WELCOME to the anvilfire Guru's Den

THIS is a forum for questions and answers about blacksmithing and general metalworking. Ask the Guru any reasonable question and he or one of his helpers will answer your question, find someone that can, OR research the question for you. This is an archive of posts from November 8 - 15, 2000 on the Guru's Den
[ THE - GURUS | ABOUT THIS PAGE | Getting Started in Blacksmithing ]

Gold: dadrad, Gold is very easy to work. It is one of the most maleable of all metals. References on silver smithing usualy apply. Most books on making jewlery also apply. Tools include those to work almost any other metal. Everything from jewlers saws and gravers to power forging hammers and drawing benches.

Most of the differences in working gold have to do with its value. Every scrap is saved to be melted down and reworked. Heavy chip making operations like milling or lathe turning are avoided. Pure gold is too soft for many applications so it is common that rings and other jewlery are made from a gold/silver alloy (14kt gold).

There are a few techniques particular to gold. Granulation and making of gold leaf are specialized processes.
- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Wednesday, 11/08/00 00:07:47 GMT

Thanks to RalphD for comments and AlanL for joke. But I could still use more description to answer the question "How do you build/maintain a coal fire??"
jacque  <jacqueandpat at home.com> - Wednesday, 11/08/00 00:44:17 GMT

Peter Johnson - on how to build a forge - I'm asking the same question and finding good suggestions in Wimberley's pamphlet 'How to build a forge' available from Centaur Forge (800-666-9175) and from www.emainc.com/radnor/forge.
One suggests air input from the side into the fire, the other (old time tradition, I think) suggest air input from the bottom center. Any comments for the crowd??
jacque  <jacqueandpat at home.com> - Wednesday, 11/08/00 00:51:05 GMT

Coal Fire: jacque, Click on archives,

October 8-15, 2000, Fire Management

September 8-15, 2000, After 5 min.

July 8-21, 2000, Coal Again.

April 15-30, 1999, COAL SIZE

Almost every month there is Q&A about building and maintaining coal fires.

OLD time forges were side blown, modern cast iron forges are mostly bottom blown but there is a side blown water cooled nozzel type that the British prefer.

There are as many ways to maintain a coal fire as there are grades of coal. Most of the instructions above apply to top grade coal. Low grade coal requires all kinds of little tricks and constant tweeking.
- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Wednesday, 11/08/00 01:47:37 GMT

RE:Fire building - thanks, guru, for the feed back - I read all your references to the archives and learned even more than I was asking for. I suggest that all should brouse the archives, just for the fun of it. Much good info there. I'm now ready to build my first fire. (but, i guess i ought to build the forge first) - thanks, again.
jacque  <jacqueandpat at home.com> - Thursday, 01/01/70 02:58:54 GMT


I just found a heck of a deal. A Soderfors anvil (Sweden, 150lbs. 1929, 2) and 9 different hardy tools (3/4 fuller, 1/2 fuller, 1/2 round swedge block, another swedge block for collaring, a half round cutoff, bick, etc) for $100.00. Could I get you to look in your Anvils in America book and see if there is any historical value before I grind a radius on the near and far edge? Thanks, Billy T.
Billy Templeton  <bhtempleton at cei.net> - Wednesday, 11/08/00 04:07:07 GMT

Sölderfors: Claims to have been making anvils since 1200AD. There is some question about the anvils being cast or forged but in any case are very good anvils. They are not particularly rare. I've had several Kohlswa anvils. These are all cast steel and the edges tend to chip. Its not a bad idea to radius or chamfer the edges of the anvil over the body where they get the heaviest use. However, if an anvil has survived for 70 years without chipping I would not get carried away with a grinder.

Good deal.
- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Wednesday, 11/08/00 04:40:04 GMT

dadrad, Contact: Revere Academy of Jewelry Arts, San Francisco, Ca. They can provide all the information you need. Be careful though, you might end up being a Blacksmith. TC
Tim Cisneros  <blacksmith at theforgeworks.com> - Wednesday, 11/08/00 13:12:48 GMT

Goldsmithing vs. Blacksmithing: Goldsmiths work gold, Blacksmiths, the REAL alchemists, turn earth (common iron) air, fire and water into gold - $!
- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Wednesday, 11/08/00 14:23:18 GMT

I'm just curious about metalsmithing classes in Chicago. Are there any that you know of other than formal education that exist here? Or if not, do you know of any metal shoppes or co-ops that allow beginners to try there hand at it? Thank you for your assistance. Jess
jessica  <janeastlake at yahoo.com> - Wednesday, 11/08/00 17:00:32 GMT

Illinois: Jessica, Try contacting the Illinois Valley Blacksmith Association, pres. Steve Clary (217) 865-2002.

Or Michigan Artist Blacksmith's Association

ABANA Chapters welcome guests to meetings and generally move their meetings around so that they cover a wide area. Ask about local members or shops. There are several in the Chicago area and most blacksmiths are very helpful to others intrested in the art.

There may be other crafts organizations in your area. Contact the local museums and crafts galleries and ask them about local organizations. Don't overlook Jewlery courses. The work is smaller but the techniques of working the metal are generaly the same.

I recommend you sign up for an introduction to metalworking course at a local trade school or community college. In some areas there are "adult education" classes of this nature. Our local community college's Machine Shop curriculum starts with a general metalworking course that includes safety, drilling, filing and even a little forging. Its a good start. The McGraw-Hill text book is a classic in metalworking. The same curriculum has some basic welding courses that are not as intense as a regular welding courses. Together these are a very good start for someone intrested in metalsmithing.

In either case you should obtain the three books reccommended in our Getting Started article. They are useful as general information and as text-books on the subject. Your initial shop time will be short and very valuable to you. Studying the terminology and the basics well in advance will help you make best use of that shop time.
- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Wednesday, 11/08/00 19:07:47 GMT

Any one have any info on a small metalworking company named MORNINGSTAR METAL WORKS of New York?
kelly  <jasondick at aol.com> - Wednesday, 11/08/00 22:16:43 GMT

Sorry, NO iForge Demo Tonight:
- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Wednesday, 11/08/00 23:36:06 GMT

Jock, I have a call from a woman at Pima Community College in AZ. She was inspected by OSHA and asked about a guard to protect a person's (idiot's) hand from the dies. Jay Kidwell had her call Art Jones. He said he remembered some exemption for forging hammers but couldnot remember well enough to quote. Have you any information on die guard exemptions?
Toby Hickman  <waylan at sprynet.com> - Thursday, 11/09/00 00:04:41 GMT

OSHA: Toby, No I do not. I know that Chambersburg provides an OSHA kit or upgrade for their utility hammers that consists of ties to prevent loose bolts from falling and striking the operator but there are no guards.

Let me see if I can find OSHA specs covering hammers. IF they apply press standards than there can only be enough space to insert the work. However, hammers are different, requiring hand held tooling besides the work being forged.
- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Thursday, 11/09/00 01:48:02 GMT

OSHA: YES, There is language refering to scale guards on the back of the machine to protect other workers but not the front as that would "interfere with the work procedures". I'll drag out all the applicable regs.
Section 1910.218(a)(3)(viii) requires that a scale guard be provided at the back of every hammer to stop flying scale. The requirement for the guard at the back of the hammer is to protect other employees from flying scale. The operators would be at the front of the hammer protected from the flying scale by proper protective clothing. In addition, it is recognized that a scale guard on the front of the hammer would interfere with the work procedures.

Your variance application and the information obtained in the visit to your facility indicate that your forging hammers do not fall within the scope of the standard in that the operators work completely around the hammer, and that there are no other employees working within 20 feet of the hammer. Therefore, there are no employees exposed to a
hazard from the flying scale and a scale guard is not required.


- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Thursday, 11/09/00 02:15:13 GMT

Guru if you use the 20' rule be parpared to have a guard
rail to prevent any but the operator to be with in the
area. Even if you put a paint strip to warn others. Which
you could flag it off. But my experiance is that unless
there is someone there like a fire watch most workers
don't pay it any attention. If they have a local Safety
Council they could be of help. Anyone that can teach the
OSHA 10 and 30 hour can order tapes from OSHA. They have
one tape on Forge Hammer Safety.
Bobby  <nealb30 at hotmail.com> - Thursday, 11/09/00 02:39:36 GMT

Where can I get plans for building an approximately 25 ton fly-press
mike  <michaelshahn> - Thursday, 11/09/00 03:04:03 GMT

OSHA Summary: The rules for forging machines are pretty clear and are seperate and different from presses.

Four type of guards are required.
  • Flying parts
  • Falling Parts
  • Operating lever (or treadle)
  • Scale guard

The motor or valve on air hammers should have a lockout for doing maintenance or repairs (standard fused switch).

We all know that most mechanical hamers should have guards. Little Giants are notorious for exploding springs. Other hammers may have similar problems.

Falling part guards are only required on large hammers with heavy fasteners that may fall. It it required that they be cabled to the machine.

The operating lever guard is something that should be added to older hammers and is standard on newer hammers. These consist of a simple bar guard to prevent a falling object (a piece of stock or tool) from engaging the machine.

The scale guard is to protect other workers, not the operators who should be wearing protective clothing. The letter quoted above indicates that other guards would interfere with the normal operation of the machine. However, the machine size is not specified but calls for a 20 foot protection zone. This would be for a very large machine. Scale from small power hammers generaly does not travel more than a few feet.

Hammers that are operated from all directions are exempt from scale guards. This would include MOST small hammers with universal dies. These machines have work fed through the dies from any approachable angle and often have hand tools held tangent to the work at the same time. Long work is fed through small hammers negating the use of a scale guard on the back even though it may only be operated from the front.

The general requirements for pinch point guarding are not applied to forging machines. Specific operations described in the regulations illustrate this.

29 CFR 1910.218(a)(3)(vi)
"Oil swabs, or scale removers, or other devices to remove scale shall be provided. These devices shall be long enough to enable a man to reach the full length of the die without placing his hand or arm between the dies."

OSHA Standards Interpretation and Compliance Letters
02/14/1975 - Scale guard requirements
for forging hammers.

". .it is recognized that a scale guard on the front of the hammer would interfere with the work procedures."

As Bobby mentioned the regulations require safety training. They also require regular inspection and recods of the inspections.

I'll post all the documents I found. A letter (the above) with CFR numbers for each paragraph should do the trick. The letter MAY want to be tailored to cover just the die area. However, as soon as the inspector is forced to read the regulations the other guards other than press pinch point type that are required may become an issue.
- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Thursday, 11/09/00 04:01:24 GMT

Guru: I resently acuired a prettie old post vise and in the prosses of taking the rust off of it I uncovered I think half of the company's name that made it (WRIGHTS -------) and it also said below the WRIGHTS ----- , PATENT and below that it said SOLID BLOCK. I am trying to find out more about the vise, any help would be helpfull.
josh  <baltes at skyenet.net> - Thursday, 11/09/00 04:04:11 GMT

there was (is?) a Chicago smith who got a lot of ink, TV exposure, w/in past several years for teaching ghetto youth the craft. you might turn up something checking newspaper, TV morgue files if they'll let you. also: try the ironworkers' and pipefitters' locals. they have apprentice programs.
Cracked Anvil  <cracked at anvilfire.com> - Thursday, 11/09/00 04:04:20 GMT

Fly Press Plans: Mike, There are none that I know of. These are a very carefully engineered machine and it is not recomended that an amature attempt to construct one.
Flypresses stop a moving flywheel and reverse its motion by the stretching of the machine's frame and a reversal of the motion through a carefully desiged screw. This occurs on every stroke. The stress on the parts is incredible.

Stoping any flywheel instantly, creates an infinite force. Spreading out the stopage over time and distance reduces the force from the infinite to a handleable level. An improperly designed, constructed or built press WILL self destruct.
- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Thursday, 11/09/00 04:16:08 GMT

Guru - as I've said before, I'm just getting started on blacksmithing. I'm in the process of building a small coal forge, so, I haven't struck my first blow with a hammer yet. I have been given a cheap chinese 55# cast iron anvil. I know I can't expect much - but it's a place to start (and it was free). A co-worker has suggested that I get the anvil heat treated. I have heard that these anvils are hard, but brittle. What will heat treating the anvil (which I can also get done for free) do for it?? Thanks.
Jacque  <jacqueandpat at home.com> - Thursday, 11/09/00 04:19:43 GMT

OLD VISE: Josh, it sounds like it may be a Peter Wright or a Wright and Sons. Keep cleaning carfully. Try taking a rubbing of the markings. Most Blacksmith Leg vises were made by anvil manufacturers. However, it is rare to find manufacturer's names on them.
- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Thursday, 11/09/00 04:22:10 GMT

I purchased an old Champion 400 Blower. It has a fluid leak from the oil bath through the worm gear shaft that connects to the fan. There is a grease cup cap over the shaft. Is there a leather washer inside the grease cap to seal off the oil bath. Or is their a person to call that is well versed in the repair and maintance of Champion Blowers.
Mike Wood  <woodranc at eoni.com> - Thursday, 11/09/00 04:34:04 GMT

Ive been working metal for about a year, but im still a hack
I just bought an old champion forge and blower but I need charcol, Id make my own if I new how but ill buy it first.
Could you tell me where to find some in MS. and how ta make
it. thanks.
Ginnir  <Mamcowan at earthlink.net> - Thursday, 11/09/00 12:15:58 GMT


On the Champ. 400. I just finished rebuilding mine and there is NO seal on that shaft. It is normal to leak oil out of that dust cap. Just add oil every now and then and the level will self regulate through that hole. It is a little messy but it works.
Wayne Parris  <benthar at pacbell.net> - Thursday, 11/09/00 14:19:26 GMT

Charcoal: Ginnir, There are numerous ways to make charcoal. However, if coal is available it is much more convienient.

Charcoal is wood with all the water, light elements and volatiles cooked out leaving mostly carbon. It was THE blacksmith's fuel for thousands of years and the bronzesmiths before that. It can be made from any type of wood. However, dry hardwood is best. Pine, cedar and fur (the conificers) are next. There are a few odd woods like tulip poplar that do not coal well at all.

The classic method is to stack a bon fire, bury it with dirt, start a fire from a pre-built starter at the bottom of the heap from a vent in the center. Holes are poked in the perimiter of the mound to let the the entire heap start burning then the vent and holes are closed and the wood alowed to smoulder and go out. There is quite a bit of art to this ancient method that can only be learned by experiance.

The Australian method: Dig a pit (preferably have someone else dig a pit). Build a fire and fill the pit with wood. When the fire is going good and most of the wood is aflame toss on some more to refill the pit then cover with corragated roofing and cover the edges with dirt. Let cool for several days before opening the pit and removing the charcoal.

The Oil Drum method. Build a fire in a burn barrel that has a few vents about 6" (15cm) from the bottom. When you have a good hot fire stuff in more wood to fill and cover the top with a snug fitting lid. Leave the vents open for a while then close them to put out the remaining fire. Let cool overnight. Open the barrel and remove the charcoal.

It is easiest and cleaner in the barrel method to use precut wood blocks rather than breaking up the charcoal later.

You can build sophisticated coaling retorts but the above methods are the most common.
- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Thursday, 11/09/00 17:15:45 GMT

I'm looking for imformation on buying an anvil, i'm just learning and looking for tips on what to look for and what to avoid.
Tom Ruley - Thursday, 11/09/00 19:18:03 GMT

I'm looking for imformation on buying an anvil, i'm just learning and looking for tips on what to look for and what to avoid.
Tom Ruley - Thursday, 11/09/00 19:18:06 GMT

I'm looking for imformation on buying an anvil, i'm just learning and looking for tips on what to look for and what to avoid.
Tom Ruley  <tomruley at hotmail.com> - Thursday, 11/09/00 19:20:06 GMT

This is a can of worms question...(smile)
Actually they type of anvil need depends on what you are planning on doing.
Stay away from cast iron anvils. stay away from 'dead' anvils. Dead being little or no rebound( not how much it rings.)
If you are looking at making mostly knives then a smaller anvil will do fine.(up to about 180lbs) If you are wanting to do more in the way of general smithing or even architectural smithing then get the largest anvil you can afford.(but make sure it is a good rebounder first)
A lot of folks pass on anvils with chips out of the edges..
Personally this is not a problem for me. Just smooth out the chip and radius it and use the radius as a fuller....
And unless there are large chunks out of the face you can work with or around the smaller defects.
Some brands you will see or hear of are Peter Wright(PW) Fisher(or Fisher-Norris) ,Kolshwa,Trenton, Hay-Budden(HB)....
PW and HB are forged. Fishers were cast steel(?) either way they are good anvils. Actually all I listed are considered to be good.
There are many more out there.
I believe guru has an article on anvils in the "Getting Started area"
Also see if you can contact a smith group in your local area. SOmeone will possible have or know of anvil for sale.

Good luck
Ralph  <ralphd at jps.net> - Thursday, 11/09/00 19:29:32 GMT

I wouldlike to build or purchase a propane forge for pattern
welding. I have used a ventura type for forging blades,but
have some doubts about this type of forge,reaching welding
heat. If you had enough gas pressure maybe it would work?

Mankel makes one with a blower for 825 and a weight of 2oo
pounds. This sounds like more than I need.What would you
recomend for pattern welding.
rperryandy   <randy.perry at bakeratlas> - Thursday, 11/09/00 23:09:05 GMT

Forges: Randy, Jim Hrisoulas uses a venturi type NC-TOOL two burner "Knife makers" forge in his Damascus video. Blower type forges tend to run hotter, faster, but they also scale the work more. Adjustments are critical on venturi forges but once you get them right they do just fine.

Wallace Metal Works The on-line NC-TOOL catalog.
- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Thursday, 11/09/00 23:34:04 GMT

Thanks Jock, Toby
Toby Hickman  <waylan at sprynet.com> - Thursday, 11/09/00 23:54:14 GMT

Jacques-- cast iron doesn't respond well to heat treating or to much of anything else except being melted down. cast iron is only slightly ahead of plastic as a smiting material. get yourself a nice big chunk of RR track. It'll work fine. See what Alex. Weygers had to say in his wonderful books on the subject of getting by and making do in smiting (which is what it's all about, right?)-- and what beautiful tools and art he could forge with the tools he made out of found materials. Would you believe a bulldozer part employed as an anvil? A forge made out of a tin bucket hanging in a tree, the wind for a bellows? Yup, and there's more!
Cracked Anvil  <cracked at anvilfire.com> - Friday, 11/10/00 02:03:52 GMT

i want to know about haybunnen? anvils. fo you have any history on these or know where i can find any? mine was made in 1902. it weighs 250 pounds. would like to know where i can purchace old anvils from 250 lbs. and up. chris
chris - Friday, 11/10/00 02:04:23 GMT

can you give me any information concerning the anvils made by haybunnen? i have a 1902 250 lb. one. i would also likee to buy old anvils of the aforementioned weight and up.can you give me other anvil company names? chris
chris  <chriswalker at skybest.com> - Friday, 11/10/00 02:13:06 GMT

Hay-Budden: Chris, These anvils were manufactured in Brooklyn NY, USA from the 1880's until about 1926. Early ones have wrought iron bodies and tool steel faces. Later ones have tool steel upper bodies welded at the waist to a mild steel or wrought iron base. These were some of the finest anvils made anywhere in the world.

A 250# anvil is a very desirable size. 100#-150# anvils are much more common. Hay-Budden made small anvils (about 30#) as well as large anvils (500#) and every size in between.

If you want the explore the history of anvils as well as the manufacturing processes used to make Hay-Buddens and others you will find it in Anvils in America by Richard Postman.
- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Friday, 11/10/00 03:16:31 GMT

I am trying to obtain a representative tensile strength and yield strength for types W1, A1, O1, and M2 drill rod in as-received condition; i.e, BEFORE (emphasis) any heat treatment. I use them raw for many non-critical applications, but now I would like to know exactly what I am dealing with.
Robert Copel  <rcopel at apexmail.com> - Friday, 11/10/00 03:43:44 GMT

What is the composition of the rods that are usually sold at flea markets to braze or "weld" aluminum? Do these alloys really make a durable repair? Where can you purchase these rods inexpensively? Thanks for the info.
Mac  <MaddMacs at webtv.net> - Friday, 11/10/00 05:56:25 GMT

Magic Rods: Mac, I don't know. Mostly zinc I think. Maybe a zinc/tin or zinc/silver alloy. There is a web site (will e-mail to you). Lumiweld, Dura Fix, Techno Weld are trade names this product is sold under. It is a soldering process, not brazing or welding.

The problem I have with these rods is that the process is not in any of the welding books or sold by commercial welding suppliers. However many model builder's and hobbiest sites claim success with the product.

The last time I investigated the product I came across this statement:

. . an independent test from Bell Laboratories and U.S. government spec approval for their product.

The problem with this statement is that they could not produce the report since "Bell Laborotories" no longer exists and has become part of "Lucent Technologies". The US government spec wasn't available either. . .

- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Friday, 11/10/00 15:02:11 GMT

Tool Steels: Robert, The "as-recieved" condition can vary. Most of these materials are sold in the annealed condition but you can also occasionaly obtain them "as rolled" which means you have to heat treat the material prior to manufacturing. In this case the condition could be anywhere from annealed to full hard.

Lets assume anealed material. . . well, my ASM book only has annealed specs for L and S steels. However, on average the others will be close.

L6 - 95 ksi tensile, 55 ksi yeild, 93 HRB
S1 - 100 ksi tensile, 60 ksi yeild, 96 HRB
- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Friday, 11/10/00 16:05:25 GMT

Cast Iron gets a lot of abuse on this site.
Cast iron is really a friend to the smith. In my shop, I have approximately 12 tons of useful stuff made from cast iron.
It seems that cast iron anvils get a particularly bad rap.

There are cheap cast iron utensils, anvils. also drill presses, vices, c-clamps skillets etc.. These are made from a mixed melt of scrap with no attention to alloy, these castings are not properly cooled or heat treated.
We can’t condemn all cast iron utensils based on our experience with poorly produced products.

If you use any of the older power hammers you are forging on an anvil that is predominately cast iron.

JohnC  <careatti at crosslink.net> - Friday, 11/10/00 18:36:58 GMT

Cast Iron: John, you are right (as always). I have a cast iron weld platen (1 ton), a 4 foot cone mandrel, a bunch of swage blocks. . all cast iron. And a couple 10 tons of machinery mostly made of cast iron.

There are also numerous grades of cast iron as well as ductile iron. However, the problem isn't necessarily the poor quality control of a lot of cast iron, and that IS a problem in some small foundries. The problem is selling cast iron anvils to the unwary or those that don't know better. I've run a photo here of a set of imported cast iron anvils several times. The employees at the farm supply stores that sell them don't know a good anvil from a bad one and the anvils are not labled "cast iron - for limited use".

These door stops are sold by the thousands. They work fine for occasional straightening or lite forging. However, you wouldn't believe the number of letters I get about replacing horns and heals from folks that suspect the truth about their foolishness before they wrote. . .

Cast iron anvils have been around for centuries. However, it used to be they were sold along side the REAL thing for the same distributors. So, HERE is the price of a forged tool steel anvil with a warrantee, HERE is the price for a cheap cast iron anvil with NO warrantee. Folks knew what they were getting and wouldn't be surprised when it broke under heavy use.

I LIKE cast iron. I just don't like dealers selling cast iron anvils without an explanation.
- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Friday, 11/10/00 19:38:36 GMT

Me and my dad just bought a LLOTSON & CO anvil that is marked She field with a 2 under the horn and would really like to know about it. We bought if off a friend whos great grandfather was a wheel wright and owned. I don't want to cheat him and wounder if the 80 dollar I payed him was about right. Any help would be greatly aprechated.
nononora  <nononora at msn.com> - Friday, 11/10/00 20:40:06 GMT

Tillotson & Co.: nononora, These anvils were sold by the hardware dealer T.Tillotson. The only one shown in Anvils in America is a Mouse Hole Forge type from the early 1800's. . probably 1845 +/-~10 years.

Although Tillotson marked anvils are not common, Mouse Hole Forge anvils from this time are very common. Anvils are priced by weight and condition. If the face is in good condition and there are no serious chunks missing from the anvil is is worth a minimum of $1USD/pound up to $2.50/pound if it is in very good condition. Small anvils less that 100# sell for more as do large anvils over 200#. The most common weight anvils are 125 to 150# and these tend to sell in the $1-$2/pound range.

The last thing that determines anvil prices is what the seller thinks its worth. I have been given anvils by people that just wanted to see them in the hands of someone that would use them. This is surprisingly common.

As old as this anvil is the age does not affect the price. Currently anvils do not become true collectors items until they are over 200-250 years old unless they have something very unusual about them.
- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Friday, 11/10/00 22:49:06 GMT

Hello, I am green as a gord at this this computer stuff, so please hang with me. I am just a fool with tools that needs to learn moor about this art. I have taken a couple of classes, andpan to take moor at Silver Dolar City (I live neer ther, 20miles or so). I am very interested in any inexpensive (CHEEP or FREE) helpI can receive would be greatly apreciated Sincerly Eddie Stewart
MADHATER  <emstewart at tri-lakes.net> - Saturday, 11/11/00 03:39:02 GMT

Cheep, Free: Eddie, thats us. Check the 21st Century Page and the iForge page.
- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Saturday, 11/11/00 04:02:13 GMT

yep, can't beat that old high-class-type cast iron, specially for when you need a top-notch manhole cover. and, I wish I had a whole bunch of them radiators, too, with lots of hot water running through them, in the house this time of year.
Cracked Anvil  <cracked at anvilfire.com> - Saturday, 11/11/00 04:52:20 GMT


I've got both the manhole cover and the radiators. The cover is one with a flat side and sits on the dirt floor of my forge as a upsetting plate. I love the radiators in the winter (starting now, actually), I tuck my clothing into one for first thing in the morning and lay my jackest and coats on the one near the door. True, it cuts the efficiencey, but it is sheer luxury to step out of the shower, towel off, and slip into 110 degree clothing first thing in the morning. Then grabbing a hot jacket, with a couple of pre-warmed quartze cobbles for the pockets as handwarmers, just before heading out on a frosty morning; ah, paradise!

radiators seem to last forever (or at least since about 1950, when they replaced the five woodstoves).

Bound for Las Cruses, NM on Monday. Any of the crew hang out there?

Visit your National Parks: www.nps.gov

Come row with us: www.wam.umd.edu/~eowyn/Longship/

Bruce Blackistone (Atli)  <asylum at us.HSAnet.net> - Saturday, 11/11/00 12:33:26 GMT

Hello; This is my first Q & A session with the Guru, -Love the anvil fire web pages and related links. It has been exceptionally helpfull to a newcomer like me in the blacksmithing world. -My thanks to Ron Riel's web pages for providing detailed info on making a small gas forge. -I am well on my way to completing this project!
I have basic metallurgy skills as I am a journeyman welder and have forayed into the world of metal craftsmanship called blacksmithing. I enjoy this work and am coming to appreciate the skills developed and used by blacksmiths.
One area that I am having troubles with is the art of creating smooth repeatable (consistant) scrolls on various metals.
I have a basic manual scroll jig for making scrolls on 3/16" flat stock but would like some guidance and/or reference information on how to produce small scrolls on wire sizes from 3/32" to 1/4" diameter? I can hand bend them but it is difficult to get repeatable curves when doing multiple units. -Any suggestions or sources of info I can utilize?

Mike Miller  <millermi at cadvision.com> - Saturday, 11/11/00 18:07:17 GMT

what is the difference between old time wrought iron and the pure iron they're selling today?
coondogger  <onehorse at mediaone.net> - Saturday, 11/11/00 18:16:10 GMT

Scrolls: Mike, Check our iForge page articles on laying out scrolls and scroll ends, and our benders article on the 21st Century page.

With experiance many smiths can produce free hand scrolls. Others don't quite have the "eye" for it and need jigs. However, ALL smiths producing any quantity of duplicate scrolls will make one of the simple jigs described in the referenced articles.

- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Saturday, 11/11/00 18:23:32 GMT

Coondogger: the simple difference is that "pureiron" has no slag fibers in its structure. It's a lot more forgiving than wrought, but it doesn't do quite the same things under the hammer. It actually feels and acts kind of rubbery when you forge it. Without the fibrous, composite structure of actual wrought iron, it's really more like a seriously mild steel in its behavior.
Alan L  <longmire at premiernet.net> - Saturday, 11/11/00 19:32:28 GMT

Hi Guru , i'm a welder by trade and i work for a railroad repair shop , i'm quite interested in blacksmithing and i've been making some stuff with 3/8 rebar i like the braid design on the rebar , but i'm having a problem bending the bar, i've been eyeballing the bends but as you know they don't come out even , is there someone that knows how to design a bender that i could use to make small bends to large circles . thanks in advance .
Rod  <bluesman at telusplanet.net> - Saturday, 11/11/00 20:38:39 GMT

Hi Guru , i'm a welder by trade and i work for a railroad repair shop , i'm quite interested in blacksmithing and i've been making some stuff with 3/8 rebar i like the braid design on the rebar , but i'm having a problem bending the bar, i've been eyeballing the bends but as you know they don't come out even , is there someone that knows how to design a bender that i could use to make small bends to large circles . thanks in advance .
Rod  <bluesman at telusplanet.net> - Saturday, 11/11/00 20:46:06 GMT

Benders: Rod, See the references in the post "Scrolls" above.

There are two types of benders, static mandrel or form, and rolls. Rolls can be adjusted to any size but are rather expensive and always leave a straight end. Static bending jigs are fast and cheap. If you wanted a set in 1" increments you could build them in a day. Most smiths make bending jogs as needed.
- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Saturday, 11/11/00 22:36:02 GMT

Dear Guru,
For the purpose of weoponsmithing(knives in paticular),
is file steel of a lesser grade than spring steel or high
carbon steel? Basically which would you recomend.

Charles D. Wodenson
charles D.Wodenson  <dosenhof at hotmail.com/> - Sunday, 11/12/00 00:21:37 GMT

Perhaps I'm the exception that proves the rule, or a plain fool. But, I dont have ANY scroll jigs, after all these years. My reasoning is thus.
This is handwork, the work should show it, Uniform scrolls are boring. You cant compete with a machine and it is counter productive try.
Presuming that you are going to the trouble to forge a taper ( at the minimum) for each scroll, go ahead and forge it the rest of the way into a scroll on the anvil. Use bending forks to do the fine tuning.
This gives ironwork heart...(and you can charge more).
The above assumes a distinction between fabricator and blacksmith.
That ought to stir 'em up!
Pete F  <ironyworks at netscape.net> - Sunday, 11/12/00 02:08:44 GMT

Spring Steel = High Carbon Steel = "File Steel": Charles, There are some variations in the steels used for these items but when the only choice was carbon ("crucible") steel they would have all been the same. Approximately SAE 1095. The difference being the tempering of the steel.

Modern alloy steels are selected for durability and economics. Sometimes those economics are the ease of use. A more expensive steel may be cheaper to heat treat AND more durable. Alloy steels are used for high durabilty springs that see millions of cycles like automotive valve springs. They are also more heat resistant.

My general experiance has been that plain carbon steels make the most easily maintained edge.

For everything made of steel there are choices between hardness and ductility. In general ductility = durability when parts are abused. . . Hardness = wear resistance but also means brittleness. There are no simple answers.

However, Atli (Bruce B.) makes the point that a sharp broken sword is worthless but a dull whole sword is still a weapon.
- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Sunday, 11/12/00 05:32:07 GMT

To Jig or Not to Jig: Pete, Having an artistic bacground I never had to layout a scroll. Even when making jigs I forge the master by hand. Although I know how to create scrolls by a variety of mathematical and geometric methods I've never always made them by eye. However, many professionals carefully design and layout scrolls. Sometimes they make a jig, other times they just use a chalk outline and match the scrolls by eye.

The only time I've used scroll jigs is when the parts had to be absolutely the same. The last scroll jig job I did was for several dozen "S" scrolls that were to fit into A triangluar opening in a wood frame made by someone else. The scrolls contacted the wood at 5 points and screw holes were drilled at those points. All 5 points had to be within +/- 1/64" (+/-.5mm). The ends were forged by hand, scrolled on a jig, then fitted into a triangular jig. The parts all looked slightly different but they all fit identicaly.

Many archetectural jobs require hundreds or thousands of near identical scrolls. Forging the tapers and ends and starting the scrolls by hand produces work with plenty of variety even when bent on a jig.

Of course you can take the same jig, bend plain bar and produce ugly "machine" made looking scrolls.
- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Sunday, 11/12/00 05:56:51 GMT

Good Morning, Guru - thanks for the info on the cast iron anvils. I guess I'll keep the one I've got so I have something to hit when I don't want to hurt the good anvil that I'm now searching for. Also, thanks for all the good info on what to look for in a good anvil. Here's the next subject and questions - - What's a fair price to pay for a Champion #400 blower?? and what do you look for to make sure you're getting a good one?? Are there any other blowers that I should be looking out for??
Jacque  <jacqueandpat at home.com> - Sunday, 11/12/00 18:16:51 GMT

I will be a blacksmith in an old recreated town in a local museum. I have played around with blacksmithing, I am the proud owner of a Peter Wright anvil, a small farriers forge and a set of bellows which is in need of refurbishing. To look the part of a blacksmith, instead of using my overalls, I would like to make a leather apron. Where can I find an appropriate pattern for such? I will possibly have many more questions later concerning the bellows and the blacksmith's forge. This is my first e-mail to you. You have a very nice and informative page-Thanks.
Ernie  <esmith at ionet.net> - Sunday, 11/12/00 18:58:29 GMT

Apron: Ernie, A standard leather welders apron will cost you less than the raw leather and be a good start. If you go to any yard goods store they will have apron patterns. Try McCalls (patterns) they cater to standard items. There will be at least ONE plain pattern.

Now, if you are the imaginative type you would take two full sheets of newsprint and tape them together, hold it against your chest and mark lines chest wide down to below your arms and then tapering to the necessary width. The lower section is usualy rectangular from there down. The top of a set of bib overalls is a good do-by. I cut about 8" off a standard apron so it stops just at my knees. Some like them longer. Ask your wife or girl friend to help.

The straps can be buttoned, riveted or fixed. They criss-cross at the back and attach below the arms. The standard narrow ones tangle easily. The aprons I made for my kids I took a 3" square of leather and cut four slits then fed the straps through it where they criss-cross.

Its a dead simple shape. A calf or dear skin is very near the right shape to start.
- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Sunday, 11/12/00 21:51:11 GMT

Blowers: Jacque, Two things to watch out for. Oil and noisy gears. If the blower isn't covered with oil it probably hasn't been properly lubricated. If the gears make a lot of noise then they are worn out. There are no replacements. If you find one that operates smooth and quietly the price doesn't matter if that is what you want.

Electric blowers are much more convienient and small ones cost less than worn out hand crank blowers. . .
- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Sunday, 11/12/00 22:09:36 GMT

Blowers: I started looking at the old Champion's after visiting the NorthTexasB'SmithAssoc gig at Edgewood this weekend. They had 2 forges going (boy, did I learn a lot!) and used Champion's on both. Electric does sound like a better choice for day-in-day-out use. Centaur Forge has a couple of Dayton blowers in the $50 range - or I could just use my wife's hair dryer (she's about to shoot me over all this, anyway). Will a hair dryer or on old vacuum cleaner put out enough air, or do in need something a bit more 'commercial'??
Jacque  <jacqueandpat at home.com> - Monday, 11/13/00 00:00:34 GMT

Blower Options: Jacque, A hair dryer with heating elements removed (or burned out) works fine. Most hair driers have an over-temperature device that shuts them off when they get too hot.

Vacuum cleaners tend to put out too much air but have been used. A diverter or air valve is absolutely necessary.

The Dayton blowers work on small forges and I've used their 140 CFM model on gas forges. The small ones can be controlled using a common ceiling rheostat.
- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Monday, 11/13/00 00:21:22 GMT

I am doing a school report on blacksmiths in the early times. I am looking for pictures of their tools and how they were used. Can you please help? Any information would be great!!!
snowflake  <snowflake at ameritech.net> - Monday, 11/13/00 01:47:07 GMT

Tools: Snowflake, I'm afraid we don't have a great deal of basic information because that is covered so well in books on the subject of blacksmithing. I know, that doesn't help you a lot at this moment. However, your school or public library may have "The Art of Blacksmithing" by Alex Bealer (see our review on the bookshelf page), and "A Museum of Early American Tools" by Eric Sloane. There are many others but these are the ones they will most likely have.

On our iForge page we have a lot of how-to articles that include drawings and photos. One of my articles title "Punching I" covers the shape of punches and how they are used. The article titled "Hammer Control" shows how a smith should stand and hold a hammer. A cartoon character 'Dippy Duck' is used. There are also tool articles on our 21st Century page.

The basic tools are anvil, forge, hammer, tongs and vise.

Feel free to use any pictures you find here as long as they are for your school report.
- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Monday, 11/13/00 02:09:14 GMT

I going to Costa Rica in December. Any iron work of note to put on our agenda?
Tom  <prkr07 at aol.com> - Monday, 11/13/00 02:53:05 GMT

I have an Atlas #2 arbour press patented in 1912. It has a 32" flywheel on the side. I have been playing with the idea of trying to use it as a small flypress to fuller small stock, say up to 3/4". After your mention of the stresses in a real flypress, however, I'm having second thoughts. What forging processes would a press like this be good for, hole punching? Thanks
Greatfulfred  <jweisenb at llion.org> - Monday, 11/13/00 03:13:37 GMT

Presses: Greatfulred, Generaly "arbor" presses are manual lever operated devices designed for light pressing of parts. The largest are about 12 tons and have a double frame with lever and a handwheel to quickly raise and lower the ram.

Generaly machines with flywheels are punch presses. The flywheel is engaged by a dog type clutch and the ram operated on a crankshaft cycles one stroke and the clutch disengages. Or at least is is supposed to disengage. These machines are notorious for double cycling and are being scraped by the millions because of safety problems.

Once the clutch is engaged an infinite force is unleashed. The only limiting factor is the work. If the machine punches the hole within the machine's capacity then everything is OK. Most punch presses are designed to use 15% of the energy in the flywheel over a rotational period of 20-30 degrees. Stalling the press releases 100% of the energy in a much shorter period of time. If time is zero then force is infinite. There can be no such thing as an infinite force (the Universe will come to an end). SO, something almost always breaks.

A punch press is NOT a forging machine. Similar machines (upsetters, bulldozers) are designed for forging but are carefully rated for the work at hand.

The problem with using a punch press for forging is that hot work takes MUCH less effort than cold work. But how hot IS that piece? Are you willing to have a punch shatter or press frame break is you missjudge the heat?

Power hammers have a linkage that adjusts for the height of the work and is not a rigid coupling to the crank. All the force is in the mass/velocity of the ram. In a punch press the force is in the flyweel.

Punch presses are great tools. However, you MUST know the capacity of the machine and know how to engineer the job at hand. Simple punching and shearing are the most common jobs. Use 60 tons per square inch of sheared area for mild steel. A 10 ton punch press can punch a 3/8" hole in 1/8" plate or a 3/4" hole in 1/16" plate:

.375" * PI * .125" * 60t = 8.8 tons

A 7/16" hole is a little over capacity. If a dieset with springs is used then 8.8 tons is full capacity for the 10ton press. The same rules apply to shearing bar stock.

NOTE: This rule is given by Roper Whitney. MACHINERY'S HANDBOOK uses 80t (more safety factor).

Bending is more difficult to calculate. However, all kinds of small bending jobs are done on punch presses. Dies should never close 100% coining the work unless the press has the capacity to coin the work.

I have a little 4 ton OBI (Open back Inclinable) punch press that I a keep 9/32" round punch and die in. It will punch this clearance hole for 1/4" in 16ga steel. Very handy but that is the limit. I've also used it to punch shims up to 1.25" dia. I have two 12 ton OBI presses that can probably make ONE good press. The clutch in one is unreliable (double and triple cycles). The other has a home built crankshaft from the old one being sheared in two from an overload.

The double cycling makes these presses impossible to meet OHSA rules for control. The operator is supposed to have both hands on the controls to make the press cycle. If it cycles after the operator remove their hands froms the controls then the double handed controls are negated. That is why junkyards a FULL of these presses. If you ever pay more than scrap for one you've paid too much. They currently sell for much less at auctions because the only bidders are scrap dealers who have to buy at less than scrap price to make a profit. If you have employees you cannot afford one of these at any price.

Figure out what kind of press you have and its capacity then we can talk more about what it is useful for.
- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Monday, 11/13/00 05:06:14 GMT

While we are talking presses: O, mechanicaly-minded Guru, please help me.(I´m not to lazy to read a mechanical design-book, I´m to stupid to understand it.)
When making sword-hilts I use a hand-held die and hammer to make the hole for the tang as well as a depression so the blade will fit into the guard. Would it be practical to build a simple lever-operated press to do the work instead? The die travel doesn´t have to be more than an inch. Could a looong lever with a cam in the end do the work, or would physics be against it?
Olle Andersson  <utgaardaolle at ebox.tninet.se> - Monday, 11/13/00 16:11:30 GMT

Lever Punch: Olle, Lever operated punches are fairly common tools. They are limited the same a punch presses by the strength of the frame. Most use compound leverage to increase the force but if the device is anchored securly and you have a long enough lever then simple leverage works.

The force calculations I gave above apply. You can substitute metric tons for a rough calc since the above has some fudge factors in it. Punch travel should only need clear the work. Cold steel punches when the punch is about 1/3 way through the metal. You probably need 10 to 12 tonnes.

Look at these folks punches for what can be done with compound leverage or a screw.

- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Monday, 11/13/00 17:22:17 GMT

Hello my name is Michael Nolan I am 21 years old and live in Kentucky, I am trying to begin to learn the craft of bladesmithing I have a number of books on this on craft I have been surching for tools and i have been runing into a lot of dead ends the anvil is prosenting a real problum do you know of any place that could supply me with the quality spelcalized tools that i will need. ie hammers, anvil, grinder, tongs, vices, coldchizes, and anvil hardies. i would really appreacate any info that you could give me
Thank You
Mike N.
Michael Nolan  <grimreaper2999 at aol.com> - Monday, 11/13/00 17:25:58 GMT

Tools: Michael, Just look UP! The dealers that advertise here can provide most of what you need. Kayne and Son carry a wide variety of high quality tools and Bruce Wallace carries both NEW and USED tools. Check out his used tool page, it changes weekly.

Some of the tools you need such as specialized belt grinders may need to be purchased from industrial machine tool dealers.
- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Monday, 11/13/00 18:04:17 GMT

Sorry Guru, I wasn´t specific. I´m hammering the dies halfway trough a 2 inch steel bar at yellow heat and it doesn´t always come out where I want it. No big problem, but it takes a few heats to get it right. The question is if a simple lever-press can ever be powerful enough to press a die trough hot steel. In theory I only need a long enough lever(Archimedes, wasn´t it?), but I do not know the practical limits.
Olle Andersson  <utgaardaolle at ebox.tninet.se> - Monday, 11/13/00 18:59:28 GMT

Punching: Olle, A guided punch would work much better. Yes a lever type device could be used. The trick is that long slender punches overheat quickly. They need to be lubricated with grease (to act as a coolant) and extracted from the work quickly. Stuck punches due to the end swelling when overheated is a common problem.

In standard punch press operations there is a part called a "stripper" that holds the work down so that when the punch is extracted the work doesn't follow it. This can consist of a pair of fingers on either side of the punch OR a plate with a hole in it.

Forging pressure for hot steel is 10 to 20 Tons per square inch depending on the steel (mild to tool) and the temperature. The above is at 2,000&176;F (1100&176C).

To push a 1/4" (6.4mm) punch into a piece of hot steel would require aprox a 3/4 ton (700kg) force. Maybe. . . These things are determined by percentage of displacement for forging. However, 4-5 ton hand operated arbor presses are common (rack and pinion with long lever) and should be capable of doing the job.

You should be able to set the piece in the press, pull the lever, PUSH the lever to extract, and be done that quick. Punches can be straight sided but tapered ones pull from the work much eaiser and consistantly.

Now to get my arbor press setup near the forge. .
- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Monday, 11/13/00 22:19:01 GMT

Thanks for doing those punch calculations. I have been doing some press forging. You calculations seem to fit the experience. I am using a small fly press. probably about 2 tons as well as a 35t scothcman hydraulic modified for hot forging.
I would suggest that for punching: Keep the punch as short as possible. Taper it more than 10 degrees. Avoid punches that have shallow tapers like Morse and other machine tapers, they are made to stick. Most of those Blacksmith punches we see are actually drifts used by iron workers to line up holes. I use a two step process for making holes. 1st punch a hole smaller than the one needed. 2nd drift the the hole to the correct size. This gives he opportunity to move the hole to the right spot by forging around it.
For two inches quench the punch a lot.

Except for those cheap short nosed anvils you have been treating cast iron pretty well the last few days.

JohnC  <careatti at crosslink.net> - Monday, 11/13/00 22:51:34 GMT

Dear Guru,
I am planning to build a fire place insert. i want to use 1" plate purchased from a scrap yard. The Q is, does it matter the type of steel i use. Is mild steel the same as Boiler plate steel? The piece will be against the outer brick with a pyro-ceramic glass door. I will use the steel as a facing and will complete the burner box next year. But will use the facing and door this year.

Thanks, scott

scott  <scott_wojtasik at hotmail.com> - Monday, 11/13/00 23:05:29 GMT

Insert: Ah. . . Scott? How are you going to get that monster installed???? The last wood stove I built of 3/8" plate weighed about 450#. You are talking about maybe 800 to 1,000 pounds! The heat might penetrate in a couple days. . .

Yes, in general mild steel plate is the same as "boiler plate". Any steel will do. Clean it and paint it with BB-Q black.

All heavy inserts must be designed to be able to expand and contract. The coeficient of expansion of steel is much greater than the masonry. It is rarely done but angle lintles should have a strip of softwood set at the ends to provide a cushion for expansion.
- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Monday, 11/13/00 23:30:11 GMT

Been smithing since '95, now I want to try and forge-weld a small piece of QT-1 to 1010 steel (to try and recreate a flatter I have seen in an old book. Other than making sure my heat is correct, should I worry about the differences in shrinkage in the meatals? I don't think it will matter because the content isn't too much different, though the book cautions about separation from repeated shock. Would the approach be any different than what was done the men at Peter Wright?
Thank you in advance.
Daryl  <blackwate at sk.sympatico.ca> - Tuesday, 11/14/00 00:06:05 GMT

i never know how much to heat the punch so that it won't cool the workpiece. is a dark red too much?
coondogger  <onehorse at mediaone.net> - Tuesday, 11/14/00 00:54:31 GMT

I need to get 10" stove pipe to run off the forge I am building. I can't find any? Do you know where I can order some? Thanks for your help, Betsy
Betsy  <bcook at ee.net> - Tuesday, 11/14/00 01:00:38 GMT

dear Guru,
I have just purchased an early pattern anvil after years of looking. I need some help with identification and history. It weighs 185# and the following stamped on it's side;

first line: M & _ (last character unknown, possibly a Y)
second : ARM - TA
third : MOUSE
fourth : HOLE
fifth : FORGE
Then the weight line : 1 . 2 . 17
Any help or direction would be terrific! Thanks, Chris
Chris Carter  <cbcarter at stripe.colorado.edu> - Tuesday, 11/14/00 01:09:51 GMT

OK Chris, here you go.

M & H





It weighed 157 pounds new.

First number 1 = 112 pounds

Second number 2 = 28 pounds

Third number 17 = 17 pounds

Totals 157 pounds in the old English Hundred weight system.

Was forged at the Mouse Hole Forge in Sheffield, England. Look on the front foot under the horn. There may be a serial number there and if there is, I may be able to give you a pretty accurate date of manufacture.
Paw Paw Wilson  <pawpaw at paw-paws-forge.com> - Tuesday, 11/14/00 01:32:19 GMT

Flatter Facing: Daryl, I'm not sure what QT-1 is but all high carbon steels have a lot lower working temperature (including for welding) than the mild steel. So don't overheat the high carbon stuff. Flux well and heattreat the way you normaly would the QT-1.
- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Tuesday, 11/14/00 02:08:56 GMT

Dear Paw Paw,
Thanks a bunch!
As you suggested, I looked on front foot. There is a single "B" stamped in the center of the foot on the 1 1/2" tall vertical face that's below the waist. What do you think? Oh yeah, wouldn't that middle # 2 in the weight stamping mean 2 quarters, or 56 lbs? Or am I unclear on the concept? Thanks Again!!! Chris
Chris Carter  <cbcarter at stripe.colorado.edu> - Tuesday, 11/14/00 02:11:47 GMT

Punch temperature: Coondogger, Punches get too hot too fast as is. Room temperature is best. Use a little axel grease as coolant or in deep holes coal dust works. Don't leave the punch in the hole any longer than possible. Remove and quench as it gets hot (or before it gets TOO hot). If your punch overheats or cools the work too much you aren't working fast enough. If you are punching a large hole such as for a hammer then you probably need help.
- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Tuesday, 11/14/00 02:18:46 GMT

Whoops: Paw-Paw got me on this one once before so its my turn. Yes Chris, you got it right.

(1 * 112) + (2 * 28 = 56) + (1 * 17) = 185#
- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Tuesday, 11/14/00 02:21:21 GMT



I can't believe I did that!

Chris, you're right.
Paw Paw Wilson  <pawpaw at paw-paws-forge.com> - Tuesday, 11/14/00 02:43:07 GMT

SPELL CHECKER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Should be:

Paw Paw Wilson  <pawpaw at paw-paws-forge.com> - Tuesday, 11/14/00 02:44:13 GMT


The "B" is probably an inspectors mark. The serial number (if it has one) would be on the very lowest part of the foot. Might be filled in with crud or paint. But there should be one there. And as you point out, the 2 should be two quarters, 56 pounds. Math error on my part.
Paw Paw Wilson  <pawpaw at paw-paws-forge.com> - Tuesday, 11/14/00 02:50:27 GMT

Dear Guru: I recently purchased a very very old 174# anvil, and she's beautiful. The only markings are a large worn "W" on the side and a bold 174 indicating the weight. It had been buried in a barn for decades, and I feel like it is a gift from above (I know you must know what that means). However, The top has several strikes from a pointed hammer. Those strikes left about 15 1/8" deep pits on the face. Do I chalk this up to "Character," or do I grind them down? I'm so proud of the thing that I would like it to be perfect, but I can live with a little character. Would I do any harm to the anvil by grinding the surface down to remove the pit marks? What would you do?
Many thanks,
Brandon (Portland, Oregon)
Brandon  <SeismicCo at aol.com> - Tuesday, 11/14/00 05:18:58 GMT

Paw Paw,
had I not weighed this thing before I bought it, I wouldn't have even thought to question your figure.
Weighing it turned out to be a bad move, it had been marked as 140# and that extra 45# cost me $100 - the price of the forge I wanted. Oh well, I did manage to scrape it together.
Back to the "B", I scraped and ScotchBrited the rust off of the lowest part of the front foot and all that is there is that "B", so I guess there is no serial number. I wonder - does the M&H ARMITAGE imply a period in Mouse Hole poprietorship? And, does no serial number help? I looked everywhere but on the bottom.
Thanks again for your efforts, Chris
Chris Carter  <cbcarter at stripe.colorado.edu> - Tuesday, 11/14/00 05:42:57 GMT

Dear Guru,

I'm begginer blacksmith. I have a few questions, but I want to tell you about what I started out with and what got me interested in blacksmithing in the first place. I first got interested in blacksmithing because I'm really mad about the dark ages, so I tried to make a cheap sword out of a long iron bar. I started a fire out in my yard and I got to work on the bar right away. It turned out that it was harder than it looked.
My dad use to own a ranch and made horse shoes with his friend David. My dad said that David had a furnace that melted the horse shoes. The question that came to my mind was how do you make a blacksmithing furnace? My dad said that he could build one if he had the blueprints for it. Thats why I wrote.Write me back at scrapper6g at earthlink.net

Shanaun Green
age:13, Olympia,Washington

Shanaun Green  <scrapper6g at earthlink.net> - Tuesday, 11/14/00 06:23:51 GMT

Pits: Brandon, Light pitting from rust can be ground down but pits with any depth should be be worked around. If the face is soft enough you can often take a hammer and work around the pits taping in ever smaller circles and closing the marks. This is done with a common smithing hammer with a "flat" face. The "flat" face should actualy have a slight arc to it. The blows do not need to be hard but should be firm taps. Do not grind or file prior to this. If there is any raised material you will be pushing it back and closing the divots. This doesn't always work but its worth a try.

DO NOT try to weld it.
- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Tuesday, 11/14/00 06:27:20 GMT

Forge: Shanaun, Forges do not melt the steel but heat it until it becomes "plastic" and can be forged. There are numerous types of forges. Check our plans page for coal and gas forge plans. The gas burner plan has a link to another page that has numerous gas forge plans.

Let us know if you have any more questions.
- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Tuesday, 11/14/00 06:33:07 GMT

According to Postman, M & H ARMITAGE first appears on Mouse Hole anvils in 1827, and stays in place until 1875.
That pins your date of manufacture to a 48 year period (if my math is correct! grin) How many handling holes does the anvil have, and where are they located. That would indicate whether it was manufactured early in the period above, or late.

Postman says (page 87) "Toward the end of the 19th century, when the Forge changed over to the three piece anvil process, a fourth handling hole was added to the front of the foot under the horn. Serial numbers were also added at this time on the front of the foot, but the feet remained the Old English style."

So the LACK of a serial number seems to indicate early in the 19th century, rather than late.
Paw Paw Wilson  <pawpaw at paw-paws-forge.com> - Tuesday, 11/14/00 06:43:49 GMT

I too had trouble finding 10 in. stove pipe for my forge. What I did was to go and see the local tin whacker aka tinsmith. Look in the yellow pages under "sheet metal".
Any sheet meatl fab shop should be able to do the job for you.
Mark  <dilligaf at net1plus.com> - Tuesday, 11/14/00 09:12:15 GMT

I have been given a large old sandstone type grinding wheel and have not been able to find drawings of a traditional foot treadle st-up for mounting it. Can anyone help please?
Jim Steele  <bushmansedge at hotmail.com> - Tuesday, 11/14/00 12:37:27 GMT

Thanks Guru!!
Nother Q. Im skipping the 1" facing. Have you any plans fer the fireplace insert?? I am dumping a lot of Dough on this thing and want it to be cool, no, hot. I can not afford the $2000. smackaroos the fire place shops want, And im a pretty good fab man, soon to be blacksmyth, so I'll build it meself!!
Well, any help helps!
Very cool site!! This place is awesome.

Thank you,
Scott From Garrettsville, Ohio.

P.S. I hear From all the Amish roud here, that they all liked Bush in the Election.

scott  <scott_wojtasik at hotmail.com> - Tuesday, 11/14/00 14:31:25 GMT

Thanks Guru!!
Nother Q. Im skipping the 1" facing. Have you any plans fer the fireplace insert?? I am dumping a lot of Dough on this thing and want it to be cool, no, hot. I can not afford the $2000. smackaroos the fire place shops want, And im a pretty good fab man, soon to be blacksmyth, so I'll build it meself!!
Well, any help helps!
Very cool site!! This place is awesome.

Thank you,
Scott From Garrettsville, Ohio.

P.S. I hear From all the Amish roud here, that they all liked Bush in the Election.

scott  <scott_wojtasik at hotmail.com> - Tuesday, 11/14/00 14:32:20 GMT

A source for 10" stove pipe (if it doesn't need to be code and you have good ventilation) is Air-conditioning duct. You can get galvanized duct at the home supply stores. It wasn't designed for this use but I am using 12" dia. for the stack on my forge without any problem.
Wayne Parris  <benthar at pacbell.net> - Tuesday, 11/14/00 14:47:59 GMT

Where does the name "blacksmith" come from?
bryan  <blintner at hotmail.com> - Tuesday, 11/14/00 15:42:49 GMT

Fireplace Insert: Scott, No plans. I was big into building these and wood stoves at the height of the craze in the late 1970's. Then everyone started asking about UL testing and EPA regs (on stoves). So I got out of it. Now I wish someone would send the EPA after those smudge-pot outdoor water heating furnaces everyone is putting in around here. They are too big so all they ever do is smoulder. Since they are outdoors and have a short stack no body worries about chimney fires from the TONS of creosote they generate.

The big problem with fireplace inserts is they must not be used like an air tight stove. Creasote buildup is a huge problem if the stack gases ever drop below a certain temperature (450°F I think).

We heated with a tin heater for years. Bedroom was colder than an icehouse in the AM. I repaced the tin heater with a Mother Earth News top loader. Too much smoke. So replaced that with a nice big (400 pounds) air tight wood stove with heat exchanger top. Too big. All it ever did was run on the lowest intake damper setting (just a crack). Had to clean out the pipe to the chimney weekly or more often. Had stack fires more times than I can remember. The only thing that kept them from burning down the house is that WE were there and the thing was REALLY air tight. Close the damper and the fire went out.

Now we heat with the most expensive heat there is. baseboard electric. However, we aren't in danger of setting the place on fire EVERY day.

So air tight is actually BAD. Control is good but most wood heaters are too big. Unless you can run them very hot there is a huge danger of a stack fire.
- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Tuesday, 11/14/00 15:43:40 GMT

Blacksmith: Bryan, Blacksmith come from two words,
black - the color of iron after it has been heated and cooled.

smith - from "smite" meaning to hit (with a hammer).

There are Goldsmiths, Silversmiths and Bronzesmiths. Whitesmiths used iron but after forging they removed all the black surface scale by filing or grinding. Whitesmiths often purchased work from the blacksmith and then finished it. Much whitesmith work included decorative edging created with a file.
- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Tuesday, 11/14/00 16:06:11 GMT

Mounting Grindstones: Jim, There is a great variety of method to this but I have never seen plans. I have seen TWO basic types. Comercial units that were made of light tubing and angle. They usualy had a spring mounted metal "tractor seat" and had dual treadles. Everything about these was light weight except the stone.

Then there are the primitive "home builts". Some of these look like a double saw horse and others like a shaving horse. I have seen these that were primitive to the point of running on a wooden shaft. The one I have had a huge blacksmith made shaft (about 1" in dia) with a square tapered end that took a hand crank. I fitted the plain end with a forged treadle crank made from a RR spike (my first forging). It was attached to a wood "bar" by a steel piece with a hole in it to fit the crank. A washer and cotter pin keeps it on. The wood bar attached to a wood treadle and the tredle to the horse frame using old door hinges. Crank throw was about 3" from center.

The whole worked great except that the stone had set at about a 10 degree angle to the shaft for many years of use. It was fitted to the shaft with wooden shims and wedges that had sagged and shifted. The stone was used that way for a VERY long time. When I mounted it I used concrete mortar on the square of the shaft. I know it was used crooked for a VERY long time because I have spent hours with a an old file and star dressers trying to true the stone. It still runs out about an inch. . but not right to left the way it did when I got it. . After a point it was "good enough". You have to match you motion to it like riding a horse but it does a very nice job.

So much for my misspent youth. . .
- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Tuesday, 11/14/00 16:24:22 GMT

More on Grindstone: Did I forget to mention that 90% of these were used with a hand crank? It was a two person operation. Usualy a small child was drafted to be the motive power.
- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Tuesday, 11/14/00 16:27:04 GMT

thanks guru. i've gotta hunch i'm not working fast enough. gotta start thinking in the fire more.
coondogger  <onehorse at mediaone.net> - Tuesday, 11/14/00 17:07:20 GMT

Speed: Coondogger, If you haven't thought out every move and walked through it cold to be sure all your tools are exactly where you need them and that the work is not going to fall off the anvil. . . then it is too soon to put the iron in the fire. There is VERY little spontanaity in blacksmith work. If you don't know EXACTLY what you are going to make then don't put the iron in the fire.

I'm not saying there is no creativity in the actual forge work, but it IS a very small part of the product. As you work you may decide to tighten a scroll or add chasing or a little more or less here or there. . . but you MUST have a plan before you start.

Speed comes with practice and the faster you get the more creative you can afford to be.
- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Tuesday, 11/14/00 17:54:09 GMT

I have a tool which I need to identify. I believe it to be possibly a tire shrinker. I am auctioning my grandfathers automotive and blacksmithing eguipment on Dec. 2nd. Where can I look for photo's to identify this piece.

Ron  <rondunn at scican.net> - Tuesday, 11/14/00 19:04:31 GMT

Good day, Guru. Well, I'm about to finalize my design for my coal forge. I started with Wimberley's pub "How to build a forge" where he describes building a long (5"x6"x18") trough using fire bricks in the cutoff upside-down top of a disgarded hot water heater. Then, I found your site's plans using large brake drums for the firepot without mentioning fire bricks. I have the water heater and have decided on a round firepot, rather than the trough. I could use the firebrick for another project if the water heater metal is thick enough to take the heat like a brake drum apparently will. So, what do you think? Should I try using the water heater (with or without the fire brick) or scrape the idea and go fine a large brake drum?? (I know from reading all the valuable info your site provides that the firepot can be make from many things, but, I'd like to do this just once)
Again, thanks for you help,
Jacque  <jacqueandpat at home.com> - Tuesday, 11/14/00 20:10:06 GMT

Tire shrinker: Ron, None here. Tire shrinkers are generaly very heavy, have toothed paws and long levers. Configurations vary. Mole was a popular brand. They have some value to wheelwright (if you can find one), but are low value colectors items (ie, they are collected if near free).

Feel free to list your auction on our Virtual Hammer-In page.
- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Tuesday, 11/14/00 20:31:57 GMT

Fire Pot: Jacque, check our NEWS, AFC edition (first one). The Montgomery group forging station has four forges built on a trailer. The forges are all made from the bell end of a hot water heater tank. These are cut just beyond the weld to make a dish about 4 to 6" deep. Then at the center a deeper "fire pot" is fabricated in the form of a truncated pyramid.

If kept dry and clean the tank metal is heavy enough to last for years. Rust is a greater enemy than heat. The thin steel cools quickly. You have to build a REALLY big fire to cause overheating problems in the firepot.

I've used bricks in metal forges for spacers, rests and adjusting the pot depth. But never for heat resistance.
- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Tuesday, 11/14/00 20:39:39 GMT

FIRE POTS:Thanks for the info, Guru - but - I'm not following you to the 'four forges' properly. I went to NEWS, found the 'ring' that led me to the Alabama group, assuming that's what AFC stands for. I searched their site, but, couldn't locate the 'four forges'. Obviously, I'm doin' somethin' wrong. A little more guidence, please??
Jacque  <jacqueandpat at home.com> - Tuesday, 11/14/00 22:58:18 GMT

Betsy--If you are in a rural or semi rural area check out a grain storage builder. They sometimes tear down outdated graineries. Ask if they have any used 10" grain legs they would sell reasonably. It's heavier than stove pipe and you may be able to get what you need in one piece. Worth a shot.
kid  <xxx> - Wednesday, 11/15/00 01:08:59 GMT

Lost Forges: Jacque, It is in one of the articles. . Goto the INDEX toward the top

Vol 6, AFC Edition,

Page 2, INDEX, Page 9, Montgomery Group Forge

You have to goto page two to find the index with page 9 listed. I've changed this system on the newer NEWS and it has the index on the main page. . .
- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Wednesday, 11/15/00 02:30:24 GMT

Good evening, Guru. Thanks for the directions to the AFC forges. I bet folks seeing that trailer goin' down the road do a double take! After reading the comments, I will definately use the firebricks in my forge. Which leads to yet another question. I was planning on using 1" pipe to build the air supply system (the tuyere??). My planned fire can be about 15" diameter, 3-4" deep, max. Do you think 1" will let me get enough air to the fire? 1 1/2"? maybe 2"??
I also just learned from this research that this is a commerical "for profit" site. After learning that, I browsed the adverts. Maybe you ought to say something about that on your home page (or did I miss it?). Anyway,
Thanks, again, for your input.
Jacque  <jacqueandpat at home.com> - Wednesday, 11/15/00 03:25:23 GMT

The book entitled Blacksmiths' and Farriers' Tools at Shelburne Museum, published by (and available from, I think) Shelburne Museum, Inc., of Shelburne, Vermont 05482, shows several nifty old tire shrinkers. This book is a trove of good pix, information and lore. Don't you give that thing away if that's what it is: tire shrinkers can go for mucho dinero. It's like everything else, a matter of finding the right fool.
Cracked Anvil  <cracked at anvilfire.com> - Wednesday, 11/15/00 05:04:19 GMT

Bad News: Blacksmiths' and Farriers' Tools at Shelburne Museum has been out of print for quite a few years and there are (as of last year) no plans to reprint it.
- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Wednesday, 11/15/00 05:31:27 GMT

1" might be too small. My firepot(storebought) has a 3 in input line
Ralph  <ralphd at jps.net> - Wednesday, 11/15/00 06:08:39 GMT

Air Inlet: Jacque, 1" will work for a very small forge but requires high pressure for a "standard" size forge. Most are 2" to 3" diameter. If you choke down a small blower to that size the head (back pressure) will reduce the flow too much.

"For Profit" Well there haven't been any (profits) for 3 years. . . but I would think the banners would make it obvious. That's not to say that there hasn't been some income. This is not a low cost hobby operation. The server costs alone are as much as a car payment.

Thanks for noticing.

- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Wednesday, 11/15/00 06:16:10 GMT

good guru;
The traditional way to true up those big old grindstones is with a chisel, a point tool ( bullprick) and a hammer. The stone is marked and chipped to shape. The old guy said "work into the stone's strength" by chiseling towards the greatest mass so that you can control the chip size. The angle of the point or chisel is pretty flat resulting in an almost skipping blow that removes a flat chip. It is easy to get impatient and cut too deep. as you get closer to true, the chips need to get smaller. Last, my policy is, always hit the same thumb.
Pete F - Wednesday, 11/15/00 08:45:33 GMT

Thanks for the help. The 3" crank throw is a vital bit of info. 2'4" diameter should make it a useful tool and at his time I plan a wooden saw horse style frame with galvanised water bath. Is it okay to leave 1/2 the wheel wet? I did plant to empty after use but am none the less interested.
Jim Steele  <bushmansedge at hotmail.com> - Wednesday, 11/15/00 12:54:30 GMT

I am no expert on the subject but all of the old stones I have seen were out of round, badly, and I was told that it was due to leaving the stone in water. It seems that the wet part isn't as "durable" as the dry part and wears away faster. I don't know for sure if this is true, but that is the tall tale told to me.
Wayne Parris  <benthar at pacbell.net> - Wednesday, 11/15/00 14:22:05 GMT


I have to echo Wayne's comment about not being an expert, but it seems to me that letting the wheel soak in water would allow the wather to penetrate the wheel and weaken the molecular bonds between the individual grains of stone. Then when used the stone would be softer on the wet spot. Seems to me that a trickle of water at the top of the stone, collected in the tank at the bottom and allowed to run off would work better. Turn the water on to use the wheel, turn it off when not in use.
Paw Paw Wilson  <pawpaw at paw-paws-forge.com> - Wednesday, 11/15/00 14:46:51 GMT

Wet Wheel: Jim, Wayne is right, the wet side is also heavier and causes the wheel to run out of balance. The trough is to catch water. Water should be applied from a can, container or pipe that applies the water just above where the tool is ground. If the wheel is emersed then the water sprays off in your face as the wheel comes toward you. Some wheels are run emmersed but that requires a full splash guard. The tank should be setup so that it can be lowered when not in use.

The crank travel is not that critical. I adjusted the actual treadle stroke by where I attached the connecting rod to the tredle. Too close to the pivot and there is too much travel. Mine is attached about half way down the tredle a little ways in front of my foot.

Truing stones That is something I know NOW but when I was 16 years old things like mill pics and stone chisles were fuzzy theoretical things. For dressing tool grinders there is nothing that compares to a diamond. If you don't have one then it is likely that you can't do a proper job of grinding drill and lathe bits. Mounted industrial diamonds are relatively inexpensive (only a little more than a star wheel dresser). The DO wear so I avoided using mine on the old wet stone and reserve it for the surface grinder and tool grinder. . .
- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Wednesday, 11/15/00 15:02:53 GMT

well, then, shucks, a man's got to do what any right-thinking American would do: get it through
inter-library loan and run it through a Xerox machine. A lot cheaper than buying it off some used book monger.
Cracked Anvil  <cracked at anvilfire.com> - Wednesday, 11/15/00 15:11:53 GMT

Blacksmiths' and Farriers' Tools at Shelburne Museum

I found it at abebooks.com. They show four copies ranging in price from $65 USD to $120 USD.

Cracked's method is looking better and better! (grin)
Paw Paw Wilson  <pawpaw at paw-paws-forge.com> - Wednesday, 11/15/00 15:43:39 GMT

I am interested in adding A brake similar to the one in Dave Manzers video to my 50# LG and I am wondering about the wisdom of drilling and tapping some holes in the casting.
aaron  <ironbyaaron at yahoo.com> - Wednesday, 11/15/00 16:36:46 GMT

Hello, I am a looking for information on techniques
for using a portable bench bender I have recently purchased
There are no instructions with it. I have quite a bit of
experience on bending pipe (also being an electrician) but
need some help on this bender. I have moderate experience
with the Ironwork, Have taken classes in welding (electric
and Oxy- acet) Any Ideas on where I may get a video or a
good refrence Book on this topic would be greatly appreciated. This tool is suppose to be able to scroll HR
steel and make ornamental #s from a-z, All I have figured out
so far is to make right anglwe bends and a circle.
Thanks much for any help you may be able to offer.

Tim Alexander  <talexa7466 at aol.com> - Wednesday, 11/15/00 17:00:03 GMT

AAron, there is no problem drilling the casting on your LG as long as it's NOT in main structural area. Just be sure you drill the hole all the way through. Don't drill half way! That would leave the hole susceptible to cracking.
Bruce Wallace  <WalmetaLwk at aol.com> - Wednesday, 11/15/00 17:16:50 GMT

Drilling Holes in Machinery: Aaron, Bruce is sort of right. It depends on where you are drilling/taping. Although it is commonly done holes should not be drilled and taped in the "C" portion of the frame. Clean chamfered through holes are best. They should be no closer than 3"-4" from edges.

One common method to attach brackets to LG's is to use the bearing bolts. Extended bolts with lock nuts should be used

Generaly it is safe to drill and tap small 1/4" or 5/16" holes but they should be in low stress areas and not near edges. Brackets should also be anchored at two points so that a bending moment cannot be applied to the bolt. I lot depends on your sense of design/engineering. There are things you DO and things you DON'T. Its impossible to explain every case.
- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Wednesday, 11/15/00 17:52:03 GMT

Portable Bender: Tim, There are dozens of types. If its an old out of production bender you won't find any info. If its a Hossfeld bender they are still in production and the operating manual is somewhat helpful.

The problem with most benders is that they need dies for every size or work variation (like different size bending hickies). Many benders come with a couple general purpose dies and all the rest are extra. Unless you are a high production operation or government funded complete die sets are prohibitively expensive.

We have a bender article on the 21st Century page that shows custom benders and jigs. There are also photos of two commercial benders. The Hossfeld has a little home built scroll jig on it. There is also an article on the iForge page on benders and scroll jigs.

Let us know the type/brand bender and we may be more helpful (see the discussion about scroll jigs above).
- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Wednesday, 11/15/00 18:03:04 GMT

sir. went to a trade show today. Here are some interesting sites that relate to your Art.
The fsb company makes cool benders, relating to the above question. Hoodlum makes the coolest welding helmets i've ever seen.
Thanks guru.
scott  <scott_wojtasik at hotmail.com> - Wednesday, 11/15/00 21:45:26 GMT

Hello Guru.. My son has a question for you.We cannot find the answer in any of my books..Its part of his Millwright course..Q: Operate injector torches with pressures as low as: a- 6oz/in [squared] B- 9OZ/IN{SQUARED} c- 2 psi d- 7 psi..which is the correct one..
Thanks Barney from Canada North Bay
Barney  <barney at vianet.on.ca> - Wednesday, 11/15/00 22:05:36 GMT

Dear Guru,

I'm a 13 year old kid that doesn't know jack about blacksmithing. I'm so eger learning to become a blacksmith because I'm really interested into the dark ages.
I tried to make a cheap sword by just using a plane old camp fire, an iron bar, and a hammer. It's still incomplete but, then I decided to look up on the internet and see what I was doing wrong. Turned out that I was doing pretty much everyhthing wrong! But, I looked up your supply list to see what I need. I printed it out, but the one thing I can't understand is how in the world can you build a furnace?

Shanaun Green
Shanaun   <scrapper6g at earthlink.net> - Wednesday, 11/15/00 23:21:45 GMT

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