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Virtual Hammer-In!

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February 2003 Archive

Bad day at Bedrock, folks. May their souls and the souls of all the faithful departed, rest in peace.
Paw Paw - Saturday, 02/01/03 15:13:48 GMT

Reply to Caleb: First off, it is not my intent to offend anyone, just as Caleb said in his post on the Guru's Den.

I agree, Caleb, not everyone who passes from this world is venerated like an Astronaut killed in action; or like a movie star in a drug overdose; or a serial killer on death-row; or a terrorist in a suicide attack. Media plays a significant role in celebrity status -- be it positive, or negative.

However, our space program has returned many advancements to society. If I remember correctly, in the "Great Space Race" of the 1960's, for every dollar spent on the program three dollars of advancement were gained by private enterprise -- not a bad return in my book!

The Shuttle program may indeed be outdated, but it's all we've got insofar as a reusable launch vehicle. VentureStar and other Single Stage To Orbit projects have been shelved due to cost overruns, and poor performance. If YOU want to pay 20% more in federal taxes (plus all the rest of us American working stiff's) perhaps we can bring one of these projects to fruition. Until then, we have to work with what we have.

Lastly, Caleb: My dearly departed Father worked on all space projects up to the last Apollo, he did all the R&D on the Tri heart-valve, it replaced the "Star Valve" (i.e. ping Pong Ball in a cage). Plus, worked on the development of, what we know now as "Super Glue". And, the refining of Teflon, as well as removing asbestos from brake pads, yet making them work just as good.

Ten people showed up for his funeral (that includes the SIX in my family). He's still my hero, he didn't need a spot on the nightly news to get there.

God bless the souls of all the dearly departed, but especially those who live in the public eye -- there life, perhaps by choice, is ultimately more difficult.

One mans opinion. Please don't take offence, Caleb (or anyone else!)

BTW: My Dad hand forged some pretty cool knives in his day as well. Used fire clay, a habachi, and an old tank vacuum cleaner for a forge, a chunk of RR track for an anvil. There! Blacksmithing content...;-)

--Jim Bakos
Zero - Saturday, 02/01/03 21:45:19 GMT

Heroes: Jim,

Very well said, sir. The saddest among us is he who has no hero, for he is without vision.

Rich Waugh
vicopper - Saturday, 02/01/03 22:59:32 GMT

space program: hello;

it is the space shuttle heat shield tiles research which
allows those of us with gas forges to line them with kaowool.

i had worked on communications equipment for the shuttle
in the early 1980s. i had met several of the people who
were on the space shuttle challenger when it exploded over
the ocean shortly after lift-off.

the true heroes are the astronauts and nasa personel who
put the lives literally on the line each time they do their
job. the same can be said of the military personel currently
being deployed to the middle east.

the media would like us to think that only the people
making the multi million dollar movie or sports salaries
are the heroes. this is not the case.

terry l. ridder ><>
terry l. ridder - Sunday, 02/02/03 00:04:03 GMT


Well said.


In some ways, I share your digust with the way the media and a large part of the populations set's their "hero" sights.

But no man is gone as long as one person remembers. So those un-common "common" folks that you remember are not "gone" are they?

No offense taken, none intended. Polite discussion between friends permits dis-agreement, as long as respect is maintained.
Paw Paw - Sunday, 02/02/03 00:51:40 GMT

Paw Paw:
>But no man is gone as long as one person remembers.

See! This is why I respect your skills as a Wordsmith...


Polite conversation never hurt anyone, please continue...
Zero - Sunday, 02/02/03 02:35:36 GMT

no man is gone...: Paw Paw:
Magnificent words! I couldn’t agree more! I should add that it is equally important to let those “everyday heroes” in our lives know how much they are valued while they’re still with us. No one should ever pass on without knowing the legacy they’ve left behind.

Caleb: I agree with your assessment of the media. Too often they focus only on the “news-worthy” and forget the strength and value of the common man. It’s an occupational hazard I suppose. In terms of the astronauts striving to “advance technology”, I don’t really think that is the ultimate goal of those missions. Certainly it’s a component, but I think it is inherent in man to test his boundaries and ask “What if?” and “Why?”. In that vein, it’s the same ideal that drives each of us to become more than our parents, a dream that every parent shares for his child. Besides, technology isn’t all bad. Were it not for technology, I’d have never known my Grandpa. I’d have never learned his love for smithing (or his awesome biscuit recipe!). As it was technology gave him many more good years, and rather than rotting in a bed, he died doing what he loved, hammer in hand. Not a bad way to go.

Eric Anderson
eander4 - Sunday, 02/02/03 03:34:09 GMT


Not just me.

There is word poetry in every message about this subject. Caleb's points are well taken, and contain more than a little bit of truth.

Each response to Caleb's message shared a common thread. No one tried to change any minds, we all just responded with what we felt and feel.

Human to human, heart to heart contact. There lies immortality.
Paw Paw - Sunday, 02/02/03 03:54:13 GMT

Paw Paw:

It's actually quite cathartic: Acknowledge the errors, and celebrate the accomplishments...

A forum of like minds, methinks! ;-)
Zero - Sunday, 02/02/03 04:34:34 GMT

Safety // Zero: Zero,
Thank you you are a real gentleman. I think my problem lies with a bit of software that kills ads and pop-up ads.
I am going to get a local computer gonzo-savant to check out that theory, soon.
Perhaps the Guru can make that obscure Navigate file more prominent, and perhaps not at the very edge of the top right corner of the screen.
Maybe there is a way to make it look less like an ad. (if, indeed that is the problem).
Again, thanks for your kindness.
P.S. I Wish to extend my profound sympathy to the American and Israeli people for this morning's disaster. Most of the rest of the World shares my feelings. (with the exception of a country or two).
slag - Sunday, 02/02/03 05:20:38 GMT

No soul is ever gone. The procession of generations of men is relentless. There will come a time when no living being will have a memory of, the majority of, us.
But, there will STILL be a memory of all of us:
in God's eye.
  dan stotland - Sunday, 02/02/03 08:36:07 GMT

It is a regretable fact that to have a free and independant media, the media must turn a profit to survive. Sensationalism sells. To have low unemployment, businesses must make a profit. Sex sells. The countries in the Middle East decry our commercialism and worldliness, not without some justification. However, absent the oil under their feet, I would doubt that any of them would have full employment and free education and medical care. It is my humble opinion that any culture that glorifies revenge and violence, and uses religion to justify it, it an impediment to humanity.
  Quenchcrack - Sunday, 02/02/03 14:35:59 GMT

Friends: In the aftermath of 9-11, when American Flags were hard to find in the U.S., a Canadian company with whom I had done business sent me an American flag. With all of the "sensational" news about how many countries hate America, we often forget how many good friends we have. I hope we prove worthy of that friendship. Right now, a few notable countries are refusing to join us in getting rid of the "Butcher of Bagdad". Thomas Jefferson is quoted as saying:"Those who beat their swords into plowshares will plow the fields for those who do not."
Quenchcrack - Sunday, 02/02/03 14:44:45 GMT


I have said it before and I will say it again. Over and over, if need be.

America has no better friend than Canada. And damn few friends as good.

I've served (for a short period of time) with 2nd Bn, Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry. They're airborne troops (paratroopers for those who aren't familiar with the airborne term) and they are also Damm good troops. I'd go into combat with them with no hesitations. From all that I have seen and heard from other American troops, 2PPCLI is comparable to the rest of the Canadian Army.
Paw Paw - Sunday, 02/02/03 16:02:56 GMT

Wow, I was not aware that my words would incite such a prolific epitaph. I am realizing more and more why the blacksmith shop was always an unoficial place for the meeting of the minds.

Being a young inventor(23), I have always had mixed feelings about technology. I live to improve things and I believe that there is not one thing in this world that can not be improved! I have made it my life goal to use my God given abilites to help my fellow man through invention and inovation. Yet, since a child I have believed that as individuals our civilization has become stupider and more ignorant with each advancement in technology. Yet, as a whole we have increased our knowledge substantialy, although much of the technology of the ancients was greater than what we now hold dear and sacred. Sadly, some of the wisdom that we have lost has created problems that we try to solve with our often counter intuitive reasoning. Many of our illnesses and diseases are from a lack of nutruition, mainly calcium and also our unatural life styles. Instead of using our civilizations resources to look at all of the solutions that we have at our control, we pour our knowledge and power of creation into MAKING substances and creating processes that are inferier to that which nature has already provided us. Amoung the aware it is commonly known that the marine world will rival the rain forest in producing medicines and nutrients that we can utilize to prolong our short test on this Earth. We have not even began to discover a small percentage of the resources that our world has in store for us.

Although at a glance it looks as if our modern civilization is reaching the crux of knowledge and technology. We have yet to inspect a majority of the world in which we all exist and what we have discovered we still understand very little of. For instance the Columbia was taking photos of the dust in the air over various areas of the world. This was to try and discover how the dust affects our enviroment. They say it is to try and understand our "global warming", but most serious scientists know that from layers taken form the arctic ice that the Earth has cycles of warming and cooling that take place over many, many years and our current changes are VERY mild in comparisin. Yet again the media and our governments have taken a natural phenomenon and tried to make it into something that we are in control of. The polution of all of the cars in America for one year did not equal the polution of one of our massive fires last summer burning for ONE DAY and don't even ask about valcanoes, they are much better at poluting than all of our factories world wide! In thier investigation of the arctic ice they discovered a substance stuck between layers that eats the ozone layer 1000 times more effeciently than any other substance that was known at that time, and this was just a few years ago. Did I see this story on the front pages, NO I read a VERY small article hidden in a magazine. This is yet another process by which our society has their minds made up for them from birth. It is not often that we hear the truth and when we do it is not often believed or repeated.

It is with an arogance that we shall eventualy destroy our existance that our modern civilization has held it's "mastery" of power and conception.

Yet, although mabey ignorant and arogant there are still many great people out there and for this, I keep on living, as does our greatness.

Caleb Ramsby
Caleb Ramsby - Sunday, 02/02/03 19:25:37 GMT

The Hammer-in was getting kinda stagnant, you brought a welcome exchange of ideas. Thank you!

I wasn't much older than you when I went in to business for myself -- same reason, to solve all the worlds problems.

Never loose the wunderlust, it will serve you well throughout your life.

Give yourself the strength to change the things you can, the patience to accept the things you cannot. And, develop the wisdom to know the difference.

It's a simple prayer, but speaks volumes.

Zero - Sunday, 02/02/03 21:15:14 GMT

Slag, if you're referring to a problem with the NAVIGATE Anvilfire list going AWOL... That happened to me right after I upgraded Norton Firewall a couple weeks ago. There's an option somewhere in the bowels for blocking ads. Turned it off, the navigate window came back. After I rebooted.

Steve A - Sunday, 02/02/03 22:35:50 GMT

CALEB -- Two comments. (1) Discovered knowledge is peculiar. If you discover one new fact it leads to two new questions. Answer those and you will find that they lead to four new questions. On and on. This has been summarized by one writer as saying that the more I know, the less I find that I know. And(2) Don't believe everything you read in a magazine article.

JOHN L. - Monday, 02/03/03 02:49:25 GMT


I think the drive to Know, to Be, to Do is basic instinct built into us by the Creator under whatever name we call the Supreme Being/Beings.

It's what has drawn us to travel from the shelter and comfort of the cave to the vastness of space. It is what will continue to move us forward until we touch on other planets.

Without that drive, that curiosity, the urge to grow, we would be worms not men. (Or women, I use the word men in a generic sense whenever I talk about this type of subject).
Paw Paw - Monday, 02/03/03 03:36:34 GMT

I've read that in the "golden age of discovery", when men sailed in small wooden ships with primitive navigation instruments, something like one in every ten ships simply disappeared and was never heard from again. Yet the human spirit persevered and discovered the New World, circumnavigation of Africa, then the globe, and so forth. I think the Columbia astronauts have joined with the spirits and souls of countless intreped explorers and good will come from their sacrifice, sad though it be at present.
Ellen - Monday, 02/03/03 04:35:07 GMT


There is fairly good evidence to strongly indicate that Africa was circumnavigated long before European's accomplished the feat. Likewise, there is evidence that the "New World" was discovered on the East by Vikings and on the West by Chinese, again long before the Europeans managed to find them.

But that does nothing to destroy your point about man's exploration of his "universe". Exploration just extends the limits of the universe.

(Nor am I trying to destroy your point, I'm merely adding (I hope) a couple more "factoids" to the discussion.)
Paw Paw - Monday, 02/03/03 05:26:01 GMT

Menu Problems:
I have some frame width issues to sort out on this page. Will try to fix ASAP. The reason anti-ad software blocks non-ad parts of anvilfire is that things like the refresh on the Pub-Watch windows are seen as ads.

People are also now installing anti-popup ad software. Pop-up windows are a normal legitimate tool used on many websites. We use them for details on the iForge page and in our book reviews. These are not automatic, nor are they ads but most of the anti-banner, anti-ad software cannot tell normal use from the annoying pop-up ads. We also use one to remind members when their dues are due (for a very short time).

Pop-up ad windows have become a serious agrevation for most of us and are universaly hated by all. One thing to do is complain to the site owner. Another is to avoid the site in the future. One thing I am doing on our web-rings is refusing to admit sites with pop-up ad windows. Web hosting is cheap. If a site owner doesn't want pop-ups from their host it costs as little as $9/month to turn them off.

Once in a while I get a complaint about our banner system. The reloading banners screw up browser histories. But if folks want free information the bills have to be paid somehow. And yes, I have been negligent in setting up more banner-free pages for CSI-members. It was a much larger task than I thought and results in maintaining two seperate sets of code for each page.

One thing I am sure of is that if you run anti-banner software a LOT of anvilfire will not work and that includes the CSI pages without banners.
- guru - Monday, 02/03/03 17:37:36 GMT

Hmmmmm. . there is no drop down at all on the members version of this page. Need to look at some serious redesign.

I tweeked the normal page header so that the menu SHOULD not run off the page. However, even though I design and test for 640 wide pixel monitors it is difficult to be know what the exact results are. The problem is how text is rendered and the resulting width differences on what are becoming antique monitors. I design for them but no longer test for them as my old system with a 640x480 just barely runs. . and has Netscape ONLY. IE renders differently from Netscape.

Currently we support two 5 year old browsers (Netscape and IE 4.0). But these are now considered to be archaic by most standards (along with 640x480 monitors). Eventualy we ALL must move on.
- guru - Monday, 02/03/03 18:14:07 GMT

Special Days: The problem with having a "special day" is that just by making it it becomes *un*special.

Far better to mourn/celebrate on the day *you* choose as special to yourself. As an example at the SCA's Pennsic War there is a model viking boat set on fire and set adrift in the lake at dusk one day and people standing around the lake call out the names of those dear to them that have died during the past year---far better than some standardized date soon to be taken over by the greeting card industry, sales and moved to a Monday so we can have a three day weekend.

When the challenger exploded I told my wife I was willing to go up on any of the other shuttles the *next* launch window as they stood with no changes and asked if she would "allow" me to. She said yes, gotta love that woman!

I'm sad to see the loss of another crew, (my father worked for NASA when we had the Apollo fire and I *know* what the folks left go through!); but I'm still glad they got the chance and I doubt not that the remaining astronauts would volunteer to fly tomorrow if they could!

(BTW it's interesting to note that the *entire* Apollo program cost about as much as one year of the Viet Nam war) And yes the equipment *is* outdated--you don't go with something until you know *all* it's failure modes, as my boss said "If you are on the cutting edge, be prepared to bleed!)

Thomas, I'll never get the chance save in my dreams.
- Thomas Powers - Monday, 02/03/03 18:33:22 GMT


In that respect, I consider myself the most fortunate of men. I've realized every one of my childhood dreams except walking on the moon. And I haven't completely given up on that one.

That's a far better average than most folks accomplish, so I'm happy about it. If I should fall over this afternoon, out in the shop, I'll probably have a smile on my face when Sheri finds me.
Paw Paw - Monday, 02/03/03 19:42:44 GMT

Steve Thanks /// Norton Firewall
You are 100% correct, I installed Norton Firewall several months ago and that is roughly the time that the "Navigate" problem arose.
slag - Monday, 02/03/03 20:18:37 GMT


Ahem! "I" use the McAffee firewall, and "I" don't have any problems! (grin)
Paw Paw - Monday, 02/03/03 20:44:43 GMT

Quenchcrack: I recently read a book on social anthropology and it tried to answer the question of why the Neanderthals became extinct. It said that for about 50,000 years, no real changes took place in the hominid cultures of southern Africa. When the population reached a critical mass, and communication between different tribes began to take place, the technology exploded. That was the story of Homo Sapiens. The Neanderthals were very clannish and did not venture beyond their clan territory. They never got to the point where they interacted with other people. The internet is allowing people all over the world to interact and share ideas and technologies. Could you imagine what would happen if we managed to find intelligent life withing communicating distance of the earth? The heros of our space program are doing more to ensure our future than we give them credit for.
Quenchcrack - Tuesday, 02/04/03 01:04:00 GMT

Duh....: ...but first I gotta learn how to post on this forum................
Quenchcrack - Tuesday, 02/04/03 01:05:26 GMT


That assumes that there is intelligent life here on earth, doesn't it? Individually, there is but the lowest common denominator is pretty darn low.
Paw Paw - Tuesday, 02/04/03 03:22:22 GMT

VIC: VIC, I'm sending you an e-mail. Just to warn you. Grin.
- Tony - Tuesday, 02/04/03 03:29:27 GMT

Tony: Tony, I sent you a reply today. My internet "provider" has been really poor lately about the mail service, so if you didn't get it, let me know and I'll send it again through my other provider.
- vicopper - Wednesday, 02/05/03 00:02:53 GMT

VIC: I got it. Thank you! I will be sending a reply.
- Tony - Wednesday, 02/05/03 03:57:26 GMT

Which HVLP spray gun did you get from Harbor Freight;(model #), and what kind of paint are you shooting with it? I've been wondering about those guns for some time. What's the normal operating pressure? Best regards, 3dogs
  3dogs - Wednesday, 02/05/03 15:51:05 GMT

HVLP: The above message was to Zero. DUH!!
- 3dogs - Wednesday, 02/05/03 15:53:46 GMT

HVLP Spray gun:
3Dogs: I got the Central Pneumatic 20 oz gun (item # 43430). Used it to shoot Dupont urethane (two part). The mix on the urethane was about the constancy of a bad cup of coffee (reallllly thin). The HVLP gun handled it great.

Pressure is 5 to 10 psi (the gun comes with a gage and regulator). I really like the clean-up, it's a breeze with the top mounted opaque plastic cup.

The gun has real nice fit and finish. Don't know how they can build and ship from Taiwan for fifty bucks??
- Zero - Wednesday, 02/05/03 16:12:15 GMT

More HVLP:
I forgot to mention that the overspray is almost nonexistent due to the low nozzle pressure, making clean-up on the "other" side of the gun a breeze as well...

I'd give it 4-1/2 out of five stars (the 1/2 being for the lousy standard Asian instructions).
Zero - Wednesday, 02/05/03 16:27:01 GMT

Special Days: Thomas,
Well said.
I to would go in a heartbeat if I got the call. I would only pause long enough to hug and kiss my wife. I worked out at KSC from '90-93. About a year after I started working out there they were just installing the first desktop pc's in the LCC ( Launch Control Complex), the place where the launch is controlled and monitored until control is switched to Houston's LCC ( or would it be an OCC? since the launch is over) But equipment issues aside, it is truely amazing that we can get to space. So many 10 's of thousands of items events required to be done and done well just to launch let alone prepare for launch. Very cool in my book.

Ralph - Wednesday, 02/05/03 16:31:41 GMT

Me too! We could probably launch a whole fleet just with all the folks like here who'd be ready to go in a heartbeat. I said the same thing after Challenger, said the same thing Saturday. Say the same thing after every aviation incident: you'd have no trouble getting me up there. Tremendous admiration for the men and women who fly these things.

But still no stomach for following all the news stories about Columbia. I guess it's saturation. The volume of stories is so far beyond the volume of new news that I find I can keep up with everything just fine with morning radio news and a glance through the paper.


Steve A - Wednesday, 02/05/03 18:41:41 GMT

I'm like Ralph, I'd stop to kiss Sheri goodby on the way out the door. She'd say, "Be careful, and I love you." That's why we've been together so long.
Paw Paw - Thursday, 02/06/03 04:59:50 GMT

PPW: Paw Paw, ifn we were to talk nicely to Sheri; do you think she would encourage you to keep the chapters coming???? What might be an effective bribe for her endevors? (we could pass the virtual hat)

- Thomas Powers - Thursday, 02/06/03 17:16:03 GMT

Propane (LP gas) Specs. :
FYI. I had this sent to me since I've been getting some liquid propane in my forge.

Propane specs. as faxxed to me this morning by my Co-op propane supplier. From Mid America Pipeline. This is called HD-5 propane. What gets delivered to my 500 gallon house tank and all propane users around here in WI.

90% liquid volume minimum propane. 5% liquid volume maximum propylene. 2.5% liquid volume maximum butane.

95% evaporation at -37 degree F maximum. 123 ppmw volatile sulphur. .05ml residual upon evaporation of 100 ml. 4.2 pounds per gallon. 36.2 cubic feet of gas per gallon of liquid. 8.6 cubic feet of gas per pound (no temperature given so I ASSUME 68 F). 2530 BTU per cubic foot of gas. -45 degree F dew point. 104 to 110 octane equivalent.

1.09 gallons of liquid propane = 1 Therm = 100,000 BTU. 10.93 gallons of propane = 1000 cubic feet of natural gas. 21,600 BTU per pound for propane. 21,200 for butane. 1000 BTU per cubic foot of natural gas. 19,600 BTU per pound of #2 fuel oil. 14,000 BTU per pound of soft coal.

Vapor pressure (psig) is 19 @-20 F; 28 @ 0 F; 120 @ 70 F and 190 @ 100 F.

Have fun and be safe.
- Tony - Thursday, 02/06/03 17:51:12 GMT

Zero-HVLP: Thanks for the comeback on the spraygun, Zero. BTW, did you know you can go to Harbor Freight's website and print yourself a spare manual for this and many of their other products? I have made shop and file copies for most of the major items I have purchased from them. (A good feature for those of us who tend to set fire to things!)
3dogs - Thursday, 02/06/03 18:08:53 GMT

My complaint was with the manual itself. My guess is they pirated the text from a different spray gun.

They say things in the section on cleaning like "remove the paint Plastic Cup from the Air Spray Gun", to pour out any extra paint. It has a hole in the bottom, and a vent on top. This would make a really spetacular mess!

I simply remove the lid, tip the gun upside down, pour out paint, then clean. The gun also has an extra knob on the side that they simply call a "Control Knob". Near as I can figure it's some sort of second air control, which didn't seem to do much of anything when I adjusted it... ;-)

I suppose for the price, one has to expect a few flaws. I actually find such things more humorous than annoying.
- Zero - Thursday, 02/06/03 18:57:54 GMT

Asian Instluction: I know what you mean about the manuals. Often they go beyond humorous and into the realm of hilarity. If you're looking for some REAL giggles, go to the dollar stores and read the paperwork that comes with the crap they sell. The liquidation stores are another great source of entertainment. The Asian languages are more like word pictures than what we're used to. I remember reading about an English translation of a Chinese railroad crossing sign which said something like "Tremble with fear at the approaching dragon carriage." Maybe the closer you get to real English on the instructions, the better the quality. (At least until they figure THAT out.) Thanks again. Best regards, 3dogs
3dogs - Thursday, 02/06/03 19:22:15 GMT

Asian Language: I have toadmit that some of the translations I've seen wee pretty indecipherable, but I'm not going to fault them for that. English is one of the more difficult languages, with 46 separate phonemes (sounds) and a grammatical structure that is draconian at best. Toss in dialect, idiiom and slang, and it's little wonder that a language like Chinese is hard to translate. Some Chinese dialects have more than 56 phonemes, rising and falling inflection, and reliance on positional emphasis. Even more complex than English. How would you like to try to translate your language to another?

On the other hand, they seem to be remarkably good at copying designs, but often very poor at understanding the underlying engineering so that what they make in the way of "knock-offs" is too often visually identical but functionally useless. To be fair though, they often make their knockoffs easier to service than the originals were.

Theabove does not apply to oriental automobiles, which seem to require the "Japanese second elbow joint" to service. Or a cutting torch to clear the way. (grin)
vicopper - Thursday, 02/06/03 19:45:42 GMT


Not necessary. Chapter one is written, Illustrator should be finished by the weekend, will be up shortly. I think I'm back in the groove.

What did they use for hangover's back then? Never mind, I remember now. (grin)
Paw Paw - Thursday, 02/06/03 20:17:42 GMT

Vic: The same can be applied to many small American cars as well.

My oldest son is driving our old Ford Escort until we get his '67 Mustang on the road. Last year the timing belt broke. So I went to the local small-town auto parts store and got a new belt -- the owner regularly copies the useful pages out of the manual for me as a bonus.

First line of the replacement steps was "remove engine".

Yep, they were right. I managed to cut the timing belt cover with my Foredom and remove it as two pieces, epoxy tabs to it, and it installed just fine. Otherwise it WOULD have meant pulling the engine and transaxle.

Most of the newer cars should just have a big sticker on the hood that reads: No User Serviceable Parts Contained Within...
Zero - Thursday, 02/06/03 20:40:37 GMT

PPW: "Hair of the Dog", cold compresses, willow bark tea, oppressing the natives...

- Thomas Powers - Thursday, 02/06/03 22:03:25 GMT

Auto rant, cont.: Jim, (Zero)

I learned about that when I had to replace the oil pump on my '85 S-10. Step One, you guessed it. Wouldn't have been necessary at all if the frame crossmember below the oil pan hadn't been welded in place. Four bolts would have made life much easier. Know what you can't rent here? Yep, an engine hoist. Had to use a friend's wrecker. That was the first "modern" vehicle I've owned. All my old wrecks from the sixties and seventies were user-friendly, for the most part.

When the S-10 (now about an S-7.5) finally bites the dust, I'm gonna try to find a decent P/U from the forties. They were built to handle the sort of "roads" we have here, and can be fixed with wire and duct tape. I know, I've done it.

When I was in college, I had a 40-something Ford P/U that spun a mian bearing when I was driving it to Mexico. Naturally, this happened in the middle of nowhere in southern New Mexico, on a Sunday. I crawled under it, dropped the oil pan, removed the bearing cap and the remains of the shell and cut a piece of my latigo leather belt the right length to wrap around the crankshaft journal. Soaked the belt in oil, slapped the cap on, buttoned it up and finished the trip. I put about five thousand pretty hard miles on that leather bearing before I got together the money to rebuild the engine. Still looked good when it came out, and the journal was fine. I like low tech! (grin)
vicopper - Thursday, 02/06/03 22:27:05 GMT

Cookie brewed some willow bark tea. Some of the guys celebrated a bit too much. (grin)
Paw Paw - Thursday, 02/06/03 22:28:10 GMT

Blacksmithin': Rich,(Vic)

I used a similar trick on a air conditioner in a hotel room on Maui. The desk kindly gave us an "upgrade" to a second floor beach-front room, it only had a "small" problem with the cooling (i.e. no bearings on the fan shaft).

A chunk of belt, two coat hangers and suntan lotion as lube, and I had her purring like a kitten.

Shame we can't carry a Leatherman/Gerber or other tools in carry-on these days. They've saved my bacon more than once during travel.

BTW: Used the word Blacksmithin' just to, kind of, stick to semi-appropriate content... ;-)
Zero - Friday, 02/07/03 01:06:57 GMT

FWIW, I heat with propane, and have two 250 gallon tanks on the property. The guy who fills my tanks, also fills my smaller tanks. I tip him twenty bucks at Christmas, and he doesn't care if they're equipped with the newfangled valve or not.

I don't want to get anyone into trouble, but this works for me. I'm not looking forward to shelling out several hunderd dollars to buy new tanks -- It's cheaper to buy a new tank, than to retrofit a new valve.

Payola... It's not just for mobsters any more!
Zero - Friday, 02/07/03 01:23:54 GMT


It's my understanding (and I could be wrong) that the OPD is only on the "picnic", 20# bottle.
Paw Paw - Friday, 02/07/03 01:57:05 GMT

OPD Tanks: True, the legit outfits won't fill the older picnic bottles any more. So, who says YOU can't fill them? If you have a really big tank at your house, get it rigged with a liquid supply line as well as a gas supply line. Use the liquid line to fill your little tank. On a 100 lb cylinder, they tell you to use it vertically so you don't draw liquid...Hmmm. My latest 100# still has the regular valve. So do the six or eight little bottles I have lying around. Shouldn't be hard to make a manifold to fill them.
vicopper - Friday, 02/07/03 02:57:19 GMT

Ever Heard of it?: My local farm supply store has 110lb anvil in stock. It is a Wisdom brand anvil. It has a great face on it but the horn is rough. Anyone heard of the quality of these? It is only $100 and I am mainly an armourer and I would probably have to clean up the horn on it so I can use it for metal forming. Thanks for any info you may be able to provide.
- Helwyn - Friday, 02/07/03 03:37:48 GMT

"WISDOM"??: Helwyn, it sounds like another incarnation of the now-famous Harbor Freight Russian cast steel anvil, but with a name like "Wisdom", I'd almost be willing to bet it was not Russian. It would also surprise me to find that it was even cast steel. I'd stick with the Russky, pay the freight charges, and not worry about chunks of it falling on the floor. If you live near a Harbor Freight, it'd be worth the drive, they charge about 80 bucks for it. Check their website and see if there's one reasonably near you. Read the evaluation of the Russian on this website. Best regards, 3dogs

t'd be worth the drive, they only charge about 80 bucks for it.
3dogs - Friday, 02/07/03 06:32:33 GMT

Sheesh!: (sorry about the big gap, guys)
3dogs - Friday, 02/07/03 06:34:09 GMT

3dogs: If I'm not mistaken, Harbor Freight has free shipping on items over $50. Makes that Russian look like an even better deal!
eander4 - Friday, 02/07/03 06:56:33 GMT

Helwyn: I checked the Harbor Freight web site ( The shipping would be free, but the listed price is now $99.99. Oh, the bitter realities of suppply and demand! However, <$1 per pound is still a great deal for cast steel. I'd probably play it safe and go that route, just watch out when placing your order. They carry a number of cast iron junkers as well. Make sure you get the right one.

The horn will still need some work to meet your needs, but 3dogs is right; you'll be better off in the long run with a known commodity.
eander4 - Friday, 02/07/03 07:22:07 GMT

Harbor Freight, Old Cars: We have a harbour freight store in town, kind of amusing in a spooky way---their "Cast Iron" anvil had the description saying it was steel, (can you say Fraud? I though you could) and the price didn't match up what the circular a friend of mine had received---we had to go back and get it and then they gave it to us for that price---they needed the "code" for that item at that price. Why I needed an ASO? Come to Quad-State and *see*, It will be in the MOB encampment and all MOBsters are willing to accept payola...

I once had a 1968 Ford Country Sedan station wagon that to replace the heater hose you had to remove the hood and fender to get to the copper pipe that was located just a couple of inches inside the fender/engine compartment wall.

3 more inches of copper and it would be a 5 minute job...
but that was a rarity; most stuff was easy to do even on the 390 engine with no smog controls...

- Thomas Powers - Friday, 02/07/03 14:17:18 GMT

OPD/big tanks, anvil: If you have a bulk tank, another option is just run off the big tank instead of filling smaller. Unless of course you have to work a ways away from the big tank. Grin. I don't know if I mentioned it here, I got the propane fittings from my propane supplier and put a tee and valve on the 500 gallon tank valve so I can get high pressure propane to my shop. The least expensive was buying a 100', 3/8" ID type T torch twin hose and just using the fuel line for the propane. $100 from and it was good Parker brand hose with brass fittings. When the frost is out, I will bury some new plastic LP tubing to a manifold in the shop and use the torch hose for a propane torch. What is above ground will be copper or steel of course for less damage potential.

The local home and farm supply places sell up to 100 pound propane cylinders with OPD valves. Can't get away from them around here unless you get a welding cylinder.

What do propane suppliers in other areas do? If you use a couple hundred gallons of propane a year, local propane suppliers will be more than happy to plunk a big tank down for you, put regulators on it, run 25' or so of copper, and let you use it, fill it for you at a much cheaper rate than filling small bottles, etc. I know some areas have said that the price for bulk tank and small bottle is nearly the same. But the convenience and less chance of freezeup of a big tank is nice.

Of course, in the cold weather, 0 degrees ish, I do have a small liquid propane situation I mentioned above. But I'm confident I can solve that. Grin.

Helwyn, around here, one could get a 700 pound or more hunk of steel to use for an anvil for $100. From the local steel scrap people. Or multiple different shaped hunks of steel which might be good for armour. That is of course assuming you are not set on a specific anvil shape. Grin. Where are you located? I have some extra 400 poundish 8" diameter steel shafts that work well as anvils for me and I could give you one. Many lighter ones too. I accumulate them as scrap from work. At some point they become trebuchet counterweight or ammo. I'd rather have someone forge on them. I can get more.
Tony - Friday, 02/07/03 14:22:05 GMT

Propane: Here I've only seen the new valves on the small tanks. 100-lb tanks have the old valve.

Extra elbows: Few complaints about the need for extra joints on a full-size Chev pickup and a Geo Tracker. :) Only thing I can think of offhand is the cross member that gets in the way of dropping the transmission pan on the truck. Big peeve is the electronics. Sensors, computer, all that. Great stuff as long as it works...

Anvils: I can testify that any old massive hunk of scrap steel makes a pretty good anvil. Kind of wondered what I'd use the horn for until I got hooked up with the local group and started doing all the candleholders, pokers, trolls, hooks, and so on. Now I think the horn has got to be one of the really great inventions. But if I'd stayed with my early aim of making chisels and knives, I think I'd be perfectly happy with the large heavy block.

Steve A - Saturday, 02/08/03 03:03:31 GMT

Longship Company has Voted to Acquire New 40' Ship: The membership has voted to purchase the 40' longship presently under construction in California. We expect delivery by the end of summer or early autumn. She will be 40' long, 9'6" on the beam, draw less than two feet, take 12 oars and spread about 320 square feet of sail. She's long and low and lean and light and she promises to be fast and handy.

So if you, or any of your friends, have ever had a wish to go viking now's the time. We're into a major recruiting drive, 'cause keeping boats isn't cheap, even one so simple as a longship. (Engine=$0, electronics [MB radios] are all handheld, no galley, no cushions, no drapes, no stereo, no fish finder...) First year's dues are $20, with sustaining dues at $40 if you hang around after the first year.

Long hours, hard work, irregular pay, scandalous company, but you get to go viking!

Until the ship is delivered, you can get lots of training on our two existing vessels and help prepare the rigging, tackle and gear for the new one.

Would anybody be interested in forging an Oseberg style anchor?

Go viking:

Join Now!
Bruce Blackistone - Saturday, 02/08/03 03:42:24 GMT

Repousse': I'm looking for articles on repousse' tools and techniques for a new web-page. Also photos of examples of repousse in steel, copper, brass, bronze.

Articles can be brief, such as recipes for pitch, useful ideas.

PLEASE: No published or copyrighted works unless YOU are the author/photographer.

Jock D. - Saturday, 02/08/03 15:11:20 GMT

OPD Valves, Propane: Please see my post on the guru page. I made a bunch of phone calls and wrote some letters on the problems and issues and posted the results. SHould probably put together a FAQ.
Jock D. - Saturday, 02/08/03 15:16:08 GMT

Tonight I built the first fire in my new coal forge that I made over the past two weeks. I was pleased with how well it worked. No complaints from any neighbors about smoke, and the hood kept the smoke away from me as well! I made a simple hoof pick out of 1/4" round, not elaborate, but functional. I was glad to have installed an air gate between the blower and the tuyere as the fire control was really much better than the coal forges I've been using in class. I was able to use the tongs I made in class which made the project especially sweet! Thanks for the advice and encouragement!
Ellen - Sunday, 02/09/03 03:21:40 GMT


You're on your way! Well done!
Paw Paw - Sunday, 02/09/03 03:28:40 GMT

Cannon Cockers:

Somebody here on Anvilfire was a cannon cocker while he was in the military. I can't remember who it was, so if he reads this, please contact me via-email. (and no cracks about my memory being the second thing to go,
either!) (grin)
Paw Paw - Sunday, 02/09/03 21:19:10 GMT

"Well Done" :: Well done Ellen.. Now just keep moving ahead... Like we all did...
Barney - Sunday, 02/09/03 22:00:12 GMT

Looking for parts for an old (I don't know how old) buffalo forge table. I need the apple, twere etc. Any suggestions for a source are appreciated.
  Brad Paddock - Monday, 02/10/03 00:04:59 GMT


Kayne and Son, advertisors here on anvilfire. sell compatible parts. They aren't original, but they'll work and put the forge back into working condition.
Paw Paw - Monday, 02/10/03 00:50:37 GMT

Folks, Cannon Cocker is an old infantryman's term for an artillery man! It's not what you think it is! (grin)
Paw Paw - Tuesday, 02/11/03 04:12:45 GMT

Forge Pan Lining: David, I have recently gone through the same process of trying to determine what to line a forge with, and after talking with the folks here at anvilfire, they led me to castable refractory, which I found fairly inexpensively that will hold up, up to 3000 degrees farenheit, I bought it from a place in California and the subject to look up in is FCR 50, they said it had the consistency of plaster when mixed, and it just takes a while to dry before firing. a fifty pound bag costs 48 dollars plus shipping, but they also sell a twenty pound bag that I purchased, fifty is overkill.
- Scudder - Wednesday, 02/12/03 00:14:51 GMT


I couldn't spot the California listing. I'd like to add them to my list of bookmarks. Can you supply a URL for a web site, please?
Paw Paw - Wednesday, 02/12/03 01:34:01 GMT

info: looking to volunteer with a blacksmith to learn the skill very flexable hours will do almost any job as long as i am learning. i am located in the new york city area
- keith kaiser - Wednesday, 02/12/03 02:03:57 GMT


Suggest you go to the ABANA page and see if you can locate a chapter near you. Join that chapter, and go from there.
Paw Paw - Wednesday, 02/12/03 02:24:11 GMT

Hi! I need plans of vertical hammer to do it by myself. Were can i download them? Russia/Paul/ Thanks an advance.
Paul - Wednesday, 02/12/03 15:37:29 GMT

FCR50: PawPaw, try That's the Sundance Art Glass Center, 178 Stierlin Rd. Mountain View, CA 94043 (45 min south of San Francisco) Email is 3dogs
3dogs - Wednesday, 02/12/03 15:43:02 GMT


That should get me in contact with them, thanks!
Paw Paw - Wednesday, 02/12/03 16:46:45 GMT

Refractories: PawPaw, For a really good listing of just about everybody in the refractory business, plus product evaluations, take a look at
3dogs - Wednesday, 02/12/03 17:25:01 GMT

PPW also look at E.J.Bartells

Also there is a company called Coltronics. I have not bought from them, but they did send a catalog. They are a bit pricy but they did seem rather helpfull
  Ralph - Wednesday, 02/12/03 23:19:57 GMT

Got em guys. I'll cruise them later. Ralph, did Coltronics have a web site? I can't seem to find them.
Paw Paw - Thursday, 02/13/03 00:44:48 GMT

PPW rats! I am a bad boy. I had the name wrong. But there is a web site.
Now if I learned how to use this here URl window then it will be here after I post...
Ralph - Thursday, 02/13/03 16:57:22 GMT


That worked, Thanks!
Paw Paw - Thursday, 02/13/03 17:49:56 GMT

PPW Por Nada!
Glad to be of service.
Ralph - Thursday, 02/13/03 20:41:51 GMT

Can anyone tell me anything about Anderson anvils? I belive it to be English and it appears old, wrought and somewhere around 150lbs. Any ideas abought a fair price per pound in good condition?
  Layne - Saturday, 02/15/03 20:29:11 GMT


Are there any other markings on the anvil? There are no listings for Anderson in ANVILS IN AMERICA.
Paw Paw - Saturday, 02/15/03 23:14:22 GMT

Layne, the price may vary by a factor of 3 depending on where you are at---and that is just in the USA! So some hint about what continent you are on might help.

Here in central OH it is still possible to find a good anvil in good condition for $1 a pound---*if* you are willing to hunt for it! $2 a pound will get you most anvils around here.

  Thomas Powers - Monday, 02/17/03 17:41:01 GMT

anvil prices: Here in NM used anvils are $3 - $4 per lb. Really beat up worn anvils will go for $2/lb. Of course this is among smiths who know the value - if you come across one in the hands of a "normal person" :) you may get it for $1/lb
- adam - Tuesday, 02/18/03 16:05:28 GMT

Workshops/Clinics: I've got three workshops lined up for Heartland, USA. New Salem Historical Site, New Salem, IL, April 12-13; Prairie Blacksmiths Ass'n, Malcolm, NE, September 13-14; Saltfork Craftsmen, October 11-12. Guthrie, OK. We're working on the possibility of extending the Nebraska workshop for two more days as a special Intensive.

I do very little large architectural work, so we'll be emphasizing hardware and forge welding.
Frank Turley - Wednesday, 02/19/03 14:26:12 GMT

Workshops: And toolsmithing, esp., W1 and S7.
Frank Turley - Wednesday, 02/19/03 14:30:02 GMT

Trebuchet. No smithing.: VIC, I’ll be out of town tonight and tomorrow and will probably call Thursday or Friday. For some reason, I can’t get the picture out of my mind of us sitting on a beach at dusk with a dark rum drink of some kind in hand and hurling flaming coconuts. Let’s avoid hurling at Navy equipment. I’m confident that we could win, but let’s not guts it. Grin. I can bring or send down a shaft for the treb. Just let me know what size bearings. Actually, attaching one bearing to the treb arm and clamping the shaft in place on the frame works good too and is frequently easier. There is not much side load on a treb arm, but a single bearing cannot be of the self aligning variety. If we are just flinging coconuts, the smaller treb will work if you have seen that picture. 400 poundsish of counterweight and can be cocked by one guy. Much easier that way. Should be able to hurl a coconut more than 300 feet. 1-1/4" pipe works fine for a small to middling size treb frame, but less triangulation is required with bigger pipe.

If you can find a 8 foot piece of 2" schedule 40 pipe for the arm, I could bring a bearing and axle assembly from my smaller treb. That would save some time.

Of course, if we want a longer trajectory and have some piece of equipment to cock the arm.......we can also go bigger......

Any estates need demolition? Grin.

Think about it and we can discuss when I call.

Frank, I’d seriously like to attend your April workshop in IL. But that’s when I have to go see VIC’s forge and the airline tickets are not refundable. Dang it.
- Tony - Wednesday, 02/19/03 15:30:15 GMT

"Workshop" :: Workshop up here in the North Coutry. 21th July -26th. Canadore College here in North Bay. 21 - 22 is a two dayer. 23 to 26 four dayer.. The 2 day is a basic get started. The 4 day one is more detail work. All equipment supplied. Will post more as the day gets closer..

So come on up and see the north for a few days..
Barney - Wednesday, 02/19/03 19:02:45 GMT

Since Paw Paw goes after those who misrepresent the quality of ASO's sold on eBay. Thought he (and the rest of ya'll) would enjoy this ad.

I'm, obviously, not giving a sales pitch here... ;-)
Very rare ASO
Zero - Wednesday, 02/19/03 19:21:32 GMT

Trebs and Anvils: Tony,

I'll check the bearings when I get home. I'm sure we can come up with something appropriate to the task. I'll check the supermarket to make sure they sell Ivory Flakes, too. (grin)

Jim (0),

Thanks for that! I 'bout fell over laughing. What do you bet Barry buys the thing and re-sells it for double? (grin)
vicopper - Wednesday, 02/19/03 19:54:45 GMT

Paw Paw:

And Mike clearly states that the whole thing is a joke.


You can you strofoam peanuts if the store is out of Ivory Flakes. Just have to let them soak longer.
Paw Paw - Wednesday, 02/19/03 20:30:34 GMT

Anvil ID: PPW didn't the Arm&Hammer use the same base with the pill shaped cavity as the trenton after 1910 (and some since 1907?)

Going to an Industrial Archeology meeting in South OH this weekend weather permitting, a branch group of the folks that put on Ironmasters conference.

- Thomas Powers - Wednesday, 02/19/03 20:43:52 GMT


According to Postman, they started using the cavity about 1909.


That sentence should read:

You can use styrofoam peanuts......
Paw Paw - Wednesday, 02/19/03 22:09:09 GMT

Pasture Party:

I'm not going to make it. We lost the blower motor out of the furnace last night and replacing it wiped out the budget.

I'm sorry, I wanted to see you guys, and attend the Pasture Party.
Paw Paw - Wednesday, 02/19/03 23:08:58 GMT

pyrometers etc: PPW sorry to hear about the trip cancelation....

here is some info on an optical pyrometer. (also posted in Guru area)
Ralph - Thursday, 02/20/03 18:55:21 GMT

Andersen Anvil: Adam, Thomas and Paw Paw, thanks for the anvil pricing assistance. I just went ahead and bought the old girl for $200 despite no one having seem to have heard of an Andersen before. It is only marked ANDERSEN in a semi circle and 160 below that, which is the actual weight (not in English hundredweight system). It is 30" total length and 4"wide. It has the front, rear and bottom square handling holes and is obviously forged. Any clues anyone? Danish maybe?
- Layne - Sunday, 02/23/03 00:46:03 GMT


Any anvil is worth exactly what the buyer is willing to pay for it. If you are happy with the condition and re-bound of the anvil, you got a good buy and to heck with any body elses opinion, including mine.

I still don't have a clue, but I do have an idea. It may be a Hay Budden that was made for a hardware company. They did that quite a bit. The fact that it's actual weight indicates that it is more than likely of American manufacture. If you'll take a set of pictures, six in all. One from each side one from the horn end, one from the heel end, one down to the face and one of the bottom, scan and send them to me, I'll see what I can figure out for you. One thing you might do, scrub the anvil down all over with a scotch bright pad. See if there is a serial number on the front of the foot, under the horn. And look for any other marks that it may have on it.
Paw Paw - Sunday, 02/23/03 01:04:55 GMT

Andersen Anvil: Thanks as usual Paw Paw. I would be very happy if it turned out to be a Hay Budden...been wanting one. I got a wild hare and called Mr. Postman (ultra nice man!). He had some initial thoughts that it might really be a Sanderson made by Mouse Hole, but due to the sEn spelling and total lack of any signs of an S at the beginning, his second thought was that it might be Swedish circa 1870 and made for export to the US, but he had not heard of one like it. I'll send you photos ASAP and scour it for other markings (my wife said I had to clean it before I could put it on the dining room table anyway! LOL)
Layne - Sunday, 02/23/03 03:55:12 GMT


You're wife is like that too, huh? I guess they all are! (grin)

Yes, Richard Postman is one very nice guy. I've talked to him several times over the years.
Paw Paw - Sunday, 02/23/03 04:22:02 GMT

Layne: The place I live used to be a Danish territory until the US bought it around WWI. None of the Danish stuff I have seen was marked in pounds, only in kilos. I have an old anvil made in 1889 that has no markings other than the date and 89KG. It is likely Danish, but not proven. It is a side-face design, and a bit too soft. I do like it, though.

I agree with PawPaw. If you like it, then you got a great deal.
vicopper - Sunday, 02/23/03 05:06:51 GMT


Some folks seem to think that value is an absolute. I tell them that it's no such thing. Value is a variable. Any item is worth two prices, what the buyer is willing to pay and what the seller is willing to accept. If buyer and seller can agree, then the sale will be made. If they can't, no sale will happen. Seems simple to me, but some folks never grasp the concept.
Paw Paw - Sunday, 02/23/03 06:00:42 GMT

PawPaw: Or, as Adam Smith said (I believe), "The value of a thing is what that thing will bring." Simple. I own some things that are either invaluable or of no value, depending on how you look at them. In any case, I ain't selling them! (grin)
vicopper - Sunday, 02/23/03 13:44:34 GMT

Realtive value: I've heard it said that when you buy a vase, it's pronounced, "vase". When you sell one, you pronounce it, "vahz".
Frank Turley - Sunday, 02/23/03 15:21:19 GMT

Vic and Frank:

Vic, what Adam Smith said only covers one side of the equation, though. The buyer side. It doesn't cover the seller's side of the equation.

Frank, that's not a value designation, that's salesmanship! (grin)
Paw Paw - Sunday, 02/23/03 16:10:22 GMT

Geographic Value:
Vic, Paw Paw, et al: Here on the west coast anvils are an elusive species. And, shipping from areas of high anvil concentration adds freight cost and possible damage. So for me, $3 - $4 per pound for a "good" old anvil is not out of the question. The longer I wait, the fatter my wallet (anvil fund) gets!

On a non-smithing topic (I thought the engineers and other folks here would possibly find this of interest): I attended the conference for this (attached) event yesterday, it's pretty wild stuff.
DARPA Challenge
Zero - Sunday, 02/23/03 18:52:09 GMT


What size anvil are you looking for?
Paw Paw - Sunday, 02/23/03 19:21:35 GMT

Paw Paw:

Something in the mid 100# to 200# range. I've got a 110# ASO right now, and it works just fine except for the lousy bick. I machined-up a nice hardy cone to overcome the poor anvil horn, but, as ya'll know, the forces are against you when you try to forge/wrap around such instruments.

Patience is a virtue, I'll find one sooner or later...

I also must confess to not being a member of any local BS organizations (CBA, etc...), just CSI. However, one of the members here, Wayne Parris, is just twenty minutes away (if the CSI members list is current). Perhaps I need to "network" a little more??... ;-)

Okay, with some introspection, I'm just LAZY!!
Zero - Sunday, 02/23/03 22:00:09 GMT

DARPA: Zero, thanks for the DARPA thing. Very cool. I wish I knew a sparky with the necessary electrical knowledge. Playing in the dirt is something I've not grown out of. Cripes, I won't be able to get that out of my mind now for a while. Grin.
- Tony - Monday, 02/24/03 00:04:20 GMT

Anvils: JIm (zero),

I feel for ya, brother. When I decided to get back into blacksmithing a year ago, I went looking for an anvil. Guess what there aren't any of in the Virgin Islands? Right. You don't even want to know how much it costs to ship one here, either. I finally found one buried in the dirt at a welding shop and the guy took a hundred bucks for it. The 89kg one mentioned previously. Nice shape, but way too soft. I'm seriously tempted to build a big coal fire down at the beach and heat that thing up and toss it in the ocean to see if it gets hard. (grin) But not until I have a replacement in case it turns out to be a really bad idea.

If I could just get the guy with the 400+ lb. Peter Wright to sell it, I'd be happy as a pig in s***. Next time I see him, I'm gonna offer him a thousand cash and see if he bites. If he goes for it, I'll have to sleep on the porch for a month or so, but it'll be worth it. (big grin)
vicopper - Monday, 02/24/03 01:11:27 GMT

Hey y'all. Forge meeting project today was a shovel to go with the poker they made last time - when I was fresh out of surgery and couldn't participate. Well, today I got through the shovel and the poker. Had to bring rivets home and finish the shovel here, but got both done. Posted pictures on the photo site. I guess the big thrill in all this is the poker was MY FIRST FORGE WELD and it STUCK THE FIRST TIME. :-) VERY big grin.

Steve A - Monday, 02/24/03 01:55:57 GMT


Rich (Vic):

>I'm seriously tempted to build a big coal fire down at the beach and heat that thing up and toss it in the ocean to see if it gets hard. >

Sounds like something you and Tony could use as Treb ammo! (as I remain seriously jealous of your pending hi jinks).

Tony: Yeah, I frequent the southern California desert in my "modified" '68 CJ5 (pre smog for this area). I had a VERY strong team ready for the challenge, but getting 1000 waypoints, over 300 miles, in six hours (Autonomous!) is a bit of a stretch -- so... it'll be fun to watch!

It's funded trough 2007, maybe someone will win by then??

So, Tony, where do you 4x (my as well keep a topic going on the Hammer-in...)

Zero - Monday, 02/24/03 02:17:50 GMT


Little proud of yourself? You're entitled to be.

Of all of the different smithing "operations" most folks find the forge weld to be the most difficult. Well done!
Paw Paw - Monday, 02/24/03 02:18:01 GMT


Nice looking work, too! Where do you find the marbles? I've been looking for some about that size for several years now, with no luck.
Paw Paw - Monday, 02/24/03 02:20:36 GMT

Man I wish I could get true glass marbles that big too......

I have many projects I need them for
Ralph - Monday, 02/24/03 03:42:10 GMT

All the Marbles:-): You could always invest in another expensive hobby that involves fire, and get yourself a two gas lampwork glass torch and the hand tools and the annealing kiln for doing it. Then you could make your own marbles, and blown glass vessels, and lampwork beads... I have a small gas air torch for doing soft glass and I lust after a nice two gas torch, and full large tanks:-) Without the kiln to anneal the marbles and stuff you should be able to get set up for something over $1000

Probably Cheaper to just locate a supplier:-) Not as much fun mind you, but considerably cheaper:-)

I just took a class on making your own mosiac came like millifilori, I need a bigger torch:-)
Fionnbharr - Monday, 02/24/03 05:11:36 GMT


While your approach does have merit, my wife would kill me! And Dawn wouldn't be happy with Ralph, either! (grin)
Paw Paw - Monday, 02/24/03 05:58:29 GMT

4x, DARPA:
Jim (zero), I've off roaded in a bunch of places. The Rubicon in CA, Tellico (Carolinas), Black hills of South Dakota, Moab Utah, Missouri, Tennesee, Michigan, Alaska, parts of Canada, a little in England, China and Mexico, etc. but mostly around home here in Wisconsin. Logging roads and utility rights of way. Just did a little rally, weekend before this last.

I was a director in a National club for a while. It’s one of the things I like to do with my family. Getting off the pavement and away from the pavement mentality has always been high on my list.

I started vehicular off roading in rust belt VW beetles. Buy 'em for $200, tear the fenders off, put some snow tires on, and run the snot out of 'em till they die. Slid across a mud hole past my brother in laws stuck Jeep once. Grin! I still have a couple of beetles and bunch of parts. Honestly, that was some of the most fun I’ve had. Little money and no worries invested. From there, I built a couple of junkyard vehicles and did some class 2 1600 off road racing. then got into Jeeps, still have a couple. A 65 CJ5 with V-6 and a 73 Cherokee with a 360 4 speed. Both of the Jeeps are laid up now. Blown motor in the CJ5 and Ignition and clutch in the Cherokee. I get in the mud and get kinda hard on the equipment. Grin! Did a little front wheel drive ice racing in VW rabbits too. That was fun.

My son wants to build a monster truck and I’ve been assembling parts. Won’t be anything high horsepower or fast, but it will have tall tires. Grin.

There is some great stuff in CA. Do you have a favorite? I want to get into the Panamint valley some time.

I expect someone will pipe up if they don’t like us being off topic.

On the DARPA thing, if commercial 4wd’s can do the course, the primary challenge will be the autonomous part. Mostly an electrical issue as I see it. Vision systems, GPS, onboard computer, etc. I’m thinking fuel cell/electrical power to keep heat signature and noise level low. But I am assuming that fuel cells run fairly cool. Allowing 30 second jumps should show us some whacky stuff. I applaud the gubbermint getting others to help with research on military vehicles. Should be much more cost effective and fun to have teams compete.

Did I just say I applaud the gubbermint????

That is indeed a new one!!!
- Tony - Monday, 02/24/03 14:33:35 GMT

marbles: Paw Paw et. al.,
There is a lady here that makes glass marbles and beads. Contact me by email if you are interested and I will give you her telephone number.
Brian C - Monday, 02/24/03 15:35:11 GMT

More off topic...:
Tony: The vision system required for the DARPA race will need to be quite a system. Most of the areas the race crosses are wildlife preserves of one kind or another, so the width allowed for vehicle travel could be no more than 10 foot wide (tough even with DGPS and inertial guidance).

I think you've hit the nail on the head. A million bucks is a cheap way for the gubbermint to get a big leap in technology. Only one winner, but they'll likely harvest new developments from ALL the teams.

I did the Panamint range a few years ago. It's a very cool multi-day trip. Best is when you pull into Saline Springs; there's a big US National Monument sign (you know the type, brown with yellow lettering) that says something to the effect: This is a chothing optional campsite. Naked people EVERYWHERE! Everything from hard-body 20-something females, to overweight 60-something grandpas -- interesting to say the least...;-)

My favorite spots are the Mojave desert, up into Nevada and the lower fringe of the Great Basin desert from central Nevada to Utah (BLM rules in California compared to Nevada are like night and day).

I forged a nice campfire poker with a square double twist basket handle just for the offroad campfires, so we CAN balance 4x content and blacksmithing... ;-)
Zero - Monday, 02/24/03 16:07:54 GMT

Tony & Jim:

The Virtual Hammerin is intended to be a fun area. No subject (within the guidlines) is off topic.
Paw Paw - Monday, 02/24/03 16:21:28 GMT


Why not separate the guidance function into long range (GPS) and local (two lasers pointing straight ahead, watching for any obstruction)? Both could be computer operated, one to maintain and follow the GPS the other to "swerve" around any obstruction.
Paw Paw - Monday, 02/24/03 17:30:34 GMT

Paw Paw:

I figured we were still in-line with the general rules of this forum. I was just pointing out to the other folks that I was aware that we had veered off BS content.

However: Tony's got me thinking now (you'll NEVER forgive yourself for starting that process, Tony!). A offroad, Death Valley campout/hammer-in, would be a lot of fun (we can stay away from the nudists...).

Late winter to early spring is best. As in the summer you wouldn't NEED a forge, you could just set the iron in the sun to achieve a nice forge welding temperature... ;-)

Access would be easy with a standard PU truck, with the harder trails for those whishing to 4x4. Camping ranges from Juniper and Pinyon forest at 6500' to the flat playa of Badwater at -280' MSL (how many folks get to forge iron BELOW sea level!).

Just an idea. If anyone's interested, perhaps we could plan for '04??
Zero - Monday, 02/24/03 17:52:27 GMT

marbles and immenint death by spouse: PPW, actually Dawn and i want to get a small glass blowing setup going once we have the $$$$ for the equipment and space... Dawn is quite interested in that and ceramics.....

I do have a glass place here in teh Portland area. ( Bullseye Glass) but so far they are a bit spendy, and i am not sure from thier web site if they have the glass i really want... no sheet right now, but larger thicker chunks will be good.... I am thinking of marking some Christams ornaments out of iron and glass....
Ralph - Monday, 02/24/03 17:59:54 GMT

Jim (Paw Paw):

The Darpa route is being planned by Sal Fish (CEO of SCORE offroad racing). It includes paved roads/city streets, dirt roads, railroad shoulders, dry washes and through underpass' of those washes, dry lakebeds and water crossings.

The route data is lat & lon for the waypoint, the speed limit for the waypoint and the width of the route for the waypoint. So... If you've got a winding dirt road through the desert hills, and your route width is only 10' wide, the vehicle has to follow the road exactly, or be disqualified.

To add insult to injury, some waypoints WON'T be in range of a GPS signal. Some points will be 100' apart, others might be 1000' apart. You only get the route data two hours before the race starts, so there's no pre-running the course.

Your vehicle will have to KNOW the difference between a dry wash crossing a road, and the road itself (and visa versa). Not to mention a water crossing, and finding the road on the other side.

No human (or other lifeform) is allowed to touch the vehicle or in any way command the vehicle during the race. It has to navigate 300 miles of desert, make one twenty minute "pit stop" in a fenced enclosure, pass through all 1000 waypoints and cross the finish line in (about) six hours all by itself.

It sounded easy to me when I first heard about it, but after the conference on Saturday the true magnitude of the task set-in. Methinks this is FAR from easy, but likely not impossible either.

The race is in March of '04, I'm sure ESPN, TLC, Discovery, etc... will carry it. Should be fun to watch!
Zero - Monday, 02/24/03 18:21:13 GMT

Paw-Paw, Thanks! I got the marbles from a craft store called Michael's. They had two sizes and too many colors. It is a chain that seems to be common up and down the I-65 corridor; don't know if they're on the east coast.

The demonstrator who showed me the marble thing had balls from about 1" to about 2" that were made from fiber optics. I think maybe the machine gets snarled while forming the fiber, and they take the snarls and polish them up round.

Thanks again!

Steve A - Monday, 02/24/03 18:42:58 GMT

Death Valley Hammer-in/campout/off roading:
Jim (zero), I'd be interested. And I can't think of a time that I've been sorry for getting someone thinking. It's when they DON'T think that I have problems. Grin!!
Tony - Monday, 02/24/03 19:00:24 GMT


Okay, I finally broke down and uploaded a few (two) photo's to the yahoo site. Nothing to write home about, but it's fun making this stuff nonetheless.

I cheat on the basket twist handles, and TIG weld the joint between the square stock and the shaft.

Steve: I like the marble idea (plus your fire tools!). I might have to mess around with a few myself.
Zero - Monday, 02/24/03 19:38:31 GMT

ZeroJeep, Darpa: Jim, tell me more about your Jeep. Axles, tires, drivetrain etc. I really like my CJ5, but it's mostly stock, so it doesn't hold up to my... ahem... use.

The Darpa thing will cost a bunch of money and time no doubt. Fun, but too much money and time for me and too far away. When you think of 50 mph average, that makes it pretty difficult for the tracking system too! I wonder why they have the speed requirement?
Tony - Monday, 02/24/03 20:15:50 GMT

marbles again: Steve A
Question, are these marble real glass or something else. I ask as in my use I will be slumping them. We have Michaels around here but last I saw no marbles.... think i will go and look today.....
Ralph - Monday, 02/24/03 20:36:34 GMT

'68 CJ5:

Tony: The CJ5 looks like heck, but goes like he*l.

Front axel is stock, the rear is a dana 40 (I'm guessing here, so don't hold me to it) I think. I've got the Rancho suspension (WAY too stiff), extra 20 gallon rear fuel tank, full cage and Deist (sp?) harness. I built a chevy 350 for it that just makes it scoot, and have to find time to install the new aluminum radiator I bought to keep it cooler in the southwest summer heat.

Traney is a Munci "Rockcrusher", bolted to a standard Mdl 18 transfercase (I removed the detent so I get both 4 low range and 2 low range).

I had a turbo 350 automatic transmission built for it last year, but need to save my pennies for the Novak adapter, and other items before I install it. That project will likely be a frame-off, because I have a power steering unit and other suspension issues I want to tinker with as well.

She sports 35x12.5 Goodrich Baja's, so there's PLENTY of footprint. In fact, I twisted the front driveshaft and have yet to weld up a new one, she still climbs like a striped-ass ape in 2wd (with no locker).

It is, and likely always will be a work-in-progress.

Or: Basically just another avenue for me to win a Darwin Award... ;-)

BTW: Mine doesn't hold up to my use either (that's why God invented welders!).
Zero - Monday, 02/24/03 21:29:08 GMT

Jeep pix:

Tony: I put some pix of my ugly monster on the web. I must temper this with fact that I took the last three photo's this afternoon, so ya'll east of the Rockies can see what the ground looks like without snow and/or mud on it (ooh! I'm an evil smart-ass, aren't I)... ;-)

www DOT dslextreme DOT com/users/jbakos
Zero - Tuesday, 02/25/03 00:22:45 GMT


If you put the URL into the block below the message block, it becomes clickable, and is coded to defeat the spammers. Makes it a lot easier for you and everybody else. I'll put it with my messsage, so you can see what I mean.
Paw Paw - Tuesday, 02/25/03 01:31:35 GMT

Andersen Anvil Again: Paw Paw et al, Once I got the anvil up on the wife's walnut dining room table...I noticed a glaring feature that in my excitement, I had previously missed. Under the front handling hole, in the center of the foot, there is a fourth, somewhat smaller handling hole. To rephrase, there is one under the tail, one on the bottom and TWO on the front aranged vertically under the horn. Mean anything to Anyone? I also found a 17 stamped on the front of driver's side foot. Shed any light on where this baby came from and/or when?
Layne - Tuesday, 02/25/03 01:49:46 GMT


Quoting ANVILS IN AMERICA, page 39.

"All Peter Wright anvils (after 1851) and early American anvils have four handling holes, the fourth having been punched into the middle of the foot under the horn"

So it is probably EITHER a Peter Wright, OR possibly a Hay Budden. I need a picture of the bottom of the anvil to be more sure.
Paw Paw - Tuesday, 02/25/03 02:19:02 GMT

Mo'Marbles: Ralph, next time you go to Michael's, look over where they have the clear glass vases. That's where they keep them in the Toledo, Ohio area. Some folks like to put them in a clear glass vase and let the sun shine thru them. Best regards, 3dogs
- 3dogs - Tuesday, 02/25/03 07:20:15 GMT

Jims Jeep: Jim, In my opinion, that's what a off road Jeep should look like! I think the nice paint and doodads are a waste. My 65 isn't much different, but not as nice. Grin. More rust than sheet metal on mine. Damx road salt.

My brother had a 79(I think) set up about the same. 350 etc. He kept twisting driveshafts too. My dad had a 76 with a 360 quadratrack, Superlift, 37 inch Goodyear MT's. That one worked well. Brother in law had a 81 with a 4 cylinder iron duke. He had to run the rpms up where the valves floated, but he kept up. He is a Goodyear dealer and ran wide rice harvester tires at 2 psi.

Hey! Mud is good! Mud is your friend! Be one with Mud!
Tony - Tuesday, 02/25/03 14:19:51 GMT


Not to worry, we've got mud. Obviously the weather Gods have taken offense to my flippant "east of the rockies" remark. So they sent 1.5" of rain last night (which is a lot when you only get 8" as a yearly total).

Why is it you only remember to deal with drainage issues AFTER it starts to rain?... ;-)
Zero - Tuesday, 02/25/03 16:21:56 GMT

Cause when it ain't rainin' there ain't nothin to drain. (grin)
Paw Paw - Tuesday, 02/25/03 18:07:19 GMT

marbles again.....: 3dogs,
Wish I had seen this post of yours before I went to the store...
I made the mistake of asking where they were and all they had in that area were the flat marbles, which I have lots of already.....
Will go back and look where you said. Who knows might actually get lucky.....

Ralph - Tuesday, 02/25/03 18:08:48 GMT

Marbles: Ralph, when I went I asked for glass marbles and got sent to an aisle toward the back of the store, about in the middle. I'd been looking to one side where all the craft paints and beads and stuff (and flat marbles) off to the side of the store. Even then I managed to demonstrate what I'm told is a male trait of being unable to find something hidden right there in plain sight. ;)

Actually, I've spent a fair amount of time wishing it would rain on my drainage troubles. After I built the house and spent time on the tractor getting it all graded off nice, we had a long drought and I forgot about it. Then it rained. Water is an excellent survey tool. I got in the habit of going out in the rain and sticking little orange flags in the ground to remind me where dirt needed to move. Then when it dried off, I'd repeat the process. After a year or so, the water pretty much goes where it should... :)

Steve A - Tuesday, 02/25/03 18:49:11 GMT

Michael's Craft Store: They're all over the East Coast. At least there are a bunch in NH and at least one in Orlando/Kissimmee. My wife can smell them out.
- Marc - Tuesday, 02/25/03 20:35:23 GMT

handling hole: According to Postman, a single digit stamped next to the handling hole under the horn is an inspector's stamp and is found exclusively on HB's. On my HB's these stamps are about 5/8" tall.
adam - Tuesday, 02/25/03 22:50:55 GMT

Layne's anvil doesn't have a single digit, it has the number 17 stamped there.
Paw Paw - Tuesday, 02/25/03 23:05:49 GMT

For Sale: I have several pices of native Vermont Soap Stone for sale if anyone is interested. Now this isn't the type of soap stone that you use in your shops to mark out distances or where to cut, hammer, or punch. This stuff is for sculping or dishing out for bowls or other such things. The soap stone is all raw it's right out of the ground I've done nothing to it at all, all of the pices are of different sizes,lengths, and shapes. If anyone is interested please let me know so we can work out a deal, or if you have any question about the product.
Jouryman - Friday, 02/28/03 17:28:43 GMT

Damm Ice Storms!

I'm back, getting caught up.
Paw Paw - Friday, 02/28/03 20:08:17 GMT

Star power hammer: Hello,

Can anyone tell me about a "star" power hammer?

- Greg - Sunday, 03/02/03 20:58:08 GMT

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