it has seen very little use in the last 15-20 yrs but I have used it for about 12 hrs in the last year and I had no problems.
- Dennis - Thursday, 04/17/03 04:11:38 GMT

Mo' D'oh: Two Swords; Paw in mouth not physically possible, all paws currently around back, coverin' my a$$. Far as PawPaw's birthday card collection goes, I imagine me 'n him's runnin' neck n' neck. Besides, we's both Wilsons, we was born old.
3dogs - Thursday, 04/17/03 06:31:36 GMT


"born old"

There's more truth in that than I like to admit.
Paw Paw - Thursday, 04/17/03 12:53:43 GMT

Bates,PPW: Bates, since there is no market for Bates hammers in Antartica I'd say that scrap rate was acceptable---I'm sure that if you were not in Antartica you would have mentioned your location since that can affect the price by a factor of 2 or more...

PPW remember it's not the years it's the milage---I'd guess you have seen the odometer turn over several times myself. When the "younger crowd" make fun of me---and I'm just a young-un myself I looks them up and down and tells them to loose some weight cause I'm getting tired of hauling their carcusses back to the swamp to bury...

The Mid Ohio Blacksmiths will have their Regularly Scheduled Meeting at the Same Old Place (Old Same Place?) This Saturday. Anybody needing more info just let me know
Thomas Powers - Thursday, 04/17/03 14:17:28 GMT

"Some people try to turn back their odometers. Not me. I want people to know why I look this way. I've traveled a long way and some of the roads weren't paved."

Paw Paw - Thursday, 04/17/03 18:13:22 GMT

Odometer: My sister started ragging on me when I started to get grey hair at 18. I pointed out that she's the one that helped give them to me. Now I'm supposed to freak about turning 30 this year, and I don't understand why.

Oddly enough, I'm looking forward to health improvements as I get older. I've got no ligament support to the ancle. Doc told me that when I get old and stiffen up, it will "get more normal" and stop dislocating randomly. I look forward to NOT waking up with my foot at a 45 degree tilt.
Monica - Thursday, 04/17/03 21:44:05 GMT

30 this year? You're just getting to the good part, lady! Old enough to know better, young enough to not give a darn, and smart enough to know when to say "WHOOPIE!". (GRIN)
Paw Paw - Friday, 04/18/03 02:09:40 GMT

re-rod: Does anyone know the metalurgy of re-rod, can it be made into a serviceable spear head for hog hunting? Thanks for any help!Jeff
- Jeff Gleason - Friday, 04/18/03 02:50:57 GMT

If by re-rod you mean rebar, or reinforcing rod, probably not. Rebar (what we call it in Carolina) is usuall left over scrap. It has to meed a tensile strength spec, but that's all, so it's inconsistent as Heck, and consequently a bit more difficult to work with. For your purposes, you'd be better of with a known alloy.

That said, rebar can be and is used for many decorativer projects.
Paw Paw - Friday, 04/18/03 02:56:20 GMT

Typos: usuall = usually
meed = meet

Paw Paw - Friday, 04/18/03 03:02:36 GMT

Decorativer ?: What's that, PawPaw, a Norwegian interior decorator? (smirk)
3dogs - Friday, 04/18/03 05:45:51 GMT

Geezerhood: "Getting old beats the hell out of the alternative!"
3dogs - Friday, 04/18/03 05:48:21 GMT

Another typo:

Decorativer = Decorative

Pbssssttt!!!!!!!!! (grin)
Paw Paw - Friday, 04/18/03 06:34:37 GMT

Hog hunting: Hogs don't like being hunted, right? Jeff, this sounds like one of those potentially ticklish hobbies where if you screw up you get "tickled." Adrenaline junkie? Maybe I'm reading too much into this and thinking along the lines of big ol' wild boars with great long pointy fangs, er, tusks. All I'm trying to say is I agree with the venerable and legendary Paw Paw. Steel is cheap. Buy good stuff.

PPW, 3dogs - "Born old" - interesting statement. And I'm sure there are activities one might engage in which make the ol' ododmeter turn a bit faster than others?

Monica - happy birthday. I hit 30 last November. It's been fun. You're completely right, there's nothing to freak over. My car insurance dropped a bit - that must be the "Whoopee!" that Paw Paw was talking about. Grin. Actually hoping my ankles loosen up over the next few years.
(visualize a husky bald fella with a short beard hoisting a bottle of Guinness, wishing you all good health) Slainte!
Two Swords - Friday, 04/18/03 08:47:08 GMT

Hawg Huntin': A picture came into my demented mind of Jeff, hiding in the bushes, waiting for an unsuspecting Harley to come by. He charges out, jamming a 5 foot piece of rebar into the spokes of the front wheel. The official safari photographer takes a picture of a proud Jeff in a heroic pose, with one foot on the fuel tank of the fallen beast. PawPaw, you may feel free to use the foregoing scenario in any future publications, with appropriate credits in the bibliography, of course. Best regards, Henry Wadsworth 3dogs
3dogs - Friday, 04/18/03 13:18:54 GMT

30!!: 30 ain't old! As Gabby Hayes was supposed to have said, "Shoot, I've got critters in my beard that's older'n that!"
3dogs - Friday, 04/18/03 14:46:13 GMT


Demented mind sounds about right! (LOL)
Paw Paw - Friday, 04/18/03 14:52:16 GMT

Hog Hunting: Jeff: I'm not sure I would want to give any advice about re-enacting scenarios from Lord of The Flies. Hunting wild boars with a spear of ANY material is something I would only do under the duress of impending starvation, after all other options had been tried first. Personally, I favor a 7mm Magnum from a safe distance. I saw one of those things turn on a dog once so fast that it looked like teleportation. I wouldn't go after one with any hand weapon, even if PawPaw was on flank with a Bushmaster. (no offense Jim, I'm just chicken...grin)

On the other hand, if you mean hunting Harley-Davidsons, a check book is a more appropriate weapon. I can assure you that anyone who comes at me and bike with only a spear is very badly under-equipped for the ensuing gunfight. (grin)

MOnica: Thirty was a great year. I keep re-living it in my mind (grin). They told me that I was over the hill when I hit forty, but they didn't tell me that the back side of that hill was a cliff! After fifty, the slope is steep and slippery, believe me. But still better than before!
vicopper - Friday, 04/18/03 16:49:39 GMT

Fire Starting: One method I have used is to buy a bag of wood pellets. Put a few crumpled newspapers into the forge, ignite them then dump a good bit of pellets on the burning paper. Give them a good blast, then when the pellets are going good(they can burn VERY fast, it depends greatly on the air blast) push the coal around them slowly building up the mound. One needs to keep a chimney for the exhaust to escape from the pellets just like the coal. The pellets being very dry ignite VERY easily.

If you are aesthetically inclined in the pyro area and who here isn't(grin). Then one can achieve a raging fire with a fire pot full of the wood pellets. Actually in the Yahoo groups my photo aptly named "bigolfire", my father(yes pyromania runs in the family) was burning some of my pellets. If you get nuts gust look out for the volcanoes and shower of sparks.

I put a link to my picture at Yahoo, but I don't know if it will access directly or not.

Caleb Ramsby
Link to my picture at Yahoo
Caleb Ramsby - Friday, 04/18/03 17:29:38 GMT

Road: Paw-Paw, un-paved? Having seen the pics over at I forge I'd say that some of them roads had been *mined*!

I was hoping for the "evil santa" look but the Docs said I have to keep the weight off...("evil santa" is when kids come running up to you yelling Santa! Santa! and you ask they what they want for Christmas and then say "I was going to get you that, but your parents said you'd like socks and underwear better!" or "I'll bring you a pony---I just hope your parents don't chop it into hamburger and hide it in the freezer" Ahh well, another opprotunity lost...

30, I got stepkids older than that! (explains the white hairs even though I'm too young for the AARP) 30 is a good year shoot we didn't stop having kids till my wife was 43....

Thomas Powers - Friday, 04/18/03 17:56:16 GMT

critters in the beard: Good to hear from you spring chickens (and all the other kinds - vic - big grin) about the aging process. Thomas P, (evil Santa) having never met you, I am starting nevertheless to form a very definite mental picture. 3dogs, I must admit I'm a bit concerned at the fact that that particular scenario was the first to come to your mind. 2 wheeled carnage aside though, it made me grin.

And no offense meant either, just for the record I'm chicken too - with you all the way on the 7mm and safe distance, Vic.
Two Swords - Friday, 04/18/03 18:24:13 GMT

Disclaimer notice: In keeping with the guidelines established by PETA, no bikers were injured during the making of the scenes depicted in the epic hallucination "HAWG HUNTIN'" (A Peyote Films Production) Best regards, Cecil B. De3dogs
3dogs - Friday, 04/18/03 18:55:56 GMT

Boar Hunting & other stuff:

Two Swords, There are a couple of activities that are guarenteed to "race your motor". I'd tell you what they are, but this is a family board.

Vic, Come on, where's your sense of adventure? I'll be shooting from a steady rest, so you'd be well covered. 20 feet up a tree DOES qualify as a steady rest, doesn't it?

When they told me I was over the hill, I asked, "What hill? I don't remember any hill!"


Now THAT is a fire!

Thomas, not mined but there were a few hand grenades along the way.

Paw Paw - Friday, 04/18/03 19:35:37 GMT

PETA: What's wrong with PETA? Doesn't it stand for

- Stephen G - Friday, 04/18/03 19:50:44 GMT

Back, hog hunting, AR50:
I'm back from my visit to VIC's paradise. It was great, but hot. Unfortunately, no treb time. My wife kept me busy and I couldn't get her bored enough with me. Did I say it was hot?

VIC has some very nice forged work! The gas forge is really not done justice by the pics either.

Oh... and it's hot down there. Waaaaay to hot to be near a anvil above critical temp ready for quenching!

VIC and his wife are great people. We had fun. Go visit him. But be prepared for some hot weather.

Driving on the left and Rum drinking in paradise are good fun too.

Not together of course. Mostly.

The ocean is great. To cool off in 'cause it's hot.


Monica, how does the AR50 compare to the Barrett stuff? Now I have TWO new things on the gun want list. A .50 BMG has been there for a long time, but I just got my new American Rifleman and S&W has a new .500 handgun with more muzzle energy than my .454 Casull! Sounds a nice gun. And they were using it to hunt wild boar. The guy with a .44 mag generally used three shots to be safe and the S&W .500 shut them down right now with one well placed shot. Sounds like something I should have. We got a lotta wild boar in WI. Grin.

- Tony - Friday, 04/18/03 20:40:28 GMT

MusKoka Pioneer Village:: Aug 2nd to Aug 9th in Ontario Canada at the Miuskoka Pioneer Village. Myself and DJ will be promoting the Blacksmith shop there. We will be living there on site in one of the cabins, for the whole week. Acting out making a living as they did in that time period.No hydro, running water just think of the good time we will have. So if anyone is in the area do stop in and chat abit. At the gate tell them you are seeing the Blacksmiths DJ & Barney. That way it will be no cost you.. Hope to see you there. scroll down to others and click on Barney the Blacksmith. You will then see myself and DJ... Chow for now..
Barney - Friday, 04/18/03 21:07:29 GMT

Welcome back Tony:

So... Was it warm in paradise? ;-)
Zero - Friday, 04/18/03 21:58:12 GMT

Tony: Sorry about the spell of cold weather we had while you were here. (grin) Next time come in early September when it is a bit warmer and sometimes pretty breezy (160 kts is "breezy", right?)

Seriously, Sally and I had an absolute ball with you guys. To show our appreciation, we're buying your favorite waitress a ticket to come visit you! You would be happy to put her up at your place for a couple weeks, wouldn't you?(huge grin)

Just so you know, it's been raining ever since you left. The guinea grass is 18" high already and the parking lot is turning into a mudhole. Not the kind you'd like, though. (grin)
vicopper - Friday, 04/18/03 22:25:16 GMT

steady rest: Paw Paw, "20 ft up a tree" har har. I think I read about some a'them real exciting activities you were hinting at. Grin. There WAS this one time at the junior prom....

Tony, welcome back. I understand it was warm down there. Just how warm was it? Grin.
Two Swords - Saturday, 04/19/03 05:11:21 GMT

lazy firestarting: Monica, I travel and do a lot of public demos and the easiest way I have found to build a fire in my forge takes just 5 steps./ Step 1, go to Wally world and buy a bag of MatchLight brand charcoal.Step 2/put 4 or 5 charcoal bricquets in firepot. Step 3/light bricquets with a match.Step 4/when said bricquets are burning well place 2 loose scoops of coke on top of said bricquets. Step 5/Go have a couple cups of coffee and by the time you get back your fire will be ready/
- Stiffy - Saturday, 04/19/03 05:36:11 GMT

THE waitress.... the rain..... the SUN!:
Aaaauuuuuuggggghhhhh! NO! Not "THE Waitress"! No, pleeeeeez NO!

Hey, wasn't it bad enough she followed us around to different restaurants?

Send her on my friend. I do now have the proper tools to sew lips shut. Big Grin. Well meaning she was. There was just too much well meaning for me to absorb. My "well meaning" cistern was full after 30 seconds. I have to admit I was a mite irritated when she took 4 trips to remember a glass of water.

And I'm glad I could bring the rain with us to fill your cisterns. It rained every day but one I think. Such a hardship though.... bathtub temp rain is fun to walk and swim in and I don't think it ever lasted more than 20 minutes. Then the SUN! came out again. We have sun in WI, but in paradise, they have SUN!

Do you think the "Earth Watch" turtle egg "saving" woman was put off when we told her she was messing with natural selection?

Regarding breezy... I don't need to experience one of those hurricane thingies. I'm still cleaning up tree branches from the ice storm we had here while we were down there. That will be not close at all to a hurricane, but close enough. Big Grin.

Zero and Two Swords, I don't know the actual temp. Let's just say this northern boy was sweating at 6 am sitting in a beach chair with swim shorts on. I don't mind sweating, but I like to be working while sweating. Cripes. I think I was sweating while swimming! Call me a wimp. Grin. There was a pretty constant breeze and that WAS nice.

Hey VIC, did the JB weld work?
- Tony - Saturday, 04/19/03 12:22:13 GMT

Tony & Vic:

JB Weld?? JB WELD????????

You DIDN'T? Please say you didn't REALLY?????
Paw Paw - Saturday, 04/19/03 12:38:51 GMT

JB weld: Now Paw Paw..... don't get excited. Forge welding the cat's tail back on wouldn't have been very humane, would it? You know how scared I am of those PETA ruffians!
- Tony - Saturday, 04/19/03 12:55:20 GMT

RE-BAR: See FAQs page
- guru - Saturday, 04/19/03 18:10:37 GMT

Massey Hammer: I've got specs somewhere. E-mail me about them if you still need them.
- guru - Saturday, 04/19/03 18:11:27 GMT

Bates Hammer: Never heard of a Bates. Is this in the US?

Almost all (99.9%) of all mechanical power hammers are no longer made OR supported for parts. Those that parts ARE available must have the parts made to order in many cases.

A 300 pound hammer is a nice sized machine. A buddy of mine was PAID $500 to haul a nice one away. He turned around and sold it for $5000 some years later after much use. This is typical, so the price is somewhere between -$500US and $5000 US.

But I wouldn't give too much for a mechanical hammer unless it was AWFUL pretty and I had the work to feed it. That much money could go a long ways toward a newer air hammer.
- guru - Saturday, 04/19/03 18:18:00 GMT

JB Weld: Really Jim, it was the only good solution to the problem at hand. Clapped out threaded holes in a weed whacker cylinder where the muffler bolts on. Drilled, tapped, Loctite, re-drilled, re-tapped, aviation Loctite, and the sucker still fell off. After that it is either use the JB magic or buy a new weed whacker. The JB weld was cheaper. Besides, my engineer recommended it! (grin) I'll bet you never imported an engineer to oversee fixing a lawn tool, did you? I take these little chores VERY seriously. (grin)
vicopper - Saturday, 04/19/03 18:20:33 GMT

De iLands mon. .: Tony got to visit VIC first? No fair! :)

Waitress of the damned. . We have too many of them up here already. I had one in DC that tried to clear our plates with half eaten steak on them. . I threatened to skew her hand with my fork. . . But that was in DC. Most server folk in the rest of Virgina are pretty good.

Waitress of the damned part II . . . No matter how bad she was Paw-Paw would still flirt with her. . . of course the kind of things HE'D say might shut her up. . .

Paw-Paw doesn't remember the "hill" he was over because he was too busy jumping out of airplanes and from 15,000 ft. all the hills look like little ones. . . :)

30 aint over the hill. It is still on the UP side. Now 50 is another story. . . . 30 is only old from a teenager's point of view. I'd be tickled pink to be 30 again. Just as good as 18 from my view point.

JBWeld a cat's tail. . . ? Naaaa . . . Duct tape is the answer!
- guru - Saturday, 04/19/03 18:39:38 GMT


Sigh! Rich, have you forgotten all you learned in exhaust systems 101? Any exhaust system, be it a two-cycle weed-whacker or a D9, can be fixed with baling wire and a beer can.

I would also use this method to repair a cat's tail. I strongly disagree with Jock's use of duct tape -- Kitty litter and other undesirable excrement will stick to the tape. ;-)

I'm surprised Tony suggested JB Weld. As a brethren in Jeep ownership, he HAS to know the versatility of baling wire! Perhaps the heat clouded his judgement?? ... ;-)

Lastly: The worst waitress in paradise has to be better than the best waitress stateside -- Paw Paw flirting not factored-in. ;-o
Zero - Saturday, 04/19/03 19:47:47 GMT

Waitress: This little cutie had to have been imported from somewhere in the southeast part of the States, judging from her accent. She was really something to behold. Babbled on incessantly, came around the table every six or seven minutes, and had to be told everything at least three times. It truly did take her more than four trips back and forth before she brought Tony his water. By the end of the meal, had we been paying any attention, we would have known her entire life story, philosophy and religious beliefs, I think. We were all exhausted just listening to her. And then Tony had the privelege of running into her a day or so later at lunch. (grin)

It really wasn't the cat's tail, it was the tail of the fish that the cat had in its mouth. Everyone knows that fish are best repaired with JB weld because it's waterproof. As for the weedwhacker, I woulda just used a humongous hose clamp, but I didn't have one on hand. Baling wire is in short supply here, since most of the cars on the island are held together with it. (grin)
vicopper - Sunday, 04/20/03 01:57:11 GMT

Jb Weld and other esoterica...:
On the weedwhacker... yaall(this is word the waitress would have used as she was in fact from the Atlanta area) gotta remember this was a German weedwacker. Those chermans like to make stuff so it's hard to kluge it. Recessed bolt holes in the muffler, no other sliding locator, etc. It was JB weld or helicoil and why not try it, hey?

Having never used JB weld on an exhaust system, I really AM curious how it worked and holds up. I have used JB weld to hold radiators in after a certain amount of "above design level" knocking around caused the solder joints between the mounts and the tanks to let go. It's been there for over a year now. I also have JB weld holding back power steering fluid covering a pinhole in a power steering cooler end manifold. That's been there quite a few years. Just gotta try this stuff ya know? Push the envelope and see where it tears. Grin!

And yes, the heat was clouding my judgement.

Or was it the Rum? Anyway, I didn't think to ask if VIC had helicoils until a few days later. grin

VIC DID try to hold a discussion with THE waitress. When it was a waste of time, he even got in a sly, but serious rip on her. She didn't notice. Her existence was all about her. My water was secondary. Such is life. Grin!

My favorite waitress line..... When asked by the waitress what I'd like to have, the answer is.... Hmmm, since this is a public forum, maybe I shouldn't say....

Use your imagination. It's frequently better than reality anyway! Grin!!

- Tony - Sunday, 04/20/03 13:01:51 GMT

JB Smithing: Tony, I forgot to tell you that the engine block I glued together with JB weld held up for over a year after I sold it. A miracle of modern plasticurgy (new technical term).

The weed whacker hasn't been put in service yet, apparently Irene and the yard guy are having a "failure to communicate." Those usually only last a week or so, so we'll know more in a couple of weeks.
vicopper - Sunday, 04/20/03 13:35:50 GMT

Waiting: Easy on the waitstaff guys. Don't know if I've ever mentioned this before, but I pay for this little hobby by waiting tables at night. It would have taken a lot more than 4 trips for me to bring water. I tell folks they can drink water at home. Course I work in a pub and would be happy to go over our tequila and scotch selection with you, but water... you're on your own. Had a grown man grab my butt one time cuz he wanted more coffee. I'M A GUY! This being a family forum, let me just say the gentleman in question will not likely make the same mistake again. My boss was laughing too hard to fire me. I probably should have been. He told the girls at work if anyone gets out of line to come and get me.
Gronk - Sunday, 04/20/03 15:40:15 GMT

Waiting: I used to be a waiter also, actually I was a host/waiter/assistant bar tender(I was young)/set up for banquets/busser(in the begining) and anything else that needed to be done.

Waiting was easily the most challenging of them all. The most important quality that a server can have is the ability to instantly read the customer's personality. The second is to maintain an abundent supply of beverages(even the auxilary ones!). I ALWAYS gave a coffee drinker a pitcher of the dark stuff, ALWAYS! If a customer drank more that half a glass of water while they were deciding what they wanted to eat I would ALWAYS bring them a pitcher of water, even if they were alone.

Then again I would also force some customers to drink(for free of course) one of my beverage concoctions. The best was the half Mountian Dew, half Orange Juice(Juice first) with a splash of Doctor Pepper, it requires a strong stomach though. Then I got a bunch of customers hooked on my frozen mints(they crackle in your mouth)!

The restaurant/bar being in a Hotel, I had some interisting morning shifts, this being a public forum there are not many night storys I can tell. Once I had a guy come to breakfast alone, order some food, coffee and juice. Then give me a puzzled look and asked me what STATE he was in! I said the state of confusion, and boy was I right. Yes, I am considering installing a computer chip in my pants.

It is true that tips are a majority of a servers income, usualy a server get's an hourly wage that is lower than minimum wage and if their declared tips don't make up for the differance, then they get compensated to reach minimum wage.

However if the server doesn't realize that they are perturbing the customer, than they deserve what they get and don't belong in the buisness. It was a challenging job, taking care of four tables or more and then a group of ten just appear that don't understand that when one walks behind the flaping doors things don't magicly happen. Then when machines break down and things start to go wrong behind the sceens it got REALLY interisting.

Good times.

Caleb Ramsby
- Caleb Ramsby - Sunday, 04/20/03 18:09:31 GMT

Reminds of an incident that happened a couple years ago when my wife and I went out with another couple. The waitress was young and not too good at her job. She started complaining about how she hadn't got very many tips that day. My friend told her not to worry, we would leave her a whole dollar.
  Larry - Sunday, 04/20/03 23:15:10 GMT

Esoterica, et cetera: Tony,my man! Greetings from the wilds of Albuquerque! Surely, in your intellectual exchanges with the waitress, you didn't introduce the ever popular "Shepherd's Repast", did you? Best regards, Tres Perros de Michigan
- 3dogs - Monday, 04/21/03 17:38:40 GMT


I've used that. Worked a couple of time.
Paw Paw - Monday, 04/21/03 17:44:27 GMT

"30 is only old from a teenager's point of view. I'd be tickled pink to be 30 again. Just as good as 18 from my view point."

Jock; when I was 18 they were babbling about "never trust anybody over 30." Harumph! I seldom trusted anybody UNDER 30! I knew my contemporaries, and their limitations!

Of course, my wif doesn't think I've progressed much past 18. ;-)
Bruce Blackistone (Atli) - Monday, 04/21/03 18:34:29 GMT

Don't think I would like to go back to 18 knowing what I do now---would miss all that fun I had making a young man's mistakes and would worry too much about surviving them to try doing them over!

Thomas---instead of dying young and leaving a good looking corpse I'd thought I'd just try to die *old* and slip the mortician and extra thou for the extra work...
  Thomas Powers - Monday, 04/21/03 19:26:45 GMT

AR50 VS Barrett: Quickest answer I can give for the comparison between AR-50 and Barrett is Recoil. The AR-50 has less recoil than an M14, enough to notice, not enough to damage. Much less than a M1 Garand. The Barrett beats the snot out of you. I like shooting, but I don't want to be too sore to pick up a hammer for the next two weeks after a trip out to the range.
Monica - Monday, 04/21/03 22:09:56 GMT

Beating rebar into spears: I was shown hunting spears in Tanzania made of rebar. Looked like #5, heated up and beat flat to a sort of spear point, mounted in a wood pole. "Vertical for lion, horizontal for..."

Thirty? And already discovered this stuff? At thirty I was still burning too much time and energy on other stuff. No real regrets, but I sometimes think about how I'd kind of like to have ten or fifteen years back. Not too much, though, because either way I'm that much closer Home. I'd really say my mid-late thirties are a lot better than the years around thirty. :)

Steve A - Monday, 04/21/03 22:19:15 GMT


I'd go back to being 30, if it was one of them "Time Travel" deals. I'd invest in this newfangled thing called the "Internet", start a dot com and sell-out in the mid to late '90's. Perfect!

Just being 30 again (without time travel) would be a waste -- or in my case: a SMALLER WAIST... ;-)
Zero - Monday, 04/21/03 23:12:27 GMT

Stuff du jour....:
3dogs, there was NO "intellectual exchanges" to be had with THE waitress. I'm usually up to a game, but this time I let VIC have at it and just shut up. Grin. So, tell me... what's the "Shepherd's Repast"?

BTW, I recognize the wait staff job as a very difficult one and have a lot of respect for those who do it well. But like any job, if you don't do it well, you should change jobs!

Monica, Thanks! Now I just gotta go try one somewhere. Well, that and see how much my wife really loves me. Grin. I had heard that the Barrett was a bit punishing. Normally I can shoot just about anything and not have a shoulder problem. But there was one day that I had to sight in a 12 Ga. slug gun and a new to me .300 mag rifle with synthetic stock. I shot the first slug and had a terrible pain in the shoulder. Couldn't figure it out so I shot another. And got another pain jolt. So I gave up on the slug gun and picked up the .300 First shot just about took me to my knees. It's a light gun and my loads were kinda hot.

Then I figured out I had bibs on and the strap buckle was in the wrong spot.

I've not made THAT mistake again. grin

I'm having more fun now than I did between 27 and 40. But, much to my wifes listening displeasure, I would give it all up to live like I did in High School. What a hoot!

Bruce, there is no rule that says you have to mature past 18. Grin!!

Gotta go forge some 1/8 by 3/4 stock to hard way rings....
- Tony - Tuesday, 04/22/03 00:38:31 GMT


A shepherd's repast?

A cup of coffe and a piece of ewe.

Don't ask for it if you wife is along, she might mis-understand. (grin)
Paw Paw - Tuesday, 04/22/03 00:42:20 GMT

looking for tools or where to buy tools: hello i recently built a forge it works well for steel but i dont have the right tools i was wondering where to find tools either online or a store in lancaster county pennsylvania thanks wayne
wayne - Tuesday, 04/22/03 04:24:51 GMT

Two of our advertisers sell blacksmithing tools. I've purchased from both of them and trust both of them. Kayne and Son and Pieh Tool Company are their names, Check the banners at the top of the pages.
Paw Paw - Tuesday, 04/22/03 04:45:13 GMT

Unlike Paw Paw, I'm too impatient to wait for the right banner to pop up. I use the navigate bar on the upper right-hand side of the page to go to my favorite suppliers. Also, many smiths make their own tools, and the iforge demos section on this site has a number of great tool making demonstrations. Of course, to make your own tools, you still need a few of the basics i.e. hammer, tongs, anvil and a hardie.

Paw Paw:
I refuse to believe such a lame pick-up line has ever worked for anyone, and if so, I'd have to seriously question the quality of the catch you could reel in with such dubious bait. (wry grin)
eander4 - Tuesday, 04/22/03 05:43:28 GMT


I don't know, I've never used it. Sheri would kill me! (grin)
Paw Paw - Tuesday, 04/22/03 05:47:42 GMT

PawPaw: I thought we executed that 2 man set up and delivery rather well, didn't you?
- 3dogs - Tuesday, 04/22/03 06:32:25 GMT


Someday I'll tell the story of my favorite pick up line.
Paw Paw - Tuesday, 04/22/03 13:22:28 GMT

Age:: Good grief, I am only 23 and I already feel that my youth is sliping away, well the lack of wisdom at least. I have always had a problem with people my own age, their is never anything in their heads that is worth discovering so I always conversed with the people that are older, sometimes wiser and always more senile. You know great-great-grandparents like you guys. I should probaly run and hide now, but I am sure that you guys can't hobble too fast. uh oh, what was that flash of light in the distance?

Tony, You are absolutly correct. I wouldn't take a part to a machine shop and still pay good money for a poor job.

Caleb Ramsby - Tuesday, 04/22/03 17:15:02 GMT

Caleb: Just remember "old age and treachery will triumph over youth and skill"....look around at your age mates----see all the dangeroust things they do? *We* are the ones who have survived, we can show our scars and when we say that something is *not* a good idea to do we may know it by direct experience!

Someday *you* may be one of *us*-----IFF you survive the long walk with Darwin!

"Flash of Light" Ha! when was the last time you checked what was in the bottom of your quench do keep an ABC fire extinguisher handy right?

The more I meet smiths still active in their 80's and 90's the more I hope to get there myself!

Thomas "Middle Aged"---isn't that a time period after the dark ages and before the renaissance???
- Thomas Powers - Tuesday, 04/22/03 17:30:20 GMT

Caleb, now I have a use for my first knife, the one that's now in the polishing stages and will someday be sharpened. That is, if PPW doesn't use his knife before I get done... But I know what you mean, or at least dimly remember, through all the senility, how frustrated I was with the folks my own age.

Pickup lines... from Lethal Weapon... "Aww, come on, please? Come on, say yes. Everyone else always says no..." It worked well in the movie; never has done much for me. ;)

Steve A - Tuesday, 04/22/03 17:44:21 GMT


Life is like Jackass - The Movie... If you survive, you'll get to make a sequel.

I don't use any pick-up lines. My lime green polyester leisure suit does all the work for me -- now THAT was fashion!

Now if I could just remember where I put that skinning knife, I'd start on Caleb 'till Paw Paw is done sharpening his... ;-)

Zero - Tuesday, 04/22/03 18:17:50 GMT

> You know great-great-grandparents like you guys. I should probably run and hide now, but I am sure that you guys can't hobble too fast. uh oh, what was that flash of light in the distance?

You can out-run me, but can you out run a 30.06?

Where'd I leave my knife, this time!

Actually, some folks mature much earlier than their peer group. I had the same problem, and even this many years down the road, it still feels the same.
Paw Paw - Tuesday, 04/22/03 20:21:48 GMT

Pick Up Lines:

The SFC is leading PT for his A team. It's SFC Wilson's day to lead the run, so everyong knows where the run it going to end. Right in front of the Snack Bar. Cause SFC Wilson wants a cup of coffee and a cherry turn-over. So when he calls out, "Quick Time, March! Hut two three four. Team, Halt!" No body is surprised that that's where they are. And as usualy, SFC Wilson is the first one to go through the door.

As he leave the register he notices that only one table in the snack bar is occupied. By a cute little, Red Headed Spc4. She's wearing a maroon beret (Airborne type) and an EOD badge in addition to her jump wings. And everything is right where it belongs, all assembled in a nice neat package.

He stops at her table and asks if the other seat is taken. She looks around at all the empty tables ans says, "No, but why?"

He answers, "Because if I sit with you, my captain will think I'm trying to get a date and leave me alone. If I sit any where else, he'll want to talk to me, and I don't want to talk to the SOB for a while!"

She laughs and says, "Sit down, Sarge!"

Yes, I got a date before I got up. Two nights later, for our third date, we wore our dress uniforms to a good resturant in town for dinner.

Nice girl, free spirit, the memories are good.
Paw Paw - Tuesday, 04/22/03 20:30:37 GMT

Knives and crazy old men:: Come on guys, I would think that a rusty, old spoon would have a more intense effect then a sharp knife. Well, I guese when one ages, ones manual dexterity goes away and options become more narrow. Tisk, Tisk, Tisk. (manic laughter)

If I set up enough diversionary tactics, modified street side stands, like a free change of depends with each bottle of prune juice, buy a set of false teeth get a free wig, with the purchase of a walker one gets 10 tickets for a free reminder of what one was going to do and where they are(you wouldn't remember you had the tickets anyway!) and buy a rascal get free picture of yourself yelling at the sky again. Well I should probably stop now, most of you most likely need to empty your blatter again. grin

Caleb Ramsby
Caleb Ramsby - Tuesday, 04/22/03 20:32:07 GMT

Early Wisdom: Paw Paw,

"Actually, some folks mature much earlier than their peer group. I had the same problem, and even this many years down the road, it still feels the same."

That isn't good, I was hoping that things would even out when I got older, as would my friends. I have noticed that some people just never figure out that they should be learning things through their lives and using that knowledge to obtain wisdom. I have met some people in their 80's 90's that are just as ignorant and un-wise as when they were 12 and on the other hand I have seen the exact oposite.


I know a few people that I can't believe havn't killed themselvs 1,000 times over. I think that God is just keeping them alive for our and his entertainment, but some people just can't be killed by conventional means. One of my friends grandfathers used to wash his hands in carbon tet(even after it was taken off of the market) and he lived to be over 80, although he did die of cancer of everything. . .

Caleb Ramsby
Caleb Ramsby - Tuesday, 04/22/03 20:42:08 GMT

Caleb: I don't use a knife...or a spoon...the horn of a russian anvil dipped in kerosene is the proper caleb skinning tool then it makes a dandy lifevest for the remains, always did like them cat fish, done eat a lot of them in my time, wouldn hurt to feed them more than bait now and then...

Glad to see you have a sense of humour it will get you through a lot of rough times.

Growing up I liked talking with folks who had a lot of experiences in life but still had that youthfull enthusiasm and the urge to learn new things and a sense of whimsy---I call it "the spark of divine madness" and still look for it in my associates---some of which are older, some younger all "crazy as a hoot owl" (I got friends who build bloomery furnaces and smelt wrought iron from ore in *august* while they are camping!)

- Thomas Powers - Tuesday, 04/22/03 21:39:46 GMT

LIFE.........: what you do while you're waitin' to die. Enjoy.
- 3dogs - Tuesday, 04/22/03 22:28:33 GMT


> enthusiasm, the urge to learn, and spark of divine madness

(yes, I re-worded it a bit)

You know, that's a darn good recipe for a happy life. And age doesn't have a thing to do with it, it's all attitude.
Paw Paw - Tuesday, 04/22/03 22:32:01 GMT

Caleb the Whippersnapper: Great-great-grandparents indeed! It behooves you to remember that I number among my friends far more backhoe operators than medics. Remember, you can run but you'll only die tired that way!(grin)

You're only as old as you want to be.
vicopper - Wednesday, 04/23/03 00:08:41 GMT

Just finished up making 20 centerpieces for #1 son's wedding reception. 3 legged stands with a center hook, and a ring & bail to hold a glass candle holder. Making that many identical parts in not my long suit (and they arent- VBG- each unit is a unique piece). I was somewhat flattered that they asked me to make them, both kids are tickled with the results.
Brian C - Wednesday, 04/23/03 00:52:19 GMT

The dying thing can happen all of a sudden like. I say get as much respectful fun and accomplishment in as you can, lest the dying part catch you unawares. Grin!

- Tony, on the second time around and darn glad the first one wasn't good enough to stick! - Wednesday, 04/23/03 02:45:11 GMT

Ewe: Jeez, I gotta say that's kinda bad. But in a good way.

Going into a diner for lunch, all dirty, hot and sweaty from masonry work and saying with a big 'ol grin...

"I'll have your thighs just as they are" Didn't work very good most of the time either though.... Grin. Mostly just a got a good natured slap.

Couldn't get away with that much now any more I guess. As the Gunslinger said, the world has moved on.
- Tony - Wednesday, 04/23/03 02:55:15 GMT

> As the Gunslinger said, the world has moved on.

And not in a good direction, I don't think.
Paw Paw - Wednesday, 04/23/03 03:39:57 GMT

There's old and there's bold, but there ain't no old bold.
- 3dogs - Wednesday, 04/23/03 06:27:34 GMT

Sheperd's Repast - SCOK!: PPW - you have any idea how much it burns to have hot coffee come out your nose on its way to the keyboard? You fellas have to warn a body! My wife's family raised sheep for years along with other critters, so of course I'll have to share that little gem with the in-laws. Just brightened my day considerably, even factoring in the loss of nose hairs and olfactory sensation.

Caleb - careful taunting the old 'uns, they are MEAN. Big grin. There's an SCA filk type song (Mike Longcor) that sums it up nicely with one line, "Old swordsmen get to be that way, by being Very good."

To your comments on Darwinism, I can only add that there are also those who are only alive due to legal protection.
Two Swords - Wednesday, 04/23/03 06:44:09 GMT

Two Swords:

Always a privilege to help educate the younger generation! (big grin)
Paw Paw - Wednesday, 04/23/03 08:05:50 GMT

You have just about exhausted the age thread, but I would to add my bit of wisdom:
You are only young once, but you can be immature for the rest of your life.
You are never too old to be a dirty old man.
Big A
  Alister Wells - Wednesday, 04/23/03 11:21:02 GMT

What happened to the "like"?
Proof then post?
Big A - Wednesday, 04/23/03 11:22:50 GMT

Sigh: Done given up on Ch 2 until the turn of the month...

You know I once talked with an orthopedic blacksmith---did custom braces and things in WWII for a hospital (a local hospital still has a big anvil in the depths according to a another source that was a janitor there...) He was called in to do a hip brace on a WAC since he was the only married smith at that facility...amazing what smiths end up doing...


- Thomas Powers - Wednesday, 04/23/03 21:40:58 GMT

Caleb, one problem now is a lot of younger folks who are too mature for me. They seem to want me to act my age. I tried that, wasn't any fun. So I have friends of all chronological ages; anyone who lets me misbehave and be eccentric. Even better if they do the same.

Steve A - Wednesday, 04/23/03 22:18:54 GMT

Repast Revisited: PawPaw; Who'da thunk we'd have got two of 'em with that'n? The old classics just live on. Just like us. "Don't complain about getting old. Too many are denied the privelege."
- 3dogs - Thursday, 04/24/03 00:11:37 GMT

3dogs: I figured on one, cause the question was asked. But I never expected two.

You just added another tag line to my collection.
Paw Paw - Thursday, 04/24/03 00:22:16 GMT

Strap Buckle: OWWWWW! Enough said.

First time Dad took the company to the range to shoot the 50, most of the old staff well, hesitated. Dad intentionally had the first shooter be the little (90# max) high school work exchange student shoot first. Something about the fact that she wasn't afraid of it because she didn't know that .50 bmg was supposed to hurt. Alot of old jaws dropped when she asked if she had to let someone else shoot, of if she could continue.

Two-Swords - Hey, what kingdom are you in? Trimaris here
Monica - Thursday, 04/24/03 00:25:34 GMT

Age: Life is what happens when you're planning other things.

Though I am the youngest with my circle of friends, for the same reasons you've mentioned, Caleb. I'm one of the few ladies to have someone overestimate their age by 7 years and not get upset. (Lizza remembered that I was the youngest, just not how much of a youngster I was. I was complimented to be considered that much of a peer.)
Monica - Thursday, 04/24/03 00:29:16 GMT


A lady of any age is always a lady.
Paw Paw - Thursday, 04/24/03 01:06:05 GMT

Monica and all shooters: Back in the late fifties, the issue weapon of the US Army Infantry was the US Garand, 30.06 caliber, metal butt plate.

Lot's of young troops got broken collar bones because they didn't know how to position it.

I had already fired over a thousand rounds through the weapon, every time my dad's company went to the range, I went with them. Any range, any weapon. By the time I was 17 and entering the service, I had already "qualified" with every small arm in the army inventory.

The evening before we went to the range for the first time, I went to the PX. Paid a buck for a box of 12 sanitary napkins. Caught a lot of teasing when I opened one in the barracks the next morning, tied it in place on my right shoulder, and put my fatigue jacket on over it.

That evening, when we came back to the barracks, I sold the other 11 pads for a buck apiece. Got mine free, and made $10 besides!

More than one way to kill a cat. You don't have to drown them in butter. That works, but it makes them slippery and hard to skin! (grin)
Paw Paw - Thursday, 04/24/03 01:12:20 GMT

Big Guns: I just sent Paw Paw a video of some big gun shooting. I think I'll let him tell you just how hilarious it is. All I can say is it must kick a lot more than the AR 50, and one sanitary napkin wouldn't help a bit.
- Bob Harasim - Thursday, 04/24/03 01:40:54 GMT

Napkins: PawPaw; In my platoon we tied them around our elbows for going thru the ilfiltration course sand pit. I really think the Platoon Sgts all got together and tried to see who could come up with the most silliassed things to get a bunch of E-1's to do with Kotex. Of course you KNOW that the cutest young girl clerk in the whole PX would be at the cash register when you went to check out, too! We also put cigarette filters in the muzzle and wrapped another napkin around the receiver of our Garands, austensibly to keep the sand out.
- 3dogs - Thursday, 04/24/03 23:43:44 GMT

Mo' M1: 'Course you always had a range instructor who would impress everybody by firing the weapon with the butt plate on his chin. Never had the cojones to try that one myself, though.
- 3dogs - Thursday, 04/24/03 23:54:23 GMT


Fish food! Why not just turn me into fuel and use me to propel your conveyance?

The younger old, well my grandfather is 85 and often mistaken as his sons age, who are in their early 60's and are mistaken to be in their late 40's early 50's. So yipee for heritage.


Run! I'll stand my ground. . . and make sure there is a tiger trap between me and you. grin


Congradultions, on both your sons wedding and your work! I can guarante that their children will cherish them in another 50 years.


Most importantly, do what you enjoy, even if it meens a sacrafice.


I must disagree, I know many who are old and bold. Be is luck, divine intervention or just being a superior person, many very bold persons have lived to a great age.

Two swords,

I recently have seen a warning sticker on a cord for a cordless drill batery recharger that had warnings in four different languages and none of them were english. However there was english in the instructions and english on the drill and box. I don't exactly know what the boggle was.

Big A,

Must just be a sign of age. grin

Monica and Steve A,

It has been rather strange for the past 8 years between 15 and 19 people thought I was much older than I was, some thought I was in my mid twentys and now I am mistaken to be younger than I am. So far things have worked to my advantage.

However now it does depend on what circumstance the people meet me and what phase I am in, my manic depressive personality tends to throw most people for a loop. One week I am bursting with energy and bouncing off the walls and the next quitly introspective and usually reading a bunch of text books. So it confuses some people.

Caleb Ramsby
Caleb Ramsby - Friday, 04/25/03 00:07:32 GMT

3 dogs:
Mo M1

Fired one there, fired one off of my ahem pelvis. Hold it in place tight enough, doesn't hurt. Thought my boys were gonna crap out when I did the pelvic shot with a 12 ga. (grin)
Paw Paw - Friday, 04/25/03 01:10:57 GMT

Heat Treating: What is the correct procedure for hardening a ball pien hammer head after it has been forged and reshaped? Many thanks for any info. David
- David - Friday, 04/25/03 14:50:43 GMT

Big Guns - Bob Harasim: Hey, I think that would be halarious. Would you post it here?

- Monica - Friday, 04/25/03 15:56:02 GMT

Mo M1: I think I was 7 the first time I shot a garand. Prone position, where the force has nowhere to go but into the body. Standing offhand, sitting, or kneeling you can at least take some of the force by rocking.

M-14 at full auto is one thing I don't shoot again. From the hip it walked me backwards in three rounds. Kept the muzzle down, but I couldn't recover from the recoil before the next shot went off. That was at 17, and near full grown. I won't get into details, but I do come from good Nordic stock. Dainty I am not.
Monica - Friday, 04/25/03 16:03:57 GMT

I should mention that at 17, I'd been shooting full auto for 10 years (Tommy, M-16 A2, M1 Carbine and some bipod rifles). I've also been shooting the M-14 for some time. That's why I was able to keep the muzzle down, even though it walked me backwards. Very... memorial occurance. My big sister watched me, and then refused to shoot it full auto at all.
Monica - Friday, 04/25/03 16:14:54 GMT

PETA: I know I missed the Hawg/PETA discussion, but....
I live right here in PETA's backyard. Here it stands for:

P eople
E mbarassing the
T idewater
A rea

Hope to see y'all at the Fling!
robcostello - Friday, 04/25/03 16:32:32 GMT


You should have seen what the old .45 caliber grease gun did to me the first time I fired it off hand.
Paw Paw - Friday, 04/25/03 17:32:43 GMT

heat treating: David,
It all depends on how you want to go about it. First anneal it. Then to harden you bring to critical temp and quench. I would guess oil , at least it is fairly safe. After hard you can bake in the oven for a couple of hours.
Ralph - Friday, 04/25/03 18:57:24 GMT

I was never allowed to shoot a pistol until I hit 16-ish. Full auto since 7, but no pistol. It seems my uncle's first time out with a pistol, he lost his grip on the recoil and threw the semi-auto pistol behind him... where my grandfather reflexively caught it... looking down the barrel. Not a happy grandfather.
Monica - Friday, 04/25/03 23:36:01 GMT

For the non-gun folks, semi-auto pistol means that the next round was loaded, pistol cocked and ready when he caught it. Really not happy grandfather.
Monica - Friday, 04/25/03 23:37:35 GMT


If that sear had been just a little bit more worn, or he had caught it differently, you might not be here..

I'm glad it didn't work out that way.
Paw Paw - Friday, 04/25/03 23:49:57 GMT

Guns: When I was young, I was as fascinated with guns and shooting as every young kid growing up in the west. A few years as a rangemaster for the cops cured me of the fascination, though. It became pretty much another chore after a while. Up until the day that all the rangemasters along the front range got invited to the local Army base to help use up old munitions.

I got to spend the day blasting away willy-nilly with just about everything the Army had to offer, short of the really huge cannon on the tank. For some reason, they just weren't willing to trust us with something that could shoot a few miles and blow up whole buildings. (grin) But I still had a ball! A belt-fed .50 on a Jeep is a truly testosterone-satisfying piece of equipment, and a Vulcan minigun on an APC is my idea of an urban renewal device. I was astounded at the huge pile of brass that thing produced in just a couple of seconds! I was really grateful for the crew of fresh new enlisted guys they had policing the brass. (grin) I'll bet we shot up a million bucks worth of ammo in about eight hours. Waaaay better than Disneyland!
vicopper - Saturday, 04/26/03 00:48:02 GMT


Lucky dog! (grin)

I've always loved full auto. And I don't really know why, I'm still a better than average shot with any rifle, pistol, semi-auto weapon of any type. I don't get to shoot as much as I used to, but still manage to get a few rounds off occasionally. Planning on some black powder tomorrow afternoon.
Paw Paw - Saturday, 04/26/03 00:53:06 GMT

hardening ball peen: David, The eyes of hammer heads are not hardened, the main reason being that the thin wall either side of the eye will chill faster than the thicker head and [ball], sometimes causing a crack. I normally use the "wet rag method". Hammers are often made of 1080 steel. I heat only the head at the edge of a coke fire to a medium cherry and quench vertically in water agitating in a figure-eight fashion. Bring it out when it quits making the "cush" noise. It will be slightly warm, which helps prevent cracking. I use an old hand-held abrasive wheel on the face and take it to virgin metal. Leave it scratchy. Don't polish or burnish. The tempering tool is a turned eye of at least 3/4" square section MS. Leave a length for a handle. With the hammer eye in the vise and the head upwards, I drop the welding-heat turned eye over the head, a reasonably tight fit. Watch for tempering color. I have had good luck with dark straw. It sometimes takes two tempering tools heated at the same time, and leaving one soaking while you use the first. Use a pour of water to "hold the temper".

Wrap a big wet rag around the finished head and hold with large bolt tongs. Heat the ball peen at the edge of the coke fire, continuously dribbling water on the rag. You're attempting to keep heat from ruining the head temper. You don't want it hotter than a dark straw, about 465ļF. The peen is quenched vertically at a medium cherry...tongs, rag and all. Figure-eight. You can use almost any heat source for tempering the peen end as long as you keep the wet rag in place. I will often use an oxy-acetelyne flame directing the tip away from the ball end and a little towards the hammer eye. Abrade the scale on the ball surface and wait for the temper color of purple or blue. Again, pour on water to "hold the temper".

The head of a forging hammer is often tempered "harder" than the peen, because with repeated use, the head wants to hollow in the center.
Frank Turley - Saturday, 04/26/03 01:15:16 GMT

PawPaw: Full auto is fun if somebody else is buying the ammo (or if you're just shooting up the taxes you already paid). (grin)

I still teach, and advocate, learning to make just one or two do the job. And if I have to go up against someone in a firefight, I would much rather it was one of the spray-n-pray fools and not someone like you who knows how to make the one count. A trained pro who doesn't want to announce his deeds to the whole neighborhood is a MUCH deadlier foe than any gang-banger with a Mac-10. (Absolutely the WORST POS ever called a firearm.)

But damn, that Was FUN! Like livin' in comic book land.
vicopper - Saturday, 04/26/03 15:08:22 GMT


Usually when I was firing full auto, someone else was buying the ammo. The US Taxpayer was my patron. (wry grin) But spray and pray aint' the way!

I probably can't do it any more but I used to be able to have someone else call the burst count to me with the M-60 and then fill the call. Any where from 1 round, (yes, it is possible) to a 100 rounds, on call. Just takes good reflexes and a fast trigger finger. And a fast trigger finger is handy for other things too. (evil grin) Like video games, get your minds out of the gutter! (LOL)
Paw Paw - Saturday, 04/26/03 17:50:00 GMT

Anvil Mag: Anyone have any dealings with Anvil Mag? End of December I sent them a check for some back issues on rebuilding post vices. They haven't cashed my check and have not returned my e-mail. And the phone number I've got doesn't work either.
- Bob Harasim - Sunday, 04/27/03 00:32:08 GMT

Army Things: The sweetest military weapon I ever fired was the M-14. Sorry Paw Paw, I never got to handle an M-1 Garand. We were one of the last classes to train with the 14 at Knox in '69. I was also issued one in Germany, but wound up carrying a .45 auto on my gate guard duties. Then when I transferred to Nam I was handed an M-79 "Blooper" and another .45. The "Blooper" was a nice little weapon. Looked like a short fat barreled single shot shotgun that fired 40 mm rounds. High explosive,smoke, tear gas, buck shot. I was armed for bear. Never was trained on the .45. When I hit Fire Base Snuffy at Bu Gia Map one of the sarges handed me a box of ammo and sent me out to the trash dump to get a feel for the Colt. First shot I gripped her tight and squeezed off a round. You guessed it. The slide came back, reloaded and cocked the weapon. Also laid about a two inch gash in the back of my hand. Learned to hold low on the grip real fast
- Larry - Sunday, 04/27/03 01:19:33 GMT

Weapons: there was a time when my job required a qualifying score with the .38 revolver, Remington 870, M-14 rifle and the old Browning 30 cal. machine gun. Then we updated to the M-16 and the M-60 . Training called for you to be able to fire a burst of six with the M-60.
Brian C - Sunday, 04/27/03 01:33:14 GMT

Auto Pistols: Nothing teaches you better about the proper grip for a pistol than that slide. Seen a number of old wheelgun shooters collect that trophy scar across the knuckle of the left thumb, even after I told them a dozen times that it was gonna happen. The slide only had to tell 'em once. (grin)
vicopper - Sunday, 04/27/03 01:37:40 GMT

Well, guys, I'm having a little trouble with that commandment about covetousness tonight. Today was the first day of a forge building workshop where a bunch of us get together to build a bunch of forges, and everybody takes one home. Played with some toys I'd never got to before: plasma cutter, MIG with shielding gas, autodarkening helmet. That stuff is NICE. May have to go in for the helmet, at least, sooner than I'd planned. ;)

Full auto: I keep getting sick or injured every time I think I'm going to get to try full auto. Someday... I learned to hunt with a single shot. Good for making the shot count. Even now, having long since "graduated" to repeaters of various action types, I'll find myself taking one shot and then just watching, knowing that there's no second shot to be had in time for it to matter. If I miss, I just watch the quarry run or fly off... and then come to my senses and work the action. ;)

Steve A - Sunday, 04/27/03 02:08:17 GMT

Anvil Mag: Bob H:
Rob Edwards, the editor is a good guy and straight forward..I'd guess that with handling the production for the ABANANA mags now too that he just got swamped..not the kinda guy who is gonna cheat anyone for sure.
Anvil mag has a good website...might try contacting him thru there
- Pete F - Sunday, 04/27/03 08:33:31 GMT


Actually, You have fired an M-1 Garand. But it had been re-chambered, and rebored to 7.62 mm instead of 30.06, and had been re-structured to accept a 20 round box magazine instead of an 8 round clip.

Which totally screwed up the balance of the weapon, but that's another story entirely.
Paw Paw - Sunday, 04/27/03 13:15:47 GMT

Guns and forges: All this talk about Garands! First time I shot mine, I fired 60 rounds just wearing my t-shirt. Didn't think it had much kick. Much less than my Ruger 77 in 30-06. My wife can shoot that Garand, the Ruger would land me in diviorce court.
Picked up a Champion Forge riveter forge and blower today for $125. Don't know why, got two homebuilt forges already. But it didn't seem like too bad a deal, so I bought it. Now where in the heck am I gonna put it? :]
Bob Harasim - Sunday, 04/27/03 23:59:37 GMT


Where are you located? Interested in selling the Champion?
Paw Paw - Monday, 04/28/03 00:50:44 GMT

Forge: I'm up here in Michigan, Grand Rapids to be exact. And I probably will sell the forge. I was hoping to pass it on to a beginner that could really use something like this. Great set up to start on, I would think. And a whole lot less time spent building one, like I did.
Bob Harasim - Monday, 04/28/03 01:28:22 GMT

Did I lend my copies of the plans for the Civil War Forge Cart to anyone on here?
Paw Paw - Monday, 04/28/03 01:30:08 GMT

Just got laid off, (almost 14 years with Lucent), I won't be hanging around until I get home access set up.

Thomas Powers
  Thomas Powers - Monday, 04/28/03 17:36:17 GMT


Large corporations have no conscious, no morals, and deserve no loyalty.

Hope you get hooked up soon.
Paw Paw - Monday, 04/28/03 18:09:29 GMT

We will miss your valuable input on all things ancient. Let us know if you need anything. You have many friends here.
- guru - Monday, 04/28/03 19:07:53 GMT

Civil War Forge Cart: Paw Paw. I wish. Sounds like really interesting plans. Let me guess, out of print, and unfindable?
- Monica - Monday, 04/28/03 21:11:39 GMT

Thomas: Hurry back. You will be missed.
Monica - Monday, 04/28/03 21:13:09 GMT

layoffs: Thomas,
I am saddened to hear of the layoff. I hope things look up soon.
Ralph - Monday, 04/28/03 22:10:08 GMT

layoffs: Thomas,
I am saddened to hear of the layoff. I hope things look up soon.
Ralph - Monday, 04/28/03 22:10:22 GMT


Actually no. I know where I got my set and am in the process of trying to get a replacement set. If I do, I'll be willing to make copies for cost.

But I will not let ANYONE borrow my set again! (grin)
Paw Paw - Monday, 04/28/03 22:16:27 GMT

Long: This little poem is long, but I just can't resist it. Be warned, it's political in nature, and not 100% accurate.

The Way to Paris

Eleven thousand soldiers
lay beneath the dirt and stone,
all buried on a distant land
so far away from home.

For just a strip of dismal beach
they paid a hero's price,
to save a foreign nation
they all made the sacrifice.

And now the shores of Normandy
are lined with stones of white;
Americans who didn't turn
from someone else's plight.

Eleven thousand reasons
for the French to take our side,
but in the moment of our need,
they chose to run and hide.

Chirac said every war means loss,
perhaps for France that's true,
for they've lost every battle
since the days of Waterloo.

Without a soldier worth a damn
to be found in the region,
the French became the only land
to need a Foreign Legion.

You French all say we're arrogant.
Well hell, we've earned the right--
We saved your sorry nation
when you lacked the guts to fight.

But now you've made a big mistake,
and one that you'll regret;
you took sides with our enemies,
and that we won't forget.

It wasn't just our citizens
you spit on when you turned,
but every one of ours who fell
the day the towers burned.

You spit upon our soldiers,
on our pilots and Marines,
and now you'll get a little sense
of just what payback means.

So keep your Paris fashions
and your wine and your champagne,
and find some other market
that will buy your aeroplanes.

And try to find somebody else
to wear your French cologne,
for you're about to find out
what it means to stand alone.

You see, you need us far more
than we ever needed you.
America has better friends
who know how to be true.

I'd rather stand with warriors
who have the will and might,
than huddle in the dark with those
whose only flag is white.

I'll take the Brits, the Aussies,
the Israelis and the rest,
for when it comes to valor
we have seen that they're the best.

We'll count on one another
as we face a moment dire,
while you sit on the sideline
with a sign "friendship for hire."

We'll win this war without you
and we'll total up the cost,
and take it from your foreign aid,
and then you'll feel the loss.

And when your nation starts to fall,
well Frenchie, you can spare us,
just call the Germans for a hand,
they know the way to Paris.
Paw Paw - Tuesday, 04/29/03 01:06:00 GMT

Bob Harasim: Bob About your riviters forge I'm in need of such a forge due to the fact that I'm young I've just graduated from college and am need to be moble. I'm located in ohio and wouldn't mind going up to Michigan for a day or so to pick up such a forge. E-mail me and let me know if we can work something out.
- Journyman - Tuesday, 04/29/03 02:15:50 GMT

Paw-Paw: that poem about Paris really hits where it hurts. In their pocket book. I just hope our leaders will make it happen.
Anvillain - Tuesday, 04/29/03 04:35:28 GMT


I doubt that the leadership will make it happen, but the people have already done quite a bit. The informal "boycott" is having an effect.

This really isn't the venue for a long discussion, I probably shouldn't have posted it. But I just couldn't resist it.
Paw Paw - Tuesday, 04/29/03 06:04:40 GMT

GREAT poem PawPaw! Who wrote it?
- 3dogs - Tuesday, 04/29/03 06:59:03 GMT

Paw Paw - Tuesday, 04/29/03 07:32:57 GMT

Poem: Salute on the poem. Though this is no more off topic than the firearm ramble. Well, the black powder were on topic enough, the modern was off topic.
Monica - Tuesday, 04/29/03 15:23:07 GMT

carbs to oil.....: Here is an interesting article that I was sent.
Hope y'll might enjoy it
Ralph - Tuesday, 04/29/03 17:31:09 GMT


If I had enough money to make a difference, I'd invest in that process in a New York Minute!
Paw Paw - Tuesday, 04/29/03 17:54:54 GMT

you and me both. I am wondering if perhaps it might be made more affordable in the future. Of course if the oil companys buy it then the answer is no, but I can hope......
Kinda goes with something I saw a few years back on THC. It was avout recycling (mostly sewage) using all naturalstuff. Plants, bugs and microbes. In a cascading pond system.... crap in and at teh other end was a garden and fresh water....It was set up in a house, sorta like an arboruim/atrium thing. And according to the reporter it was clean smelling from start to end.
Ralph - Tuesday, 04/29/03 19:35:27 GMT


I suspect that start up money will always be relatively high, but the process should pay for itself pretty rapidly.
Paw Paw - Tuesday, 04/29/03 19:56:35 GMT

Northwest Hammer In 2003: Just a line to let folks know who is coming to this years hammer in. Last year was a great success, thanks to all who came and to all who was so helpful..

This years line up is; Devon Thomas, Shane Taylor, Tom Ferry, Bob Kramer, Ed schempp, Gary House, John Davis, Mat Disken, and of course myself Lyle Brunckhorst.

We have three themes this year. Metallurgy and heat treating (Devon Thomas and Bob Kramer), Easy to make folders (Ed schempp's "KINETIC PROGRESSIVE FOLDER" and Mat Disken),
and of course Damascus (the rest of us).

If you're serious about folders, let me know and for an additional fee small fee, I'll get you set up to make a template here in the shop during the hammer in. (Limit 5 people)

It's located at my shop here in Country Village on June 21-22. The cost is $150.00 and I'll be glad to forward a flyer to any one who calls or E mails me. The knife list is set up to reject any attachments.

My shop is only so big, so an early response will get you in.

One more thing; after last years hammer in, a big bad ass puter bug ate my hard drive and I lost all of my addresses. So if you think of any one who may want this info, please feel free to forward. Thanks a bunch in advance.


*** Second Annual ***

Northwest Hammer In 2003

June 21-22

Metallurgy, Heat Treating, Damascus & Folders "the list says it all" Symposium

Country Village, Bothell, Washington

Shane Taylor ________Mosaic Damascus
Devin Thomas _______Metallurgy
Tom Ferry __________The edge wrap
Bob Kramer _________Heat treating 52100
Gary House _________Damascus; patterns revealed
John Davis __________Powder Damascus
Ed Schempp_________Kinetic progressive folder, a simplified folder construction
Mat Disken _________The shop wizard
Lyle Brunckhorst _____Damascus

This year 5 lucky guys will get to make a kinetic progressive folder template under Ed's tutelage.
If you're serious about folders and want to be one of the lucky guys, let me know.

Sponsored by

Bronk's Knifeworks & Northwest School of Knifemaking & freinds

Contact Lyle Brunckhorst @ 425 402-3484, ,

Mail registration and funds to below address
Bronk's Knifeworks
23706 7th Ave. SE, Suite B
Bothell, WA 98021

Cost; $150.00 per person
Includes Saturday lunch

M/C - Visa - Amex - check

Take exit 26 from I-405 and continue south towards Bothell for approximately one mile. Look for two red Victorian arches with Country Village signage on your right. Enter under either of them go two blocks up the hill and you're there. The shop is in the Northwest corner of the village. Camping space is available in the village.


Sierra Suite, $79.00 per night for one queen bed, a foldout cot and kitchenette. 1 800 474-3773
Comfort Inn, $79.00 per night for two queens or a king, 10% discount for AAA or AARP 425 402-0900

Restaurants @ Village

Papa's - Stella Mia's - Country Cafť
Lunch served at Papa's on Saturday for all you hammer heads

Close by Dining

Outback Steak House - Canyons - Jalisco's - Grazie's - Sparta's - Ming's - Mongolian BBQ
Plus all of the fast food joints

"Symposium" A gathering of thinkers and drinkers (Webster)
- Lyle Brunckhorst - Tuesday, 04/29/03 20:37:02 GMT

Paw Paw- great poem! nuff said.

Thomas Powers- I am about 60 miles south of you, contact me by email. I can give some employment "possiblity" info
Brian C - Tuesday, 04/29/03 23:59:03 GMT

- tim - Wednesday, 04/30/03 00:24:17 GMT

im looking for an anvil, im starting to make knives, i also would like a few points on a proper fire...
- tim - Wednesday, 04/30/03 00:26:49 GMT

tim: Are you in Australia? Might make it hard to find an anvil.
Paw Paw - Wednesday, 04/30/03 00:53:32 GMT

anvils in OZ: PawPaw, are you saying our southern neighbors never did any smithing? (grin)
I know chopper had a time, but he did find one.
Ralph - Wednesday, 04/30/03 19:44:06 GMT


No, that wasn't quite what I was saying.
Paw Paw - Wednesday, 04/30/03 21:15:14 GMT

Proper Fire:
This depends on your fuel, your forge and what you are doing. I usualy turn on the gas, push the igniter and I am done. . . If you are using charcoal it is just like lighting the barbeque. However, you need a blast of air and a fire bed 4 to 5 inches over the tuyeer. If using mineral coal all bets are off. There are so many kinds and forges vary so much that there is no way to tell.

The best way to learn fire maintenance is to just DO IT.

Anvils are where you find them. . . no matter where you are in the world.
- guru - Wednesday, 04/30/03 21:28:30 GMT

Thanks: Thanks to the people who sent in the info on hardening a ball pien. I used Mr. Turley's method and had good results with some practice. Thanks again.
- David Manen - Thursday, 05/01/03 03:47:09 GMT

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