Some tools to drool over.  Image (c) 1998 Jock Dempsey.  Click for enlargement. WELCOME to the anvilfire!
Virtual Hammer-In!

This page is open to ALL for the purpose of advancing blacksmithing.

February 2004 Archive Part I

WHY THREE FORUMS? Well, this is YOUR blacksmithing forum to use for whatever you wish within the rules stated above. It is different than the Slack-Tub Pub because the messages are permanently posted and archived.
This page is NOT a chat - it is a "message board"

Our chat, the (Slack-Tub Pub), is immediate but the record of it is temporary. DO NOT post permanent messages there. We refresh the "log" every 24 hours now and your message will be lost.

The Guru's Den is where I and several others try to answer ALL your blacksmithing and metalworking questions to us.

Please note that this forum uses an e-mail encryption system that prevents spam harvesters from collecting your e-mail address.

J. Dempsey  <webmaster> Rev. 7/98, 3/99, 5/2k, 6/2k, Friday, 04/06/01 16:43:25 GMT

Tony: Memory...GRIN!
vicopper - Sunday, 02/01/04 01:18:10 EST

Tony, beautiful post. I LIKE the way you think!
Ellen - Sunday, 02/01/04 12:45:06 EST

Postings recent:

Paw Paw, I try.

Vic, I try.

Ellen, why thank you!
- Tony - Sunday, 02/01/04 17:06:49 EST


Although I completely understand your frustration. Bob did come across as someone with fewer than normal people skills.
Paw Paw - Sunday, 02/01/04 17:14:35 EST

I would offer that Tony did a masterfull job of explaining.
ptree - Sunday, 02/01/04 17:39:33 EST

I just watched a 152# Hay Budden with a **possible** face repair go for $460 + shipping from Tx on ebay. You can buy a new anvil that size for less!

On an amusing note, I watched a younger man (early 20's) shoe a horse at a local stable this AM. He was using a cast iron 55# Chinese anvil....from you guess it...HF. To add to the merriment (on my part, anyway) he was cold shoeing, using about a 5# hammer. Yes, a couple of chips did fly! Also, the horse was a young (3 yr old) Arabian mare, skittish at the best of he was able to demonstrate his "wrestling" skills.....but, the horse was stronger. I left before he got the first shoe clinched. Makes one appreciate watching a skilled farrier at work.
Ellen - Sunday, 02/01/04 18:03:32 EST

People skills: Paw Paw, you know I can get testy. My main reason for replying was that Bob was wrong about some things and may mislead others. I dislike being involved in a thread and leaving it go at what Bob wrote.

ptree, thanks. It's frequently hard to know how far to go and how much detail. It's good when others chime in. Even with disagreement if they see fit. I learn. Just not with such disrespect.

Maybe Bob just had a bad day.

Jeez, even "I" can't believe I typed that!


Off to use the Superbowl as an excuse to socialize. I dislike the money that is now in the NFL.

And eat way too much good food.

It's a dirty job.

- Tony - Sunday, 02/01/04 18:11:44 EST


YOU can get testy? I'D never to that! (and if you believe that, have I got a deal for YOU!)

You're right, It's a dirty job, but somebody's got to do it.
Paw Paw - Sunday, 02/01/04 19:06:16 EST

jellyroll machine: I am now offering for sale my jellyroll machines. This device is designed to make jellyroll Damascus and works very well. With this piece of equipment you can roll up a billet in one heat as well as perform direction changes at will. This creates a loop effect in the billet and makes for some unique Damascus. Please check the machine out on my website! it’s a real labor savor.

Also I am considering an attachment for scroll work and would like your input!

Thanks Rick

Bulldogs Blades
- Rick - Monday, 02/02/04 09:09:03 EST

4 speed power hammer: Oh, by the way! My new 4 speed power hammer is now on the site with photos and video for viewing, I would like your input on that as well!

Bulldogs Blades
Rick - Monday, 02/02/04 09:11:54 EST

4 speed hammer: Rick either I don't get it, or that sounds like a very scary hammer. Is that all the speed control you have?
- Daryl - Monday, 02/02/04 09:31:31 EST

Bulldogs Blades:

Thou Shalt Not Use the HTML Tag.

Thou Shalt Not Have A Java Applet On Every Page.

Let's see, which other web development commandments did you break?

Thou Shalt Not Leave Broken Links On A Finished Page.

Your website looks pretty interesting, but it bogged even my fast machine with cable. I suggest you clean it up and strip it down a bit; please let me know if you choose to do so.
T. Gold - Monday, 02/02/04 11:14:48 EST

Web-site Loading: TG, You were kind. As a reviewer for a major search engine I would just plain refuse to list it until at least the images were properly resized. The slow loading is caused by images that are resized in HTML (a 1024x800 image being displayed at 256 x 200). This is the SECOND rule of HTML, to properly resize images. On my dial-up every page took 5 minutes or so. Most flash heavy pages don't even take that long. The FIRST rule of HTML is if you expect to market things from your page hire a professional to build your site.

I would never buy machinery based on rough diagrams. Interesting concepts but the diagrams instead of photos make it appear that the machines may have never been built. When you DO use photos learn how to process them (light, color, contrast, background, and SIZE) before posting them on the web.

Bull Dog, Note that anvilfire is a commercial page supported by advertising fees. We alow all types of buying and selling on this page but we suggest commecial entities purchase advertising. Our advertising rates are the most reasonable in the industry and always profit the advertisers.

People that abuse our open use policy are generaly chastised and run off by our fiercely supportive users. Blatent ads that compete with our advertisers are deleated in short order.

- guru - Monday, 02/02/04 12:23:11 EST

The older I get the more I dislike winter. . . My toes are freezing and my fingers half numb and I am working in my "heated" office! I planned my trip to Costa Rica too late. NOW should be the time to be there. . . It is mid-afternoon here and just above freezing in the shop. Last night it was 12 F. Yeah. . not cold by Canadian standards but too cold for these old bones. When I was a kid I would sleigh ride all day in weather like this. Time to go SOUTH.

Even my computer is complaining. It did not want to reboot this AM and reported multiple disk errors. . . That is from the aluminium disk shrinking from the cold! It will clear up when the office is about 10F warmer.

Anyway. . I'm all set to go to CR from the 14th to the 21st. Wish it could be longer. Hopefully winter will abate over that week. . .
- guru - Monday, 02/02/04 14:42:23 EST

input on the four-speed hammer: Good power hammers have near-infinite variable speed through the clutch mechanism. Why bother with a multi-speed drive?
Alan-L - Monday, 02/02/04 17:09:59 EST

4 speed hammer: Alan you are missing the point! The transmission has a REVERSE!!. Get a bad hit? No problemo. Just shift into reverse and unsmack the billet a few times.
adam - Monday, 02/02/04 18:28:33 EST

I gotta get me a reverse drive for my hammer, as I could use that bad lick removal feature lots.
After reading the bad page posts I have not bothered to look at the 4 speed hammer, but wonder just a little the thought behind such a thing. Besides the guy ain't contributing to the best blacksmith site on the web!
ptree - Monday, 02/02/04 19:01:11 EST


You're sick, you know that? (LOL) "unsmack the billet"!!!
Paw Paw - Monday, 02/02/04 20:52:17 EST

Bulldog what???: Ok, is it just me or is something wrong with this advertisement on his site:

"Twisting Die & Vise ass......$299.95"

Darned is I didn't go look at my vise... and it doesn't have one! :) Still, that's a lot to pay for a piece of vice a$$.

MikeM-OH - Monday, 02/02/04 20:58:23 EST

Bulldog Page:

Needs a lot of work, doesn't it?
Paw Paw - Monday, 02/02/04 21:30:47 EST

Guru, Cold Weather:
Of course y'all know that you are welcome to visit at any time... (BoG)

Should have been "HTML <img resize> Tag" on my most recent post. Gotta use the escape sequence. Jock, will an <img src=""> function on this page?

Breezy and sunny in Kaneohe, Hawaii.
T. Gold - Tuesday, 02/03/04 00:25:00 EST

hammer/jellyrollmachine/website and whatever I Missed: Look, I know my site is not perfect, and it’s a work in progress. The photos where resized using paint pro 8 and optimized for web use by that program. I am however aware of the slow load time and appreciate your input. If I could afford to hire a pro to build it I would have. But I cant so I am learning as I go. I am sorry for the problems.

As for the drawings of the jellyroll machine, I will be posting photos as well as video and as I explain on that page, it is still under construction. As for the cost of the twisting die and vise assembly, the clamping die requires a great deal of machine work and the vise cost a chunk. So that’s my price for that setup. If its to high I am sorry, but I know what I have to have to justify building it.

The power hammer does work very well, the speed can be controlled by feathering the pedal but the transmission is nice as well. I thank you for your opinions. But if the point of the design is lost then I see no reason trying to explain.

I came here seeking your opinions and I thank you for them. I thought my postings here fell within the guidelines of this forum and apologize for any violation there of. I thought to buy sell and trade here was ok. I wont do it again. Take care folks!

Bulldogs Blades
rick - Tuesday, 02/03/04 00:52:42 EST

PTREE: I am new to the web so I have much to learn. I have also considered contributing here with advertisements and a link to this site. But first I wanted to get a feel for the site by interacting with you fine folks.

I have built a number of homemade hammers over the last 20 years and there are many reasons I chose the 4 speed setup. The hammer makes 186 BPM easily and is very powerful. I have an extreme amount of control over the hammer and it performs better than any homemade hammer I have used. That would include my own designs and designs of many others. I have no doubt there are better designs out there but I like mine a great deal.

Thank you for your input.

rick - Tuesday, 02/03/04 01:05:07 EST

photo resizing: Rick, go into your paintpro program and open an image. Somewhere in the toolbar, probably under "edit" or "Tools" there ought to be a command that says something like "image size" or "resize/resample". You want the image size in pixels to be as small as you can get it for fast loading. Your images that are 1024 pixels x 800 pixels should be resized to 256 x 200 as Jock said above. I don't use paintpro, so I can't get more specific than that, but be suspicious of any auto-resize if the filesize doesn't get any smaller.
Alan-L - Tuesday, 02/03/04 09:09:29 EST

Rick: If I was too critical I'm sorry, maybe not enough coffee. I did look through every photo that I could get to work, and couldn't see any way to control speed other than the gearbox; even in the video it looked like one speed. You might want to put captions with the photos. If you can, really try to find to down size the pictures.
- Daryl - Tuesday, 02/03/04 09:57:21 EST

I still don't understand the need for the multi-speed, but as I have built only one powerhammer, that may be due to lack of experience. My hammer feathers and will adjust speed and force together.
I WAS smart mouthing about the reverse, but we do tend to do that here from time to time. vbg. We who support this site through CSI do tend to jump on comercial advertisers that post here, in competition with the other supporters that buy ads, or at least join CSI.
ptree - Tuesday, 02/03/04 17:25:59 EST

need a new anvil: hey i'm just geting started in blacksmithing and i was wondering if anyone would like to sell me an aprox. 100 lb anvil that they don't need anymore? if you can plese email me and if posible with pictures.
- Jonathan - Tuesday, 02/03/04 17:26:16 EST

ohh sorry my email is
Jonathan - Tuesday, 02/03/04 17:27:10 EST

Ok, maybe I can explain. Over the last 20 years I have built 16 power hammers and 7 treadle hammers. I have experimented with a number of designs. This particular design utilizes a 32# flywheel and transmission as well as a 5 hp 3450 rpm motor. I found that with this configuration the striking force is greatly improved. The gear reduction of the transmission and the inertia of the flywheel play a great part in this. And some times I want to hit hard but at a slower rate, the trans allows for this. There are a number of other benefits, but I wont go into them here.

As for supporting this site, I may but as I stated I wanted to get a feel for the site and people first. I also considered joining but I have reservations at this point.

And I read very carefully the rules of this site. And bottom line, my posts where within the rules. But I would delete those posts if I could rather than upset you folks. I have many things for sale, lots of equipment I have accumulated over my 22 year carrier as a blacksmith. Some things that have been in my family for seven generations. But I will list nothing else here rather than step on anyone’s toes again. Maybe its even best that this be my last post rather than continue this discussion. I don’t know, but I did not come here to disrupt or cause any problems.

But I put it out here and asked for you folks to give your input. Personally I would have asked many questions but I wouldn’t pounce on anyone. But you folks made your feelings clear and that’s good. I now know to keep my questions to myself and my mouth shut. My site sucks so I wont post that link to it again. So all in all I have learned a great deal.

Take care folks!

- rick - Tuesday, 02/03/04 18:47:22 EST

Rick's Hammer:

Rick, you are starting to pique my curiosity (rather than ire ;) How big are the ram and anvil on your current design, and what's the stroke like? I can't really tell from your pictures, does the ram go straight vertical or is it a parallel-arm linkage that keeps the ram vertical (perpendicular to the anvil face) but slides it from side to side a bit?

Yes, your post is definitely within the rules. The letter of the rules. The intent of that particular rule is to allow people with an anvil or a forge or something that they want to get rid of to get rid of it HERE where it will get put to use.

If you want some help with webdesign, I suggest you seek out the services of a computer geek local to you. Ask your relatives and friends, they may know one looking for work who knows HTML and will work for reasonable prices. It is worth your time; I know if anyone local to me asked me if I would work on a website for them, I would do it without hesitation. (I am a high school senior and itching for work :)
T. Gold - Wednesday, 02/04/04 00:21:23 EST

hammer: I will work the website out eventually. I have been working on a redesign for the past several weeks and hope to have it loaded soon. I would hire some help but I cant afford it. I am a cancer patient and I live off the pennies I can scratch out around here. There is absolutely no slack in my budget. that’s why I am selling blacksmithing tools that have been in my family for over 100 years. But thanks for the suggestion.

As for the rules of this forum, they clearly state that a commercial entity is allowed to post for sale here. It states that the owners would rather commercial entities buy advertisement but posting is allowed. I read the rules vary carefully. But the point is mute, I will not offer anything else for sale here. So I wont comment again on this subject. Consider me educated as to what is permissible here.

T.Gold, I would be happy to answer any questions you may have about my hammer design. But I wont do it here. Please feel free to email me or send me a phone number and I will call on my dime and answer any questions you have.
- Rick - Wednesday, 02/04/04 00:42:27 EST

The Grasshopper Treadle Hammer - Final Plans Now Available: I am pleased to announce that the final plans for the Grasshopper Treadle Hammer are now available.

The Grasshopper Treadle Hammer has a weightless, vertical-motion ram with a 34-inch stroke. The anvil is free of obstructions in all directions, including 22" above.

The return stroke is provided by a small " kickback"spring which only stretches at the end of the ram stroke (where it is least perceptible to the user). In other words, your leg doesn't have to work to stretch the springs.

The treadle is adjustable to allow for different tooling heights, and the point at which the kickback cuts in is adjusted automatically with the treadle adjustment. Hence, there is only one adjustment needed while hammering, and that is made quickly and easily from the front of the machine - so quickly, in fact, that it can be done during a heat.

The only other routine adjustment of the treadle hammer comes when changing top tools. A weight set is employed to compensate for the weight of the top tool. Weights of equal mass to the top tool are removed from the ram tube, keeping the ram in balance with the springs.

The plans consist of 100 engineering drawings and twenty pages of assembly and adjustment instructions, including stock list, parts lists and recommended tools and machines. The great detail of these drawings makes the construction and assembly of the machine fairly simple.

My website has not yet been updated to reflect recent design changes, but there is considerable background information at that site. Be aware that the appearance of the hammer is slightly simpler now. I will update this site ASAP.

In the USA ONLY, the price for the plans is $25, postpaid. Send your money order or check (US$ drawn on a US bank) to:
Bruce Freeman
222 Laurel Place
Neptune, NJ 07753

There are three problems selling out of the country: The higher cost of postage, customs problems, and payment. Customs I think I can handle. Postage we can figure out. But I have had no success coming up with a means of payment. (No, PayPal doesn't work. They want a direct
line to my bank account. Fat chance I'll agree to that!) Persons out of the USA who wish to purchase plans should contact me at the email address listed with this posting, and we'll discuss possibilities.

The Grasshopper Treadle Hammer Website
Bruce Freeman - Wednesday, 02/04/04 09:40:52 EST

Rick's Hammer: In light or Rick's most recent post, I just went back and re-read everything from the beginning. One thing really stands out in my mind after a couple of careful readings. We, the regular members of this forum, failed Rick.

Rick seems to have come here seeking affirmation, and we didn't do it. In the first two posts, on Monday, 02/02/04 09:09:03 EST, Rick said (twice)"I would like your input." Okay, we gave him our input. Daryl said he didn't get it, TG said the website needed some tuning up, Jock gave some guidelines for website development, Alan asked why the 4-speed, and Adam and Ptree did a short riff-in-jest on the benefits of reverse gear. There were a couple more posts regarding the web site needing work. And then Rick responded.

Rick gave us his apologia for the website problems but, regarding the questions on the hammer, he replied, "...if the point of the design is lost then I see no reason trying to explain." In his next post, 15 minutes later, he puts us on notice that we are being evaluated when he says, "I have also considered contributing here with advertisements and a link to this site. But first I wanted to get a feel for the site by interacting with you fine folks." To which, Alan offers guidance on photo resizing, Daryl apologizes for being critical, and Ptree offers a good explanation for the kidding and a suggestion for improving reception, while re-iterating his confusion of the need for a transmission. Rick's reply consists of listing his pedigree, letting us know that there is more to the hammer than meets the eye but he won't tell us, and repeating his admonition that we are on probationary status, i.e. "...I wont go into them here." "...considered joining but I have reservations at this point." Then he closes his post by scolding us for not responding the way he thinks we should have and withholding his site link. In spite of that, TG patiently responds with pertinent questions about the hammer, commentary on our forum policies and a very good suggestion for a web development resource. Actually, a remarkably reasoned and mature post from one of TG's age. (What we've come to expect from TG, actually.)

Rick's response to TG is to play on our sympathies, play Philadelphia lawyer about our policies, and play the guild trip about how we ran him off. Oh. And to withhold from us any of his future pearls of wisdom.

I've kind of layed in the weeds on this one until now, waiting to see how it played out. You all know that in the past I've been pretty quick with the stones when it comes to people showing up here to sell things, (like the dude with the little pamphlets), but I was feeling like I should be more forgiving and learn to be a kindler, gentler, more 90's kinda guy. I was lookin' up recipes for quiche and everything, honest I was! Well, it just ain't a gonna work for me, I guess. I'm a recidivist, I'll admit it. But I not gonna miss Rick, no sir.

Guess what? The internet is back up at work, so I have time to get involved again. I'll bet you guys will be sorry for that! (grin)

vicopper - Wednesday, 02/04/04 11:49:13 EST

Attitudes and posting: Rick: I can speak for no-one but myself, but I think the basic problem was not that you posted, but that your post was perceived, by me anyway, as a cheap way to get around advertising. We've had that problem here just a couple of weeks ago with a guy who was trying to push a booklet of worthless ideas or common/stolen knowledge. Not that that excuses us, but you seemed to come on a little brash in the same way.

I am glad you have kept posting, because it helps with our understanding. Yes, we can be a sarcastic bunch of cranks, but if we think you are being genuine we'll get over it.

Another possible thing is that this bunch tends towards the free spread of ideas, and looks poorly on folks who claim to have "secret" or proprietary methods of doing things.

Take Bruce Freeman's post above: Yes, he's advertising, but he has been working on this thing for years now and has shared a lot of info about it. I don't think that anyone has bought one yet, if for no other reason than that it looks like a hugely complicated way to make a simple hammer. Maybe if I tried one and found it had the effortless force-multiplied treadle as advertised I'd be more keen on it. BUT I/ most others don't give Bruce a hard time about it anymore, mostly because it doesn't seem to bother him one bit.

Keep on posting, and read the whole list up to your post, and hopefully you'll see we really aren't bad folks. Intolerant of stuff we see as pointless, perhaps, but not bad folks. Please note that doesn't mean I think your stuff is pointless: I am intrigued at the notion of a multispeed drive for a hammer, I just truly didn't see the need. I am starting to see why you wanted it, based on what you've told T.Gold above. If you take the discussion off-list nobody will get further intrigued. You did ask our opinion, after all!

Finally, don't take it too personally. It's easy to forget there's a human on the other end of the words on the screen, and most folks who post something here in what seems to be an attempt to sell something odd never check back. I am glad you came back, myself. Tell you what: don't judge us too harshly and we'll return the favor. The opposite is also true, of course.
Alan-L - Wednesday, 02/04/04 12:12:30 EST

Looks like me and Vicopper are thinking along similar lines, and both at work, no less! Public employees on lunch break, I suppose.
Alan-L - Wednesday, 02/04/04 12:15:42 EST

miffed: I agree. We treated Rick unfairly. He followed the rules and got an unduly sarcastic reception. If we are not going to tolerate people posting for commerce, then the rules ought to say so. Otherwise, we need to lighten up. It's fun to beat people up. Specially if it's like 5:1 and you're on home grounds. But we all know better. Sorry Rick.

OTH. It can also be enjoyable to seize the moral high ground and wrap oneself up in an offended huff. As vic points out, after the first misstep, people did offer help and constructive comments.

Rick we said we were sorry, (several times) now it's your turn to give US a break.

adam - Wednesday, 02/04/04 14:18:51 EST

Sorry? Not me!: I'm not sorry. I may well be wrong sometimes, but I just calls 'em like I sees 'em.

Gonna go eat some quiche now and become more sensitive.
vicopper - Wednesday, 02/04/04 14:42:37 EST

TG, No, HTML is filtered out on our forums. I have permission on the guru page but I screw up enough. I can't aford to be fixing a bunch of amature misstakes that crash the page. Forums that allow HTML also tend to be abused by people inserting banners and what not.
- guru - Wednesday, 02/04/04 15:09:06 EST

Adam - DH2: I'll try this again, the DH2 site is sometimes UP and Sometimes Down.I was just there and it was up . it is an Acrobat reader site. Good Luck.
I hope I got the link URL: /and the link Text right.this is my frist time trying all these fancy spots. But just in case, code/DH2--LeebE_555/620--ShoreC 45/55--C 0.6/1.0--Si 0.3/0.8--Mn0.5/1.1--Ni 0.4/0.8--Cr 0.5/1.0--Mo 0.2/0.5
DH2 Analysis
DanD skabvenger - Wednesday, 02/04/04 15:17:31 EST

It Worked, I got some thing WRIGHT for once.
DanD skabvenger - Wednesday, 02/04/04 15:20:22 EST

Commercial Adverts:
I judge the commercialism of an ad/link many ways. Sites with multiple products for sale and methods of e-commerce are not casual sales and should be expected to be recognized as a such. There is a big difference between a personal site and an e-commerce site.

I don't need to be reminded about my own posting policy. My point was that the loyal supporters of this site know a commercial site when they see one and will give those looking for free advertising a lot of grief.
- guru - Wednesday, 02/04/04 15:52:35 EST

postings: Well Jock, you know your own policies, the loyal supportors know the policies but what about someone who just walked in the door? I dont see how a newcomer, having read the WRITTEN rules could guess that he would be ambushed in this way. If the forum has unwritten rules, most communities do, then the right approach, IMO, is to cut newcomers some slack when they violate them and to *gently* nudge them in the right direction.

Most of us are in business to a small or large extent. When I do get my own website going, I too will have stuff for sale. It may be clear to you where you draw the line - it isnt to me. I dont see how Rick could be expected to know either.

IMO, either the rules need to be clearer or we need to be nicer to newcomers who tread in the wrong place.
adam - Wednesday, 02/04/04 16:16:29 EST

DH2: Dan, thanks! that's great!
adam - Wednesday, 02/04/04 16:21:11 EST

Gears on Power hammers:

I questioned the 4 speed transmission and did not say anything. However. . .

Among other things the ratio of auto and truck transmissions do not translate well to machine ratios. You often see truck transmissions on old machine tools but they never get shifted. The reason? Too big of jumps so there is only one speed that works right. I know this from both the practical and theoretical, I've operated these machines (have several) AND I have done ratio calculations trying to find a fit. They do not work.

On power hammers gears are a bad idea. Nazel did it on their primer movers at one time then switched to belts. Chambersburg did it poorly (mid gear train) with the result that the most common failure of chambersburgs is the very expensive gears.

When something reduces reliability without adding to the functionality of the machine then serious questions should be asked.

TG's question was a very legitimate one.

Many of the folks that frequent this forum have quite a bit of experiance in the field and are excellent at their craft. Many are hobbiests in blacksmithing but are also engineers and metallurgists, as well as doctors and lawyers. Dismissing their questions or comments does not go very far.

- guru - Wednesday, 02/04/04 16:22:22 EST

Like Vicopper, I ate a quiche for lunch... Darn, I'm sarcastic again.:)
Let me start over again. If I offended shame on me.I noted that I only had experience with the one power hammer that I built. I also have been working with machines, from airplanes,to missle systems, and industrial machines since about 1969. I also have some experience with gears in systems that have shock in the drive train. Aircraft engines of high power often have geared propeller drives. The uneven power input, from 12 to 28 cylinders have gear box designs that use multiple gear paths to transmit the load. These gearboxs would cost as much as many persons homes, and last for several hundred hours. Most mordern engines that are geared down to drive a prop use a belt drive or an EXPENSIVE damper to tame the shock. If a V-12 Rolls Royce that is very smooth compared to a power hammer uses a patented Farman drive You can understand my first reaction.
Like most here, I understand the rules for comercial posts. Perhaps it is because I did the homework of reading way back in the archives and noting the things that were unwritten, prior to my first post. I used this site for a month or so, saw the value and joined CSI.
ptree - Wednesday, 02/04/04 17:27:46 EST

Like Vicopper, I ate a quiche for lunch... Darn, I'm sarcastic again.:)
Let me start over again. If I offended shame on me.I noted that I only had experience with the one power hammer that I built. I also have been working with machines, from airplanes,to missle systems, and industrial machines since about 1969. I also have some experience with gears in systems that have shock in the drive train. Aircraft engines of high power often have geared propeller drives. The uneven power input, from 12 to 28 cylinders have gear box designs that use multiple gear paths to transmit the load. These gearboxs would cost as much as many persons homes, and last for several hundred hours. Most mordern engines that are geared down to drive a prop use a belt drive or an EXPENSIVE damper to tame the shock. If a V-12 Rolls Royce that is very smooth compared to a power hammer uses a patented Farman drive You can understand my first reaction.
Like most here, I understand the rules for comercial posts. Perhaps it is because I did the homework of reading way back in the archives and noting the things that were unwritten, prior to my first post. I used this site for a month or so, saw the value and joined CSI.
ptree - Wednesday, 02/04/04 17:28:05 EST

Sorry for the double post, brain malfunction
ptree - Wednesday, 02/04/04 17:28:51 EST


It seams to me that I pissed you people off and you decided from the start that I am an idiot. You have taken great pains to kick the crap out of me on every turn. I don’t care if you like my design or not. But I do mind when instead of asking me questions you strait out attack. And I am convinced that it wouldn’t matter how good or bad the hammer is at this point. You have already decided to dismiss the design and me as well. If you disagree with my design, fine I have no problem with that. But at least treat me with a moniker of human dignity and respect as I have treated you. If I do something wrong here, then tell me but don’t punch me in the nose for it. I read the rules, tried to follow them, then get a beating for it. If the rules are unwritten then don’t expect a new comer to know it.

As stated earlier, that should have been my last post. This one should be as well. I believe that nothing I have to say will be received in any other way than the treatment I have received thus far.

I am a 7th generation blacksmith with 22 years in the business. I am not famous or well known. But it may occur to you that I could have had something worth adding if I had been given anything resembling a fair chance. We may have even become friends, who knows.

So I take my leave now and I may or may not be back. I may or may not post again, that I will have to think over but at this point I doubt it. I wish you all the best in your endeavors and hold no ill will. But I have paid my dues to this art and believe I deserve at least a little human dignity and respect.
- Rick - Wednesday, 02/04/04 19:19:03 EST

Oh, BTW the hammer before this one lasted for seven years without a failure. I replaced a few minor worn parts and sold it when I built this hammer. It held together under very heavy use considering that I forge almost everyday beings I am a full time smith.
- Rick - Wednesday, 02/04/04 19:29:55 EST

All Right Folks:

Time for everybody to back down, take three deep breaths and start over.

Rick several folks have already apologized for jumping on your case. Did you read those messages? Did you bother to acknowledge those messages? I accept your word that you read the posting guidelines, but did you tell us in your first message that you had done so? Granted, some of the folks came down on you pretty hard, but you also jumped back pretty hard.

EVERYBODY (including me) needs to take a deep breath and remember that this is a two dimensional communication medium. None of us can see facial expressions or body language, and none of us can hear tone of voice. So it is easy to mis-understand and to be mis-understood. Try to remember that, it's very important.

Paw Paw - Wednesday, 02/04/04 20:20:07 EST

hi all: just would like to say goodness to all big or small..being as i have never built a powerhammer but am in the middle of scrounging,drafting,researching, and more researching, so i may someday have one of my own, my main piece to my design was a rear dif from a large lawn tractor i believe with a 4 speed trans the whole axle and diff are about 3'6"long and fairly beefy,being as i'm a begining smith my knowledge is small a few courses a couple videos and many books,and as much time as i can muster forging. am i stupid or just need more mechanical knowledge, or should i just build it and learn the whys and why nots? just finnished my first five hawks from railway spikes THANKYOU archives loved every minute room to forge at the shop for three if anyone is in southern Ontario!!!! once again thanks to all who contribute to this wonderful and inspiring page
- kainaan - Wednesday, 02/04/04 20:54:21 EST

PAWPAW: I received an email asking me to come back here and respond to your post. So I have this to say.

Thank you sir, I needed that. You are right, I should not have lashed back as I did and I apologize to the forum for that.

As for not stating that I read the rules, I guess I should have. But I didn’t think there was a reason to do so. I never considered that there would be different rules than what’s stated. And I apologize for that as well.

Take care
- Rick - Wednesday, 02/04/04 20:57:32 EST

I would offer the following; Build! Use what you have. I will suggest that the yard tractor diff may be kinda light if you plan much size in the ram. I would consider the bearing sizes, compare to a full size pickup rear end. The JYHs using a rear end use pickup size diff. If you have access to the stuff, a crank actuated spring type like the RUSTY is pretty easy to build, and I scaled mine up to 32#. Consider building at least in the 25#(12 kilo) ram size, as the 10# Rusty style hammer I tried was pretty small for any real work. I am going to build another hammer, probably in the 45# range, as I have access to the parts I need and have learned from the first one.
As my Dad taught me, "always make new and original mistakes"
Good luck
ptree - Wednesday, 02/04/04 21:06:43 EST

By the same token, you didn't deserve all the heat you caught.

It's not that the rules are different from what is written. But sometimes motives are mis-understood. The folks that are "contributors" (doesn't neccesarily mean money) are pretty fierce in their loyalty. Sometimes they get a bit carried away. Me included.
Paw Paw - Wednesday, 02/04/04 22:51:28 EST

PawPaw, thank you sir, you are a true gentleman as are many others here.

I am truly sorry for my part in this situation. I never intended to disrupt and then I jumped to defend myself. I should have stopped and cooled down before I responded. And I failed to do so. I should have posted the reasons why and answered the questions that were asked and I didn’t. I emailed the answers to Tgold privately instead. I felt that posting the information here was only giving everyone something else to attack, but that’s not justification for my actions. And I should have acknowledged the apologies that where given, again I failed.

Vicopper: as I stated, I do appreciate the input weather I agree or not, that is what I asked for. I like hearing different points of view, because that’s how we learn. But at that point I was on the defensive. Right or wrong I felt I was being attacked and my impulse was to strike back. Not the right answer but I did it just the same. Nothing I said was meant to impart sympathy and I am sorry that you perceived it so. I offered my background as a improper way of saying I am not a beginner and base my designs on experience. As for the pearls of wisdom as you put it. I simply meant that maybe, I may have had something of value to offer as well and I felt I was dismissed because I apparently angered you folks by posting. So I apologize to you and every member of this forum for my improper actions.

I had a friend come in here and review what has transpired. I did this because I wanted an impartial opinion of weather or not I was wrong for my position. He said and I quote

“ you where not treated fairly, but your responses have not been fair either. You need to go back and explain yourself once and for all. You owe the entire forum an apology as much if not more than they owe you one. “

I came back and reread everything since my first post. And as bad as I wanted not to, I had to agree with him. This is my effort at making that apology.

It seams to me that we tend to say things on the internet to people that we would never say in person because it would be a fist fight. Sometimes this fact causes things to really get out of hand. And being new to the net I have got to learn that fact and let thinks roll off more.

Now I hope this is the end of this issue, I hold no malice or ill will towards anyone here and apologize to all. If anyone has any questions please ask them, I will try to answer each and every one.
- Rick - Wednesday, 02/04/04 23:53:44 EST

following rules....: You know it really torques me when someone says that they read all teh rules and have followed them to the letter.... This implies to me that THEY know that they are intending to bend them or push them to the linits and do so intentionally... so to me this is bad. It is one thing to err but it is another to plan and study how to use the system so you can beat it. Yeah I know that we all do so to an exstent.. especially those of us who are or were in government service.... but it is especially hurtfull when it is a private group/organization/business, and especially one being run by someone I know and like.

Well I am not backing down and I am not appologizing as I think what was done was done in a mean spirited manner. But I am not the owner or operator of the site and I am only one small voice, who is often placing foot in mouth... but I still am not gonna change.....
Ralph - Thursday, 02/05/04 01:28:08 EST

Rick & Ralph,:

Rick, First, thank you for making the effort. Secondly, I know how confusing netequit can be at first. I've been doing this in one form or another for over 20 years. I was a member of a world wide, 660 computer network for 10 years before I came on the internet. That's why I made the comments about a two dimensional medium.

Ralph, I think you are wrong. I don't think Rick was trying to evade the rules, I think he was trying to obey them. There's a substantial difference between the two motivations.
Paw Paw - Thursday, 02/05/04 01:48:53 EST

Ralph, I apologized and mean it. I was not trying to skirt around the rules, I tried to follow them. I wanted input and that’s what I ask for. If I have something to show here it will be on my website as that is the only way I can show everyone what I have been working on. So I wont show anything else here so no one ends up at my site where I have things listed for sale. But I honestly don’t know what to go buy if not the stated rules.

I wanted the input of the forum on these items. I felt that maybe it would help with my developing these items both for sale and my personal use. I thought maybe you folks could help in how I should adapt the jellyroll machine into a scroll machine as well. I simply was looking for help, that’s all. I am accustom to helping and being helped by other blacksmiths and sought that same fellowship here.

Don’t apologize if you don’t feel you need to. I am not asking for an apology from you at all. I am simply saying my intentions were and still are honorable. I will be very careful not to list my site or refer to anything on it again. But if I have something to show or need input on, I don’t know another way to share it short of emailing every single person here a set of photo‘s. I am trying to extend a hand in friendship her, accept it or don’t. it is of coarse your choice.

You have made it clear that you dislike me and that’s your right. I have apologized because I felt I should. It would have been much easier just to never come back. But seldom in life is the easiest thing to do is the right thing to do. So I am back here trying to extend a hand in friendship to any who wants it.

I will say this, if you people don’t want me here, say so. If I am unwelcome then please say so and I will respect that. Just as I submitted a requested admittance to the pub. If I am not welcome, just say so.
Rick - Thursday, 02/05/04 02:54:28 EST


I speak mostly for myself, but also for a couple of other folks when I tell you that we do not want you to leave. Just let things ride for a while, participate in discussion, ask for help if you need it, either here or on the guru's page, and help the "youngsters" where you can.
Paw Paw - Thursday, 02/05/04 04:19:30 EST

Rick, I think listing your website is appropriate; as you say it is the only way to spread information short of emailing everyone here. From comments made, I think constructively, you may need to do so some work on it.

I don't think everyone here dislikes you. We are crusty and sarcastic, but when someone comes on sincerely and offers to share information, that puts a new light on it. Don't jump to conclusions. Adult behavior should include the ability to reevaluate one's positions, forget a rocky start, and move forward constructively.

My older brother made a home made lathe, using a manual 4 speed truck transmission for speed control. It was crude, but it worked and gave him satisfaction, so I would say your approach should not be condemned out of hand...we were kids at the time. It was a growth experience, and he got it to do some amazing work. I, for one, started out here with dumb questions and got some flak, but it has worked out to be a wonderful and valuable resource for me, and has brought me forward as a smith much faster than I could have done on my own, and now I have much support here.

So hang in there, and try to be not so sensitive, and I think you will strike paydirt.....we ALL have room to grow and benefit from the enormous amount of knowledge and support available here.

Jock approves the pub membership, and when he is busy, or out of town, as he will be for most of Feb, the approval is slow....often 30 days. Don't take it personal, it's just the nature of a one man operation.
Ellen - Thursday, 02/05/04 04:28:49 EST

PawPaw: All together, now! Let us recite the Beatitudes.
3dogs - Thursday, 02/05/04 04:33:53 EST

Keep it simple...:

Just... everybody, be cool. Rick, stay here, hang out. I am interested in your damascus machine, and I'd like to hear more about how your hammer works, as I'm interested in building some sort of power hammer myself. And it's always nice to have another set of eyes and fingers on here, especially one with as much experience as yours. This incident seems to be winding down... let's just be cool.

Sun-showering earlier in Kaneohe, Hawaii.
T. Gold - Thursday, 02/05/04 04:35:30 EST

RICK/THE PUB: After you've been here a while, you'll notice that every once in a while, a plaintive cry will come across the screen saying, "What happened to my Pub registration ?", followed by Jock's apology/explanation that he's up to his arse in alligators with no time to drain the swamp. "Patience, Grasshopper"
3dogs - Thursday, 02/05/04 04:42:56 EST

Rick: You expressed yourself well in the last couple posts and changed my opinion. We all live and hopefully we learn, too. Welcome aboard. Sometimes a rocky start opens the way for much better relations down the road, as all the guff is out of the way at the start.

This doesn't mean I won't hop on if I think you're off base in the future! On the contrary, those I respect are the ones I leap on the most frequently. Just as they ride me when I screw up. Is it personal? You bet it is. Just like my brother (and best friend) gives me untold harassment whenever I stumble over my own ego. Just a friendly reality check. (grin)

Forward we march.
vicopper - Thursday, 02/05/04 09:05:39 EST

Grasshopper / Rick's Machines / Hot Coals (a little short of actual flames): Grasshopper:

Either I'm going blind, or a posting I made to follow up one by Alan-L never made it here. Don't know what went wrong.

Alan-L said, "Take Bruce Freeman's post above: Yes, he's advertising, but he has been working on this thing for years now and has shared a lot of info about it. I don't think that anyone has bought one yet, if for no other reason than that it looks like a hugely complicated way to make a simple hammer. Maybe if I tried one and found it had the effortless force-multiplied treadle as advertised I'd be more keen on it. BUT I/ most others don't give Bruce a hard time about it anymore, mostly because it doesn't seem to bother him one bit."

To which I responded something to the effect:
Yes, technically I am advertizing, but believe me, there's no profit in selling Grasshopper plans. (I do it for the fame and glory and for all those beautiful female blacksmiths throwing themselves at my feet...)

My real concern is the false implication that the Grasshopper is difficult to build. Not so. One hundred engineering drawings and twenty pages of detailed instructions make it EASY to build. If you can weld, you can build the Grasshopper Treadle Hammer.

Rick's Machines...
Are a little beyond me, I'll admit, but I was very impressed by what he described (on theforge) and showed on his website. Yeah, I wasn't too taken by the technical quality of his website either, but having constructed one of my own I know how much effort they can be. It's easy to set up "a website." It's tough getting it to convey what you mean to convey.

And I REALLY sympathize with Rick on the issue of "hot coals" (near flames). When I first started discussing the IDEA of the Grasshopper, I had to take a lot of this shit too. Then when I proposed the weightless hammer, some yoyos out there (not necessarily on this site) started making fun of "hammering with a feather" or "hammering in outer space". These jerks didn't know the difference between massless and weightless, but that didn't shut them up.

Rick apparently has lots of experience with his own hammer designs. I think those of you who talk first and listen after, if at all, should give folks a little more space to explain what they're up to.

Just my two cents.

Bruce Freeman - Thursday, 02/05/04 09:13:41 EST

apologies to Bruce too!: Sorry Bruce, I should have emailed you before using you as an example. I've been silently following the saga of the grasshopper for about four years, and have nothing but respect for what you've done with it. But you must admit it LOOKS complicated to those of us who are used to a treadle hammer made of less than ten individual parts! I am glad you are getting fame, glory, and beautiful women for your trouble (big grin)! I think you have done well with your website, too.

I don't think I ever "weighed in" on the weightless hammer, but I found it an interesting idea.

Again, sorry to single you out, but I was trying to use you as a positive example. Lord knows I'm not one. Please accept this as an apology. I remember the crap you took over the weightless hammer idea, and I thought you handled it with great aplomb.

I too like to hear new ideas, as long as they don't start out "hey i want to make sword out of this piece of shiny metal i found and all i have is a book of matches but i know what to do..."
Alan-L - Thursday, 02/05/04 11:30:50 EST

apologies to Bruce too!: Sorry Bruce, I should have emailed you before using you as an example. I've been silently following the saga of the grasshopper for about four years, and have nothing but respect for what you've done with it. But you must admit it LOOKS complicated to those of us who are used to a treadle hammer made of less than ten individual parts! I am glad you are getting fame, glory, and beautiful women for your trouble (big grin)! I think you have done well with your website, too.

I don't think I ever "weighed in" on the weightless hammer, but I found it an interesting idea.

Again, sorry to single you out, but I was trying to use you as a positive example. Lord knows I'm not one. Please accept this as an apology. I remember the crap you took over the weightless hammer idea, and I thought you handled it with great aplomb.

I too like to hear new ideas, as long as they don't start out "hey i want to make sword out of this piece of shiny metal i found and all i have is a book of matches but i know what to do..."
Alan-L - Thursday, 02/05/04 11:30:53 EST

humble quiche: Rick: Glad you did decide to stick around. Welcome :)

PawPaw: Thanks for throwing a bucket of cold water on us!

Some of you guys might want to try this out. :)

Pie dough for one 9-inch crust
1-1/2 cups grated cheeses (use cheddar, Gruyere, Swiss, or mozzarella in any proportion)
1/2 cup ricotta, feta, cottage, or goat cheese
5 eggs
1 cup light cream (half & half)
1 teaspoon dried dill (or 1 Tablespoon fresh)
1 teaspoon dried parsley (or 1 Tablespoon fresh)
1 teaspoon dried minced onion
1 teaspoon dried herb of your choice
Heat oven to 400 degrees. Line quiche pan or pie pan with pie dough. Place grated cheeses in pie shell. In blender, measure cream; add eggs, soft cheese, and herbs. Mix on high speed for 2 minutes. Pour over grated cheese. Bake for 45 minutes or until a knife inserted in the center comes out clean. Cool for 5 minutes before serving.

adam - Thursday, 02/05/04 11:37:22 EST

PS: A wise man recently reminded us that there is no body language or tone of voice with internet posting so let me just clarify: PawPaw, "thanks" without irony. We needed to chill out.
adam - Thursday, 02/05/04 11:40:51 EST

Alan-L: Don't I wish...

Anyway, I didn't need or expect an apology from you. No offence was taken. Just want to set the record straight - or at least offer my opinion on it.
Bruce Freeman - Thursday, 02/05/04 12:51:43 EST

Swords ??Alan-L: Alan-L I can't seem to find any wooltz steel, (GRIN,GRIN)Will steel wool work just as good for making a Sword?
found a site you and others might like.
PS I hope no one starts asking Guru about (steel wool)he might band me for here.
ON-A Rock
DanD skabvenger - Thursday, 02/05/04 13:48:41 EST

Sorry Miss spelled (for=from}
DanD skabvenger - Thursday, 02/05/04 13:53:00 EST


I've seen that before, and loved it every time.
Paw Paw - Thursday, 02/05/04 14:32:08 EST

Smoothing the Waters:
First, let me say I have been more than a little harrased lately and that the cold weather and an onslaught of sword maker wannabes have been making me somewhat of a grouch.

My original post on advertising did not come out the way I intended. I probably should have written a letter. Just last month we had a blatent advertising listing from a commercial site and a bunch of folks jumped on the fellow's case. The site was 100% commercial and the subject material was of questionable value and I have since deleted the links.

My intention to Rick was to warn him that our regular users are very defensive about "our" turf and tend to jump on folks that appear to be advertising commercial sites. The only time I usualy force the issue is when direct competitors of our advertisers try to get free advertising.

I screwed up, I apologize.

The comments on slow site loading REALLY need to be taken to heart. 95% of all home web connections are still on cranky dialups (as is mine). This is especially troublesome to folks that work on the web full time and are often forced to visit these poorly built sites. AND it is even more irksome when there is no technical reason for the slow loading.

I stand by the comments on gears in power hammer drive trains.
- guru - Thursday, 02/05/04 15:14:40 EST

oppions on machines: Rick I know that pictures do help a lot in the explaination. we all have access to the users photo gallery here. Have you thought about posting a few well chosen pics there? That way maybe we could look at them and give a humble Oppinion without judgeing a website also? Keep in mind I am just trying to help.
On a different colored horse I truly respect thoes in this art who are more expirenced then my self and I hope you would not deprive me of your expirences. Afterall to not take advantage of your mistakes is, to me, like walking through a mine field and ignoring the "safe path" that has been flagged out.
Dragon-boy - Thursday, 02/05/04 15:35:50 EST

oppions on machines: Rick I know that pictures do help a lot in the explaination. we all have access to the users photo gallery here. Have you thought about posting a few well chosen pics there? That way maybe we could look at them and give a humble Oppinion without judgeing a website also? Keep in mind I am just trying to help.
On a different colored horse I truly respect thoes in this art who are more expirenced then my self and I hope you would not deprive me of your expirences. Afterall to not take advantage of your mistakes is, to me, like walking through a mine field and ignoring the "safe path" that has been flagged out.
Dragon-boy - Thursday, 02/05/04 15:36:18 EST

what the?: sorry for the double post comp screwed up
Dragon-boy - Thursday, 02/05/04 15:37:13 EST

just for Dan:

Steel wool works great for swords! Just roll it in borax, stack it in as tall a pile as you can keep in the forge and touch a match to it. It'll automatically weld into a billet of wootz, pre-etched! If you stack it just right, it'll even come out blade-shaped, no heat-treat required.

Oh, and every railroad keeps a bunch of good anvils for free, just take a sawzall and cut a chunk out of any track you find. They love it when you do that!*

*disclaimer to railroad cops: I take no responsibility for anyone who does this!
- Alan-L - Thursday, 02/05/04 17:11:21 EST

Steel Wooltz: If I make a sword out of steel wooltz and then quench it in cold water, will it shrink like my sweater did?
adam - Thursday, 02/05/04 17:21:46 EST

Hay folks, let me stark by saying than you. A lot of kind words have been said and I appreciate it.

I do take the comments on my website to heart as I have been aware of the slow download time. In fact I have reloaded several pages in the past 48 hours. I cleared my cookies and went to the site, every page loaded in less than 2 minutes on my 56 k dial up connection. I requested that friends go there and one fellow on cable said it loaded every page in 2 seconds. So things are getting better, its still not perfect but its improving.

As for the drive train on the power hammer. Many have expressed concern and I understand that. But I had a professor from UAB look at it as well. He took measurements and did the math. According to him the trans is under a lot less load and stress than it would be in a vehicle. But we can certainly disagree on this point.

If I am wrong or you disagree I want you to step up and tell me so. This is how we learn and that’s why I am here.

Tgold, the best advice I can give you right now is this. Think about all you want to do with your power hammer. And choose a hammer design accordingly.
Rick - Thursday, 02/05/04 18:28:06 EST

Rick: OK,
I will admit that I have been told that I gauge everything based on my life experiences ( wife and kids tell me this) ANd I say who else can I base my ideas etc on. I will also say that I can be on occasion incorrect. In this case I seem to have been. So I am sorry. Not for speaking my mind, but for perhaps not waiting a tad longer to do so.
As for wanting or not wanting you here... Well let me say, please stay.
If everyone here was a carbon copy of the others it would be rather boring....
Differences make us re-assess our lifes etc and grow.

Ralph - Thursday, 02/05/04 19:29:50 EST

Ralph: Hay, no apology necessary as it is a valid concern. I to had this concern so I had the professor have a look. I was of coarse pleased with his findings. But I still seek and want the opinions of others. So thanks for your input.

Rick - Thursday, 02/05/04 19:44:01 EST

Hey everybody!:

Can I go out of "peacemaker" mode and be my normal irascible self now? (big grin)

It's MUCH nicer in here tonight!
Paw Paw - Thursday, 02/05/04 19:49:24 EST

Steel Wooltz: Adam:

A cold water quench for your steel wooltz sword can only make it better. It'll shrink a little bit, but not so you'd notice! Unless it multiplies into a thousand little swords upon submersion, which could happen unless you do it when the moon is in its proper phase.

Ooh! Dan, I forgot to add that if you want a SUPER blade out of steel wooltz, add some aluminum and magnesium filings to the steel wool before you touch a match to it...I am not responsible for your eyebrows, or the floor of your garage afterwards though!*

* note to morons: do not do this. really. I'm serious. unless you like thrid-degree burns.
Alan-L - Thursday, 02/05/04 19:49:27 EST


Yes, I *KNOW* what steel wool, aluminum filings, and magnesium filings make! DON'T mention the proportions, PLEASE!
Paw Paw - Thursday, 02/05/04 19:56:26 EST

Peacemaker ....: Heck no PawPaw... we like watching you squirm... (VBEG)

PPW, you are not fun..... how else are the rest of the youngin's going to learn aobut how not to do stuff if they do not try their own brand of flaming stuff...... that particular mix looks good shot from a homemade LN cannon... at least I have hear it rumoured that it does....
Ralph - Thursday, 02/05/04 22:08:57 EST

Rick: Just a few other suggestions for your site: Parameters! What size a billet can your machine roll? How long? etc. Without them it's a pig in a poke.

And PROOF READ; I'm afraid I would be hesitant to even buy plans if the site has important terms spelled wrong---my life or health may depend on the care they took with their engineering, the plans should reflect this! (eg: does a tentioner have anything to do with tension?)

We don't hold to too high a standard in the hurly-burly of posting, shoot my spelling is so bad that even my typo's are often spelled wrong; but "commercial" speech should show the pride and care you have put into your *very* interesting tools!

Thomas whose speeds tend toward: slow, slower and check to see if he's still breathing
Thomas P - Thursday, 02/05/04 22:53:28 EST

Steel wooltz ?: Alan L. Whose leg are you trying to pull? I tried that steel wool damascus. Never could get a good flux. Now let me tell you how to really do it.

First get you a rusty 60# barn spike ( that's a big nail to all of you what aint never worked on a barn). Next get a top of the line cigarette lighter, we're talking Zippo here, them damn butane things makes my thumb hurt. Heat that spike up and start hammerin. My preferred hammer of choice is a twenty ounce Stanley with an axe handle. The best anvil is a big flat limestone rock also known as a Love Stone or..... better not go there. Heat and fold using the dust you grind off the rock with all the hammerin' for flux. Fold her about 92 and a half times and you will come up with the prettiest damascus broadsword that you have ever seen on the movie screen.

For my next project, I'm gonna make up some damascus armor from beer cans. Empty of course. Material prep is 99% of the fun.

Paw Paw: You may now slip back into your usual mode of being the crusty old knife whetter you are.
- Larry - Thursday, 02/05/04 22:57:31 EST

i took college chemistry in a big auditorium with 100 or so students, amphitheatre style seating. the 'nutty professor' was demoing Alans' mix. he had a 5 gallon glass beaker full of water underneath the experiment, for a safety. he lit it off, it burned thru the tin-can plate it was on, into the water beaker, turned the water into hydrogen and oxygen, and exploded the beaker all over all the campers in the first few rows. no one was seriously hurt, but the professor took a week off for some reason. i still flunked the class, no humor in him whatsoever. Don't mess with that stuff, please.
mike-hr - Thursday, 02/05/04 23:12:11 EST


Alan was joking, and so was I. He would never post the proportions, or the name of the mix. Yes, we both know both answers.

Usually, rather than using steel wool (which DOES work) Fe0 is used. (Did I remember Fe0, or is it FeO²?)
Paw Paw - Thursday, 02/05/04 23:16:30 EST

Thomas P: You are right, I need to have everything double checked as I am dyslexic on top of being a poor speller. I also have no teeth and am bald, but that’s another story. So your point is well taken and understood. And thank you for pointing out that error as I did not realize it was there. I copied and pasted the words in place on p-shop so the typo is repeated several times.

The jellyroll machine as it is currently configured is will handle a billet 3” wide and up to 5/8” thick. It can be as long as you can heat in your forge. The entire billet has to be hot before rolling. I personally like to throw a piece of nickel on top the billet and roll it up in it.

Hope this helps!
Rick - Thursday, 02/05/04 23:43:45 EST

Iron Oxides: PawPaw: Lots of choices for iron oxides - FeO, Fe2O3, Fe3O4, I suspect all of them would work in the reaction, but you might have to adjust the proportions of the other reactants. Rust is mostly FeO if memory serves correctly. - Looking to the weekend, some relief from quality systems and a little forging time.
- GavainH - Friday, 02/06/04 00:02:32 EST

Paw Paw: FeO is correct if you’re talking about ferrous oxide. It would be Fe2O3 if you’re referring to the ferric variety (with the 2 and 3 in subscript. I just can't get my 'puter to make that work!). For what it's worth, you have my permission to exit your role as peacemaker and return to being the crusty old sadist we know and love. (grin)

Welcome to the melee. I'm sorry it started as a trial by fire, but where would blacksmithing be without a little flame?;-) Personally, I find the jellyroll machine concept fascinating. While I'm not a great maker of cutlery (or anything else for that matter), an easier way to make a pattern like that could make some of the crap I turn out look downright civilized! I'd love to see photos of that baby in action, either on the anvilfire Yahoo group, or perhaps even as an iForge demo sometime. Anyway, I'm glad you weathered the storm, and glad to have you on board!

eander4 - Friday, 02/06/04 00:21:45 EST

Eric: One thing is for certain, once the billet is rolled the possibilities are endless. There are no limits of the new patterns one can develop. But a press is the best piece of equipment for taking the roll to a finished product. I like to accordion cut the billet, then unfold it and work it from there. Or sharp cut from four sides and re-weld creating a W pattern, especially with the nickel in the roll. I am developing new patterns all the time and the jellyroll machine is one of the most valued pieces of equipment I own.
Rick - Friday, 02/06/04 00:35:58 EST


Alt 0178 = ²

Alt 0179 = ³

Alt 0185 = ¹

Alt 171 = ½

Alt 172 = ¼

Alt 0176 = °

Alt 0177 = ±

If you go to:

You can find a chart of the ASCII codes that make all the other non-alphabeti symbols.
Paw Paw - Friday, 02/06/04 01:37:05 EST

Paw Paw: Thanks! While the site itself is apparently out of order right now, a google search says the address you gave is dead on. Now I can at least give the appearance of an web-savy feller!

eander4 - Friday, 02/06/04 02:04:58 EST

Orneriness: Actually, I think we're rather subdued, here at Anvilfire. Now, if you want real good world class insults and character assassination, drop in on the Junkyard. It's an art form over there. For a real good time, get ol' John Fee cranked up. He can put you on the floor.
3dogs - Friday, 02/06/04 02:15:39 EST

Japanese hammer: Are any of you folks familiar with the Japanese blacksmith hammers. I have received several request to start making them but my knowledge on this tool is very limited. I have ran several searches and found very little information.

Rick - Friday, 02/06/04 03:22:34 EST

spring/pedal vice: If anyone wants it, I have a simple drawing of the layout for a very good spring/pedal vice. It utilizes hood springs and I use one in my shop a great deal. I will happily email anyone who wants on the drawing. I find this rig invaluable for many of the jobs I do around the shop. Included but not limited to knife making. Just an offer, let me know!
Rick - Friday, 02/06/04 04:43:18 EST

vice warning: So far I have sent out a dozen of the vise drawings. I had a thought of something I need to tell all planning to build this vise. It is absolutely imperative that the connection point for the hood springs be strong. I have seen first hand what happens to a person when the mount breaks, plays the dickens with your shins. This happened to a young man who copied my vise.
Rick - Friday, 02/06/04 08:32:07 EST

Another Slick Knife Vise: While surching for other things I found this with a link on the details
Knife vise
Habu - Friday, 02/06/04 09:08:42 EST

Surching= Searching Read, Edit, Reread, edit, spell check then post.
Habu - Friday, 02/06/04 09:14:49 EST

Rick, Japanese hammer:: Make the handles short cuz them smiths work on the floor!

Ok, so my first reply to you is a crack! You appear to have weathered the storm just fine and are falling into the rhythm of things here. So for a serious answer to your question, I haven't used them myself but those that I know who have used them say that they are easy to use and work well. They have an offset handle hole and the striking end is much longer than the poll end, as opposed to western hammers that are more or less balanced from end to end. There, you now know everything I know about them, other than one of these days I am going to make one just to see what the hub bub is about.

Welcome to the board!
- Wayne Parris - Friday, 02/06/04 09:36:56 EST

crack and hammer: Mr. Wayne,

Hay I can take a joke! I do so every morning when I look it the mirror.

Thanks for the info, all is helpful. I did get a look at one but the picture quality was very poor.

Rick - Friday, 02/06/04 09:59:20 EST

Steel Wool, Spelling and Flaming: Fun with Steel Wool: When he was young, my brother-in-law discovered the wonders of firing steel wool out of his carbide cannon. I never got around to trying this with my old $10 muzzle loading Mexican shotgun or the falconet, but I wouldn’t try it in a drought area!

Hou to rede and spel gud: Workin’ for the Gummint (as I do) we go to great pains to make sure that we get the spelling and grammar right in any communication. We would like the people that we serve to at least THINK we know what we’re doing (and most of the time, we do). We’re even more judgmental internally. There’s nothing like receiving a memo from a high muckety-muck with ypographical terrors and grammatical misnakes to give you confidence in your management.

Flame Wars: At Anvilfire we indulge in reasoned debate. At the junkyard, folks will, upon occasion, indulge in a little trash talk. If you want discourse of a low-down nature, bordering upon slander, trot on over to the Armour Archive and have a look at their off topic bulletin board: . Any opinion expressed about politics, culture, the bad habits of Scadians, the virtues of certain armor, Scadian Samurai, or Combat Archery elicits a fire storm of binary opinions and personal defamation that would indicate a certain lack of mental flexibility and life-experience. Testosterone poisoning, estrogen intoxication, teenage angst… “I’m right, you’re wrong; go to he11 you commie leftist pig/neo-conserv dog…” On the whole the site has a lot of valuable information, and most of the members are reasonable folks who contribute their expertise willingly; but once they get rolling on some of their pet topics; whew!

So, my compliments to the Great Guru for his wisdom and restraint, and for all of the rest of the crew, who may react strongly at times, but then return quickly to reasoned discourse. Lord knows, it could be worse!

Home Page for the Armour Archive, a useful, if contentious, resource.
Bruce Blackistone - Friday, 02/06/04 10:13:32 EST

Hear, hear, Bro. Atli.: I, too have always maintained that those who engage in bureaucratic obfuscation should be able to spell both. (enter the appropriate grin symbols to ward off hostile reaction to the foregoing post.) }:<)
3dogs - Friday, 02/06/04 10:52:06 EST

I've been looking for the "cents" symbol but can't find it. If you spot it, please send the ASCII code to me. I keep the ones that I sent you under a small sheet of 1/8th inch plastic on my computer desk for access. Typed it up and printed it out, so I could read it.

BTW, some of the codes require the preceeding 0, some do not and you can't always tell from the list. Just try it with and without to see which one is right. The codes that I quoted to you are correct as is.
Paw Paw - Friday, 02/06/04 11:00:21 EST

Cents symbol: Once again, Google to the rescue. I typed in "cents symbol", and the first thing to come up was for .
3dogs - Friday, 02/06/04 12:16:49 EST

3 Dogs,:
The URL doesn't work for some reason. I used copy/paste to go to it. Got the "page not found" error message.
Paw Paw - Friday, 02/06/04 12:32:16 EST

Paw Paw,

Supposedly, the ASCII code for a cent sign is 162. When I try it, I get ó, so I guess it doesn't translate to HTML or something.
vicopper - Friday, 02/06/04 12:36:05 EST

Cent Symbol revealed: PawPaw,

Okay, for the cent symbol to work, you have to use 0162, i.e. ¢.

Don't say I never gave you anything for free. (grin)
vicopper - Friday, 02/06/04 12:38:17 EST

test: test
vicopper - Friday, 02/06/04 12:39:49 EST

Cent: Hey Paw Paw, the cent symbol must be about 124, right next to what must be the British pound sterling.
- John W - Friday, 02/06/04 12:48:42 EST

Cent: No. Never mind -- vicopper's answer is correct. 162.
- John W - Friday, 02/06/04 12:51:35 EST

My 2¢: note: You MUST enter it as [0162]
vicopper - Friday, 02/06/04 13:10:58 EST

Rick, sounds nice; but do you really mean as long a billet as my forge can heat? Not hard to build an "infinite length" forge that will heat the billet as it travels through.

I've been working on some billets for an armour making project, on hold like everything else till the shop gets moved 1600 miles, the long ones are the easy ones it's getting pattern welded sheet metal that is the "fun" part.

Atli, have you seen the pics from Real Viking I?

- Thomas Powers - Friday, 02/06/04 13:58:17 EST

Thomas's Move: Thomas, did you move to Socorro, NM? If so, that's only 100 miles from my summer cabin (near Pietown)....maybe when your shop is up I can swing by and learn from your setup.....NM is a nice place, not so crowded as most places....
Ellen - Friday, 02/06/04 14:34:18 EST

Rick, your website is nice. On my DSL connection pages load fast, your pictures are good, and I like your knives...a lot. thanks!
Ellen - Friday, 02/06/04 16:25:19 EST

Thomas P.: While its true one can build an 50’ forge I personally have never seen a smith a forge longer than 6 or so feet. I have rolled a 5 foot billet without a problem. The trick is that the longer the billet the faster you need to work to get it rolled up. What’s the longest forge you currently have? I did state it would handle a billet as long as your forge can handle in one heat. As stated, the entire billet has to be hot prior to heating. So if you have a giant forge and can handle that size billet, then that would be a problem. So I apologize if my wording was incorrect or confusing. Honestly, I don’t have a way to heat a billet over 6 foot long in one heat, so beyond that length I couldn’t say because many factors come into play.

Rick - Friday, 02/06/04 16:42:10 EST

ok, a typo= hot prior to rolling...........sorry to all, please forgive me...........put away the canes as the beating is not needed!

LOL.....Just funnin
Rick - Friday, 02/06/04 16:46:33 EST

infinite billets: Rick, I think Thomas was just yanking your chain, pointing out that there are industrial furnaces which can bring steel to a working temperature as fast as it can be processed, sort of like those conveyor pizza ovens, except bigger, faster and hotter. Hmm. . . an endless pizza? That could make a good shtick for a restaurant . . .
- John Lowther - Friday, 02/06/04 16:56:17 EST

LMC looking for craftsman: I am advising LMC, the US subsidiary of the European company which participated in the restoration and renovation of the Statute of Liberty. They have built upon this experience and are now in need of additional skilled craftsman for the fabrication and installation of highend architecture metalwork.
I need to help them locate candidates as full-time metalworkers starting at beginner and including apprentice, journeyman, journey-foreman, and project managers with an architectural background. If are interested send your career resume to
- LMC Advisor - Friday, 02/06/04 17:16:19 EST

John Lowther, Rick etc,
Every see a rotory bar forge for forging continous cast steel bar as it is produced? Three hammers at 120 degrees, and hammers the bar to reduce the voids that are common to a continous cast bar. They tend to get pipes in the center.
And by the way,While Thomas Powers might build an infinite length forge, where would you put the infinete length billet after it went thru the roll? In an infinete length shop? :)
By the way Rick, As a dyslexcic(sp?) I find your spelling every bit as good as mine if not better.
ptree - Friday, 02/06/04 17:25:29 EST

Rick, we don't use canes for beating, we use orange hot pieces of steel fresh from the forge, and at least one crusty "peacemaker" prefers a knife. It must be perpetually dull, he is always whetting it....VBG!
Ellen - Friday, 02/06/04 18:03:33 EST


ReRead this line of Thomas's message.

> Not hard to build an "infinite length" forge that will heat the billet as it travels through.

The forge is open on both ends, and the billet is heated as it "rides" through. They are used in rolling and slitting mills, and one could be manufactured from any Propane Forge that has end ports. I could do it with powered rollers and my NC Whisper Momma.
Paw Paw - Friday, 02/06/04 18:55:32 EST


The sound of a knife being sharpened has a chilling effect on some people.
Paw Paw - Friday, 02/06/04 18:57:27 EST

How many knives has that crusty "peacemaker" worn out on that whetstone do you think?
the latest started off as a cleaver and last time I seen it it would make a great filleting knife............
- JimG - Friday, 02/06/04 19:01:00 EST

Whetstones: Wasn't one of the 12 treasures of the ancient Briton's a whetstone?
JimG - Friday, 02/06/04 19:06:53 EST

Jim, heck I heard he started out with a two handed great sword with a 60" blade and now it is a penknife.....

News item from today's Associated Press, for those who think I am unduly harsh on our illegal immigrant population here in the southwest:
"Zapopan, Mexico: The Mexican crowd hooted the Star Spangled Banner. It booed U.S. goals [our national soccer team playing Canada]. It chanted "Osama! Osama! Osama!" as U.S. players left the field with a 2-0 victory."

Those folks don't like us much. Being here does NOT improve their attitude. Send 'em all home. To hell with the votes.
Ellen - Friday, 02/06/04 19:06:55 EST

> To hell with the votes.

I want to watch while you convince the political vote whores.
Paw Paw - Friday, 02/06/04 19:28:42 EST

Vote whores is the perfect description. 99.9% of 'em would do ANYTHING to get reelected. Now if the KNEW that their immigration policies would put them in the ranks of the unemployed, far from the palaces of power, THAT would be a different story. Never will happen, but one can dream.

The bright side of this is that all I have to do is think of stuff like this, and even the hardest piece of steel becomes butter under my hammer, my blood pressure drops, the world is good......and I get something forged which pleases they least my eye. Even HC RR spikes become pliable.
Ellen - Friday, 02/06/04 23:03:46 EST

Japanese hammer: Rick, My scanner is sucking canal water, but I have working drawings of hand hammers from Japan, and I have a smallish one in my shop. Send me a postal address?
- Frank Turley - Friday, 02/06/04 23:13:04 EST


Vote whores has been an accepted descriptive phrase in one email grou'p that I've been a member of for dam near 20 years. Was part of the network that I was in before I came to the internet, and we just moved the group to a Yahoo group several years ago.

Yep, even some tool steels get soft when I've been reading some of the garbage.
Paw Paw - Friday, 02/06/04 23:44:36 EST

Tax time: When NASA first started sending up astronauts, they quickly discovered that ball point pens would not work in zero gravity.
To combat this problem, NASA scientists spent a decade and $12 million developing a pen that writes in zero gravity, upside down, almost any surface and at temperatures ranging from below freezing to over 300 Degrees.
The Russians used a pencil.

Enjoy paying your taxes--they're due again soon
Habu - Saturday, 02/07/04 00:56:14 EST

ptree: Did you hear about the insomniac agnostic dyslexic, who sat up all night wondering if there really was a Dog ? (I should be ashamed of myself. Memo to self: Be ashamed.)
3dogs - Saturday, 02/07/04 01:31:41 EST

Space Pens: Sorry Habu, but that is an "Urban Legend." Mr. Fisher spent over a million dollars of his own (and investors?) money perfecting the ballpoint pen which became the space pen. As I understand it, NASA pays the same $40 a pop that you or I would.

All the Mercury and Gemini astronauts used pencils (which proved to be something of a safty hazard) before Fisher convinced NASA that their pens would not only work but be safe in space. The Russians subsequently adopted it as well.

BTW: These pens are really handy. How many times have you slapped a piece of paper against a wall and tried to write a note and had the pen quit after a couple words? With a Fisher you could write a dissertation. . .

Guru - I hope the URL isn't so long it causes problems.

Space pen at Urban Legends
John Lowther - Saturday, 02/07/04 01:46:00 EST

Space Pencils:
John, you done piqued my curiosity... how were the pencils a hazard? Shavings getting stuck in the air vents?
- T. Gold - Saturday, 02/07/04 02:23:31 EST

Oh I understood what the comment of an infinite billet was referring to. You can heat by drawing it threw. But my answers to him both stated that the entire billet has to be brought to heat to get the job done correctly. I have tried it in sections and the area between the roll and the forge always cools to muck while the steel in the forge is heating. This causes problems. I also thought that his response was in humor and tried to respond accordingly. No offense was intended nor taken.

Mr. Frank, if you will shoot me an email address I will send you my address. It would be greatly appreciated if you will mail me that info. Thank you sir!


Sheeeeesh, you guys are tough on all that there spelweren and such. Makes it hard on hicks like me.

On a serious note, dyslexics always seem to have trouble with spelling and grammar. So please forgive any misspellings or improper word usages.
Rick - Saturday, 02/07/04 03:02:17 EST

I'm glad you people are angry about the state of affairs in American politics. Using your anger in blacksmithing is good and I hope you find others ways to exprss yourself. No part of our government will run itself. It always requires the input of the citizens. Our country has been sharply divided from the very beginning -- it's always been a fight.
As for me, I don't think I've done anything for the USA except work, pay my taxes and keep my mouth shut. So the whores are still in business. They can say any crazy thing they want to and nobody seems to think much about it.
Oh yeah, my wife and I have made a few contributions --raise good kids.
John W
- John W - Saturday, 02/07/04 07:04:57 EST

e-mail: Rick, I'm supposedly a guru, so my e-mail is in the gurus header. My responses are supposed to be in "silver", but they seem to come out black...has something to do with old, stale cookies, or somesuch.
Frank Turley - Saturday, 02/07/04 08:37:40 EST

As I can't spell any of those three words, I havn't. Memo to self, learn to spell.
Second memo. learn to remember where the h**l I put the memos.
ptree - Saturday, 02/07/04 09:27:23 EST

As a dyslexic, I really do understand the spelling bit. I have trouble using spell check, as I can't tell which of the suggested choices are better!. Did you know that many of the great inventors and artists thru history have been dyslexic? Seems we tend to be left handed. That means that we use the right side of the brain more, which deals more in spactial thought processes. Helps with design, and relationships of systems.
If left handed people think with the right side of the brain, then only lefties are in their right mind!
ptree - Saturday, 02/07/04 09:32:52 EST

Space Pens:: A good story sould not be limited to the facts. grin (urban legends) is a government web site to discredit the truth.... It's not paranoid if they are out to get you. Sitting here in my aluminum foil head gear at least they can't hear my thoughts. Besides it's got to be true, I got it in an E-mail.
Here at the home,we can only get crayons, they work good, but you can't use them near the forge.
Rick, as you can see it don't take much to start an argument around here. As the say in Hawaii "Smile, It no Broke Y'er Face"
Habu - Saturday, 02/07/04 10:08:54 EST

Real Viking, Votes, Grammar and Graphite: Thomas- I checked out the link through Viking Age Vessels: Looked good (except for the red ice chest; I think every picture set of a medieval reenactment has a glaring anachronism so that future historians won't be fooled).

Prostitution and Politics: I'd be real suspicious of any "leader" who proclaims that he's doing this for love. And if we get rid of votes, they'll be doing it just for money- As Jefferson said, it's a very bad form of government, but the others are worse. And as Oliver Wendell Holmes said: taxes are the price we pay for civilization. (And I work for both the love of the job, and the money, so what's that make me? ;-)

Some of my daughter's college acquaintances proclaimed themselves anarchists. If we've learned anything in the last century, it's that anarchy provides and excuse, and paves the way, for greater repression to come.

Tribalism? Theocracy? Communism? Fascism? Feudalism? Monarchy? We've been there, done that, got the scars. At least we get to throw the rascals out from time-to-time, and we don't have to have them beheaded, just in case we need them later.

I don't care so much whom you vote for, just get out there and vote when the time comes.

Writing Implements in Space: Graphite is electrically conductive- bad in a space capsule, especially small particles floating into random microswitches at 0-G. The also had trouble with sandwich crumbs and any small particles.

Spelling and Grammar: As long as people are making an effort, and not just mumbling along, they have my gratitude. Communications need not be perfect, just understandable.

Vote Monarchist! (...and you'll never have to vote again; trust me, I love you.)
Visit your National Parks- (they're yours, after all!)
Bruce Blackistone - Saturday, 02/07/04 11:35:40 EST

Comet compressors: Not exactly a forge & iron question, but was wondering if anyone new the history behind those small home air compressors which had the "comet" name & decal. How long were they made, etc. (did sanborn always make them, or were they gobbled up like sanborn was later?). It seems to me they put the average american into the hobby business, as there seem to be zillions of them around still (I see them all the time at farm auctions). I picked one up recently that appears to be a mid-60's vintage. The bottom of the tank was rusted, so I made a patch from an old water well tank. I just couldn't let it die because that "comet" decal is too cool.
Mike S. - Saturday, 02/07/04 22:36:48 EST

DanD and Still Wool: When I read the responses I was laughing so hard I almost needed to take some "Nitro".. 8),,8),,8)
But for real.
Sorry to take two days to get back to this. It was a JOKE question. I am SORRY. After reading the responses I hope no one tries to do any of them. I remember a Non-Sanctioned 8 th grade Scientific experiment that burnt a hole thru a desk and on through the floor before it stopped burning. Our science teacher was a new Teacher that year. He wanted to know what we mixed up? When we told him what it was,he told us if we never brought any more of it to school again he would not turn us in. I think He would have been in as much trouble as we would have been. Myself and two friends were tring to make dry rocket fuel. Crusted rusty steel wool, charcoal,alum ,and some other stuff. It did not work the way we wanted it to. Enough Said. (*Grin*Grin*)
Saftey Note--Kids Do not try to do that. It is cheaper to buy the rocket engines at the store and use them with Adult Supervision.
The reason I misspell skabvenger is that scavenger was to hard to remember how to spell and was already taken when I frist got on the net.
Alan-- I'll ask the next RR repair crew that goes by if they have any short peices of track they don't need.They should be coming by soon,March or April.
DanD skabvenger - Saturday, 02/07/04 22:51:52 EST

ypographical terrors!: E'gads!

That should read: "...anarchy provides AN excuse..." and "THEY also had trouble with sandwich crumbs...".

Floggings for my errors to commence immediatly. Please stand in line and take a number.
Go viking!
Bruce Blackistone - Saturday, 02/07/04 23:50:28 EST

ATLI: We are preparing the cat o' ninewetnoodles, even as you speak !!
3dogs - Sunday, 02/08/04 01:10:46 EST

SKABVENGER: Shoot, Dan, I thought you wuz maybe Norwegian, or something like that. BOG
3dogs - Sunday, 02/08/04 01:57:20 EST

DanD: I was actually joking too! Especially about the track thing, railroad detectives are NOT kind and understanding people if you have done something to deserve their wrath.

Ever read "The Rocket Boys", later made into the movie "October Skies"?
Alan-L - Sunday, 02/08/04 09:21:20 EST

Tony and Paw Paw: First of all let me apologize for any ruffled feathers, I was approaching the problem from an electricians point of view. Tried not to offend with the way I wrote it, but you can always offend someone if the audience is big enough. Tony is a right honorable guy for explaining further without taking it personal. I WAS referring to the party analogy, and not to personal habits of people I've never met. Besides, I can't throw stones in the alcohol department anyway, sober 16 years now but I drank for 20. My concern was for safety and economy, a motor can be ruined in fractions of a second in an improper application and lives can be too. Example, 2 days ago my neighbor ran a cord out to his truck where his dogs sleep in the back in cold weather. dog knocks over heater,truck and dogs burn. He is uninjured but his transportation and his dogs are gone and his old lady will probably never let him forget it. Paw Paw, please accept my explicit apology to you personally, I meant no offense and bear no ill will. Iwuzwrong.
- Bob - Sunday, 02/08/04 11:06:05 EST

Blower Posting: I'll "stick to what I know" too. That crack was completely out of line. done apologizing now. Saw Pirates of the Caribbean finally, didn't know the romantic lead was a Smith, how often is that gonna happen?
- Bob - Sunday, 02/08/04 12:03:40 EST

Apology accepted with pleasure. I also read back through the posts and I think I jumped too quick, without knowing exactly who I was talking about. Mea Culpa!
Paw Paw - Sunday, 02/08/04 12:43:25 EST


You know, looking back over that last month or so, I think we're all coming down with a bit of cabin fever. That's every bit as true of me as it might be of anyone else. Seeing that, it behooves all of us to be a little more patient and careful to be polite.

Jeeze, I'll be glad to be able to get back out to the shop!!!
Paw Paw - Sunday, 02/08/04 13:09:27 EST

Alan-L: Yes,years later.At the time 71 or 72 we had read an article about the kids in that book. That got us interested in doing that.After our Burn-thru,our Teacher got an Ok for us to do a demo outside behind the football field with store bought rockets and engines. He did not trust our homemade bacthes any more. Some of them were close to gunpowder,and other hot stuff. My parents had just bought a feed and grocery store. It still had chemicals that you can no longer buy without a license of some sort,now-a-days.Dad was going to throw them out. So we used them. Luckly we used those chemicals without killing anyone. We did melt down two or three rockets,and blew up four of them.
Then we run out of chemicals,so we went on to other things.
As I said before I can always find the UNSAFE way to do anything without even trying.
I do know that you do not push a Mule.
You don't feed a horse corn will holding a yellow cat in the other hand.
When asking for free stuff from a work crew, ether have a pot of hot coffee/or a picther of ice tea,an lots of cups.
The worst they can say is "NO".
And you never ever say "Don't worry, I know what I'm doing!!"..
DanD skabvenger - Sunday, 02/08/04 16:59:42 EST

Bob:: Apology accepted, with pleasure. I hope you stay and contribute to our collective knowledge. I twisted my knee a while back. Sometimes it leaves me a bit "short". Sorry!
Ellen - Sunday, 02/08/04 17:01:39 EST

Japanese Hammers: Rick see our special page The catalog list has drawings. The fellow that made them no longer does.
- guru - Sunday, 02/08/04 17:09:07 EST

Dumb Politics:
The dumbest piece of self serving politics I have seen in recent years is the refusal to admit the Cuban musicians (that won) to the Grammys tonight. The only person this serves is "W" getting a handful of voted from Southern Florida.

Perhaps someone should tell the President that Cuba has no relevance to US security since the fall of the USSR. Stepping on the poor defensless (peacefull) island nation will only breed more terrorists. Of course it also forces people to want to leave, come to America and support "W"s dumb policies. . . Keep the musicians out! Next they will be banning the music!

The last president to abuse the office this badly for personal reasons was Nixon when he sent the IRS after his political enemies.

Our NATIONAL interests dictate that we should make peace with Cuba and open trade with them. If they have a healthy economy when Castro finaly dies (he's pretty old now) then there will be peaceful transition to a new government. What ever form it takes prosperity will make it better for the people. Perhaps they will even chose a democratic government.


Those that complain about the US then want to come here is probably the only thing that has saved us from constant terrorist attacks. Various organizations have been sending people here to infiltrate the US and then commit terrorist acts for decades. . . So why isn't there a constant rash of attacks? No, I don't believe our government has caught them. My theory is they get here, find out how nice it is compared to where they came from, and decide it would be dumb to mess up a good thing. . .
- guru - Sunday, 02/08/04 17:36:08 EST

Florida Votes: Since when does Dubya need to curry favors to get Florida votes? I figure he would just swipe them again. (grin)
vicopper - Sunday, 02/08/04 19:35:18 EST

hammer/bush: Well folks, thanks for the help and kind words, it is greatly appreciated. Thanks for the link to the hammers.

Politics: I must disagree, the last president to abuse the office for personal gain was (IMO) Bill Slick Willie Clinton. Not trying to pick a fight. But thank god Gore didn’t make it. At the same time I don’t agree with some of what Bush has done either.

Please don’t take offense to this statement, just one mans opinion. I apologize in advance for anyone this angers.

Rick - Sunday, 02/08/04 20:34:07 EST

I've never seen an argument about politics here on anvilfire. I've seen it get pretty close, but usually both sides realize that political debate is why this is a free country. We're all entitled to an opinion, and we all have the right to express it. If we dis-agree, that's what the ballot is for.

Besides, I agree with you about billy and the bitc*. And I don't like everything GW has done either.
Paw Paw - Sunday, 02/08/04 20:39:16 EST

On presidents,
Thank God that there is a two term limit. We survived Clinton, and we will survive Bush. And then we will survive the next one too. I hated Clinton, and have been somewhat disappointed in Bush.
But all of us can make these statements, and sleep well, knowing that a death squad won't be coming in the night.
ptree - Sunday, 02/08/04 21:12:46 EST


I've been known to wear a button during election years that says, "If you don't vote, don't bitch!"
Paw Paw - Sunday, 02/08/04 21:50:42 EST


I hear a lot of people talk about the "Privilege" of voting. I don't agree with them! Voting is a DUTY, not a privilege.

Enough, that's one of my hot buttons and I can get down right dam rabid on the subject.
Paw Paw - Sunday, 02/08/04 21:52:12 EST

Amen to voting as a duty, not a privilege.GWB has his faults, esp. his spending and pandering for votes, but I'm mighty glad we didn't have Slick Willie or Algore when 9-11 happened. Sure, we could do better....but we could do worse. A lot worse. The strength of this county is that it survives...sometimes in spite of its leaders.

I agree with trying to get prosperity Cuba, Mexico, and South America and elsewhere (here, too!). Best thing that could happen....for all of us...and them, too. Happy, prosperous people tend to be peaceful folk. I think it will work in Iraq, with a bit of luck, and time. Those folks sure got the short end of the stick with oil for palaces and despotism.

One of my favorite comments is from Winston Churchill..."the difference betweeen democracy and dictatorship is the knock on the door in the middle of the night." I thought about that when the feds took the little Cuban the middle of the night, with masks on their faces.... and sent him back to Cuba. I didn't much like Waco either. We could have used those tanks in Mogadishu, assuming we had to be there in the first place....

On a smithing note, looks like the History Channel Lewis and Clark extreme history episode repeats tonite. I have a tape in for Paw Paw....the wooden, clay lined forge and the forged axe section will hopefully be captured for distribution.
Ellen - Sunday, 02/08/04 23:13:55 EST


Bob, apology accepted. On we go.
- Tony - Sunday, 02/08/04 23:16:04 EST


Politics: Me may not be on the same note, but we're sure singing from the same page in the hymnal! (grin)

Tape: Many thanks, lady!
Paw Paw - Sunday, 02/08/04 23:29:51 EST

Dang! While I've been lollygagging around the forum I didn't realise that ya'll were having such a fun time over here.
Tapley - Sunday, 02/08/04 23:37:38 EST

Politics: Quote Of The Day:

You can fool too many of the people too much of the time.

-- James Thurber

- Steve in New York - Monday, 02/09/04 09:10:15 EST

INTEGRITY: An intriguing observation? We all have what we perceive to be the best interests of our country at heart. Sometimes I find that the mortal tendency to vote/advocate my own pocketbook or other personal interests blurs the line. Selecting from a menu of campaign promises is seldom wise. No politico, be he powerful or even only honest (the least thing we could want) can possibly deliver every promise in a system of checks and balances. The only things humans have which cannot be taken away are the things each one of us gives to others; our word, our best effort, our love, our loyalty, etc. If what we give is to have integrity it must be consistently applied and adhered to. All of these things we give are bound to one another. If I give my word and it has integrity I must apply my best effort, love demands loyalty. Integrity does not require success. However hard we may try, we may fail in some respects, heroes can die in battles lost. If we are to be justly judged, it must be on what we give, not what we have or accomplish.
The worst of the politicians give none of these things, they parse their word. If their word has NO INTEGRITY then how can promises for their best effort, loyalty and love be believed?
The fallen Soviet system believed in the integrity of Reagan's word.
Saddam experienced the integrity of G.H.W.Bush in Desert Storm, as well as Dubya's in Iraqi Freedom.
Qaddafi apparently believes in the Bush integrity, he VOLUNTEERED to give up his WMD program,Iran is submitting to UNSCOM inspections of it's weapons grade fissible materials capability.

Kerry returned from Nam to throw medals he now admits were not his on the Capitol steps of the country he swore to defend.
- Bob - Monday, 02/09/04 11:06:59 EST


Says it all!
Paw Paw - Monday, 02/09/04 12:00:46 EST

BOB: VERY well said
3dogs - Monday, 02/09/04 12:10:58 EST

Bob:: Bullseye!
Ellen - Monday, 02/09/04 12:26:18 EST

Vote stealin': Why do you suppose Gore brought the Daley Gang down from Chicago? Up 'til then, they were the best there was at election stealing. Looks like somebody beat 'em at their own game.
3dogs - Monday, 02/09/04 12:33:15 EST

Complain: Hey Paw Paw, you are right to say everybody should vote, but voting is not our only right or duty. We also have freedom of speech (to a large extent). I say bitch all you want. If you bitch well enough, if your words are true enough and your ideas good enough, somebody might even listen. It's easy to vote, we have a place and a time for it. It takes guts to bitch, you have to provide your own place and time.
- JohnW - Monday, 02/09/04 12:39:48 EST

Bitchin': Bitching Licenses are issued at the time of voting registration. Didn't vote ? Don't bitch.
3dogs - Monday, 02/09/04 12:54:17 EST

John W.:

We'll just have to agree to dis-agree on this one.

Complaining about the government is covered by the first Amendment. But (in my opinion) it is hypocritical in the extreme to complain without voting.
Paw Paw - Monday, 02/09/04 13:01:08 EST

3 Dogs,:

I'd say they are issued at the ballot box, not at registration, but we have the same idea, just a slightly different slant.
Paw Paw - Monday, 02/09/04 13:01:52 EST

Complain: Well let me ask this -- would you write your congressman?
- JohnW - Monday, 02/09/04 13:09:27 EST

John W.:

I have written to and called ALL of my congresscritters, including Senators, many times. And calling them and giving them an earful of my opinon has worked to change their attitude on several occasions.

People seem to forget, (if they ever knew, and this is not directed at you John) that governing a Republic (our form of government) is a PARTICIPATORY job. The representatives should NOT be expected to be mind readers, they MUST hear our opinions on a regular basis. Don't bitch about what they do, if you haven't voted AND told them what you want them to do.
Paw Paw - Monday, 02/09/04 13:53:54 EST

I have to agree with Paw Paw. I write to my representatives, Senators, state legislators, Governor, mayor, council members.... and when the opportunity occasionally presents itself, I do so in person. You can accomplish a lot that way. Silence is consent.
Ellen - Monday, 02/09/04 14:04:29 EST

Okay: I would agree silently, but I want to tell you so as well.
- JohnW - Monday, 02/09/04 14:12:37 EST

Knowing there are some good historians here... I've become curious if there's any archaeology on what the knives and swords of New Testament times really looked like. I haven't had much luck with web searches, probably because the Bible, or Word, itself, is sometimes spoken of as a sword, so there are lots and lots of hits for every search I've tried that have nothing at all to do with edged tools or weapons. There's the Roman gladius, of course, which seems to have come in more variants than I'd imagined. The greek words that are translated "sword" in English-language Bibles are "rhomphaia" which was evidently longer, more the size we'd think of as a sword, and "machaira", which is shorter, probably more like a knife. In contemporary Greek, machaira is a knife. Neither term is specific, that is they don't denote a specific type like "saber" or "bowie". I'm not expecting that the implements in common use were anything sophisticated or ornate. I saw knives carried by herders in East Africa a few years ago that were pieces of rebar beaten flat with a rough wooden handle driven on a tang. But I'm wondering if there's anything on blades from the middle east in the first century time frame? Length, sweep, point?

Steve A - Monday, 02/09/04 14:17:02 EST

complaints.....: You can complain all you want... But as long as you only complain to others who are not in a position to actually act on it you are just talking.....
It is like smithing. You can talk or you can heat and hit.....
Ralph - Monday, 02/09/04 14:37:43 EST

New Testament blades....: Steve I will be taking a leap of faith here,but I would imagine that other than the military knives in use in the Mid-East the knives used by everyone is going to be the same as it was then. Why change them as the use is the same the location is the same the method for making is the same..... But this is just my opinion
Ralph - Monday, 02/09/04 14:40:05 EST

Iraq or not: Well unless Uncle Sam changes my sons orders at teh last min ( he has not yet recieved his 'official' copy yet) Nathan Will not I repeat not be going to Iraq, but instead will be sent to some little flea-bitten hell-hole island............ called Hawaii..... WooHoo!!!!
Not that I am glad or anything.....(VBG)
Ralph - Monday, 02/09/04 14:44:50 EST

Ellen, my shop will be in Lemitar, bout 5 miles north of Socorro; bit of a drive to Pie Town, we went for a tour of the VLA last week---got to climb in one of the dishes---freaked the souvenir sales lady when we were talking about it until she realized we were employeees of NRAO.

Rick I was thinking of an induction furnace, probably ne shorter than my gas forge and heat a billet bout as fast as you could drag it through; BUT would make that meter spin fast enough for relatavistic effects!

Atli, I asked for a copy of the pic without the "red cooler" which turns out to be a mastermyr chest variation painted red...

Thomas P - Monday, 02/09/04 15:14:36 EST

Thomas: I'll check with you well in advance, but if I go to Socorro (in July or August most likely) to buy a load of hay, then 5 miles is trivial. Choices for buying hay are Springerville, $16/bale, Socorro, $7/bale. Doesn't take much of a mathemetician to figure out 100 miles is not that much further than 80 miles to drive to save that kind of money......the VLA is a fun place to visit, also New Mexico Tech (used to be School of Mines when my older brother graduated from there) has a very fine mineral musuem if that interests you....
Ellen - Monday, 02/09/04 16:09:31 EST

Speaking your Peice:
I used to write to congress (as many individuals as I could afford) on a regular basis. A surprising number responded. Most of the responses were unsatisfactory or sidesteped the issues. I learned more about our congresspeople than they learned about me. Most of the unsatisfactory responses were of the type that showed how distant these folks were from reality.

At the time I was a member of a group that kept up with all the new bills and sent information to its members.

Twice I complained about taxes and related paperwork. One had to do with W9's (requests for information) submitted by government contractors 3 years AFTER a sale that was too small to come under the requiresments. It was a lot of paperwork that cost more to process than the sales had been ($69 each). Two of the responses were "well everyone must pay taxes". . . Yes, but we should not have to pay double by spending 10 to 20% of our time to do the paperwork. . .

Another complaint that may have been heard and understood was when we were preparing to give money to Pol Phat (sp?) to consider a joint government in Cambodia. This was like signing a bail out treaty with Hitler. Both had killed millions of innocents.

I stopped writing congress when I had written one letter where I was so mad that it could have been percieved that I was crazy or a threat. . .

So I do my duty and vote. In Virginia I vote for Independents. This means that most of the people I have voted for have been fairly radical. Most are followers of Lindon Larushe. I cannot support either major party. They are too much alike and neither has people that know what it is like for most Americans. I would rather see a crazy like Ross Perot in office that was not afraid to do the RIGHT things. He would not last long but he MIGHT make a long term difference. Presidents have a tremondous amount of power if they choose to use it.
- guru - Monday, 02/09/04 16:41:35 EST


I'll chime in with Ralph here. Form follows function. Folks are constantly amazed when they look at the tools in the Mastermyre find to realize how much they look like tools made today. The same thing would be true of the knives of yesteryear.

What is a knife? An instrument made to cut things. What it is going to cut determines how it is shaped. A knife for skinning a cow might be made from a different material, but I'll bet the shape hasn't changed much in the last 5,000 years.
Paw Paw - Monday, 02/09/04 16:54:41 EST

Politics & Religion: Why is it we seem to broach the taboo topics here? Any way I do believe that I will Finally have my forge moved into the garage by this weekend. I was just waiting for the weather to brake long enough to clambor on top of the roof with a saw, and looks to be getting just about there.
- dragon-boy - Monday, 02/09/04 16:57:39 EST


Voting for the ones who have no chance of election is throwing away your vote. I vote usually for the challenger, as the lesser of two evils.

Ross Perot was a nut. He was the kind of guy who might very well have punched the button and started WWIII.
Paw Paw - Monday, 02/09/04 17:00:34 EST


Voting for the ones who have no chance of election is throwing away your vote. I vote usually for the challenger, as the lesser of two evils.

Ross Perot was a nut. He was the kind of guy who might very well have punched the button and started WWIII.
Paw Paw - Monday, 02/09/04 17:02:10 EST

Politics: Guru - I've got to agree with you: The difference between Republicrats and Demublicans is minimal. I generally vote for Libertarians when they have a candidate, independents or populists when there is one or write in a friend or myself when there is none.

However, a few years ago, the Libertarians ran a full slate of candidates, and the county clerk reported fewer votes for their candidates than there were people at the L. election party willing to swear they voted the straight L. ticket.

They considered legal action, 'till they discovered that a L. had won an election in a recount (in Nevada IIRC) and the secretary of state blatantly refused to certify the result.

Was it Boss Tweed who said, "I don't care who runs so long as I count the votes."?

John Lowther - Monday, 02/09/04 17:16:48 EST

voteing: my wife and I do tend to research as much on each canidate as possible then vote for the one that coinsides with our individual values. In other words we are not tied down to a party, just to whom we think will do it right.
dragon-boy - Monday, 02/09/04 17:21:50 EST

Dragon Boy,:

Because this is the "general forum" and there really are no "taboo" topics here. I try to keep the controversy level as low as possible, occasionally I try to pour oil on troubled water. Generally speaking, most of us are mature enough to be able to discuss topics usually considered "taboo" without descending into invective. Sometimes, in order to keep the discussion from becoming acrimonious, we have to agree to dis-agree.

But, we are mature enough to do that when necessary.
Paw Paw - Monday, 02/09/04 17:43:44 EST

Speech and Voting: My grandfather said if you threw your vote away or failed to exercise the right men die for, that you shouldn't be surprised if nobody gives a damn what you think... that got me to might also still have the right to free speech but you gave up the right to bitch about the outcome.
- Bob - Monday, 02/09/04 18:14:05 EST

Pawpaw, I agree Perot was a nut, and was probably dangerous. I also agree that voting for a hopeless canidate is a waste.
I tend to vote for the canidate that I consider best rather than by party. But to have an effect, you have to vote.
I read a sci-fi story about 35 years ago that revloved around voting. Seemed that only those who had served in the military got voting rights. I think something similar, but including any service to the republic to qualify would be great. Never happen.
ptree - Monday, 02/09/04 18:41:26 EST

Voting: ptree, would more than likely have been a Heinlen book. Many of his books had a simular theme.

As for throwing away a vote... only vote that was thrown away was one not cast..... ( generally speaking) I may not agree on your choices of canidates, but I sure as he@@ agree with you voting....
Ralph - Monday, 02/09/04 18:49:24 EST

Ptree: STARSHIP TROOPER by Robert Anson Heinlein

The military HAD to take anyone who applied. The recruits HAD to complete the agreed term of service honorably in order to receive the franchise. There were certain things that only "full" citizens could do. Political office, Law enforcement, certain teaching jobs, other things as well.

I'm not sure I agree, there are as many stupid veterans as there are in any other large group. As many crooks, wackos, etc. When you follow the statistics, veterans aren't much different from there fellow citizens. Except in ONE characteristic.

A willingness to place their own body between the home fires and the ravages of war.
Paw Paw - Monday, 02/09/04 19:06:35 EST

Robert Heinlein: I do believe he was a graduate of our Naval Academy and served at sea until he developed TB and was medically discharged (they didn't have a whole lot of medical treatment for TB in the 1930's) Enjoyed most of his books, some were a bit over my head.
Ellen - Monday, 02/09/04 19:52:49 EST

Pawpaw and others,
I thought it was a Heinlein story, but was not sure. My father had about every sci-fi book ever written up to the time he died. He slept about 4 hours a night all his life,worked in a factory in the day, flew air charters at night, and read on the layovers. Read two or three books a night.
And as I recall, the voters in his book were PAID and lavished with priveliges for their vote.
ptree - Monday, 02/09/04 20:01:18 EST

Not in STARSHIP TROOPERS, or in any other of his books that I remember well. Possibly in some of his later book in the NUMBER OF THE BEAST series, but I don't remember any there, either.

I've got about half of his books. I once had all of them, and almost all were first editions, but they were destroyed in a tornado and I've been working on replacing them ever since.
Paw Paw - Monday, 02/09/04 20:16:09 EST

Your memory is accurate, he did indeed graduate from the Naval Academy.

Who can name the important invention that Heinlein was responsible for?

He never made one, but he described it in one of his books, someone else built one, and paid royalties VOLUNTARILY until RAH died. May still be paying them to the family, for all I know.
Paw Paw - Monday, 02/09/04 20:19:25 EST

Heinlein: Military Service: United States Navy, Annapolis cadet 1925-1929, 2nd Lieutenant 1929-1934. Invalided out as permanently disabled due to tuberculosis.

Waldos, waterbed, GeoSyncronous satelites? Which one Jim?

Ralph - Monday, 02/09/04 21:21:42 EST


Water bed.
Paw Paw - Monday, 02/09/04 21:25:15 EST

Hacksaw History: When were hacksaws developed? Did they evolve fro thinned-down files?
- gerald - Monday, 02/09/04 21:27:14 EST

Effective politician speak: One DOES have to let the politicians know how one thinks and what one expects. I have also had some mixed success with individual letters. It's apalling how brazenly some politicians ignore and even put down the wants of their constituents.

Doesn't give us the out to not continue however.

One of the more effective ways I've heard of is for one individual to list all of the things they think are right and wrong, do's and dont's, and have a bunch of like minded people sign the document with readable names and addresses also. And send it in to ALL of the politicians who represent.

And respectfully DEMAND a response.

Much harder for the politicians to ignore even two people than one.

So...... In NO particular order....

Murder is bad. Abortion is murder.

Adoption is good.

Gun control is bad.

Education is good.

Reward for effort is good.

Excess profit is bad.

Allowing or encouraging jobs to go overseas to the long term detriment of our collective standard of living is bad.

Lazy people should get no handouts other than job training and education.

Helping people is good.

Long term welfare is bad.

Term limits are good.

Flat tax is good.

ALL campaign contibutions should be illegal.

Politicians lying should be illegal.

Two parent families of one man and one woman with parental involvement with kids are VERY good.

Local control is better than national control as a general rule.

Regulations that take away individual rights when the individual rights don't hurt reasonable people is VERY bad.

Beer, brats, butter and bread are good!

How big a list could we agree on? Because that is the trick. All who sign need to agree with all of the statements.

Start your own list. Get like minded people to sign it, and send it in.

Unless of course you disagree with many of the above. Then you should just go down to the local bar and complain about that SOB Tony and do not send your thoughts, desires and expectations to your politicians. Grin.

- Tony - Monday, 02/09/04 22:33:41 EST

Saws: Gerald,
OK first I do not know exactly... but first lets talk about tools and sofistication. Generally the more sofisticated a tool the longer the tool has been around. OK, now that the pre-lims are done. In the Mastermyr find ( a viking era tool find circa 1050 AD) there was a hacksaw that was pretty much the same as one you will find in any shop today.
Meaning that they have been around for well over a 1000 years.... And I suspect that they are NOT off-shoots of files
Ralph - Monday, 02/09/04 22:53:00 EST

I don't know when hacksaws were developed, but they are over a thousand years old. The Mastermyre Find has a picture of one that is very much like the one I ingerited from my grand father. So they haven't changed much in that long.
Paw Paw - Monday, 02/09/04 22:59:59 EST

Responses from politicians: A timely topic. I had recently written the Kerry camp to get a clarification on some of his positions that I found vague or absent at his web site. I received the response today, which said essentially nothing regarding my questions, but thanked me for supporting their candidate (I never said I did) and told me where I could send my campaign donations. Grrrh! I hate form letters! At least they could have said "We didn't even bother to look at your letter. Sorry!"

"That's all I have to say about that." - F. Gump
eander4 - Monday, 02/09/04 23:01:20 EST

Heinlein again: If any of you ever get out to the middle of daho and are near Arco ( home of the first nuclear powered light bulb... well at least the electricty came from a nuc plant) Stop by EBR I ( Experimental Breeder Reactor I) IN there there are lots of interesting stuff. But the Heinlein connection is there is a plaque giving credit to him for the water bed the concept of the geo-sync sats and for a Waldo.... What is a Waldo you say? It is a remotely operated arm used to handle nasty stuff..... Like radioactive crud.....
Ralph - Monday, 02/09/04 23:10:37 EST

Fire screen: I am doing my first fire screen. It has a compound curve. The client wants to screen out popping brands but doesn't want to block the fire with a cut out figure. I have not been able to find a heavy duty screen material to wrap the frame. Any hints would be nice. thanks
- emerys - Monday, 02/09/04 23:52:44 EST

Citizenship: Miscellaneous comments on voting, citizens, etc.
If I remember correctly, our republic started with the idea of citizens as stake holders - you had to be of age and own a minimum amount of property to vote. On the negative, you also had to be male, and I believe "white". The concept of having a personal stake in the outcome of elections to be a citizen is not a bad one. I think it makes people pay more attention to the actions taken by politicians. I think we've lost some of that attention in our current system, partially due to a much greater size, but also because the "stakes" aren't as real.
Note - I don't believe citizenship should be limited by national origin, sex or race. Often in the past when it was tied to age and property it was so limited.
- Gavainh - Monday, 02/09/04 23:54:29 EST

I do believe the water bed was described in "Stranger in a Strange Land" excellent read. Can't remember where the Waldo was described. He had a gift. I also enjoyed, esp. some of the short stories, Arthur C. Clarke like "Tales from the White Hart". His comment about advanced civilizations, capable of inter-galatic space flight, traveling many light years, to guessed it..."a sword fight" was somewhat apropos....this was written at least 25 years before "Star Wars."
Ellen - Tuesday, 02/10/04 00:16:58 EST

Tony: Good comments on politicians and values. Folks seem to forget this was just about the first country in the world where the ability to do practical work was valued above birthplace and titles......I hope it stays that way!
Ellen - Tuesday, 02/10/04 00:20:56 EST


Check out They sell all kinds of screen.
Paw Paw - Tuesday, 02/10/04 00:29:23 EST

The Waldo:
Was described in a short story by that name.
Paw Paw - Tuesday, 02/10/04 00:30:39 EST


Sorry, I forgot to make the link hot. Here it is again.
Paw Paw - Tuesday, 02/10/04 00:31:31 EST


Well, durnit!
Paw Paw - Tuesday, 02/10/04 00:32:16 EST

Waldoes: Ralph

Heinlein created a charactor called "Waldo" for one of his novellas. This fellow suffered from an obscure disease causing extreme muscle weakness. Waldo lived in an orbital habitat and made his living by creating and operating what are now called Remotely Operated Vehicles (ROV's) and tele-presense (Spl?) devices. I vaguely remember the story ending with Waldo discovering a new energy source (zero point Energy?)
- Don - Tuesday, 02/10/04 07:57:35 EST

Waldoes: R.A.H.'s story about Waldoes was called, IIRC, "Waldo and Company", hence the term waldo for a remote mechanical manipulator. It was included in a book titled "Magic, Inc.", I think. It's been a couple decades since I read it and the books are stored right now, so I can't confirm this.

Bob Heinlein was a remarkable man, probably the best read and most interesting person I've ever had the pleasure of meeting. There a few men who more virulently believed in women's rights and the inherent superiority of women than RAH. His wife Virginia should probably receive sainthood, and would if Bob had any say.

RAH also favored arming every citizen over the age of consent, and requiring them to carry at all times. I kind of like the idea myself, but it would result in a bloodbath until all the imbeciles were culled out.


I think you mistyped in your post about the hacksaw, or I disagree with you. You said, "...the more sofisticated a tool the longer the tool has been around. " I would say that the LESS sophisticated a tool is, the longer it has been around. The Mastermyr hacksaw demonstrates that very nicely. As do millions of hammers, knives, clubs, etc. Hard to improve on a simple device like those, eh?
vicopper - Tuesday, 02/10/04 08:39:22 EST

The RNC: A few weeks ago I recieved a mailer from the Republican National Convention. It was a questionnaire to help determine the Republican platform. As the final question it listed three options; one, I will donate X number of dollars to the RNC, two, I will donate $11 to cover the cost of processing this questionnaire, three, I want to elect liberals to office for the next ten years. After I had actually spent time thoughtfully filling this thing out I tore it up. That angered me enough to decide take every reasonable opportunitie to vote against both Republicans and Democrats, I don't care for either group that much anyways.

This is just my venting,
Chris J - Tuesday, 02/10/04 08:45:33 EST

Was reading the fire safety string on the Guru page. Reminded me of my daughter-she was about 3 or 4 and attending pre-school. Knowing that our chief had paid them a visit that day for Fire Safety Week, I asked her what Randy had told them that day. She said "nothing", I was fishing for her to tell me about "stop-drop,& roll". So I asked her "what do you do if your clothes catch on fire?", to which she promptly answered "cry" :). Number 1 son passed his written and practical tests to end his probationary period with the volunteer FD that he runs with in PA last week, taking a civil service test saturday for a career dept.
Brian C - Tuesday, 02/10/04 10:57:00 EST

To quote RAH (inaccurately):

If there is no one you want to vote for there is usually someone you want to vote against.


Lucky bar-steward, I’d have like to met him but I thought I was too late until I heard his obituary, then I was.

Paw Paw

Your (late) book collection is no surprise, your posts often remind me of his works, quirky but lots of common sense (a very rare material normally, but more common here)
- Nigel - Tuesday, 02/10/04 11:13:08 EST

“I always vote in political primaries. To not vote for the lesser of two evils may help assure that the greater of two evils wins!” (Uncle Atli's Very Thin Book of Wisdom)

I will observe (as I often have in the NPS) that just about every law, rule and regulation, in itself, makes perfectly good sense. It's just when we put them all together and try to make them all work out that things get complicated!
Bruce Blackistone (Atli) - Tuesday, 02/10/04 11:15:33 EST

Laws: Atli:

My father, who I have always admired for his reasonableness, was an elected official many years ago. On the subject of enacting laws, he said that every law proposed should be subjected to a series of "sieves" to see if it will be a good law.

The first sieve is, "Does anybody really WANT this law?" If nobody truly wants it, then why bother?

The second sieve is, "Does this law serve a purpose other than benefitting the person who proposed it?" That knocks out most initiated legislation before any time is wasted on it.

The third sieve is, "Is this law enforceable?" If it can't be enforced, then it shouldn't be passed. Period.

The final sieve, which Pop averred was the toughest one to clear was, "Would I want my name forever associated with this piece of legislation?" When anonymity is eliminated, responsibility is harder to avoid.

Samuel Johnson, I believe, said that no one who admires the Law or enjoys sausage should ever watch either one being made.


Meeting RAH was one of many great things that happened to me while attending more MarsCons than I really should have. The "lunatic fringe" has a LOT of fun! BTW, it may still not be too late to meet his wife Virginia, a truly incredible woman.

vicopper - Tuesday, 02/10/04 12:05:18 EST


He and Louis Lamour are my favorite male authors, Anne McAffree gets my vote for favorite female.

I've had folks tell me that my "descriptive" style reminds them a lot of Louis Lamour. I wish I was good enough to deserve that compliment.
Paw Paw - Tuesday, 02/10/04 12:24:16 EST

vicopper; I think you are mixing up sophistication and complexity. You can have a *very* sophisticated item that is dead simple and took thousands of tries to refine it to the mininum. Complexity is usually a sign of poor design.

IIRC the Shirebook on egyptian metal working tools may have included a hacksaw analog for non ferrous items.

I might claim the opposite derrivation---the file was derrived from the hacksaw as I have ganged saws together to
- Thomas Powers - Tuesday, 02/10/04 12:38:07 EST

nomination: TONY, if you decide to run on the beer,brats, butter and bread platform, I'll vote for you.Is SOB for super ol' boy?
- Ritch - Tuesday, 02/10/04 12:40:49 EST

adam: Tony - that list doesnt get my signature. Nothing personal.
adam - Tuesday, 02/10/04 13:06:24 EST

Politics, yuk!: Since this forum is discussing politics already, I'll throw in my two cents.

First: Let's get off this subject ASAP. This is not the place for it.

Second: I agree strongly with vicopper's third sieve. No law should be enacted that cannot be generally enforces. Most of the drivers on the roads today are criminals because of the speed laws. Think about it - the police have probable cause to stop you anytime, because mostly when you're on the road, you're speeding. If you're not speeding, then you're a grease spot on the road -- from tha passenger truck that just ran you over. "A woman, her truck and her cell phone - It's a TERRIFYING thing!" (Alternative version with "man" for "woman" also available.) IMNSHO, this is due to the national 55 MPH speed limit this country used to have. That speed limit was passed to save lives. If people had obeyed it, it would have saved lives. But it was unenforceable. People got used to breaking the law. Now that the 55 MPH speed limit has been revoked, people still break the law. This morning some yoyo tried to pass me on the right at 75 MPH on a divided highway marked at 55 MPH (local, not national speed limit). What FOR? "In a hurry to get to the graveyard," I think.

Third point: Tony's viewpoint that abortion is murder is based upon the belief that an embryo or a fetus is a human being. Such a belief falls in the realm of religious beliefs. Our constitution defends us from having the religious beliefs of those in power from being imposed upon us. Very important right. Some folks' opinions happens to differ. They have the right not to have Tony's (or anyone else's -- I do NOT mean to pick on Tony) beliefs imposed on them.

No one advocates abortion. I know. I was on the board of Right to Choose of NJ, for over a decade. Our mission was to keep abortion safe and legal. Let every child be a wanted child. Must be hell to be unwanted.

The real issue is not abortion, its women's health. If abortion is illegal, only rich women get abortions - elsewhere. Poor women go to butchers in the back alley and get murdered with coat hangers. That's the real choice. That's not speculation, it's history. Up until Roe vs. Wade.
- Bruce - Tuesday, 02/10/04 13:10:39 EST

All,: There is one particular line in Bruce's message that I heartily endorse.

> Let's get off this subject ASAP

Politics is a fascinating, absorbing, DIVISIVE subject. Let's drop the subject, shall we?
Paw Paw - Tuesday, 02/10/04 13:16:30 EST

Speaking of authors, I've just started on Patrick O'Brian's Aubrey-Materatin (sp?) series of sea stories set in the Napoleonic era. They are excellent reads, but it is perhaps best to start with the first one in the series and progress on through number 16 if you enjoy them.

Again, on authors, "Anvils in America" arrived yesterday (thanks Jock!) and it is a wonderful book. I highly recommend it!

I hang my head in shame, I do believe my post on the Mexican reaction to our Olympic hopeful soccer team the other day started the political discourse. Back to smithing!
Ellen - Tuesday, 02/10/04 13:33:21 EST


I don't know whether that is what started it or it was just "that" time of the year, but we can't discuss it in this two dimensional venue.
Paw Paw - Tuesday, 02/10/04 14:21:53 EST


I've said many times that there are no "off topic", verboten subjects in this forum. I mean that, but I do have to add that Politics and Religion come VERY close to the line.
Paw Paw - Tuesday, 02/10/04 14:25:20 EST

Party Pooper!: Ahhh, c'mon Paw Paw, just as it was gettin' int'restin'!

I will say, however, that some other BBs have rather more politically opinionated off-topic boards, and I don't see where it helps things much; and possibley has a negative effect. "Yep, ol' Qwerty sure knows alot about knives and hollow grinding, but when it comes to politics, the man's a total (vivid anotomical description inserted here)!"

I suspect that, like most good marriages, an informative bulleting board gives enough information about its members that you feel that you can know and trust them, but not so much as we despise each other.

"Dear; does this dress make me look fat?"

"Well Darling; what do you think of my Harley? Ain't she a beaut?
Bruce Blackistone (Atli) - Tuesday, 02/10/04 15:23:29 EST

PTP: Er, "...anatomical..."
Bruce Blackistone (Atli) - Tuesday, 02/10/04 15:25:06 EST

Bruce It is not region but a biological fact that a human fetus is human. If left to mature (as it should be) it will emerge as human, not canine, feline, reptilian, bird or insect. So to deny that a human fetus is human is to deny biology. This is just a fact, I’m sorry if you are uncomfortable with it. It is also a fact that life starts at conception. Dead cells do not divide only live ones. Until conception neither sperm or egg divide or reproduce themselves, only after they come together and create a new, third form, that of a fetus, does any cell division happen at all. As I have previously said, this is human life.

You said, “Our constitution defends us from having the religious beliefs of those in power from being imposed upon us.” This isn’t true either. The constitution prohibits the formation of a STATE CHURCH. The wording is very clear. Thus there will never be a “great and wonderful official church of the United States” such as there is in England. It wasn’t until the 1960s that the extremist liberal Warren court “found” new meaning in the federalist papers written by Benjamin Franklin. In a letter to a pastor Franklin reassured the pastor that there would always be freedom of region due to the “wall between church and state” For over 100 years this phrase was used to back up region and play down the power of the government, the court turned this on it’s head and people who are ignorant of history now use it to claim that region has no place in public life. Until the “ME” generation came along, with their view of let me do whatever I want to do, a strong religious conviction was a good thing in a public servant.

“Let every child be a wanted child” This is nothing more than leftist pap. After RvW the value of human life took a nosedive so that now the most common reason for an abortion is birth control. I have a hard time believing that more than fifty MILLION children were unwanted yet this is the harvest of RvW.

“The real issue is not abortion, its women's health. If abortion is illegal, only rich women get abortions - elsewhere. Poor women go to butchers in the back alley and get murdered with coat hangers. That's the real choice. That's not speculation, it's history. Up until Roe vs. Wade.”

Well here we go again with propaganda and hype. There certainly were bad situations before RvW but they weren’t the rule, on the contrary, they were the small exception. Women’s health isn’t the real reason behind the abortion industry; it is there for money plain and simple. With Billions of dollars on the line, and a good percentage of them from the public trough, the industry will do whatever; say whatever it takes to keep the dollars pouring in. Really, if they have no problem with taking human life, why would they have a problem lying?

I just could not let your statements pass without some reason being spoken.

Now, as Papaw said, “Politics is a fascinating, absorbing, DIVISIVE subject. Let's drop the subject, shall we?”
Wayne P - Tuesday, 02/10/04 15:34:47 EST

Genetic Fallacy: Jim: I apologize but I am not letting Wayne have the last lick.

An acorn is not an oak tree: a lump of iron ore is not a sword. Likewise it is not a settled "fact" that a cluster of cells in a mother's uterus is human simply because it will one day become so. Vehemently asserting that it is a fact will not make it so. Where to draw the line is a difficult question about which reasonable men may disagree.

But then reasonable men might prefer to listen carefully to both sides and to discuss matters without indulging in gratuitous insults against those who disagree.

If I could pick and choose among the Supreme Court rulings that I prefer, I could support almost any position I chose. The issue of separation of church and state has has come before the court many times since the days of the Warren court and in that time the makeup of the court has changed a great deal - nevertheless the modern interpretation of the "establishment clause" has stood. I might point out too, that under this regime, religion has flourished in the US. Among western democracies, Americans are the most believing and the most church going. I grew up in the UK which has a state religion. At school we were compelled to attend daily prayers and sing hymns. Despite this, or because of it, the brits are pretty much indifferent to religion. I came away from it having memorized lewd parodies to all the popular hymns. It's not good for religion itself to have the state involved. Criminy! we just spent several pages ranting about what lowlifes our politicians are. Do you really want these guys messing in your religious matters? Do you want a politician who claims to have God on his side?

But more importantly, I take exception to the tone of your post. The people who disagree with you deserve respect. They are not dupes of the abortion industry or the leftist propoganda machine. They are principled men and women who have looked at the same facts as you and come to a different conclusion. Most of all you owe it to yourself for if you do not thoroughly understand your opponent's argument, then you do not properly understand your own! Contemptuous dismissal will not pass for understanding.

NB: My email is not working - anyone wishing to fire a retaliatory shot can do so thru my wife's email ( with "for Adam" in the subject line
adam - Tuesday, 02/10/04 16:46:14 EST

Politics: I believe that there must be political/religous conversations if we are to remain a strong nation. If this isn't a good idea then what is the reason for the freedom of speech article? If it is a good idea then where would be a good place to have such a discussion? This forum? Not if it means a flame war! I believe there were a few instances where the founding fathers (and sons) had some flame wars of their own. But rational disagreement should not be shied away from because it might become a heated argument. It is our duty as responsible citizens to speak for what is right and temper our harshness humility.

In this forum, due to its diversity, I believe it is entirely appropriate and valuable,,, up to flaming. If kept reasonable, then it gives the quieter ones something to think about, and they vote as well. If not then the transgressor should be 'Kained' (sorry I just had to use that).

As far as non blacksmithing content mmm I'd like to hear Jocks input. Paw Paw would rather not we see. With all due respect though, Jock posts some very political stuff himself.
Mills - Tuesday, 02/10/04 17:05:34 EST

Calendar: The 2004 Gil Fahrenwald calendar came today. It is wonderful! Some great pictures, lots of history there....
Ellen - Tuesday, 02/10/04 17:06:23 EST

Adam, When does it become human? if parents are human then it seems to me that once the egg has quickened then it is human. AN acorn is no longer an acorn once it sprouts. Just as an ova is just an egg with out the sperm.. but once joined it is now a living thing.
Ralph - Tuesday, 02/10/04 17:15:44 EST

Politics: As an outsider I enjoy the political banter. It is a great way to get a feel for how the average American blacksmith feels. Just don't get mad at each other, you are a bunch of interesting people.
- Daryl - Tuesday, 02/10/04 17:29:59 EST


I agree that we need to discuss politics.

Paw Paw - Tuesday, 02/10/04 17:34:06 EST


The only problem is that people WILL get mad at each other.
Paw Paw - Tuesday, 02/10/04 17:42:17 EST

Sorry, It is my fault. I try to avoid politics and religion here but sometimes I can't help myself. Anvilfire is my business so I SHOULD by the old saw avoid the two verboten subjects.

I would prefer that discourse on the origins of life and woman's biological rights be discussed elsewhere. However, there are some political things that effect us as blacksmiths. Lack of a focused economic policy that keeps our steel mills and other manufacturers in business is one. Value added taxes and laws dictating the design of ornamental ironwork is another.

For several years NOMMA fought the "no climb" railing fight long and hard. Meanwhile ABANA who's members would be hurt much more than NOMMA's by this rule was silent on the issue (as far as I know). I would have liked to have taken an active stand on this issue but the "final" decision was made by the time I found out about the issue.

I would like to see anvilfire and CSI take a more active role in this type of thing. Even though the rule was defeated the issue WILL come back up again as will others that may or may not be good law. My problem is that currently I do not have time for doing much else than I do now. A strong economicaly viable CSI would help.

So, lets stick to the politics of steel.

- guru - Tuesday, 02/10/04 17:44:39 EST

the politics of steel: Amen to that one, Jock!
eander4 - Tuesday, 02/10/04 17:51:22 EST


Let me explain WHY I feel the way we do. We're a very diverse group of people. We have very different backgrounds, different levels of eduction, TOTALLY different life experiences. All those things have formed us into the individuals that we are. There is no way in the world that we would be able to agree on everything. Speaking for myself, I really don't want to see us get into a shouting match over anything. The camaraderie and experience gathered together on these green hills of earth is precious. "Better than fine gold." I don't want us to lose it.

End of rant. (grin)
Paw Paw - Tuesday, 02/10/04 17:58:37 EST

Sorry, that first "we do" was supposed to be "I do".
Paw Paw - Tuesday, 02/10/04 17:59:10 EST

Politics and Race:
A few years ago I brought up the question of why we don't see more black folks in blacksmithing. We had a very nice discussion about it and actually had some responses from people that know why.

First, I was glad to find that all of our group that responded felt as I did, that it was a curious situation with no obvious basis.

It turns out that many people trying to fight their way out of racial stereotypes and poverty see many manual jobs as going backwards. It is a modern American cultural bias with good reason. To be a blacksmith today you have to be a bit crazed and it is NOT a good social stepping stone. Add to that a cultural bias and you have a very few black folks going into blacksmithing in America.

It still bothers me to go to events that are 99.9% white but now I (we) know the reason for it. It is NOT because we as a group are racist. A discussion HERE brought that to light. I would still like to see better racial balance in our smithing organizations but I no longer see a reason to be proactive about the issue.

I would like to state, since we DO look a bit TOO white as a group, PLEASE do not be put off by what you see. I think most will agree that we are blacksmiths FIRST and that if you are of like mind we want to be your friend no matter what your race, gender, political or religious beliefs.
- guru - Tuesday, 02/10/04 18:11:26 EST

Not Politics: Not speaking of politics, maybe some body could tell me their favorite methods to cut rr rail and other heavy steel. Also, how to clean it up smooth.
- JohnW - Tuesday, 02/10/04 18:17:53 EST

Yes, race,gender,political, and religion. none of those matter, I always keep working unconcerned of my age.
- New Blacksmith - Tuesday, 02/10/04 18:41:38 EST

I hope to see any man, woman, or child wanting to learn and succeeding in blacksmithing. Guru is a briliant man, believe me.
- New Blacksmith - Tuesday, 02/10/04 18:45:37 EST

RR track: I cut mine with a torch. It's a bit tricky because the cross section changes. For a clean cut, grind off the rust along the cut line and preheat to just below red.
adam - Tuesday, 02/10/04 18:52:44 EST

Quoting Jock:

"I would like to state, since we DO look a bit TOO white as a group, PLEASE do not be put off by what you see. I think most will agree that we are blacksmiths FIRST and that if you are of like mind we want to be your friend no matter what your race, gender, political or religious beliefs."

I only know of two African Americans who are blacksmiths. One who has read and posted here a few times, and the master smith in Charleston, SC (whose name escapes me). I wish there were more.

RR Rail: I've cut it with a hacksaw, with my metal cutting band saw, and with a cutting torch. I like the torch the best, and clean up with a angle grinder.
Paw Paw - Tuesday, 02/10/04 19:05:11 EST

All the good smithing contraveraries and folks have to dig into *politics*???

coal vs propane
old vs new anvils
gloves vs no gloves vs 1 glove
Anvil shooting vs no Anvil Shooting
true path vs twisted path
Anvil height
wrought iron vs mild steel

lots of others out there...

I like a lot of RAH's views and I'll just say VOTE may not be anything you want to vote for but there will *always* be something for you to vote against. When in doubt vote against.

And to paraphrase Will Rogers "folks keep complaining that they are not getting all the govenment they are paying for---and I say *thank* *God*!"

- Thomas Powers - Tuesday, 02/10/04 19:10:35 EST

cutting rail: I thought you would cut it with a torch. I also wandered that question. Thank you.
- New Blacksmith - Tuesday, 02/10/04 19:27:53 EST

Anvil Shoots: Thomas my wife occasionally lurks on these blacksmithing sites. One day I she seemed a little upset by what she had read "Why would anyone shoot a poor innocent anvil"? I believe she must belong to PETA - People for the Ethical Treatment of Anvils :)
- Daryl - Tuesday, 02/10/04 19:54:13 EST

coal: I rather use coal than gasses, but dont judge that, thats just me. I make sure I follow all safety rules when dealing with coal.(or gasses)
- New Blacksmith - Tuesday, 02/10/04 20:14:16 EST

Ahh to eat an eagle egg: The prior conversation is something that just about a week or two ago I found a strange loop hole for.

I was thinking about all of the bird eggs that I have eaten and thought that it would be different to eat an eagle egg.(yes I am an American) Then I thought, hey if I eat an eagle egg that would be the same as killing and eating an eagle. That would not only be illegal(destroying a one day old eagle egg is the same as killing a ten year old bird from the laws standpoint), but it would bother me.

However it isn't illegal to destroy a human egg that is one day old and still alive!

There is something wrong if the law states that one can't destroy a bird egg and you can destroy a human egg.

That makes me think.

When I was born instantly I grabbed the doctors white coat and he had a rough time prying my hand loose. He told my mother and father,"That's one strong boy". The child not long before me(two years) had died very young. I am the seventh of eight.

Thats it, I will shut up now, really. . .

Caleb Ramsby
Caleb Ramsby - Tuesday, 02/10/04 20:36:45 EST

nothing in particular: Who defines what EXCESS profit is? Lazy people should be shown the door. Discredited philosophies kill.

Jumpin Jiminy! I've been posting to a bunch of white people! And they all look exactly the same!

Maybe you're not a racist if it's never occurred to you to wonder what color someone is when you're online.

Let's get really controversial..........
I was very impressed with the tone of the last few posts concerning political and ideological values. It makes things interesting if we can manage to think and not emote. Very stimulating. Repugnant speech is protected, vile ideas and philosophies cannot bear the scrutiny of public discourse. Are we to be intimidated into believing we dare not discuss these things because we LOOK like what race baiters (there, I said it) say is the oppressing class? I wonder if I can say I'm tired of tacitly apologizing for the color of my skin. I wonder if I can say I'm offended when I'm assumed stupid or unsophisticated because I work with my hands.

Sorry if this is creeping you out.

Note: I am NOT nor have I ever been a member or associate of any dumbass hate group.
Bob - Tuesday, 02/10/04 20:47:48 EST


let me explain why I am landing so hard on this.

In face to face conversation, we can see expression, we can hear tone of voice. So we can discuss controversial subject without getting into a brawl. (usually)

On the computer screen, we have NONE of those clues. You can't tell right now whether I'm smiling and joking, or seious as he!!. (one small clue, I'm NOT smiling.)

Your freedom of speech stops just before it gets to my goat, and my freedom of speech stops the same distance from your nose.

I am rapidly getting to the point where I don't give a good rat's butt WHO gets the last word, but I do want the polical/religious debate to come to a screechin halt!
Paw Paw - Tuesday, 02/10/04 21:03:17 EST

Is there any part of the above that needs further explanation??
Paw Paw - Tuesday, 02/10/04 21:07:11 EST

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