WELCOME to the anvilfire Guru's Den - V. 3.3

THIS is a forum for questions and answers about blacksmithing and general metalworking. Ask the Guru any reasonable question and he or one of his helpers will answer your question, find someone that can, OR research the question for you.

This is an archive of posts from December 1 - 8, 2009 on the Guru's Den
[ THE - GURUS | ABOUT THIS PAGE | Getting Started in Blacksmithing ]

Bruce Blackistone,
If water is a problem building an underground structure, I have a possible solution. The state of Mississippi does not allow gambling casinos on land, but will allow them in the waterways. What the casinos did was to build huge barges in the Mississippi River, and then build the casinos on top of the barges. At McKellar lake out from Memphis, houseboats are kept afloat with barrels, it is like a huge subdivision. Floating cranes lift these houses in order to service and replace barrels. It seems to me that watertight barrels or other similar devices could be used to stabilize underground structures from water. Try pushing a watertight barrel under the water with your hands. Ten men couldn't do it.
   Mike T. - Tuesday, 12/01/09 01:51:23 EST

I would like to purchase Calcium Flouride, but can't seem to find a source. I e-mailed one supplier, but never got a response. I'm sure some chemical supply place would have it. Also, would you consider anhydrous borax an aggressive flux or would there be something better ?
   Mike T. - Tuesday, 12/01/09 01:58:49 EST

Mike, Flux grade fluorite or flourspar is available from many ceramic suppliers. You want the top grade 98% CaF2. Borax is no considered an "aggressive" flux for chrome and nickle that is why the flourspar is added.
   - guru - Tuesday, 12/01/09 02:12:45 EST

Holes in precut parts: Drilling and reaming is several steps more than just reaming and could include layout and punching or making a jig and inserting and removing the part from the jig. If the part has a properly located hole reaming a floating part is ONE step. It may be possible to make a sprocket or similar part by having it cut and then doing nothing except reaming the hole.

I have a part to make that requires a heavy ratchet wheel to be accurately welded to a shaft. A near size pilot hole would be part of the laser cutting. The part would be centered by 3 pins in drill fixture for finishing the hole to size. This would assure the hole is centered within a few thousandths of an inch and sized to be a snug fit on a turned section of the shaft. A minimal number of operations. Time is money. . .
   - guru - Tuesday, 12/01/09 02:15:57 EST

Hammer handle wood: This past summer I cut down some young black walnut trees on my property. Really hard stuff, even now as it's not seasoned and should therefore be relatively soft it's not. Is this good stuff? My carpenter neighbor got some to play with and down the line we might attempt converting a drill press into a small vert lathe to make hammer handles from. Any advice is well appreciated.
   - Nippulini - Tuesday, 12/01/09 08:01:12 EST

Happy St. Eligius' Day!
   JimG - Tuesday, 12/01/09 09:56:05 EST

I made a walnut hammer handle once. It lasted about two days. It sure was pretty, though!

Walnut isn't terribly hard, but it is kinda brittle. Not a good combo for impact tools, but fine for cabinetry, hand tool handles (non-impact!) and gunstocks.
   Alan-L - Tuesday, 12/01/09 10:01:49 EST

I used walnut to make handles on some wood carving gouges and it has held up quite well. But I made ferrules for both ends and the striking end was quite large. The handles were octagon in section and shaped sort of like an old Coke-a-Cola bottle. The striking end bands were made from 2" sched 40 pipe. I've never used anything other than a proper mallet to strike them. We made the same for my brother but he used a stone carvers hammer on the wood handles. . . They didn't last but a few days. Mine are 32 years old now.

I've also used walnut for file handles and small low duty hammer handles.

Dogwood is great stuff for all kinds of things and takes an exceptional finish without coating. It makes great wooden spoons.

If you have short sections of log you want to keep for wood you need to half or better yet, quarter it (by splitting). This will reduce checking tremendously. Walnut needs to dry slow. From the quartered pieces you can saw boards, veneers and such.

Small walnut boards cut artfully would make nice bases for sculptural work. It also carves very nicely.
   - guru - Tuesday, 12/01/09 11:22:20 EST

Jock, a reamer will folow the pilot hole. In the aplication You mentioned, if the spindle is not on the pilot hole C/L the reamed hole will not be square to the plate. Making a jig? Time IS money, how many of these parts do You need?
   - Dave Boyer - Tuesday, 12/01/09 22:09:03 EST

Nip, the drill press to lathe setup is do-able, I saw an article on Popular Mechanics or Popular Science years back when somone did it. It did look a bit clumsy, but I guess You get used to it.
   - Dave Boyer - Tuesday, 12/01/09 22:12:44 EST

Dave, It would be a low production machine part. While some shops invest a LOT in jigs those of us that know how on the cheap can make this one in a couple hours.

Drill press to lathe. . the only parts missing are the stationary center (in the table) and the tool rest.

The trick IS you want a drill press with a Morse taper spindle that will accept standard wood drive centers. One the tail end a live center can usually be taken off its shank and attached to anything you want.

Turning in the vertical IS a bit odd when you are used to horizontal. . . Flip the drill press over? AH that is what a ShopSmith is all about.
   - guru - Tuesday, 12/01/09 23:26:57 EST

Some woods that would probably make good hammer handles....ash, black locust, persimmon.....before modern clubs, persimmon was used for making golf clubs. Black locust is known for strength, reisitance to rot ( popular for making fence posts ).
   Mike T. - Wednesday, 12/02/09 09:37:57 EST

I'm new to Blacksmithing, just getting started. Looking for ways to finish a project of mild steel to be hung outdoors. Would rather not paint it. Any tips would be helpful.
   Grumpea - Wednesday, 12/02/09 14:01:50 EST

Grumpea---Where you at? Here in NM UV and heat is the biggest problem, where Captn Atli lives salt and wet is a problem.

Only suggestion I can make that would cover both places wold be to make it from stainless and passivate the surface afterwards.

   Thomas P - Wednesday, 12/02/09 15:07:40 EST

I'm in the Northwest, but some of what I'm making will go to Colorado. Just trying to stop the rust if I can.
   Grumpea - Wednesday, 12/02/09 15:45:35 EST

If you don't paint properly (zinc, neutral primer, top coat) it will rust. Cleaning beforehand is absolutely necessary. In painting cleanliness truly IS next to Godliness.

In arid environments you get slow rust but rust nonetheless.

If you want a "natural" finish then it is rust, unto dust.

Hollywood can make wood an plaster look like chrome and wrought iron. . . so why can't a blacksmith make his wrought iron LOOK like wrought iron?

PAINT does not hide surface texture unless it is improperly applied (mutiple coats of thickened paint with a dirty brush. . .). Multiple coats properly sprayed on will not change the textural appearance but it CAN enhance it.

Learning to apply a good finish that enhances the work is as important as the work itself. The COST of a proper paint job CAN be half the job. In many cases it is cheaper to sub out the work to a painter who also does the cleaning via sandblasting.

   - guru - Wednesday, 12/02/09 16:00:41 EST

dear Guru I am a 16 year old guy who really wants to DIVE into blacksmithing. I have great experience with the stock removal method but I also want the certain freedom that you get with black smithing. Whats my probleam you ask I dont have a formidable forge.I have made various kinds and was not pleased with the outcome. I want a awesome propane forge that will prefom like a champ somthing great for knife making thats what I do I make knives. I need it for heat treating my stock removal knives and also making black smithed knives...thanks for you're time Collin
   Collin - Wednesday, 12/02/09 17:19:50 EST

You might consider browning the metal for protection against corrosion. Brownells would probably have the bottles of browning solution with instructions. My understanding is that during the Civil War, guns were browned by the following process ( I think )....mix steel wool with nitric acid until the acid was completely saturated, then rub the brown onto the metal ie.-gun barrel. Then let a layer of rust build up on the metal, then rub the rust off and oil all over.
   Mike T. - Wednesday, 12/02/09 19:17:54 EST

I made my propane forge out of 8* steel pipe, scrap is better if you can find it, new 8* steel pipe runs 11-12 dollars a foot. I bought 2 feet( they cut it in even feet )
then I shortened it to 18* After lining with inswool, satanite, and ITC, the 8* was reduced to little over 4*. I ordered a single venturi burner kit from Larry Zoeller, about 125.00, however I replaced the mig tip with a steel plug and drilled a 1/16* hole in it, then added a blower. It burns rich and will weld. My belief is that a venturi burner will not get up to welding heat unless you get the expensive kind ie.-approved by NASA and all that. Guru can help you a lot and has supplies in his store to provide much of what you need. Good luck Collin. :)
   Mike T. - Wednesday, 12/02/09 19:39:32 EST

Ultimate Gas Forge:

Well, I have seen many designs and they all tend to work about the same, but some not as good as others. The best all get to about the same heat but have features that make them more convenient than others.

The two best IMHO were for different purposes but could have had the variations in ONE forge. Then the third is mine which had considerable expense applied to an automatic control that could be used with a temperature control.

The first is a C shape forge (like some open farriers forges. Except this one started life as having a long side door and end ports. Then the corners were cut out so that long work could be put in from the side and extend out the two end ports. This is for decorative iron such as has an end that will not pass through the forge or en ports. The owner has since built a purpose built forge based on the same idea but I have not seen it.

The second (two) were bladesmiths tunnel type forges with air curtains on the ends. The air curtains were powered by excess fan air on one forge and an independent blower on the other. The nozzles on the air curtains were old vacuum cleaner nozzels facing upwards. The air curtains let you put your face right into the forge without fear of getting blasted by "dragon's breath". Great idea! If you want doors you need to use sliding types with the air curtain beyond the door thickness. I would use 1" thick doors and a slot in the extended hearth for the air curtain.

These forge designs are not mutually exclusive but they would be complicated to combine.

I would go with the air curtain tunnel forge as a bladesmith OR for feeding billets to a power hammer. OF COURSE this is a blown forge.

I start my designs based on brick sizes. Floors should be hard refractory brick, either full or half thick. A flat half brick floor should have 1" fiber refractory board under it (expensive) or another layer of brick which is not very good insulation. I like to build on top of 1" x 3/16" bar grating. This lets the floor breathe and requires a heat shield below it if ANY equipment is below the floor. The air curtain can blow through the bar grate but must pass through the heat shield or be above it. There should be a trash clean out door on the end of the air curtain tube as scale, small bits and debris is going to fall in.

The forge shell for a tunnel forge should be a seperate unit that lifts off. A couple tabs and small bolts can hold it in place. Unlike the floor it can be light weight construction using kaowool blanket. Our future forges will use folded strips of blanket sewn with inconell wire (looks like accordion fold but is actually strips. The advantage to this construction is that the "sewn" wires can have anchor loops attached that can be tired to a supporting frame (expanded metal) to make a flat roof. It is also stronger and more damage resistant than flat laid blanket. About 3" is the minimum for this process. Back end "doors" can be sliding half thick brick but the front door should be a counterbalanced vertical moving type. Due to the air curtain I would use either board or half thick brick in a steel frame. A notch in the shell would insure venting when or if the doors are closed.

Blower burners do not need an orifice. This just complicates things. But they do need a needle valve and a blower control.

To add automatic controls gets complicated. This requires ignition, a gas rated solenoid valve, relays and some type of control. Temperature control is expensive and thermocouples do not handle maximum forge temperatures well. They are more suitable for heat treating and you may want to retract the thermocouple when using forging heats.

While temperature controls DO have low power switching outputs I always use them to power an external ice-cube relay to prevent anything from happening to the control. These little relays have 3 or 4 NC/NO sets of contacts.

The last control I built used on and off delay timers to create dwell on, dwell off. On my big forge I use this of "economy" mode which keeps the forge fairly hot without running full blast. However, the repeated reigniting of the forge can get nerve racking. Same with on/off temperature controls. See Omega.com for control gizmos.

Forge can be heavy as well as heavy duty OR light weight and portable. The can be built cheap OR expensive. What is ultimate to you may not be to someone else.

Furnaces for burn out and heat treating are so much different than a forge that I would build them as seperate tools and not try to make ONE do everything.

AND While I am in no way rich or well off, when I build equipment I tend to pull out all the stops. Your budget and my budget may not be the same.

Above ALL. Gas forges are NOT one size fits all. Big forges use lots of gas no matter what the size of the work. Small forges don't use much gas but are limited to what will fit as well as weight of piece to be heated.
   - guru - Wednesday, 12/02/09 20:12:31 EST

A properly built venturi forge does not have to be some esoteric thing to get to welding temp. I've done it in my forge and it's burners are just made from plumbing parts with a hole drilled in it---no special orifice!

OTOH a blown burner is easier to get to welding temp as you can pretty much just keep increasing the air and fuel until you get there. I control the fuel on my blown forge with a regulator and the air with a sliding choke and so can run it anywhere from very reducing to very oxidizing (makes a neat surface for dragons after you club off the scale)

   Thomas P - Wednesday, 12/02/09 20:16:08 EST

My venturi forge has an additonal gas line, controlled by a needle valve, that bleeds extra gas into the burner air intake. The basic burner is set to run somewhat oxidizing; I can add extra gas to make an atmosphere as reducing as I want.

Eliminating the orifice sure does make a forge more economical to operate. "Orifice" just means opening -- without one the gas stays in the tube!

Just had to get that off my chest. Of course, people usually use "orifice" to mean a carefully sized hole that lets gas into a burner at the correct velocity to induct the desired amount of air. With a blown burner, the gas velocity doesn't matter, so you can just let it flow out of the open end of a tube.
   Mike BR - Wednesday, 12/02/09 21:08:36 EST

Guru and Thomas,

Thank you so very much for the resources! I will check out that Web site, and Thomas, I'll be in touch about the armoUr and swords,and medieval blacksmithing/swordsmithing!
   Carrole - Wednesday, 12/02/09 21:30:19 EST

Thank you for your input, especially Omega.com
Mike BR I think you have a good system, and as the Guru states I am limited by money. I have to build up my inventory a little at a time, but I get there. Mike BR
could you make a diagram of your burner and include the additional gas line, needle valve and all ? I have seen your posts before where you describe this method.
   Mike T. - Thursday, 12/03/09 02:47:31 EST

It just dawned on me when you were talking about air curtains, I thought you were talking about placing firebrick etc. at the mouth of the forge. I see now what you are talking about. I need another blower to create the air curtain, or if a powerful enough blower is incorporated, a splitter could divert part of the air to the mouth.
   Mike T. - Thursday, 12/03/09 02:56:07 EST

Right. From an operating stand point a seperate blower would be best so that partially blocking the "curtain" does not change the burner air flow.

The air curtain just blows UP from a slot just in front of the forge opening. The ones I saw used a vacuum cleaner nozzle but I would make my own from sheet metal and avoid aluminum or zinc parts that close to the forge heat. It really IS nice to be able to stand in front of the forge without getting blasted by the dragon's breath or losing eyebrows. . .
   - guru - Thursday, 12/03/09 09:13:46 EST

Carrole, I'm not on-line as much on weekends as I'm out in the shop more; but I'll check my mail at least daily.

I was just asked to do a forging demo for a "Bethlehem" set up this weekend. So out with the single action bellows and a mud and rock forge. Got a few tools that are spot on for Roman ones depicted on stone carvings and will be using charcoal for the fuel. Steve Parker made me a *GREAT* stump anvil that matches examples ranging from one in the Roman museum in Bath to one in the Camino Real museum here in NM to one used in the French and Indian war here in America. I'm going to have to punt with my simple early medieval tunics though as they don't have any "forge safe" clothing for Y0K.

   Thomas P - Thursday, 12/03/09 11:20:19 EST

Had a strange dream last night. I was hanging out with the girl I had a crush on in elementary school. She was the cute little red haired girl, in the dream she was still young. Her name was Cevia and she had an older brother named Samuel. I haven't seen nor spoken to this girl since high school. No doubt she has probably gotten married and had kids. For sure entirely would be the fact that if she did get married she would have given up her maiden name.... Yellin. Yep folks, that's right... our very own Nippulini went to school with the granddaughter of the great blacksmith Samuel Yellin. When I first got into smithing I saw the name and thought nothing of it. Then I remembered a thing about Jewish heritage... we don't name our children after the living, we honor the dead with the tribute of name. Samuel (her older brother) is named after the blacksmith. WOW. So, should I look her up? And if so, how long should I wait before asking to see if I can get my hands on her goodies (and by goodies I mean possible inherited tools).
   - Nippulini - Thursday, 12/03/09 12:42:58 EST

Don't wait at all Nipp, when/if you make contact let her know the reason your reconnecting is because you finally clued in about her last name. Not being upfront about it seems sort of a sideways way to go about things to me.
   JimG - Thursday, 12/03/09 14:01:29 EST

"Forge Safe Clothing"
Thomas, wouldn't that be the leather mini skirt over a loin cloth, roman sandles and, bare chested??( incert appropriate imodicon here)
You could probably get away with some natural cotton cloth worn poncho style and gatherd at the waist and maybe allowed to extend to mid thigh to cover a loin cloth for modisty.
   - merl - Thursday, 12/03/09 14:57:36 EST

It's snowing; I have this odd quirk about not forging in the nude when it's snowing. Funny I know; but that's just the way I am.

   Thomas P - Thursday, 12/03/09 15:36:00 EST

Mike T,

The Guru actually once drew and posted a diagram of my burner (or actually the way I *wish* I'd built my burner), but the archives search I tried didn't turn it up.

I don't think I can post a drawing here -- and I'm a lousy draftsman anyway, but maybe I can describe it well enough to be helpful. My basic burner is the original Reil design -- there's a diagram of that here: http://www.abana.org/ronreil/burner.gif.

In the Reil design, there's a pipe reducer at the top of the burner, with a 1/8" pipe nipple running across the top of that. The orifice, of course, is in the middle of the nipple pointing down into the reducer. The propane feeds into the pipe nipple from one end. On my forge, there's a shutoff valve on that end, which connects to a hose leading from the regulator.

Reil's diagarm shows a pipe cap on the other end of the nipple (and that's the way I built mine originally). I just removed the pipe cap and installed a needle valve in its place. The outlet side of the needle valve is connected to a piece of 1/4" soft copper tubing. The tubing is bent in a "U" so it goes up and then comes vertically down into the pipe reducer. The end of the tubing is open, and extends maybe 1/4" into the mouth of the reducer. That's all there is to it.

There other, and probably better, ways to construct this. It is helpful, though, to make the burner so that the added needle valve sees the same gas pressure as the main orifice does. In other words, it should be downstream of the regulator, any shut off valve, and anything else you use to control the gas flow to the burner. That way, you don't need to readjust the added needle valve every time you turn the burner up or down.

Thomas -- I *only* forge nude when it's snowing -- in Havana.
   Mike BR - Thursday, 12/03/09 18:25:07 EST

Guru and Mike BR,
Thank you for the input and information. I don't take added knowledge lightly. I make copies and keep them for reference. Mike BR I will look up the Reil burner and use your info for adaptations.
   Mike T. - Thursday, 12/03/09 19:15:28 EST

Nip are you Jewish ?
That reminds me of a joke. There was an airliner flying along and all of a sudden it hit some turbulence, the plane was rocked back and forth and the passengers began praying. There was a Rabbi on the plane and he said a prayer....OHH dear God if you let this plane land safely I will give you 10,00.00. After a while the turbulence stopped and the plane landed safely. There was a protestant preacher who approached the Rabbi and he said, I heard the oath you made to God, I think that was a wonderful gesture. Then the Rabbi said, " Well, I tell you what I changed my mind and made a better deal with God. I said OHH Lord, I will throw all of my money up in the air, whatever stays in the air I will give to you, whatever falls to the floor, I will keep. :)
   Mike T. - Thursday, 12/03/09 19:28:58 EST

It snowed here today as well. I've been waiting all summer for it to snow so I can get started on a complete rebuild of an outside wall on one of my buildings.
I'm one of those people that needs the iminent threat of winter to find the proper motivation for most major tasks.
Besides, if your afraid of a little snow while you work in historicly correct "garb" then you must not have a big enough fire, me thinks...
   - merl - Thursday, 12/03/09 21:06:05 EST

I am afraid you are much too late on getting any of Yellin's tools. They were sold off and then some anvils were saved and taken to The Renzetti shop that has been sold off.
   - Tool - Friday, 12/04/09 00:29:48 EST

Mike, yes I am Jewish, along with a few other Hebrew smiths here. That joke reminded me of another joke (also on an airplane and less stereotypical).

A rabbi is on a plane and gets seated next to a big tough looking Arab sheik. Halfway through the flight the sheik falls asleep, trapping the rabbi between the window seat and himself. The rabbi gets terribly airsick and has to vomit. Seeing as the sheik has blocked his escape, the rabbi had no other choice but to spew all over the sheiks beautiful white garb. A little while later the sheik wakes up and sees the horrible mess on his chest. The rabbi turns to the sheik and says "There, you feel better now?"
   - Nippulini - Friday, 12/04/09 08:14:52 EST

Nip is no more Jewish than I am! The big news story is that he went to school, not the girls who were there with him.

BTW I sometimes dream about one particular girl with whom I went to school............
   philip in china - Friday, 12/04/09 09:13:48 EST

I have a good friend that is Jewish, we fish, hunt and drink together. He calls me mikey
The last joke......ha ha ha that was a good one !!!!!

   Mike T. - Friday, 12/04/09 09:19:26 EST

Some of my best goys are friends.

It's a yoke, son.
   Frank Turley - Friday, 12/04/09 10:23:31 EST

I'm VERY uncomfortable with the religious jokes....We all had our laughs,now let's get back to forging..
   - arthur - Friday, 12/04/09 11:38:39 EST

I too am VERY uncomfortable with the ethnic and religous jokes. Make fun of how I look or my anvil, but not other folks who have suffered.
   - Alpon - Friday, 12/04/09 13:07:58 EST

A blacksmith, a carpenter and a potter walk into a bar...

   Bruce Blackistone (Atli) - Friday, 12/04/09 13:56:18 EST

"A blacksmith, a carpenter and a potter walk into a bar..."

The bartender says "Is this some kind of joke!?"
   Dave Leppo - Friday, 12/04/09 14:17:08 EST

So, two strings go into a bar and order beer. The bartender says " Get outta here, we don't serve strings"! They go outside and one says "I just gotta have a beer". So he ties himself up and frizzies the end and goes back in. The bartender says "Hey, aren't you one of them strings"? "No" says he "I'm a frayed knot"!
   - grant - Friday, 12/04/09 14:39:18 EST

"Walks into a bar" jokes continue at the Hammer-In...
   Bruce Blackistone (Atli) - Friday, 12/04/09 15:39:44 EST

Mike T. are you Christian?
   JimG - Friday, 12/04/09 15:42:07 EST

Alpon, If you make fun of a Southerner's (US) dog, pickup truck OR anvil you will will be in a fight. Call his wife anything you want but don't disparage that flea bit, slobberying, starved hound dog cause THOSE are fighting words.

Please follow Bruce to the Hammer-In
   - guru - Friday, 12/04/09 15:52:21 EST

Yes I am Christian, I believe we can be comfortable whith each others religion, ethnicity etc. We don't have to be stuffshirts. Jesus would want us to have a good laugh. He gave us life to enjoy and be happy. Jokes about my religion are very acceptable, just know the limits and boundaries.
   Mike T. - Friday, 12/04/09 17:52:46 EST


That is a good joke. I can't wait to tell my daughter.

Mike :)
   Mike T. - Friday, 12/04/09 17:56:55 EST

Mike T....
I find your sense of humor offensive
Your right, there are limits and boundaries...You crossed them.
   - arthur - Friday, 12/04/09 18:23:07 EST


I apologize if I offended anyone, and ask for your forgiveness. I will get back to the topic of blacksmithing.
Sorry for getting off subject.
   Mike T. - Friday, 12/04/09 20:17:55 EST


What the HELL are you talking about??? I am offended by the Racist garbage on this site. I said it was ok to make fun of how I look or my anvil, but not people who have suffered. Seriously how is that fighting words?? I made no offensive comments to anyone.

I have captured this commentary and will send it to the federal authorities for violation of the IPP laws. Since I was accused for something I have not done. This site can be shut down.
   - Alpon - Friday, 12/04/09 23:34:00 EST

Let me point out the word "I" refers to me Alpon. I am dumb founded intelligent people on this site do not know I is referring to self. Really???????

Why would I pick on Southern folks or wives etc??? I am totally confused???
   - Alpon - Friday, 12/04/09 23:39:47 EST


I believe you misread my post. Then wrote a post that was not congruent with my message.

We are all people, have different color skin, ethnicity, race, genders, sexual preferences and faiths. We are all human beings. Some people are good natured and some are bad in every race. Many of us including myself have experience racism. It is just wrong and we should all treat one another well. Yes, I was offended with others by the racist jokes even though I believe those people meant no harm.

I am disturbed by a comment you made about not picking on Southerners. I noticed you didn't mention Northern, Eastern or Western people. I see the super implication in that comment. We are all Americans and geographical local means nothing. People are mobile and move all the time. I feel you didn't mean intentionally, but on a subconsious level. See how that wrongful thinking creeps in and becomes part of us. The same thing happens with those rascist jokes.

Anyway I am not turning this site in or making it an issue. I spoke my peace and know you are all good people.
   - Alpon - Saturday, 12/05/09 00:30:35 EST

Alpon, SLOW down. Its a JOKE.

Maybe I should have said Red-Neck. Say anything you want about a Red-Neck's wife but NEVER talk bad about his dog or pickup truck. . . (or anvil).

   - guru - Saturday, 12/05/09 01:00:58 EST

Hi Guru
Sorry, I guess I am slow on the uptake tonight. Been a rough day. Spent to much time in the Blacksmith shop.
   - Alpon - Saturday, 12/05/09 01:12:40 EST

I get the joke now...LOL. You can delete my posts if you desire.
   - Alpon - Saturday, 12/05/09 01:14:53 EST

Guru, may you continue to have the patience of Job. Goodnight and God bless.
   - Plato - Saturday, 12/05/09 01:21:09 EST

Guru, may you continue to have the patience of Job. Goodnight and God bless.
   - Plato - Saturday, 12/05/09 01:22:31 EST


I read scarey article in The Hammer's Blow the other day. It is "Beware Of Brake Cleaner" by Brew Dude. The summer issue Vol 17, #3 page 16. It is about the dangers of phosgene gas. One little puff of smoke inhaled can be fatal. It explains the dangers in using as a metal cleaner and then welding. The excessive heat and argon gas will produce the corrosive phosegene gas. There is no antidote for the phosgene gas poisoning. If you survive you get chronic bronchitis or emphysema. This is just as serious as metal fume fever from zinc poisoning. This you only need one puff of smoke to be fatal!!
   - Alpon - Saturday, 12/05/09 01:26:21 EST

Phosgene gas... isn't that redneck nitrous oxide?
   - Nippulini - Saturday, 12/05/09 07:55:24 EST


I'm afraid it's no laughing matter.
   Mike BR - Saturday, 12/05/09 08:08:44 EST

Brake cleaner and Phosgene.
Not all compositions of brake cleaner will react in this way. A good reason to READ the labels, and to request the MSDS and READ it as well.
These are very easy to obtain now. I have just been thru the process of getting current MSDS for about 400 materials. Not that hard.
Harder is understanding the MSDS since the units can be anything the writer cares to use, and the langauge can be kindergarten or Phd chemistry proffesor level.

I read these daily, and if you need a MSDS explained just post.
   ptree - Saturday, 12/05/09 08:26:55 EST

MSDS.. isn't that what my wife goes through once a month?
   - Nippulini - Saturday, 12/05/09 08:39:53 EST

Nip, Nip, Nip You make me laugh. It ain't PC, but you do make me laugh!

On another note, I just went to an auction last week that included all kinds of really old machines, including lathes, milling machines, wood planer, etc.,etc. 90% of it was sold for scrap. Really sad to see all these wonderful machines headed down that road. I was able to buy a Bradley power hammer, and another person bought a Hawkeye power hammer that will go to a living museum. The Bradley will eventually be put to work in my shop (with a lot of advice from my friends here). I wanted very much to buy more of the machines at the auction, but space, time and money are all limiting factors.
   Dave F - Saturday, 12/05/09 10:13:44 EST

Dave, When they are ALL gone it will become the "in" thing to establish industrial museums. "Yes son, We really used to MAKE things in the consumer states of America." - I see a cartoon in that. . .

MSDS: We provide them on-line for the few products we handle that require them AND send a copy of the packaging warning with all cut kaowool which outlines the issues and refers one to the full MSDS. I recently converted old graphic scan MSDS to PDF's as that it the defacto standard for most industry now. While you are required to have a book with printed copies the PDF's make it easy to store and print them as needed.
   - guru - Saturday, 12/05/09 10:48:28 EST

What do you think about the quality of the Old World Anvil Co.? I beleive that all the anvils are made by the same people.
   - Jacob Lockhart - Saturday, 12/05/09 12:04:13 EST

Guru, what is the name of your store?
   Carver Jake - Saturday, 12/05/09 12:15:18 EST


Old World Anvils:

Some people like them and some do not. They are a good anvil although not professional grade. They are soft and missed hammer blows will dent them. They have a 44 Rockwell. I had one that came with a dip in the face that was about 2" wide, 4" long and dime thickness deep. The soft faces help one learn hammer control and keep shards of edges from breaking off and flying at you.

The people at Old World Anvils are good to deal with. They would have replaced the anvil with the problem for me. I didn't bother as it wasn't a major crisis.

They are affordable and this can be very important to people with smaller bugets. The old adage you get what you pay for. I give them an 85% satisfactory rate. My opinion only.

They have good ring and rebound. Good mass in the waist.
   - Alpon - Saturday, 12/05/09 13:19:58 EST


The same Czech foundry makes all the cast steel anvils. Those are the ones I am referring too. They recently started carrying a drop forged anvil and I do not know who makes them or the quality. I suspect they are better than the cast steel ones.
   - Alpon - Saturday, 12/05/09 13:22:30 EST

The face dip actually made a nice area to straighten items etc.
   - Alpon - Saturday, 12/05/09 14:15:43 EST

Phosphegne gas: if i am correct phospegne gas was used in ww1 as a chemical weapon. i think that my great grandpa may have know a few people who got gassed with it. i heard some nasty stories about it too.
   bigfoot - Saturday, 12/05/09 14:23:55 EST

"Czech Foundries" Nope. . . there are more than one and it has changed a number of times. One stopped because they were too busy with better work, another was dropped due to poor quality and so on. . . At least this has been the case with EuroAnvils. There are also different agents selling them in Europe as well as handling the sales to the US.

Who is standing behind the product is what is important in this case. Due to quality issues and whole loads being returned or refused I would not trust fly by night dealers. I DO know that some reject EuroAnvils have been sold but at reduced prices with full disclosure of the flaws.

The manufacturer's web site for the Turkish anvils says cast and then forged alternately in several paragraphs. Take your pick. . .
   - guru - Saturday, 12/05/09 14:54:32 EST

Jake, See the "store" link at the top of every page. . .

The files in the current store are not those in the new cart which has been delayed in launching. Our new "more secure" server was hacked and had to be scraped. So we are starting over again.
   - guru - Saturday, 12/05/09 14:57:16 EST

Diamondback 2 burner metalsmith forge? Anyone with experience with this specific forge? I am planning a gas forge purchase and this one interested me. I wonder if it could reach welding temperatures with all the doors opened and at what gas pressure is it necessary to run at to reach a welding temp within a reasonable time. Has anyone had experience with two burner Diamondback forges? I know this might have been covered in previous postings, but some of my questions have not been answered. Thanks.
   David - Saturday, 12/05/09 15:42:27 EST

I have e-mailed a couple of companies concerning calcium floride ( fluorspar ) and have't received an answer as of yet. I know some chemical companies only want to sell products in bulk quantities. I need some for the damascus I want to make..........help.
Yes, I am a redneck and proud of it. My nephew sent me a bird from South America. He called and ask me if I received the bird. I said," Yes, it was delicious." He said ," You don't mean to tell me you ate it ?, that bird could speak two languages. I said," Well then, he should have said something !!
   Mike T. - Saturday, 12/05/09 16:59:22 EST

From memory phosgene is produced when fumes from carbon tetrachloride contact a flame. So if you inhale carbon tet through a cigarette you are actually inhaling phosgene. The surgeon general would be even less happy about that. Yes phosgene was a chemical weapon used in WW1 and is about as nasty as substances come.

Re. Czech foundries I know the guy who used to get euros cast changed foundries due to quality issues. He had some of the smaller size made at the new foundry and the photos looked OK but they had been painted and, of course, you really can't tell from a photo of an anvil what it is like. I was looking at them with a view to getting maybe a couple for my shop in Europe. The problem was that for an anvil made in eastern europe they simply weren't cheap enough! Buying would have been a risk and whilst a Vaughans (watch the spelling) is quite a bit more expensive it would have been of known quality. Since then I am now up to 5 top quality cast steel anvils here, together with all the other equipment, so what I shall do is actually just ship a part container load with everything to the place in Europe when eventually I finish here.
   philip in china - Saturday, 12/05/09 19:11:37 EST

Davis, 99.9+% of all questions asked here, that can be answered, get answered. If you didn't see it you probably did not check back soon enough.

Diamondback is one of the newer brands on the market. I have never seen one in operation and I visit a LOT of shops.

Some of these questions should be asked of the manufacturer.

Most gas forges require some of the doors and ports to be closed to reach welding heat. I doubt if any will weld with all the doors fully open.

"Welding Temperature" varies by as much as 200 degrees Fahrenheit with high carbon steel being the lowest temperature to weld and wrought and mild steel the highest. Process and conditions also make a difference lowering the temperature as much as another 200 degrees.

The pressure some forges operate at (less than 10 PSI) is hard to measure accurately. Most common gauges that have any age on them are out of range of the working temperature. Pressure is also relative. A forge with a large injection orifice can run at less than 1 PSI while a forge with a very small orifice may run at 25 PSI and both forges use the same amount of gas. What you should be asking is how much gas the forge uses per hour. This is often equivalent to the unit's BTU rating.

While no blacksmith forge manufacturer that I know does it, the forge should be rated in mass per hour heated to temperature. You want to know how many pounds of steel can be heated per hour OR the maximum amount of steel that should be put in the forge at any one time.

   - guru - Saturday, 12/05/09 19:17:43 EST

I stand corrected as to number of foundries that make Czech anvils as Guru points out. I seem to recall switching of foundries more than once now. Braco was or is one of the foundries.

I have also found redish body fill in the waist and base of these anvils upon removing paint. It was just to enhance the physical appearnace of anvil from casting inclusions. The inclusions appear to have not been anything to affect performance of anvil due to location. However, I could not see inside of anvil near working surfaces.
   - Alpon - Saturday, 12/05/09 22:30:05 EST

As Guru mentions it is important who the dealer is. Old World Anvils and Blacksmith Supply(Euro Anvils) will stand by the product and be happy to replace. Other dealers are not readly know and if offer lower prices may be suspect to non-warrenty.
   - Alpon - Saturday, 12/05/09 22:32:44 EST

Branco Czech Anvil Exporter

   - Alpon - Saturday, 12/05/09 22:40:38 EST

Phosgene: From what I remember, it is the chlorine that is the culprit when exposed to high temperature, wether it be a clorinated hydrocarbon like some brake cleaners or carbon tet or a clorinated flourocarbon like older refrigerants [Freon]. Keep this in mind if You ever use a halide torch to find refrigerant leaks.
   - Dave Boyer - Saturday, 12/05/09 23:23:48 EST

The one item I remember related to phosgene gas production is 1-1-1 triclorethane - vapors from it would be transformed to phosgene around the arc from an electric arc furnace. In the 80's we'd use trichlor to clean black iron pipe and pipe fittings for oxygen service when we absolutely had to, such as when the customer hadn't bought the degreased/pickled pipe and fittings we'd specified and we absolutely had to get a system up and running. Funny, a lot of those customers happened to be steel mills with EAF's which is where we were piping the oxygen to, so it could be used in processing. I suspect the other good chlorinated solvents would act the same.
   - Gavainh - Saturday, 12/05/09 23:40:37 EST

GURU, MSDS are not required to be held in paper form, at least by the Federal OSHA, and KY which is a Primacy State also does not require Paper. What is required is access by every employee, and in a timely manner. Many services will now store and maintain MSDS online in a E-binder that contains only the MSDS for your company. Often these services will have a system to update and maintain the MSDS. They also often have a 1-800 phone, manned 24 hours and will read the MSDS to you if the internet is down to maintain the "Access" that is required.
For a company with 500 or so active MSDS, and a large layout the Internet option, access by every computer in the plant for a read only/Print only this is a Safety guys dream. No more lost pages, lost MSDS, Paging thru huge binders etc.
I am installing just such a system, and have the MSDS in the e-binder, and now await a few detail to rollout to the floor.
   ptree - Sunday, 12/06/09 08:17:40 EST

Chemical info. For all. Search NIOSH, Pocket book of hazardous Chemicals. Bookmark on your computer. This is a factual, easy to read listing of hazardous chemicals, the OSHA set and other Authority set exposure limits, and PPE needed.
I use it almost daily
   ptree - Sunday, 12/06/09 08:19:47 EST

Gavainh. I remember several orders of forged steel fitting that were returned for Oxygen service, that had been ordered from stock, and someone noticed before install. I also have seen some ugly examples of ones that were installed and the O2 turned on.

WEmade valves and fittings for Oxygen service, Chlorine service, cryogenic service,phosgene service, and the ones that really worried me, for Catagory R service.
Catagory R service "For service with a media, that will cause permanent injury, or death from exposure, even with imediate first aid"
   ptree - Sunday, 12/06/09 08:23:37 EST

Thanks Guru for the information: I wanted the opinions of people who had worked with the diamondback forges, as the manufacturers have bias opinions. There's nothing like experience to verify claims and as most of us know, claims are easy to make.
   David - Sunday, 12/06/09 11:30:13 EST

A question on "Tubing, Round, Mechanical" aka "CDS" and "DOM"
I have always assumed (my bad) that both these, which the local steel yard groups together as "DOM" are seemless. Which is nice for forging. Recently I got sold some DOM remains and one (which measures 1 5/16 x .175 (.188?) has a nice weld seam down its length. I assume this is a mis filed rem. Ah, the question...are both CDS and DOM really seamless. I ask only to know, not to try and ding the steelyard. Thanks in advance
   Tim in Orygun - Sunday, 12/06/09 12:23:29 EST

Tim, I do not know "CDS" but DOM means Drawn Over Mandrel. Basically this is forged tubing with NO seams.

No-cast, seemless is made two ways. One is deep punched and drawn over the punch/madrel. The length is limited by the mandrel and force. The other is punched and (rotary) forged, the hole remaining. The ID comes out rather rough. As a blacksmith you can do either yourself to a limited extent.

Ever wonder how they make flux core wire and roll solder with 5 little holes filled with flux? You start with a short billet with the hole or holes, fill them, cap the ends and start forging, drawing, rolling. . . Until the short fat piece is very long.
   - guru - Sunday, 12/06/09 13:27:58 EST

Forges, David, If you ask the manufacturer about heat with ALL the doors/ports wide open he will probably be honest with you. Same with fuel pressure. But THAT does not tell you anything. What you want to know is fuel consumption. Asking the wrong questions gets the wrong answers.
   - guru - Sunday, 12/06/09 13:32:00 EST

Google seems to say that "CDS" is "cold drawn seamless." When I ordered tubing for a bicycle project years ago, DOM tubing was quite a bit cheaper than seamless. I figured it was welded, then drawn on a mandrel to forge the weld flat. Even if that's true, a visible seam probably means you're not getting your money's worth.
   Mike BR - Sunday, 12/06/09 16:05:55 EST

DOM is electric welded and then drawn over a mandrel. Yes CDS is seamless tubing that has been cold finished.
   - grant - Sunday, 12/06/09 16:12:10 EST

DOM does mean drawn over mandrel but it does not imply HOW the tube was made: both ERW welded and seamless tubing can be DOM. The Mannessmann piercing method is the most common way to make seamless pipe and it starts by compression rolling a hot round billet. The hole opens of its own accord, no punching involved. It is guided by a piercing mandrel and then stretch reduced or sized as needed. Next best thing to PFM.....
   quenchcrack - Sunday, 12/06/09 16:47:25 EST

From the Steel Tube Institute: http://www.steeltubeinstitute.org/dom.htm

“Drawn Over Mandrel (DOM) refers to high-strength, electrically-welded tubing that has been further processed by cold drawing through dies and over mandrels to improve its uniformity, mechanical properties and surface finish”. 
   - grant - Sunday, 12/06/09 16:55:25 EST

Here is a little animation about how they make the DOM tubing. I went looking because I have always wondered how they do it.
   - JNewman - Sunday, 12/06/09 16:59:52 EST

Quenchcrack: Wouldn't "Cold Drawn Seamless" be a pretty similar result to DOM. Just never seen seamless designated DOM. Just because they "can" doesn't mean they do.
   - grant - Sunday, 12/06/09 17:25:12 EST

Cold drawing is usually drawing through a die to improve OD tolerances. DOM draws through a die with a mandrel inside to improve OD and Wall thickness tolerances. I worked at Lone Star Steel which had 11 draw benches, from a few thousand pounds up to a million pounds of draw. Seamless has a lot of wall variation and it can be improved with DOM. ERW has very good dimensional tolerances but it can be sink drawn to increase wall thickness or just DOM to make it uniform and a bit smaller.
   quenchcrack - Sunday, 12/06/09 18:53:34 EST

hello my name is cole turner i am an apprentice farrier i shoe horses i am not a blacksmith but i do use a forge everyday and im getting more experienced with my forging skills i would just like to no what steel to use and the basic technique of making a sword coz i no damn well its not just a case of shaping it it takes alot of hard work and effort to achieve a task such as this i enjoy making different things (not just shoes!!!!) and after looking through your site i find you to be ignorant as every single day i get asked the same questions when shoeing horses i.e does that hurt them when u burn the shoe on or when u put the nail in but i am always polite and tell people now to get to my point i am 23 and yes it would be very neat to have a sword a big dangerous weopon hanging on my wall but thats not why i wish to make one for me its more like the satisfaction of putting the effort in and getting the results for me no one else just my own pleasure of looking at something and saying yes i done that also not everyone does it to look cool with mates have you not thought perhaps some people may be interested in trades like ours its not an easy thing to do so now i say just think about the trade a little and im off to find a site of someone who may be more helpfull than you
   cole turner - Sunday, 12/06/09 21:00:05 EST

cole maybe you ought to learn how to pattern weld, as that has a fun pattern when done.
   bigfoot - Sunday, 12/06/09 21:53:29 EST

Please use periods. It is difficult to understand and read your post. I guess I am not understanding what you purport we are ignorant of? I think clarification is needed to understand what your are expressing.
   - Alpon - Sunday, 12/06/09 23:03:34 EST

Folks, don't argue with the . . . . . . I get dozens of letters a year about our Sword Making article and most are favorable comments such as. . .

"Could not have said it better" (From smiths that have answered these questions for decades).

"Funniest thing I every read. . ." (From folks with a sense of humor)

"Thanks for pointing me in the right direction." (From those that read far enough to find the Sword Making Resources)

But one letter out of fifty are like the tripe above. They do not read far enough to follow the leads above. They think that by cursing and showing poor use of language that they will prove that they deserve the "secret" that they did not find handed to them.

Sadly, the majority do not take the time to find the resource list that I and others worked very hard to compile, as seen by the 273,000 that have started the article looking for the "secret" to be bestowed upon them and the 33,300 that have gone on to the be enlightened. Even then I suspect the 8:1 ratio applies to those who find the list as well and actually seek out any of the references listed. So out of quarter million only about 4,000 were really interested.

AND, if you have no sense of humor, it is certainly NOT a business one should be in.

Do not argue, do not comment on the post. It deserves no further response.
   - guru - Sunday, 12/06/09 23:13:04 EST

Not commenting on the post above, BUT... I am always poking holes in plots in movies. My wife can't stand it sometimes. Why would tomatoes be in an English towne market in the year 1410? They weren't brought to Europe until the 1500's. Anyway, we were watching LOTR yesterday and I turned to my wife and said "did you know blacksmiths never made swords?". Then I explained pretty much everything in the FAQ.
   - Nippulini - Monday, 12/07/09 09:35:38 EST

In earlier times Blacksmiths probably made as many locks and keys as locksmiths. It was considered an important part of the trade. While shoeing horses became important, shoeing and making shoes were specialties before the Americas were settled by Europeans. It is in the Americas where the frontier blacksmith became the do-all craftsman, making and repairing wagons, shoeing horses and doing every other kind of metal work.

LOTR opens with the "forging of the rings" by CASTING.

Speaking of movies. . The new Star Trek movie had me going until I finally realized that from the opening scene onward the entire story is an altered reality. Change a significant historical event and then you can do anything you want. . .
   - guru - Monday, 12/07/09 10:30:16 EST

Traditions! (As sung by Tavia in Fiddler on the roof)

We occasionally get into "what is traditional". Well, food takes the cake. As you noted the tomato (as well as potatoes, corn and pumpkins among many others) are from the Western Hemisphere. Pizza sauce, spaghetti sauce and salsa all are tomato based. All that "traditional" tomato Italian food is relatively late. And the great Irish potato famine would not have occurred if the Irish had stuck with local foods.

Then there is the Great American Indian horse culture that only developed after the Spanish reintroduced the horse to North America. The native horse (and camel) had both been hunted to extinction for food. . .

One of the more interesting "traditions" is the diamond engagement ring. This "tradition" was created by the diamond cartel, DeBeers in an advertising campaign in order to sell more diamonds. They changed most of the world from where only the very rich bought diamonds to every engaged couple. The NEW push as baby boomers mature is the "anniversary" diamond.

So, traditions are what you want them to be OR make them to be.

   - guru - Monday, 12/07/09 12:20:39 EST

I took my earliest styled forge to a "Bethlehem village" set up. Had a bellows thrall to work the single action bellows blowing into the side of a shallow forge built ontop of a soapstone slab, burning charcoal. I even brought my stump anvil and the hammers and tongs that looked most like the roman examples I have seen.

Cold night but I had a blast and well worth the trouble setting it up rather than using the hand crank blower, bottom blast travel forge.

   Thomas P - Monday, 12/07/09 15:43:18 EST

   Julian Koob - Monday, 12/07/09 17:00:09 EST

Hi, my name is Julian Koob and I recently took up blacksmithing as a school project. For the past few months I've been going to a blacksmith shop to learn techniques and work metal. Recently I've started working on a knife and I am here to ask about how it should be tempered. I would like to know a quenching medium, tempering heat, and how long it should stay at that heat. The knife is 3/4 of an inch by 1/8 of an inch (it's quite thin) and it is "01 steel"

Many thanks,
   Julian Koob - Monday, 12/07/09 17:02:25 EST

Julian, O1 is "oil hardening" but in a thin section it may air quench. To prevent damage while heat treating be sure your oil is quite warm and that the steel is not overheated. The rule is to quench on a "rising heat" That is, without heating too hot then reducing to the correct temperature. You want to heat just TO the hardening point which is non-magnetic and no higher. On small parts it helps to heat a large bar to the needed temperature and then heat the small part on the large.

When you plunge the part in the quenchant it is best to go edge Or end first, never on a side. Then stir the part around until cool enough to touch.

Temper immediately after hardening. A safety temper is to temper to at least 350-400 F. This will reduce the chance of breaking the part in handling and leave it at the maximum hardness. Later you will probably want to temper to almost a blue.

Tempering of thin pieces can also be done on a large block heated to the necessary temperature. If judging temperature by color you will need to polish a spot on the block each time and not overheat. Judging temperature by color on works one way. . UP. You can heat the block on a stove top or in the forge. Once the block is evenly heated place your part on it and watch it change color. If you have a big 3/4" or 1" block it will heat the part to its own temperature in seconds.

Oil for a quenchant can be mineral (baby) oil, peanut oil or ATF (automatic transmission fluid).

Try not to put too much effort into your first blades until you have hardened and tempered them. They will snap right in two if too hard or improperly treated. Experiment, practice.
   - guru - Monday, 12/07/09 18:01:48 EST

Hi Jock
Question- what is the thermal material used in the doors of portable gas forges (farriers).I suspect it is Kaowool but so far unable to obtain a response from the UK suppliers!
   TC - Tuesday, 12/08/09 13:25:56 EST

Tony, If it is soft and fluffy it is Koawool or a competing product. It is often 2" thick which is hard to obtain. We will carry it for cut sales in the future but do not at this time. Multiple layers can be sewn together using Inconell wire. IF the screws or pins that anchor the blanket are close enough to the edge of the door then they will anchor two layers of one inch.
   - guru - Tuesday, 12/08/09 13:42:20 EST

Guru -
I'm a "hobby" blacksmith and am struggling with tenons. I read your article: "One Pass Tenons: Making Pickett or Bradding Tenons on a Lathe". However, from the article, I can not figure out how long a piece of square rod can be. How is it supported in the lathe? I can't picture it in my head. Forgive my lack of experience with a metal lathe.
   Roger - Tuesday, 12/08/09 14:29:03 EST

I came across this Stove a friend had just bought, and I thought it was pretty cool so I offered him his money back and a little boot trade. Now Im trying to figure out how it was suposed to be used. I can't find any reference on the internet for a 170 or 17D Hot Blast Us stove Gatlinburg Tenn. regardless of its condition, I will make good use of it as an outdoor wood stove that will last a hell of a lot longer than those clay Chimeras. so my 40.00 is not wasted. I am thinking it is suposed to be coal fueled, but I have never seen a coal burner so I could be wrong. Knowing nothing about the stove I am guessing that it is suposed to be used to heat metal, and I might be able to use it as a Hobby forge. The fellow I got it from had already had a friend braze the broken hinge on the door, I might try to clean up that wield and make it a bit prettier, but it also has some areas around the cast pieces were they join the body of the stove that need to be filled. and brass would do the job nicely. I don't think disassemble would be wise. as you will see in the pictures the firebrick is pretty cracked , I was thinking that I might be able to coat the inside with some refractory paste. However I am at a complete loss as to the function of the little cone in the top. My wild guess is that there is a missing piece that has broken. perhaps a bell like piece that focuses the heat into the eye so you have a torch on top. but I am unsure of how the main flue would be vented from such a bell. perhaps some sort of vents that created a spiral draft??
so what I would like to use it for is to burn scrap from my shop and possibly to forge or experiment with extracting metal from ore and other hot dangerous frivolous play. you can see the pictures here http://www.arboristsite.com/showthread.php?t=117508
Thank you
   Root - Tuesday, 12/08/09 14:36:21 EST

No that is not something to heat or smelt metals in it is a stove used to warm fairly largish rooms like a train depot waiting room. The place on top is so you can heat your coffeepot faster.

It would make a poor forge or bloomery and a great smithy warming stove.

   Thomas P - Tuesday, 12/08/09 15:42:44 EST


Roger, Hand forging good square tenons is one of those things you have to practice. The skill is in striking the work exactly opposite the corner of the anvil with the edge of the hammer. It helps to use a hammer with a fairly square edge. Often a clapper die is used to finish the round and a monkey tool to square up the shoulder. But a good smith can make a ready to use tenon with hammer and anvil alone.

In most lathes the spindle is hollow. So there is no real length limit as long as the part passes through the spindle. If the part hangs out too far and whips around then it needs to be supported in a stock stand. A V shape (angle iron) works on round stock and a half round (split pipe) work on square.

So, the long part of the bar passes through the spindle, the chuck grips the part near where you are going to machine it and off you go. For single pass tenons the stock cannot hang out much farther than the length to be machined.

For pickets with decorative elements in the middle that won't pass through the spindle OR bent ends it is more complicated. For these you need a special tool called a "box tool" that fits in the spindle and a vise on the carriage. The box tool has a pilot hole and a pair of cutters inside. The part is clamped in the vise with what ever oddities it has on it off in space, then the carriage is fed into the turning box tool. This is very similar to a wood tenoning operation.
   - guru - Tuesday, 12/08/09 16:59:09 EST

TONIGHT : We will be moving to the NEW server. Expect delays and needing to clear your cache maybe more than once.

Posts beyond this point may be lost (no glitches!).
   - guru - Wednesday, 12/09/09 01:33:35 EST

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