WELCOME to the anvilfire Guru's Den - V. 3.0

THIS is a forum for questions and answers about blacksmithing and general metalworking. Ask the Guru any reasonable question and he or one of his helpers will answer your question, find someone that can, OR research the question for you.

This is an archive of posts from November 17 - 24, 2001 on the Guru's Den
[ THE - GURUS | ABOUT THIS PAGE | Getting Started in Blacksmithing ]

Hey there,

I have a few questions about knife-making. I attended a welding class where we welded on titanium and i have a few of the pieces left and was wanting to grind it into a sort of mini-knife of sorts. what kind of abrasives would i use for that?
also, are there any nation-wide companies that will heat-treat stainless steel knife blades once i get them ground?
one more question. what can you tell me about the alloy ATS-34? thank you very much

   Matthew - Saturday, 11/17/01 00:21:19 GMT

I'm new to blacksmithing, I have no tools, and I would like to know if you could give me a list of tools I would need to recreate medieval weapons
my e-mail is jobran at bellatlantic.net
   garry - Saturday, 11/17/01 01:02:49 GMT

Dear Garry;
It is not possible to recreate medieval weapons by e-mail...however it is a much safer method.
   - Pete F - Saturday, 11/17/01 02:05:27 GMT

Garry, Earth, Air, Fire and Water. Smiths are the true alchemists. Knowledge is your most important tool. Start there. When you have sufficient knowledge you will not need a list of tools. You will know.

OR, let me know what your budget is. $10K, $20K, $100K ? Tools are expensive, there is infinite variety, lists need a limit.
   - guru - Saturday, 11/17/01 03:55:53 GMT

I have a blacksmiths vise that was given to me and the leg is broke off halfway up,i didn't know if it would be possible to weld a new leg on or not? thanks
   flint kemper - Saturday, 11/17/01 04:21:12 GMT

Iam starting in blacksmithing and in the process of colecting tools I have found a old anvil around 200 lb the surface in places has been rounded over similar to the end of a chissel. There is also some pitting on the anvil the anvil is at least 60 years old. I would like to learn more about the anvil and most importantly I want to resurface the anvil, I heard you can heat the anvil to prevent cracking and then weld the surface with a hard type of welding rod then have the surface milled or ground smooth. I need to Know more on the resurfacing of the anvil to pervent a non reversable mistake could you help send me in the right direction
   Thommas Metzler - Saturday, 11/17/01 14:48:04 GMT

Short vise Flint, Are you sure it is broken? Small bench mount vises of this style were made without legs.

Yes, it is possible to weld on a replacement leg. Blacksmith vises were forged of wrought iron or mild steel with hardened steel jaws. The jaws and side plates were forge welded on. Many were made by anvil manufacturers using the same materials and methods.

A replacement leg can be welded on by forge welding or arc welding. Old wrought iron arc welds a little odd but it does weld. The original leg would have been square at the top blending to round at the bottom. There was a heavy round collar welded on at the bottom with the leg protruding just enough to make a short point.
   - guru - Saturday, 11/17/01 15:33:05 GMT

Anvil Repair: Thomas, I always recommend to do as little as possible when repairing anvils. Edges can be dressed with a grinder and the face lightly ground with hand grinder or belt sander. A little light pitting on the face will not hurt your work unless you are doing very fine work.

Anvil construction varies and you have not given enough information to tell what brand or type you have. There are many cast iron steel faced anvils that welding on the face may damage the joint between the cast iron and steel. This joint is ONLY made during the casting process and cannot be repaired. Many anvils have no markings and can only be identified by nuances of style.

Anvil faces are hardened tool steel and repairs are not something for the amature to attempt. Hard facing rod is generaly too hard for anvils as it is designed to be arbrasion resistant. There are special high manganese welding rods for tool steels that are best. Consult your welding supplier. Yes preheat is necessary. 350°F should not hurt the anvil hardness.

There are articles on resurfacing anvils but they will not teach you how to identify the anvil type or the skills necessary to perform the necessary tasks. Dress the anvil and then work around any severe defects.
   - guru - Saturday, 11/17/01 16:38:11 GMT

I've just bought an hydraulic hammer, a 'small' one, with a
15kw electic engine. I don't know others specs exacly. what i want to ask is about the base to be built under it to elliminate vibrations and noise. it would be very helpfull to me to know it before moving it from actual location. i can't watch under it without a using a crane... which are the rules tu built that base? thanks
   matei campan - Saturday, 11/17/01 21:11:13 GMT

Foundation: Matei, IF the machine is hydraulic then it is a forging press and only needs suficient foundation to support the machine in your soil conditions. Forging presses do not actualy strike the work but squeeze it.

IF the machine is pneumatic (an air hammer) then I would guess it is a about a 100kg (~250#) ram weight machine.

IF you have stable clay soil then a first class foundation will be as deep as is is wide (including some extra edge space to give the bolts good support in the concrete. Many installations use much less concrete.

IF you have sandy or gravely soil then you may need a stacked timber foundation starting from a depth where the soil is firmly compacted.

IF you are in an area where vibration will be a problem (precision machine tools in same shop, a residential area, crumbling masonry structure OR where the water table is high) then you may need an inertia block foundation. This is a large block of steel reinforced concrete supported on springs and shock absorbers in a pit lined with heavy concrete. The enertia block is roughly 10 times the weight of the machine (above dimensions but approx 1.5 to 2 times the width deep). These are poured in place. The pit must have sufficient room to remove forms and support blocks. The space between the outside of the pit and the hammer filled with steel deck plate.
   - guru - Saturday, 11/17/01 22:02:37 GMT

I know that I have seen this question posted here before but here it goes. I've seen repousse elements on fire screens,(animals, etc.) and was wondering, is the detail hammered into the steel, and then the steel is dished out(shaped in relief)? How would repousse shapes be accomplished in thicker materials(1/8" steel)? Thanks.
   - John G. - Sunday, 11/18/01 04:10:55 GMT

Heavy Relief or Hot Repousse: John, unlike repousse (worked from the back) or high relief (worked from the front) which is done cold, heavy relief is done hot. This is performed in a bed of dry sand or over a frame and also over various stakes and swage blocks. Spot heating with a torch helps control the area to be worked. Heavy hand air chisles with blunt ends of various shapes are often used. Many sculptors use power hammers to much benefit in this work.

You use whatever method works. Artisticaly shaping heavy plate is a modern art and each practitioner has their own methods.

I would probably cut outline dies from heavy plate the thickness of the relief to work areas down into. I'd combine that with special die/stakes made for the job and combine with the techniques above.

When the work is ready to have the final details chased into the surface (cold), standard repousse pitch with coarse sand can be used.
   - guru - Sunday, 11/18/01 06:42:35 GMT

Good Guru; Would you be so kind as to elaborate further on the inertia-block set up for a power hammer foundation.
Would a rubber pad between the inertia block and the pit bottom be adaquate? I recall something about the incompressability of certain rubbers..
Is the space between the block and pit filled with something energy absorbing like dry sand or left hollow?
Is the inertia block free floating or tethered with chain or cables ( here in earthquake country we think like that)?
How heavy should the pit be?
And last, how do I get innocents to volinteer to pick and shovel the foundation hole dirt and rocks into buckets and then carry it out the door of the shop and down the hill?
Gee, may have to start making homebrew again..mmm..pat round belly.
   - Pete F - Sunday, 11/18/01 07:04:04 GMT

Pete, the inertia block has to be spring mounted. Sometimes shock absorbers are used too. A rubber pad would be too stiff a spring. There are many spring setups depending on how the machine itself is expected to move the inertia block. If motion is up/down only, then springs are only required between the bottom of the block and the pit floor. If designed well, The springs generally are enough to hold the block side to side. The space between the block and the pit must be left empty. The idea is to dampen and isolate the machine vibrations from the pit foundation and thus not transmit the machine vibrations to the soil, structure and neighbors. The pit should be as heavy as required to hold the maximum spring loads. Soil conditions and spring and shock layout determine load location. I've seen the pit walls as thick as 2 feet of reinforced concrete. The location of the machine on the inertia block and the spring and shock location is very important. You don't want a rocking horse. And when it's not done right, you get a rocking horse and an unusable machine.

I can't imagine a situation where a less than 500 pound hammer would be mounted on an inertia block foundation. Design is tricky and construction is VERY expensive. Just pour more concrete.

To transmit less force to the soil, a foundation is made larger in area. The depth of the concrete and reinforcing plan is determined by the load concentration and total load.
   Tony - Sunday, 11/18/01 13:08:23 GMT

Inertia Block Tony, one of our corespondants has a small Kuhn (about 100# I think) that was set on a heavy foundation. The problem was high ground water in a densly populated area. The impact on the water saturated soil was transmitted directly to nearby buildings and rattled everything. This was a unique situation but the solution was a specialy enginered inertia block foundation. In this case the "springs" were five heavy rubber isolation blocks.

Bruce Wallace bought a Nazel 5B (607# - 6920 Ft/lbs) that was setup on an inertia block. We estimated the concrete inertia block weighed 90,000#. Then the hammer weighed another 24,900 pounds. . . The enertia block was steel reinforced with steel beams that sat on the springs. Besides the springs there is a shock mount to reduce sideways motion and to dampen vibration. Although this is a fairly large hammer Nazel recommended hammers as small as 2B's to be mounted on shock absorbing foundations if located in a plant or shop with precision machine tools.

Yes, rubber makes a good shock absorbing spring for this application but it must be in the form of cushions with room to expand sideways when compressed. Rubber IS an incompressable liquid (a non-crystaline solid at room temperature like glass) and a large sheet of rubber will only compress minimaly as it is prevented from displacing outwards. However, rubber pads DO conform to the two pieces squeezing and displacing the rubber to provide good equal support. The high coeficient of friction also prevents horizontal movement. Don't confuse foam rubber with solid rubber. The air in foam rubber can compress (or leak out).

As Tony pointed out the anvil should be near the center of gravity of the inertia block to prevent a rocking motion. This is complicated on self contained hammers as there is considerable reactive thrust under the compressor end.

Engineering enertia block foundations is part science and part art. It is not something to undertake lightly.
   - guru - Sunday, 11/18/01 19:37:47 GMT

Hi guys. Have a question that I'm sure some of you might know the answer. When did the changeover from wrought iron to mild steel occur?
I've read that wrought iron was still in use in bridge buliding and pipe production until the fifties. But a smith told me that wrought iron went out of general use in the very early 1900's. What sort of metal would have been in general use say in the 2o's and 30's? That's when my father was helping a small village smith who also worked on cars. Interesting side note. He said they would pull the head off a Model T, srape out all the carbon, adjust the valves and reinstall the head for 35 cents. You know that had to have been the depression era.
They also built alot of horse wagons and sleds. I wonder what type of metal they used for the bands, tires and fittings.
   - Larry - Monday, 11/19/01 00:18:13 GMT

I am 51 and have done aluminum and stainless steel scultpures for years and would like to work in wrought iron but know little about this art.
Is there anyway to stick weld wrought iron?
Can I use argon gas and a tungsten electrode to arc weld wrought iron? What filler should I use?
Many thanks...
   Jerry Rosenbaum - Monday, 11/19/01 00:37:44 GMT

picked up a weird looking vise, someone told me it is a caulking vise. what is it for?
   jarhead - Monday, 11/19/01 01:29:29 GMT

Larry and Jerry, Henry Bessemer announced his method of making "mild steel" in 1856. It wasn't too long before this method was widely accepted in the Western world. The change from wrought iron to mild steel did not happen overnight however, but by 1900, mild steel was coming more and more into use. I'm fairly certain that by the 1920s and 1930s, mild steel and medium carbon steel were being used in auto production. I have seen a few wagon tires that were mild steel and not wrought iron. The A.M. Byers Co. in Pittsburgh did have a special method of making wrought iron, especially for underground pipes, and this all ended in the 1950s. Now, we come to Jerry's question. The term, "wrought iron" is confusing in terms of semantics. It is a *material* of extremely low carbon content, less than that of mild steel, and it has a stringy structure of microscopic filaments of iron silicate. The Bessemer process got rid of this silicate. But "wrought iron" is also used to mean "ornamental ironwork". Wrought iron is no longer manufactured except in limited quantities in England by one firm. In any event, both M.S. and W.I. are weldable via conventional methods.
   Frank Turley - Monday, 11/19/01 03:01:25 GMT

Odd Vise: Jarhead, A "caulking" vise is a farrier's vise for making horseshoes. However, some were combination vises and had changable heading dies (jaws) for upsetting bolt heads. These also had a bucking block that could be adjusted up and down for the cold end of the bar to rest against. Greenfield was a popular brand as well as others made in Greenfield (Conn. I think).
   - guru - Monday, 11/19/01 03:39:53 GMT

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We had our one millionth visitor sometime during the Leonid meteor shower! Its been just over 3-1/2 years since anvilfire was launched and we have had one million visits! We are currently having visits at approximately 600,000 per year and are looking forward to our 1,000,000 hit year in the near future!

Thank you for supporting anvilfire!
   - guru - Monday, 11/19/01 04:16:30 GMT

Could some body please help with an e mail address or a phone number for northen hydraulics thank you hot forge
   hotforge101 - Monday, 11/19/01 09:56:23 GMT

Hello, I am hoping to find out about basic tempering of a broad sword blade. 5mm mild steel. Any information you are able to supply would be greatly appreciated.
   A.Crout - Monday, 11/19/01 12:01:13 GMT

High ground water. I should have known better. We spent $250,000 doing a soil vibration study because the foundry shakeout equip. was shaking a $250 dollar a night hotel. The same guy owned both. It was high water table in spring. Must have been real squishy soil for a 100 pound hammer to do the damage. We drilled a new well to draw down the water when necessary. Much less expensive than isolation foundations in that case.

Rubber springs have good damping characteristics. Just gotta make sure they donít break down with the wrong oil or heat.

As a side note, Iíve thought about balanced hammers before. I know Chambersburg made a double opposed piston horizontal air hammer.

And I used the wrong term in the earlier post. I should have said "To transmit less LOAD (pounds per square foot) to the soil, a foundation is made larger in area." I erroneously used force instead of load.
   Tony - Monday, 11/19/01 13:12:52 GMT

Mild Steel Sword A.C., Mild steel does not harden appreciably (that's why its called MILD). However, if quenched from a red heat it CAN BE relatively brittle.

When making items of mild steel you normally don't quench from a visible heat and don't heat treat unless the part is very critical. THEN you are heat treating for softness and ductility.

Mild steel WILL harden to some degree as noted above but is not a suitable edge tool material. See our Heat Treating FAQ for more details.
   - guru - Monday, 11/19/01 13:47:39 GMT

From Thomas Register, Not sure if this is who you want.

Northern Hydraulics & Machine Corp.
1547 N. 31st Ave.
Melrose Park, IL 60160
   - guru - Monday, 11/19/01 13:54:34 GMT

hotforge- northerntool.com sells cylinders, etc.
   Pete-Raven - Monday, 11/19/01 15:51:52 GMT

Switch from Wrought Iron to Mild Steel: in the US the commercial change to the Bessemer process seems to have started around the end of the Civil War, "Practical Blacksmithing", Richardson, written in the late 1880's and early 1890's expects both WI and MS to be found in the smithy. With the push for metal from WWI and the more and higher skilled manpower needed for WI the switchover to MS accelerated. Yellin working in the 1920's was specifying the highest grades of WI for their work---but this was special case it became rather a "speciality alloy" used where corrosion resistance was needed through the 50's. I have 6000# of WI from a water tower built in 1929---the legs were MS the tank was WI. The depression was another strange case as much WI was recycled due to lack of funds to buy new MS! Finally WWII scrap drives really lowered the supply of "relic" WI. This combined with better MS metallurgy (corrosion resistance) pretty much ended WI's use. The last company commercially making it went out of business in the 1970's in England and donated their factory to the Blist Hill Museum where they are making limited ammounts of WI and selling it under "The Real Wrought Iron Co, LTD" name.

So changeover is a long ambiguous time depending a lot on who and what---factories would change a lot earlier than a local smithy with a large scrap pile and even they would be mixing bought MS with scrounged WI.

   Thomas Powers - Monday, 11/19/01 16:14:23 GMT

Hot Forge,Try WWW.NorternTool.com I think they changed names to reflect the tools and just hyd parts # 1-800-556-7885 or Fax 1-612-882-6927 G.D.
   Greg Dahms - Monday, 11/19/01 17:02:44 GMT

A friend of mine (an experienced blacksmith), has been asked to make a set of pentatonic scale chimes for his daughter's schoolyard. He'll be using oxy bottles and is wondering if there is a formula for cutting the lengths for the various notes. We are wondering if slicing into them lengthwise effects the notes? Also any general tips or common mistakes to avoid would be helpful. Thanks so much.
   Christine - Monday, 11/19/01 20:47:38 GMT

Tones Christine, Yes there is (a formula). I'll have to dig into my old music research stuff. I THINK you use the formulae for a simple virbrator. The trick to it however is that there are several variables. Length and density (mass per unit length) resulting in weight. But I also think that there is a secondary vibration that has to do with diameter and mass in a circular direction. Then there is the fudge factor due to the hemispherical top end. Its not all math, there is some art involved.

I'll look it up. Remind me if I don't get back to you.
   - guru - Monday, 11/19/01 21:07:43 GMT

I'd be interested in the how to tune the bells too!

A local gas supplier is giving a friend all their bum tanks, the bottoms make dishing forms (SCA armourers love them!), the middles are going to be gas forge shells for the SOFA gas Forge workshop if they like them (*free* stock!) and we will be left will all these tops to hang around the yard...

   Thomas Powers - Monday, 11/19/01 22:01:32 GMT


While we're talking about re-cycling tanks, let me give a quick method of hanging them so they "ring free".

Pick up a pipe cap the right size to fit the threaded opening at the top. Drill and tap it. (I use 3/8" X 16 TPI) Run a safety nut onto the eye bolt, then thread the ey e bolt into the tapped hole in the pipe cap. Add a second safety nut on to the eye bolt from the bottom, and "trap" the pipe cap between the safety nuts. Now thread the pipe cap into the top of the cylinder.

They ring best is hung from an organic fiber. I use leather boot laces, doubled as necessary for strength. But if they are going to be outside, you can use a light chain, and the eye bolt, pipe cap combination seems to permit the bell to ring clearly.
   Paw Paw Wilson - Monday, 11/19/01 22:53:13 GMT

I need advice on my lathe, its about the crossfeed dovetail, there is a fair amount of play in it, Ive tried snugging up the three grub screws even until the slide can barely be moved but when I put my new milling attachment in the whole thing moves because of slop in the dovetail somewhere, its not noticable during normal turning use. The only problem I can see is where the pins the grubscrews push against the strip that goes against the male part of the dovetail contact that strip is very high, basically right at the top edge of it, I would have thought they would need to be near the middle of the strip? Also this
"strip" should it have a corner ground off of it? mines pretty rectangular in profile and it looks like taking an edge off of it would enable it to cantact more of the male dovetail. This is a new 9x20 enco lathe, just a cheap chinese lathe but does me alright.
   shannell - Tuesday, 11/20/01 00:17:59 GMT

Guru and Others: Our 5B is actually a heavy 5B with a 725# ram (steam hammer rated at 800 lbs.). The type of foundation the hammer was sitting on will dampen 99.9% of the hammerís blows to the surrounding area. We plan to set it up in our new addition the same way. New springs are around $2,500 each and theyíre 4 sets. The shock absorbers are another $1,000 each. Lucky we have figured out how to get the springs out from under the 90,000# concrete plug the hammer was sitting on. I had thought we could move the concrete but I canít figure out how to get it out of the hole itís sitting in and on a truck. Iím figuring it will be cheaper to build a new foundation rather then move the piece. It is still a very expensive and difficult proposition, even with the salvaged springs and shock absorbers. But in the long run, it will be cheaper than building a new shop. I know the hammer would eventually knock down the 100-year-old wall portion of our shop - if it were not set up on springs. We are sitting on bedrock and the neighbor about 600 feet away knows when we are running our 100# Bradley. There are closer neighbors but the Bradley doesnít rattle them. Running the 5B on a conventional foundation would be like a small earthquake all day, every day. There is nothing I like better than pissing off the neighbor, but at the cost of knocking down my building isnít my idea of fun.
   Bruce R. Wallace - Tuesday, 11/20/01 01:53:33 GMT

Tuning is accomplished by trimming the bottom edge which raises the pitch. Thinning the cylinder, especially the bottom drops the pitch as does slitting the sides. The clearest sound comes when the sides are not slit and the circumfrential wave frequencies of the cylinder are consonant with each other and with the frequency of the resonant volume. The vibrating frequency of the length needs to be a harmonic of the circumfrential frequency as well, for the purest sound.
Pragmatically, figure out the Guru's formulas, cut long and trim to tune. The shorter the cylinder section the higher the pitch.
Paw Paw is right as usual about hanging from an organic material being best. ...but it requires periodic replacement. Nylon is a good second choice.
Because the valve hole is the null point for all practical purposes, the hanging method isnt critical...However, any sort of non fused joint, be it chain, threaded fittings, etc...all absorb energy and thus damp some sound.
Fair warning, these things will literally drive you dingy.
   - Pete F - Tuesday, 11/20/01 02:17:41 GMT

Lathe Crossslide and Milling Attachment: Shannell, You have a good little lathe but it is NOT a milling machine. Even on much heavier well built machines milling attachments are very marginal. Lathe milling attachments are more of an emergency stop gap measure than a productive tool.

Plan on using the vertical feed on the attachment only. Lock the cross slide. Yeah, I know, this means messing with the adjustment since there is no cross slide lock. . .

Then mill a very little at a time. Use lots of cutting fluid and DO NOT climb mill. Climb milling is cutting so the cutter wants to climb over the work. Its rough on regular milling machines and impossible on loose setups. The chatter wrecks the milling cutter (chips the cutting edges). Be sure to use 4 flute (or more) milling cutters. Two flute cutters are for soft material like free machining aluminium or plastic, NOT steel or brass.

Plain gibs (the adjusting "strip") were given up a long time ago (the 1940's and 50's) by makers of quality lathes. They were replaced by tapered gibs that are adjusted from one end. Good plain and tapered gibs were made of precision cast iron. Yes, the screws should be centered. On cheap modern machines they are mild steel or plastic. The last Atlas machines (the folks that originaly made the good old Craftsman lathes), had a zinc die cast headstock and plastic gibs. . . Might as well have been rubber.

New is nice, but you are better off spending your money on and old heavy antiques rather than hobby machines.
   - guru - Tuesday, 11/20/01 05:00:19 GMT

guys thanks for all the help on the northern hydraulics answear.. hot forge101
   hotforge101 - Tuesday, 11/20/01 07:10:21 GMT

Thanks to all who had opinions to share about what welding set to consider. This next question isn't blacksmithing oriented but getting an answer would sure help.
I'm new to this site and I have yet to figure out the best way to use the Guru page. It took the longest time for me to discover that my question had been answered. Is there a help page that explains all? Is there a way of arrowing in to your own posts to see who's answered them? Sorry to be so ignurunt but I'd sure like to make better use of this site.
   Khym - Tuesday, 11/20/01 07:10:55 GMT

read everything. Everyday. Without fail.

   Escher - Tuesday, 11/20/01 14:42:40 GMT


I think Escher was speaking a little "tongue in cheek", but the answer is still a good one.

You should also learn to use (if you don't already know how) to use the search feature of the archives. That will save a huge amount of time for you and others, since there are many questions that are asked repeatedly.

If you don't find the answers in the archives, check the Frequently Asked Questions (FAQ) section, and do a search there.

If you still haven't found the answer, then post the question here on the guru's page, and check back frequently till you spot the answer. I usually go to the last post, and scroll up till I find a message that I know I've read, then read from that point to the end of the message area.
   Paw Paw Wilson - Tuesday, 11/20/01 14:49:36 GMT

Help. . . . hmmmmmm there is the link above this log, Whats New, Legal, Help - Info and the ABOUT THIS PAGE link at the top of this log that both display the guru page help.

It doesn't get into details on how to use the forum with your browser but it does point out that things move VERY fast here and that the page is archived WEEKLY. I've added some details today.

To find YOUR posts click on the forum frame. Then press CTRL-F for FIND (in Netscape) and use your name. Your post and my answer (as well as some others) will have your name.

This and more detailed how-to are described under the controls on the ARCHIVE page.

However, I try to avoid instructions on how to use browsers because I use only ONE, Netscape. I test our pages under IE but I do not USE IE or any other MS product that I do not have to. AOL, who now owns Netscape has always had their own personal versions that are different, and then there is Opera and the non GUI browsers. . . ALL different.
Your browser will do a lot of tricks if you study it.
   - guru - Tuesday, 11/20/01 18:39:10 GMT

How do I find the annealing temps. to soften attachments welded onto roller chain? I am using hardened tool steel drill blanks, that I weld onto the sides of chain links that become very brittle(due to the heat of welding) and fail under sudden strike shock.
   Fred Osten - Wednesday, 11/21/01 00:36:03 GMT

Thanks to everybody who answered my question about the wrought iron-mild steel changeover. The longer I live the more I learn and the more I need to learn.
   - Larry - Wednesday, 11/21/01 03:32:30 GMT

Annealing Fred, Temperature is not the problem, time is. Virtualy all steels are heated to just above non-magnetic (1425°F) and are then slowly cooled. HSS and other high carbon steels are generaly air hardening and must be cooled very slowly. Their annealing point may be as high as 1600°F Rates as slow as 25 to 30°F/hr depending on the steel. This requires a temperature controled furnace with special controls.

Tempering temperatures vary from a minimum of 350°F to as high as 1450°F depending on the steel and the properties desired.

Welding to tool steels requires careful preheats and special rod. There is a high manganese rod that is good for these applications. Incorrect preheat and the wrong rod can result in crystal structure or cracks that further heat treating cannot cure.

I think you are using the wrong steel for these parts. Most drill steels are not weldable or are VERY difficult to weld and heat treat. There are many weldable high strength alloys (still needing pre and post heat treat) that are not so critical as drill steels.

To do this job right you also need to consider the roller chain. The parts in it (side plates, rollers and pins) are each seperately heat treated. The strength and wear characteristics depend on the heat treatment of these parts. The side plates need to be seperated from the chain and a steel welded to them that is heat treated the same as the plates. Then the welded parts taken to a professional heat treater for heat treatment.

Details on most steels can be found in the ASM references listed at the bottom of our Heat Treating FAQ
   - guru - Wednesday, 11/21/01 05:38:53 GMT

Oh Good Guru...Ive heard alot about the benefits and ease of using Pure Iron for gates/railings and such...because it moves easily, but I know theres always a flip side. What are the drawbacks? Is this a good material to use when I can afford it?
   noiseyforge - Wednesday, 11/21/01 17:12:04 GMT

Polygon drive: Ever use a polygon drive instead of splines? I'm thinking about EDMing a polygon shaft and hub arrangement for a fast reciprocating drive that has to have little backlash but a sliding fit. Have to keep the diameter small too. I've not used one before. Any experience with polygon drive? Thoughts? Thanks.
   Tony - Wednesday, 11/21/01 18:39:12 GMT

Polygonal coupling Tony, socket wrenches do it all the time with a square and then couple to a hex. I've machined large hexes like the Snap-On style with clearance holes in the corners. They apply the load on the flanks of the hex rather than the corners. The corner holes makes machining easy (but you don't need it. However, without the corners it is easier to get a snug fit. Never used on high speed drives but air drive sockets often hit 10K RPM.
   - guru - Wednesday, 11/21/01 19:40:22 GMT

Hmmmm, yeah, I didn't think about sockets. My torque will be 1300 foot pounds max. Speed won't be as high as 10K RPM. But I'll be holding .001" max. clearance between the male and female, and it will be a three lobed polygon with a 2.5" diameter circle inscribed. No sharp corner stress risers. Minimum axial engagement is 2". So comparing that size and clearance to say a 1" drive air impact wrench, I should have zero problems. Good comparison. Thanks again.

Off to burn the electrons......
   Tony - Wednesday, 11/21/01 20:09:39 GMT

Pure Iron: Noisy, It has its pros and cons. It is exceptional material for cold repousse' and deep relief. It forges easier than mild steel and forge welds better. However, all these differences are small for the price paid.

Then there is the question of corosion resistance. Old wrought iron had silica slag intertwined with iron. This gave wrought its wood like grain and supposedly corosion resistance. Pure iron does not have this. However, pure iron has its own type of corrosion resistance and is still better than mild steel.

The articles on wrought iron at "The Real Wrought Iron Company" in Britian previously claimed great corosion resistance for wrought iron THEN proceeded with instructions to stip and repaint every 2 to 3 years. Now they call for annual inspection and immediate refinishing if defects are found. ANY metal will hold up for millinia if this type of care is lavished on it.

Finishes on properly prepared steel with zinc cold galvanizing will last 10 to 20 years without need to refinish unless exposed to heavy abbrasion or salt spray. The Real Wrought Iron Co. literature doesn't mention cold galvanizing but gives reasons hot dip and spray metalizing do not give 100% protection or are unsuitable. Cold galvanizing can be thinned and will run into small joints as well as water. It is nearly as good as spray metalizing, easier to apply and protects in crevises that spray will not reach.

With modern finishes the corrosion resistance of wrought iron and pure iron are not advantages. . . unless you are going to leave the work bare and exposed to the elements.
   - guru - Wednesday, 11/21/01 20:17:31 GMT

Coupling Tony, when you need tight tolerances and low friction ball splines are used. One of our custom machine spindles uses a ball drive on a smooth shaft. The recirculating balls are on ramps like in an overunning clutch. Pairs are used in opposite directions so that the shaft is driven both directions. This drive self centers with zero play and is low friction. Made one heck of a boring mill.

A primitive version of a ball drive is used on lathes with a single roller instead of a ball. Its a method of quickly changing work.
   - guru - Wednesday, 11/21/01 20:23:44 GMT

Pure Iron at Noisy Forge, And just how pure is it? I got a spec sheet on it, and Pure Iron contains many, many, trace elements. I imagine the various elements are added to give the iron some strength.
   Frank Turley - Wednesday, 11/21/01 21:33:32 GMT

Pure Iron
I got to forge a little of this stuff at last year's Quad State and it is very nice to work with. It has a very broad temperature range in which it can be worked, unlike real WI. It also is easier to work than mild steel (A36) but when compared to things like 1018 it has only slight advantages.
The trace elements that Frank mentioned were probably added not for strength but to form carbides. It is commom practice to use Titanium or Niobium in the manufacture of low carbon stainless steels (304L) to form carbides. The Ti scavenges the carbon, keeping the carbon from entering the iron matrix and strenthening it, so you end up with a very soft material. The Ti and Ni additions have virtually the same effect as totally eliminating the carbon, but achieving an actually carbon content of 0.00-0.04 is very hard. I would say that getting some 1018 will be almost as good as the Pure Iron, and a lot cheaper. ( I was quoted 0.90 cents/lb for 100 lbs of 1 inch hot rolled round bar).
   Patrick - Wednesday, 11/21/01 22:08:07 GMT

I thought that the Pure Iron worked much easier than 1018. At least when cold. In fact it is almost too easy to work.
I have to finish some chain out of PI, and since I needed 8 mm square the closest that they had at the time was 10mm round.... It is real easy to make it too thin in a hurry....(grin)
   Ralph - Wednesday, 11/21/01 22:55:23 GMT

I am looking for a metal punch for my husband, who is a blacksmith, to personalize the wrought-iron work he produces. Does your company carry any such products? Ideally, I would like to find someone to custom make a small punch enscribed with his initials and a graphic depiction of an anvil, enclosed in a cicle. If necessary, I could supply a drawing of what I want. If this is not in your lineof products, could you possibly direct me to a company that makes small, customized items of this type.

Thank you,
Trudy Bengivenni

Box 151, RR#1, Church Pt.
Nova Scotia, Canada B0W 1M0
Ph/Fax: 769-0080
e-mail: trujoben at auracom.com
   Trudy Bengivenni - Thursday, 11/22/01 02:56:41 GMT

Touchmark Punch Trudy, Centaur Forge handles touchmarks.
   - guru - Thursday, 11/22/01 04:19:32 GMT

O mighty Guru

Could you tell me where I might be able to buy a tomahawk drift and handles to fit, Looked in centaur and no could find. Any place online or not would be great.

Thanks and Happy Thanksgiving

   Bill - Thursday, 11/22/01 15:42:32 GMT

Handle Drifts Bill, occasionaly an individual produces a few to sell but almost universaly this is a tool blacksmiths make for themselves. Handle makers make a wide variety of handles. I'd start with a handle I can purchase (if you don't want to make your own) and then make a punch and drift pair to fit. Old chisles make good drift material. If you are going to work the tool a lot while it is on the drift then a hot work steel would be best. Be sure the eye is a tight fit on the handle OR undersized enough to need trimming. Shaving the handle is easy, making the eye smaller is hard. . .
   - guru - Thursday, 11/22/01 16:41:55 GMT


Thanks for the info, I've been making hawks and using a drift that I made out of a model a axel, I throught that if I could find a drift that would fit the store bought handles it would sure make it a lot faster, by not having to cut and shape each handle to fit. I didn't know hawk drifts were not readily available, thanks for clearing that up.
Have a good day
   Bill - Thursday, 11/22/01 18:25:59 GMT

Bill: Hawk drifts ARE readily available to fit store-bought handles. The only source I know is Norm Wendell's Iron Mountain,180 Marks Avenue, Lancaster, Ohio 43130-1833 (614)654-2040. No web address, gotta use old technology. (They don't pay me to advertise, just sharing knowledge) They sell all sorts of drifts and other tools. They are cast in malleable iron or something like it that seems to stand up well to hammer blows. I've made over twenty hawks with mine and can report no problems. This drift will shape an eye to fit most factory handles. Some handle (like the last batch I got) may be a little narrow side-to-side, but if you just make the eye smaller you can shape the wood to fit more easily.

Happy Thanksgiving, all!
   Alan-L - Thursday, 11/22/01 20:39:10 GMT

Ihave been forge welding very small bars, on the order of .1 in x .05 in or less. I am not having problems with the welds but at this small size the flux left on things after welding is hard to clean up. I can get most of it off by wire brushing at a high red heat but it is hard to remove it all. Is there perhaps an acid that I could use that would remove the remaining hardened flux while not seriously attacking the metal??

   Mark Chapman - Friday, 11/23/01 03:04:12 GMT

Thanks Alan, I'll give them a call.
   Bill - Friday, 11/23/01 03:25:12 GMT

Flux Removal: Mark, I don't know any other method other than mechanical (chipping, grit blasting, tumbling). I was once told a solution of boric acid would do it but I have not tested it. The problem is the low soluability of the (glassy) anhydrous borax.
   - guru - Friday, 11/23/01 05:56:39 GMT

flux removal, sometimes quenching in water helps, be sure to anneal afterwards, then brush
   Stefan - Friday, 11/23/01 07:12:21 GMT

dear gurus thanks for all your help so far when you told me i needed to reheat my backhoe part back up to blue to temper after heating do i let cool at own rate or what also going to try making tongs is the rivet purchased or made by the smith if bought where is a good place to look thanks again for a wonderful site to hang and learn
   berkeley sorelle - Friday, 11/23/01 12:50:44 GMT

KHYM - Paw-Paw,

My response about reading everything was a little tongue in cheek, but I have learned quite a bit just by poring over the archives from the beginning on. If nothing else you will find bits of information that can stick in your brain until you happen to find a problem to use it on.

Now if I could only get paid to do this . . .
   escher - Friday, 11/23/01 16:31:03 GMT


Some times I'll be faced with a problem at the forge and I'll think to myself, "Didn't somebody say something about that at Anvilfire some time ago?" Usually walk in the house, and a quick search finds the answer for me.
   Paw Paw Wilson - Friday, 11/23/01 17:44:20 GMT

Tempering: Berkley, Let it cool on its own. Part of the reason for tempering is to reduce stresses. Quenching often induces new stresses. However, it does not generaly hurt on low carbon parts. HOWEVER, if the part is higher carbon you want it to have low internal stresses. So, in general you don't make it a habbit of quenching parts heated to temper them.

Plain Steel Rivets: These can be purchased but there are fewer and fewer places to get them. It used to be that every hardware store had them. But you would have a hard time finding a hardware store with ANY rivets other than pop-rivets today. The places that do carry them require minimum orders (often 15 to 20 pounds), so you want to look at other options.

Making a rivet is not difficult. Upset the end of a bar that fits your pritchel hole, then drop the bar through the pritchel hole and use it for heading the rivet. If you do not have an anvil then a plate with holes drilled in it will do. 3/8" and 5/16" are good tong rivet sizes. Drill the header holes 1/32" oversize.

It is not unusual to see bolts cut off and used for rivets. If you purchase bolts for this purpose ask for "heavy hex" bolts. These have a larger than standard head and are used in steel construction. Also be sure to get bolts long enough that the unthreaded part of the shank passes through the joint PLUS about 2 diameters to form the head.

AND more often than not a smith will cut off a piece of straight bar, insert into the tongs hot, and head both sides at once IN the tongs. This works if you work fast, flip the work over often to work both heads at once AND ocassionaly work the tongs back and forth to prevent the expanded shank from locking up the tongs. Just be sure the tongs joint fits flat before you start. If you want pretty round heads you will need to use a header.
   - guru - Friday, 11/23/01 20:08:40 GMT

Rivet Source: Jay-Cee Sales & Rivet Inc., Farmington, Michigan. www.rivetsinstock.com.
   Frank Turley - Friday, 11/23/01 22:29:52 GMT

Rivet Source: Jay-Cee Sales & Rivet Inc., Farmington, Michigan. www.rivetsinstock.com.
   Frank Turley - Friday, 11/23/01 22:29:53 GMT

How do I get the vedio's of Clifton Ralph doing the powerhammer demo's. thank you Jim
   Jim Griswold - Saturday, 11/24/01 00:25:22 GMT

Jim, We don't have them and neither does Centaur Forge. I think you have to get them from Clifton. Anyone have his address?
   - guru - Saturday, 11/24/01 00:50:31 GMT

Cliftons telephone no. is 1-219-980-4437. Indiana doesn't change there clocks so don't call to early or to late. Mid afternoon best. Best to call instead of writeing a letter.
   Dave Wells - Saturday, 11/24/01 01:06:28 GMT

Mark; I use repeated cycles of thermal shock ( heat and quench)..gets most of it.
Running a wire brush on that kind of stuff is nasty.
Escher; Now if the guru could only get paid for this..sigh.
For many of us, the time and $ we save from the info gained here makes joining the Guru's Cybersmiths a great deal.
   - Pete F - Saturday, 11/24/01 07:09:01 GMT

Post vise:

Recently got a 110 pound, six inch, post vise - and set about getting it ready for use. I noticed the threads inside the screw box are only about 3-4 inches deep - and the rest of the screw box (the female threaded tube that the screw threads into) is without any threads. At first I thought I had gotten a bad vise. Then I read in Anvil magazine, where they restored a leg vise, that the threads in the thread box only run half the length of the tube. It this generally true?

Also, the jaws close nice and parallel but are offset by about 1/4 inch. Any ideas how to fix this? I am using a small propane forge, so removing the shorter jaw section and heating-and-twisting slightly is probably not an option.

I think parts of the jaw's top surfaces have been restored with regular welding wire. This should prefferably be done with hard-facing type wire right? Do they make flux cored hard-facing wire and is this the way to go?

Finally, I see some smiths have adapted removable angle iron pieces to cover the top and griping surfaces of the jaws on their vises. Why is this done - to keep from messing up the vise with angle grinders and such?


   Gary - Saturday, 11/24/01 15:48:36 GMT

Post Vise Details: Gary, There were numerous leg vise makers and some details varied.

The internal thread of over three inches is not a problem. "Modern" (early 1900's) heavy duty chipping vises had a nut about 1-1/4 to 1-1/2 diameters deep. Most engineers will tell you that a thread that deep will pull the screw in two before the thread fails. However, vise threads wear and cause the tube to expand under load. Eventualy the nut will expand and hop over the screw thread under load. The longer thread helps prevent this.

To prevent wear clean the thread and nut and lubricate with Never-Sieze. This low friction lubricant will make the vise easier to clamp tight and prevent wear. I also add a couple flat washers under the thrust surface of the screw and lubricate them with Never-Sieze. This creates a low friction thrust bearing further improving the efficiency of the vise.

The jaw offset is not twist if they close parallel, it is the side plates supporting the front jaw being bent or worn. A big torch and judicious use of a hammer will solve that problem. The fit of the plates should be very snug but not bind on the jaw pivot. Good lubrication also helps here. The Never-Seize will eventualy get dry. A little oil will revive it if you don't want to apply more. You should always keep the lower pivot oiled as well as the spring bearing surfaces. Like all machinery vises NEED to be lubricated.

The originial jaw faces were forge welded tool steel inserts. When new they had a fine cross hatched tooth surface (not like the heavy modern teeth). I prefer mine smooth. Old worn smooth vise jaws with gently radiused corners do not mark the work. Since most of what is done in a leg vise is hot work I would not worry about any refacing that was done, except to grind and file it smooth.

Do not use hard facing rod or wire on anvils and vises. It is an abrasion resistant material and much harder than the tools steel faces on these tools. The results are that as the surface wears the extra hard material makes high spots that are hard on the work and tools.

Angle iron covers. . don't know unless they are covering the jaw teeth. There IS a tool made of a piece of angle iron with a cross bar called a chisel block that prevents the work from rotating in the jaws. However, this is only needed against the back jaw, the cross bar rest on the front jaw. Machinists and others doing fine work often use copper covers on vise jaws to cover the teeth and prevent maring the work. However, this is not a good idea for hot work.
   - guru - Saturday, 11/24/01 17:33:10 GMT

Mine is not a question of working with iron, but of caring for it. I am the curator of Bok Tower in Lake Wales, Florida and we have some wonderful gates and railings made by Samuel Yellin in 1928. I am looking for suggestions on the best care for this ironwork. We presently (and for the past 30 years or more) apply a liberal coating of boiled linseed oil thinned slightly with a lubricating oil to the iron about four times each year. Our goal is to prevent rusting, but the oil has built up to such a thick coating that the original surface of the iron is completely obscured. This buildup is at least 12 years old. In addition to suggestions on coatings for this ironwork, I am looking for solutions to removing the heavy buildup of linseed oil. My predecessor, who served as the head curator from 1968 until 2000, says that he removed the builtup oil once by scraping with metal tools. Any advise on this from you or your associates would be greatly appreciated.

Ed Lamar
   Ed Lamar - Saturday, 11/24/01 18:12:29 GMT

dear guru, I am a abana member for the alst few years, with a small backyard shop located in rural Eastern Ontario Canada. My question is: Is there such a thing as a naturally aspirated propane torch with a pistol-like grip and size? If so, where can it be had in Canada?
   herbbeedell - Saturday, 11/24/01 18:16:57 GMT

Gary, I use angle iron vise jaw caps to which I welded a U-shaped flat auto spring to keep them together and in line. One cap has a sharp 90 degree edge and the other has a 1/8" radiused edge, so when I can get a right angle bend on my work, I can control the appearance of the inside of the bend.
   Frank Turley - Saturday, 11/24/01 21:26:41 GMT

Finishes Ed, I'm afraid you may have asked the wrong person. I go against many of the standard finishing recomendations including recomendations of NOT sandblasting ironwork (insisted upon by most historic preservationists).

I always recommend stripping to bare metal (preferebably by sand blasting), zinc powder paint (cold galvanizing), neutral priming over the zinc (red oxide) and then a top coat of your choice. It works, and has a zero maintenance life of 20 years or more unless there is abrasion of the surface. And then light abrasion is protected by the zinc. The paint does not have to be so thick that it hides the texture of the metal. The zinc needs to be thinned and flowed into joints but sprayed on the rest.

All oil-wax, linseed oil and drier recipes are non-scientific witches' brews - amature paint formulations. Many are just plain cheap and lazy. I'll admit to going the quick and dirty wax finish routine when I am in a hurry but that does not mean it will last or is the best finish. There is a huge paint industry with REAL scientists producing very good products that smiths SHOULD take advantage of.

There is a very bad precident in the American decorative iron work industry among many of the top smiths (including Yellin) to not finish their work, finish it poorly OR rely on the customer to do it. Often the job is underbid and there is no money for a first class finish. So the work is forged, dusted off and a coat of wax or paint applied and the work shipped or installed as-is. This is business as usual but it is WRONG.

In the Washington National Cathedral they have a huge collection of forged ironwork including the work of Samuel Yellin, Gichner, Tom Bredlow and Josh Greenwood among others. Most of it is unfinished ironwork with a thin coat of wax. The only thing that is saving it is the very stable temperature of the massive building. However, much of it was brightly finished when new. A lot of it is rusting (if you look close) and some of it is developing a natural wax-rust finish. But none of it is in its original state. And there is so much of it that it would be a full time job for someone just waxing it.

Stripping gummy petro-organic finishes is very difficult. Scraping is a common method after softening with solvents. However, manual scraping by common laborers is just as damaging or MORE damaging than sand blasting. Hand scraping also does not get into tight places. Decorative ironwork is made of soft wrought iron or mild steel. All scraper blades, screw drivers, picks used on the iron will be considerably harder.

On a large body of work I would experiment with solvents and strong detergents including wax strippers. After their application steam cleaning or pressure washing with a mild caustic should do a good job. However, if the work is installed where solvents and chemicals cannot be used then you are in a bind. However, there is a NEW technology that might solve the problem. Dry-ice grit blasting. Ground up dry ice is used in a sandblasting setup. After the ice does its job it just evaporates. . however, the residue removed is left where ever the "grit" falls. I am not sure how aggressive this process is and need to find out more about it. There is also the option of organic "grits" such as walnut shells that will remove paint but not the metalic scale unless it is loose.

I had to remove a mixture of dried fish oil and lubricating oil from a machine once. Nothing worked except scraping. Solvent loosened the coating and brought out the fish smell but did not remove it. I did not have the option of steam cleaning.

Preservationists and other curators will persecute you to no end if you remove the black-oxide scale from the ironwork. It is why everyone is against sandblasting. However, if the work is semi-bright or WAS finely finished at one time (as much of Yellin's work was) then there is only a partial coating of scale. It is not sufficient scale to protect the iron and preserving it at all costs may be shortening the life of the work. I suspect that at this time much of what you are oiling is old bright surface that now has a layer of rust and oil. . . By the way, motor oil has detergents in it that are hydroscopic and absorb water from the air. Surfaces oiled with detergent oil will rust UNDER the oil. . Linseed oil absorbs oxygen to dry and that oxygen combines with the iron under the oil darkening bright finishes.

Clean the work to remove all traces of wax-oil. Solvents may be necessary (Brakeclean brake cleaner is one of my favorites but is designed only for small areas). All loose rust and scale must be removed by wire brushing or grit blasting. If sand blasting is verboten then etch the surface with a pre-paint etchant such as phosphoric acid. The acid stabilizes rust and the etch gives the surface tooth so that paint will stick. Rinse the excess acid off after it has dried and etched for several days. Then apply thinned (to water consistancy) zinc cold galvanizing to joints and fine crevises (decorative iron work is full of them). Then spray the entire piece with a thin coating of the same. Over the zinc paint you want a neutral primer. It isolates the somtimes chemicaly active pigments in the top coat from the active zinc primer. Red-oxide lacquer primer is good. Then finish with a top coat of lacquer, polyurethane or epoxy. Each coat only needs to be thick enough to cover evenly. INSPECT each coat from all angles as open work is a bitch to cover. Note that "zinc rich" and "zinc chromate" primers ARE NOT cold galvanizing and are not zinc rich. Cold galvanizing is zinc powder in a small amount of carrier/binder.

The top coat can be a hand rubbed series of glazes to give the work that translucent blueblack of natural iron or a black/brown of rusted and oiled ("iron" patina) metalwork. I keep telling smiths that if Hollywood can make wood and plaster look like wrought iron, then blacksmiths should be able to make wrought iron look like wrought iron!

Look at automobile finishes. They easily hold up for 20 years or more (except the new water based stuff). Where properly painted autos rust out is where sand and debis gets trapped inside body panels and hold salty moisture for years. But dry open surfaces take daily wear and tear without wearing through and rusting.

If a proper paint job lasts 25 years (outdoors) on ironwork then you would be facing only the 4th paint job in the life of the work (including the original finish). With no maintenance inbetween! You have been paying for those paint jobs and not getting them by using cheap high maintenance finishes that cost more in the long run. This also results in rusting and scraping that is detreimental to the ironwork. Once the work has been properly painted once it does not need to be completedly striped to repaint and does not need to be sandblasted or etched more than ONCE in its life.

Do it right, record how it was done, then forget about it during the rest of your tenure. However, it is suggested that you make a close annual inspection and make spot repairs IF necessary.

Sorry if I've rambled. . .
   - guru - Saturday, 11/24/01 22:06:18 GMT


In the paint manufacturing business we used hot caustic soda solution to clean paint mixing tanks - which is dissolved sodium hydoxide, and boy did it do the job (caution it will slowly dissolve aluminum while emitting hydrogen gas, but on steel or iron its great). It will soaponify most organic coatings such as linseed oil. Now this is nasty stuff.....its a powerfull base, the opposite of an acid.

I suggest you try a cans of spray-on oven cleaner - which is weaker lye or caustic - and see what results you get. It will be a sticky mess that will need to be wiped off, and wear rubber gloves and such. Repeat till you get to bare metal.

Otherwise give the commercially available paint strippers a try.

Good luck.

   Gary - Saturday, 11/24/01 23:14:51 GMT

Need information on how to tie a broom. I have almost finnished making a fireplace set but I need a broom.
   Sal - Saturday, 11/24/01 23:48:41 GMT

Sal, go to Iforge, check out demo #117. Jock did a demo on fireplace brooms.You can go there using the menu in upper right corner.
   Tom-L - Sunday, 11/25/01 03:26:08 GMT

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