WELCOME to the anvilfire Guru's Den

THIS is a forum for questions and answers about blacksmithing and general metalworking. Ask the Guru any reasonable question and he or one of his helpers will answer your question, find someone that can, OR research the question for you. This is an archive of posts from January 8 - 15, 2001 on the Guru's Den
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I'm a self taught smith based in Spain, with 2-3 years experience. I would welcome any information you can give me on flypresses. I have heard that they can be very useful but I'm not quite sure for what!
I'd like to know how they are used, what sizes are useful,where I could find more info (my books don't mention them)etc. Thanks, Adam
Adam Hayes  <adam at metalicarte.com> - Sunday, 01/07/01 20:53:58 GMT

Flypress: Adam, A Flypress is an unusual machine. Its flywheel drives a screw which applys force to the work. What is unusual is that the flywheel is stalled and reversed on every stroke. This applies tremondous force.

Generaly flypresses are used for closed die work and are heavily used in the silver plate industry. Small ones are operated manualy via a pivoting arm that hangs off the flywheel. Larger ones are motor driven via friction wheels that bear against the flywheel.

Flypresses have been more popular for general work in Europe than in North America. We have a brief article about them with images on our Power hammer Page.
- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Monday, 01/08/01 00:29:57 GMT

Welding references: Miller welding equipment company-- 1-800-4A-MILLER or www. MillerWelds.com-- puts out several extremely handy slide-guides for stick-- it gives polarity, amps per type and size of most commonly-used rods-- and (I think) for MIG and TIG, too, and also offers a good textbook on MIG with info pertinent to the general process, not just their gear. You cannot beat the Lincoln arc "procedure handbook," including the ancient ones (mine is 1941 and is still germane) as a general reference covering just about everything under the sun. Weleding Skills and Practices, by Giachino, Weeks and Brune is wonderful for all types. And for oxy-acetylene, The Art of Welding, by W.A. Vause, Argus Books, 1985 and reprinted at least up until 1993, is reallllly good, has some worthwhile tips on fabrication set-up, especially in avoiding thermal warpage. You remember old Thermie, don't you? Big star in the 40s. Lindsay or Centaur, I forget which, has it.
Cracked Anvil  <cracked at anvilfire.com> - Monday, 01/08/01 00:33:16 GMT

more on welding aids: checked, and Miller indeed puts out slide-guides for TIG and MIG. Also, Harris publishes handy-dandy little cards with tip sizes, recommended pressures for oxy-acetylene, by size of material. Airco, Victor, Linde all do similar guides. Many of these manufacturers maintain tech staffs with boffins standing by to be helpful-- and they are.
Cracked Anvil  <cracked at anvilfire.com> - Monday, 01/08/01 02:00:39 GMT

Slip Charts: Love em' Must not rate with the right people. . . I have them for all types of things but not welding. Most of these are given away as freebies but a few are worth paying for. The absolute handiest slip charts I have as a machine designer are the Hollow Chrome socket head bolt and screw charts. It has all the standard socket head cap screw (Allen) dimensions as well as tap and clearance drill sizes. However, when we wanted them for the entire office our fastener dealer couldn't even get them and we ended up paying for them. . It was worth it.
- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Monday, 01/08/01 03:58:33 GMT

Miller's arc slide-guide/slip-chart is damned good. It ought to be a promotional freebie, but it ain't. Costs a buck or so. If your local welding boutique doesn't have 'em, and given the usual level of the old ferocious competitive urge to keep the customers happy, they well may not, you can get it/them from Miller on the old plastique.
Cracked Anvil  <cracked at anvilfire.com> - Monday, 01/08/01 05:52:22 GMT

Thanks grandpa and guru for your valuable information and SAFETY advice for the use of acids and types of material used for making damascus.Its alwase good to get good info but its so much better to get the information and know the dangers that may be involved Thanks again.
Guy  <tazmaniak_int at hotmail.com> - Monday, 01/08/01 11:33:59 GMT

Guru, Just curious, could you list a few of the upcoming demonstrations on the Iforge page. or any ideas for upcoming demos.
AdamSmith - Monday, 01/08/01 14:49:38 GMT

Demos: Adam, NO. Sorry. Most of the time WE don't know until the day before and when *I* do the demo the drawings generaly don't exist until after noon the day of the demo. . . However, we have last weeks that wasn't quite ready that is going to be done THIS week. JJ is doing a "Ring Rose". A different kind of forged rose.

Demos are determined by the demonstrator. They are almost always something they have made and can explain well. We are going to try to catch up on some more of the basics. Riveting is one idea that came up recently. I'm also going to do my series of fire place handles. All original designs that I no longer produce so I'm going to give them away. . .

Anyone that wants to volunteer to do a demo may. We always need new demonstrators and new ideas.
- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Monday, 01/08/01 16:03:15 GMT

Hi Guru,
I have a question regarding welding of galvanized metal. I am a firefighter and I was working a welding site where they were welding galvanized steel sheets to the metal beams of a library so that lightweight concrete may be poured on them. The welders gave me a dust mask to wear and said to wear it since the fumes can be nasty. I worked for 8 hours on a Friday. Saturday I felt lousy, had a terrible cough,and a 102.5 temperature. I don't know if it's coincidence that I just have the flu or could it be the gases from the welding. If it is the later, are there any concerns that I should have about this or will it just clear up. It is now Monday and I still feel lousy but my temperature is down to 101. Thanks for any info or advice you can give me.
Sincerely, John
John Weber  <theewebers at earthlink.net> - Monday, 01/08/01 17:58:15 GMT

Zinc Fever: John, It sounds like you MAY have zinc fever. If the "dust mask" was a typical hospital type mask then it was very poor protection. The only way to tell is to see a doctor as soon as possible, tell him what you MAY have been exposed to and have blood tests. You should also report the problem to your employer. IF the tests show metal posioning then Workman's Comp should cover the visit and any treatment plus lost time.

I'm not an expert on zinc poisoning but I know that repeat exposure can be a problem. Generaly the effects of zinc poisioning go away over time.
- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Monday, 01/08/01 18:55:56 GMT

Inhalation Fever: http://www.haz-map.com/inhalati.htm

Symptoms: flu-like illness with a metallic taste in the mouth, throat irritation and dry cough;

Signs: leucocytosis (high white blood cell count) is
common; normal chest x-ray; Onset after exposure: 3-10 hours; Heavy exposure to: zinc oxide fume or dust, e.g., after welding or flame cutting of galvanized steel, high
temperature zinc coating processes or metal pouring in
brass foundries; (Brass is an alloy of copper and zinc.)

Resolution: spontaneously within 48 hours;

Comments: After an episode, there is a temporary period of tolerance for a day or two afterwards, hence the name Monday morning fever.

This link has specifics. Testing appears to be difficult. I'd print this a take it to your doctor. www.atsdr.cdc.gov/ToxProfiles/phs8925.html
- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Monday, 01/08/01 19:16:39 GMT

I work for a high-end furniture design firm. We have a small metal side table and a wall sconce in our line made of wrought iron. One of the finishes we offer is blackened (so that it looks like old wrought iron). However, now that it is being ordered with the blackened finish, we don't know how to blacken correctly. At the moment, we are using Black Stove Polish from Rutland Products. This does not give the ideal blackened look and must be sprayed with lacquer so as not to rub off. My boss does not like the lacquer finish because it is too shiny. Are there any suggestions on what to use for blackening? Can the layman use this or are lots of chemicals involved?

Jen Manning  <jenmanning at hotmail.com> - Monday, 01/08/01 20:47:33 GMT

Black Finish: Jen, The "natural" black finish on iron and steel is scale produced by the high temperature of the forge. This, wirebrushed with a little wax is a beautiful (but temporary) finish that is difficult to copy. It is difficult to reproduce on bright or cold finished steel.

Stove black and "bar-b-que" black paint have the problem that the are designed for high temperature and have little binder and the pigment is graphite. After the binder completely dries the paint "chalks" (black graphite in this case).

If you are lacquering the parts now your best bet is to use a flat black laquer. A "mars" black (iron oxide) with some light blue to brighten it a little will be the closest you can get to the real thing.

"Parkerizing" is a flat black chemicaly induced finish but it requires harsh chemicals and like all gun blues and oxide finishes requires regular cleaning and oiling to prevent rust.
- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Monday, 01/08/01 21:18:53 GMT



JACK W. MARKS - Monday, 01/08/01 21:25:27 GMT

JACK W. MARKS  <jack_marks at lord.com> - Monday, 01/08/01 21:35:19 GMT

Hello! If I want to forge a spear head that will end up 3" wide at the base and 11" long with a cross section of approx 1/2" at the thickest part of the spine, what size stock would you recommend using? I am leaning towards 1"x2" flat stock.
Any suggestions?
Anradan  <anradanmacewan at sk.sympatico.ca> - Monday, 01/08/01 21:35:52 GMT

Do you have an air source? Have to have an air source to get coal to forging temps.....
Ralph  <ralphd at jps.net> - Monday, 01/08/01 22:07:47 GMT

COAL: Jack, It sounds like you may have bought some "hard" coal, anthracite. It burns but requires a deep bed and constant air. It is not recommended for smithing except as a last resort. Paw-Paw lives in Winston-Salem and should be able to point you to good coal there. Otherwise contact NC-ABANA. . . I'd send you to their web-site but I believe it is still off-line. .

However, the problem IS that most local coal dealers existed to supply domestic and commercial users. As people convert to the more convienient gas, oil or electric heat the local coal dealers are dissapearing. It will not be too long before there are no local coal dealers and all smithing coal will need to be purchased from dealers like Bruce Wallace or Centaur Forge and be shipped by truck.

OBTW- AllCAPS is considered yelling on the net. . .
- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Monday, 01/08/01 22:13:43 GMT

Spear Head: Anradan, You have not given enough information. However, *I* would start a piece 1/2" by 1-1/2". No more material than necessary. That will produce the cross section you described.

You said nothing about the mounting. Socketed, tang or wrapped like a stone point?
- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Monday, 01/08/01 22:19:48 GMT

Sorry, socketed tang. I'm not worried about the tand so much as the head. Thanks for the info, this is bigger than most of my projects.
Anradan - Monday, 01/08/01 22:30:04 GMT

Spear Head: Anradan, I just drew an end view. Its a diamond. Each half is a triangle. The area of each triangle is a rectangle half the height of the triangle. Each side of the 3" wide blade is 1-1/2" and a rectangle to make the triangle is 3/4" wide. . . EASY. . I should have explained it the first time.

If there is any hollow to the sides of the blade it will make up for the little scale losses. Generaly as I work something with this much of a diamond section I work some stock toward the ridge so there is no need to start with extra material. If you are woried about it try to find 5/8" stock or live with a possibly 7/16" thick finished part.
- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Monday, 01/08/01 23:24:41 GMT

Guru and Friends,
Thanks so much for your tips on welding books, I have taken a number of classes, just never remember all the setting off the top of my head. Safety is a high priority of mine, which leads me to my next question. Is there a respirator you would recommend, that I can wear under my welding helmet? Is there one that would work well for most mild steel applications, but that I could also use on the occasions that I weld bronze and\or aluminum, or do I need a seperate one for those more toxic procedures? Thanks for your help! Vulcanetta
Erika a.k.a Vulcanetta  <estrecker at hotmail.com> - Tuesday, 01/09/01 01:12:34 GMT

Can't think of the brand name, but welding supply houses carry a welding respirator that has a charcoal filter.Made to fit under shield.
Check your supplier.
Steve  <psrrfr> - Tuesday, 01/09/01 01:17:11 GMT

Respirator vs. Ventilation: Erika, Good ventilation is easier to achive than a good working respirator. For a respirator to have any effect it must seal snuggly against your face. A properly fitted respirator makes it slightly more difficult to breath. Industries that commonly require respirator use also test their employees to be sure they are healthy enough to wear a respirator.

There are different filters for different purposes. Paper filters for particulates. Charcoal filters for gases and fumes. Both need to be regularly replaced.

A window fan blowing the smoke away from the work area is often all you need. In other cases a small blower and hose can be used. Often welding benches are built with a bar grating top and exhaust fan under the bench. An upside down "hood" also collects the weld spatter. In other cases good general shop ventilation is enough. Think about it. Respirators are usualy a last resort.
- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Tuesday, 01/09/01 01:58:47 GMT

Dear Guru,
I am an experienced artist-blacksmith. I am building some outdoor lanterns and would like to incorporate Mica into the shades. I know nothing about Mica.
Would like to know where to obtain it, how to work it (cutting, shaping, etc....) and any other wisdoms you can provide me with.

Many Thanks,
John Phillips
John Phillips  <phillipsmetal at att.net> - Tuesday, 01/09/01 06:55:48 GMT

this website was a very big help I liked it alot
nancy paiva  <nancypaiva at look.ca> - Tuesday, 01/09/01 12:37:04 GMT

John, Mica, The Cleveland Mica Co.. Cleveland Ohio has sheets of mica. Sorry don't have the number. Tim Cisneros
The Forgeworks
218 Forest View Dr.
SSF CA 94080
Business phone: 415-722-7734
Home: 650-583-6585
email: blacksmith at theforgeworks.com
web site: www.theforgeworks.com
Tim Cisneros  <blacksmith at theforgeworks.com> - Tuesday, 01/09/01 14:35:39 GMT

Willson makes a nifty welding respirator called a Trimweld, fits nicely under an arc helmet. Their tech dept. is helpful on what filters block what fumes.
Cracked Anvil  <cracked at anvilfire.com> - Tuesday, 01/09/01 15:18:40 GMT

Oops. The Trimweld may not still be available, come to think of it. I replaced mine-- the rubberoid plastic gets tacky after a year or so-- with a Willson Premier 6000 series, which is what the nice lady at Willson recommended for welding. Get the flat filters for a better fit under the helmet. If your local welding boutique, with its dynamic marketing and its ceaseless quest to make you happy, never heard of respirators, and can't be bothered, call Willson direct. Their (Dalloz safety) 800 number is 977-9177. Tell 'em I said to buy an ad on Anvilfire. Or, hey, the MSC catalog has pages and pages of respirators. And they have techs just waiting to help with advice on what does what, will call the manufacturer in a jiffy if need be. Call 'em at 800-645-7270. Look 'em up at www.mscdirect.com and: tell 'em I said to advertise their stuff on Anvilfire.
Cracked Anvil  <cracked at anvilfire.com> - Tuesday, 01/09/01 15:53:02 GMT

Maybe antracite is a "last resort" when you have bituminous coal, but itīs not THAT bad. You get used to it. If hard coal gets enough air it burns like hellfire in the hot spot and cokes nicely outside the center-fire.
Olle Andersson  <utgaardaolle at ebox.tninet.se> - Tuesday, 01/09/01 16:08:05 GMT

MICA: John, If Tim's source doesn't work out there are several others listed in Thomas Register. I'll look them up if you need.

Nancy, Thank you. :)

Anthacite Olle, A fellow from Nova Scotia wrote me asking about anthracite. He said that was all they had localy and that was what the old smiths used. But all he ever read about was soft coal. I told him you make use of what is available and go along with tradition.

Anthracite works, Bituminous is better. In most of the Eastern U.S. there is no excuse for using anything but the best. However, local suppliers are fading away and folks often use what is easy to get (or cheap).
- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Tuesday, 01/09/01 16:28:49 GMT

Guru, I was reminded about two questions I often get when demonstrating, but I havenīt found the answer to yet, mostly because they are beside the point in blacksmithing.

1. How hot is the fire? (No idea. I can tell you the temperature of the steel, though.)
2. Coal gets hotter than charcoal, doesnīt it? (I canīt tell the difference, I prefer the clean charcoal-fire, but thatīs for other reasons)

What should I tell the audience?
Olle Andersson  <utgaardaolle at ebox.tninet.se> - Tuesday, 01/09/01 16:49:40 GMT

Olle: Re: your post of 01/09/01 15:08:05 GMT. antracite coal does not "coke", If the coal your are referring to "cokes", then it is bituminus(soft).
grandpa  <darylmeier at aol.com> - Tuesday, 01/09/01 17:44:04 GMT

Whilst (love that word, love it!) gearing up at the bodgers' boutique, don't forget the old earmuffs. Those little plugs don't quite do it. Lotsa nasty vibes come in right through the skull. No kidding. And the plugs don't stop it. Once you lose the aural capability it is gone. I know, I know, tough guys don't wear masks. Or earmuffs. (One guy told me he thinks grinder dust damage is all in the mind!) Anybody price a lung lately? Or a good hearing aid? Eh? What say?
Cracked Anvil  <cracked at anvilfire.com> - Tuesday, 01/09/01 17:50:37 GMT

Thx Guru, heh, when i get a bit older I'd be happy to do a demo for anvilfire, But..well, there are very few things i can produce at a demonstration quality, there are even fewer that would interest most folks.

by the way, if anyone is interested, ill be in the pub all day today(have a 103 deg fever, doc sais its flu) since daytime tv doesnt agree with me.
AdamSmith - Tuesday, 01/09/01 18:38:04 GMT

Cracked Anvil, Is it just me that people such as that Grinder dust guy you mentioned previously, have no business in a business where any preventable accidents can occur(society)?

Im a "foolish teenager"(As the old timer at lowes calls me) and i wear safety gogles, face shield, earplugs under earmuffs(although i have a way of sneaking headphones in there for music:).
Adam Smith - Tuesday, 01/09/01 18:41:42 GMT

Anthracite: Well, anthracite actually does coke...somewhat. It does burn out what little volatiles it has but, unlike bituminous, it doesn't consolidate in large carbonaceous, "foamy" lumps. No, it just sits there as little gray lumps and chips, intermingled with little brown clinkers and little white ashes, which makes it aweful to clean and sort after a work session.

Nancy: Glad to see women getting interested and involved.

Cracked: Sometimes my wife gets tired of repeating the lines from the evening news. I'm wearing the same "ear muff" protectors in the forge as I use on the shooting range and they work just fine. My classical music station comes right through (turned up), but the hammering is much muted. Especially important when doing cold work, and still useful for the whine of power drill and sabre saws. This time of year they even keep my ears warm. I don't need the ring of the anvil, it's built in! I think it's high E, but it could be F.

Visit your National Parks: www.nps.gov

Go viking with us: www.wam.umd.edu/~eowyn/Longship/

Bruce Blackistone (Atli)  <asylum at us.HSAnet.net> - Tuesday, 01/09/01 18:49:24 GMT

Bruce, it seems like you have some experience from my kind of coal. (grin)
Iīm not sure if my coal is technically anthracite, I only know itīs hard as the concrete floor and has a shiny, glassy surface, I also donīt know if it cokes properly, only that it has an intermediate stage between "coal" and "clinker".
Olle Andersson - Tuesday, 01/09/01 19:10:34 GMT

oops I allmost wrote ... at anvilfire.com again guru, must watch out.
Olle. i use antracite sometimes. it looks and handles just like you and Atli describe. It is somewhere between charcoal and coal in the burning but more to the charcoal in the cleaningout department, oh and it lasts 3-5times longer than charcoal..

Some types of charcoal actually coke better than antracite, to be precise the ones left over after making wood tar (they never quite leave all of it). it was what the smiths upp here prefered, and after that Alder (alnus glutinosa) and Rönn (sorbus aucuparia) in that order.
thats me for now.
OErjan  <pokerbacken at angelfire.com> - Tuesday, 01/09/01 20:08:15 GMT

N2u42nit  < at aol.com> - Tuesday, 01/09/01 20:27:04 GMT

Coal Fire Temperature: Olle, I tried to find this the other day and had no luck. I know it is more than high enough to melt steel (and set it on fire). A would say "slightly over 3,000°F (1650°C)"

There must be 500 web sites dedicated to COAL and not a single one has this relatively simple fact! A company that makes accustical pyrometers for coal plant use designs them to have a maximum range up to 4,000°F (2,200°C) which is somwhere well beyond the normal use.

Well. . I'm off to do some more research. I looked in my technical library. . . I'll try the family encyclopedia. . . This is STUPID!
- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Tuesday, 01/09/01 20:57:51 GMT

I have a dumb question, but I am wondering if you prefer to draw out over the edge of the anvil, or the tumbling method? ( which do you think is faster)? thanks Steve
Steve C  <coolcrabster at aol.com> - Tuesday, 01/09/01 22:12:06 GMT

I am interested in making a plaster cast which I will then pour hot metal into to form a relief. Will copper or brass get hot enough in my oven to liquify? Are there any other metals that will liquify at such low temps that you could recommend?
Greg  <ghessinger at carolina.rr.com> - Tuesday, 01/09/01 22:17:44 GMT

Coal fire temp: Maybe the better way to ask the question is what is the "maximum fire temperature" Blast air above what is necessary will reduce the fire temperature because it is heated by the fire, but is more than what is necessary to burn the available fuel. Hmmm... makes one wonder how hot an "oxygen only" blast coal fire would be.

I can't find the max temp either. I suspect about 3500. Coal gas is about 3800 F. Anyone have a calibrated optical pyrometer?

Anthracite coking: Steel makers would add a percentage of anthracite to the bituminous coal charge in coke ovens. I don't know how much or why. Smithing fires are much different than coking ovens anyway.

Ear plugs when welding: Are an excellent idea. Muffs don't seem to work well with the helmet. Take it from experience that you do not want to burn a hole in your ear drum from a hot bouncy ball. Very much pain. More pain than anything else I have experienced. And then you get to go through it again when the ear doctor cuts up the drum to try to get it to heal shut since the hot ball cauterized the hole. But it is kind of fun to blow a kleenex ball out of your ear at cocktail parties when you blow your nose. Gets people wondering about you if they haven't started already.
Tony  <tca_b at milwpc.com> - Tuesday, 01/09/01 22:49:22 GMT

BILL CHAMBERS  <BCHAMBERS at AJMONIER.COM> - Tuesday, 01/09/01 23:38:14 GMT

Drawing out: Steve, There is work you do on corners but NOT drawing out. The blows are too hard and you are likely to chip the anvil. If you need to concentrate the force use the pien of your hammer, a fuller or the horn of the anvil. Do not use the horn on OLD wrought anvils where the horn is welded on. . Unless you like hornless anvils.

Anvil fullers to fit the hardy hole come in a varity of radiuses and speed up drawing out. You can also do it over a piece of round rod laying or tied to the anvil.
- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Wednesday, 01/10/01 01:09:27 GMT

Metlting Metal: Greg, What kind of oven? If you are talking kitchen oven, NO. There are special low temperature melting alloys that will melt as low as body temperature. . .

Your kitchen oven doesn't get hot enough to dry the plaster prior to pouring metal in the mold. That takes 1100-1300°F (or so). This is called "calcining". It is VERY important to calcine plaster molds. Otherwise steam liberated from the plaster may cause the hot metal to splatter. . . NOT GOOD!

The lowest temperature common casting alloy is Zamak, Zinc aluminium alloy. Melts at 800°F and is poured at 950°F.

If you want to reproduce your plaster cast in something substantial other than metal you can use concrete, polyester or epoxy resin and fibreglass, or even auto body filler.

In both methods below the mold will be lost. However it will come off cleaner if you lacquer it and then use a slury of ivory soap as a parting agent (let it dry).

Auto body filler is polyester resin with a filler, usualy glass powder. . . previously marble powder. It can be mixed in small batches and worked into your mold. After getting one covering layer you can reinforce it with wire screen or fibreglass. The reinforcement is fitted into the rough surface and then more filler worked through it (the Dempsey method). Make the surface as uniform as possible so you can use another layer of reinforcement if necessary.

The same method is used with the resins except that they are liquid and a lot messier. A couple coats are applied and then fibreglass and resin. Depending on the size of the work more layers may be required up to about 5-6 max.
- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Wednesday, 01/10/01 01:42:21 GMT

I want to twist together an aluminum rod and a piece of rebar of approximately the same diameter, sort of like two snakes intertwining. Can I put them in the fire together or will the aluminum start to melt/burn before the rebar gets hot enough to bend? I realize that the make-up of rebar isn't standard, but a general idea would help. I'm planning to use a long enough fire for the entire rod to be heated at once.

I'm an absolute beginner, so keep it simple please.


Al  <agarrard at rmy.emory.edu> - Wednesday, 01/10/01 07:43:02 GMT

Al. YES!! sorry but AL melts about when steel gets to smithing temp. depending on aloy, from 600-750*C and I rarely let steel below 700*C when bending.
OErjan  <pokerbacken at angelfire.com> - Wednesday, 01/10/01 08:41:11 GMT

Recently I thought I was out of acetylene. My Tank pressure read "0" but I was still able to get 5# pressure on the regulated pressure read out. I went to my supplier and got a new tank and when I put the regulator on lo and behold, the tank pressure still read "0". With the introduction of the least bit of oxygen the torch whistles and blows out. My shop has NO Heat. could it be that the regulator is frozen ? We have had sustained temps below 0 here this winter. Or could it be that the regulator or gauge need to be rebuilt or replaced ? Any thoughts ?
Mark   <dilligaf at net1plus.com> - Wednesday, 01/10/01 09:14:12 GMT

Please don't tell me I am full of beans or imagining this. I have been sharpening knives for about 40 years now. (Not professionally!) I am certain in my own mind that the steel will sharpen better during certain parts of the month. I have several favorite kitchen knives as well as the usual pocketknives etc. At times, no amount of work will bring up a decent edge. A week or so later and the same knife comes out very sharp indeed. I use a Lansky sharpening system (the old one with stones) and so can safely say that I have eliminated a lot of the variables.

What are your thoughts on this metallurgical conundrum?
Spielzeug  <spielzeug at terraworld.net> - Wednesday, 01/10/01 11:43:38 GMT

Bad Readings: Mark, It sounds like your high pressure fuel gauge has failed or has frozen moisture in it. Ambient shop temperature DOES make a difference but I don't know at what temperature acetylene cylinders fail to work. A fresh one should work. . . Ask your supplier if the cylinder should work in the ambient temperature of your unheated shop. . it may not.

Several things come to mind. Do you blow out the cylinder fittings before attaching the regulator? Small amounts of dirt can clog the regulator. Some regulators have filters in the cylinder attachment stem, have you looked at it? Have you tried adjusting the regulator upward? If all you read on the low pressure gauge is the very low reading then that MAY be accurate.

Gauge accuracy is given as a percentage (usualy 3%) of the high end of the scale. That means that a 300 PSI gauge many be off 9 PSI an be within specs. The low pressure gauge with a range of 30 PSI can be off 1 PSI. So the total error on your regulator may be 10 PSI. More than enough for one gauge to read 0 while the other reads 5.

Try cracking the valve open on the cylinder for a brief moment and listening. 5 PSI (an empty cyl) sounds a lot different than 240 PSI (a full acetylene cyl). It is not unusual for someone to give you an empty instead of a full cylinder. Always check them as soon as you get them to your shop. Crack the valve and listen, then check the valve packing for leaks. It is also not uncommon to get cylinders that are leaking so bad that they will be empty in a few days. Some welding suppliers are very good about this while others are the pits. .

Ask about the operating temperature first.
- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Wednesday, 01/10/01 14:43:31 GMT

Times of the Month: Spielzeug, Unless your blades were made with the very rare magical moonalloy or its your time of the month then its your imagination (Again possibly meaning its your time of the month - physicaly, emotionaly. . .).
- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Wednesday, 01/10/01 14:55:15 GMT

Dissimilar Metals: Al, As OErjan said the working temperatures of the metal are too dissimilar. The stiffness of the material is also a problem. Two equaly stiff bars will make a nice even twist while to different stiffness bars will make a very uneven twist.

There IS a way to do what you want. First twist two steel bars. Then while cool cut off one bar. You may also unwrap it with a torch (heating just the bar to remove). THEN clamp one end of the aluminium bar to the steel, heat it with the torch and wrap it in the place of the bar removed. Be sure to use clamps and tongs only to handle the aluminium bar. Aluminium is a very good conductor of heat and the unheated end will be very near the temperature of the heated end. . WAY TO HOT FOR GLOVES!

Now, doing this is going to be very exciting because the coeficient of thermal expansionn of aluminium and steel are quite diferent. The assembly is going to writhe like a snake as the wrapped part cools. When finished the assembly will continue to creak and writhe when there are temperature changes. This will cause wear on the contacting surfaces aggrevating the bimetalic corrosion that occurs when dissimilar metals are used in combination. The stresses that occur may be so great that one bar may be broken by the other.
- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Wednesday, 01/10/01 15:11:24 GMT

Maybe it was last night's brilliant full moon. . .
- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Wednesday, 01/10/01 15:13:48 GMT

A couple of years ago I picked up a remaindered copy of a book which gave step-by-step instructions for building a brick forge and a traditional bellows. I loaned the book to a responsible, interested friend, who misplaced it. Can't recall the title, other than a close paraphrase to "How to Build a Brick Forge," nor the author's name. Anyone have any suggestions?
Bruce Holman  <lbruce at ipa.net> - Wednesday, 01/10/01 15:16:16 GMT

Book: Bruce, There are numerous blacksmithing books that cover those subjects in some manner but few are step by step. Check the Centaur Forge on-line catalog or call Norm Larson (1-805-735-2095). Norm knows his books and may be able to tell you the title.

The problem with this type book is that they are relatively rare and when out of print they may not be available for another 20 years, if ever. .
- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Wednesday, 01/10/01 15:47:27 GMT

tank pressure-- welding texts say it's unsafe to run bottles of either oxygen or acetylene when they get below 50 psi gauge because of the danger of a high-pressure to low-pressure cross-feed. I know, I know. Everybody does it. Just stop it! You hear?
brick forge-- The Village Blacksmith, by Aldren Watson, gives detailed, measured drawings for the hearth and the old-tyme bellows. Is that the book you're thinking of? N.B.: in one edition, Watson shows the oxide colors running backwards in tempering a chisel.
Cracked Anvil  <cracked at anvilfire.com> - Wednesday, 01/10/01 16:31:15 GMT

Not being as clued in on anvils as some people, I have questions about wrought anvils. I understand that the horn is a seperate piece that was welded onto the body. Common sence says there is that possibility of a bad weld. Is it common for a horn to turn loose for something like fullering?
Would you suggest NOT acquiring a 200 to 300 pound Peter Wright because of this? Suspecting an answer might be "get the anvil", the question pertains only to the use of the horn for heavy hammer blows.
Also, a fellow in this area has an 800 pound anvil. What were anvils this size made for?
Steve R at Hammerdown Forge
Steve R  <psrrfr at bellsouth.net> - Wednesday, 01/10/01 17:10:42 GMT

Anvil Failures: Steve, It is not uncommon for old anvils to have missing horns. How much abuse this took is unknown, however I have one and have seen others. Most are old wrought anvils. Mine appears to be an early Mousehole Forge. These were made of "scrap" that was often poorly worked into a solid billet. The horns on these were welded on as a seperate piece and this is where they fail. Although there are great claims for forge welds being equal to the base material in strength I have seen many fail.

Not all anvils had the horn added on. Most late forged wrought anvils did not. The upper body and horn were all one piece and the anvil was welded at the waist. This is typical of most narrow waist (late style) forged anvils. The type with welded horns are typicaly the early style made up to the early 1800's (about 1840).

There is also a story going around about U.S. Civil War "Sappers" breaking the horns off anvils as a way to cripple industry. DO NOT SPREAD THIS RUMOR! I know the originator of this story and he was looking for proof of his theory. So far there has been no proof other than a LOT of pre Civil War anvils with broken horns in the South. This may be a coincidence since the manufacturing method changed about that time.

Yes BUY the Peter Wright if it is in good condition.

Heavy anvils were made for heavy shops. They were common in rail road shops where heavy pieces were worked by hand. It was not uncommon to forge something under a steam hammer then do finishing of detail work on an anvil or huge weld plattens weighing tons.
- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Wednesday, 01/10/01 17:58:57 GMT

Rivits -- I have seen things held together with rivits in Anvil ring mag etc.Are they made for each piece or can they be bought. I am interested in making them just need to know where to start. Have made my own nails with my nail maker jig, They look like they are made the same way.
Barney - from - North Bay Ontario Canada...
Barney  <barney at vianet.on.ca> - Wednesday, 01/10/01 18:40:50 GMT

Dissimilar Metals:
Guru &OErjan,
Thanks for the info and advice. I may have to try Guru's suggestion just to see what happens during cooling.

Al  <agarrard at rmy.emory.edu> - Wednesday, 01/10/01 18:41:14 GMT

Hi, I asked about a spear head the other day but have changed my mind and will be attempting a bardiche. This is a large pole axe. It usually is a long heavy blade, approx 28.5-31.5 inches in length by 3-6 inches wide and 1/2 inch thick. Any body here ever try anything like this? I am going to take 1/2" x 3 1/2 inch stock and give it a go. Aftre tapering the blade points, the forging of the edge should push the blade into a gentle upswept curve...right? Here is one example of the blade I am referring to http://www.starfireswords.com/cgi-bin/starfire/ANGELIQUE?zKNBpQc6;;77
Can I split the spine and draw it out to form the part that attches to the pole or would a seperate rivited piece work better? Any thoughts folks?
Anradan  <anradanmacewan at sk.sympatico.ca> - Wednesday, 01/10/01 19:37:51 GMT

You might even get around it bu doing as guru say (wrap two steel then unwrap one) and then cold wrapping the Al. Depends on what the deformation is. size of stock...
OE - Wednesday, 01/10/01 19:45:08 GMT

The phone # for Cleveland Mica co. is 216-226-1360 They are sending me samples w/price sheet, for free! Can't beat that. Another co. in AZ quoted $39.00 for a 36"x36" amber,
+ shipping. Where do all the lamp co's get their stock? What thickness should be used in lighting fixtures?
Pete  <ravnstudio at aol.com> - Wednesday, 01/10/01 20:22:14 GMT

Anradan, a half-inch THICK berdiche isnīt a two-hand weapon, itīs a two-MAN weapon (grin).
Olle Andersson  <utgaardaolle at ebox.tninet.se> - Wednesday, 01/10/01 20:32:42 GMT

How-to: Anradan, The example you are looking at is arc welded together and then the weld ground to finish it. Historicaly the part you are looking at would be a seperate piece forge welded on. Try studying historical pieces to learn from rather than stage props. There are many books on the subject with accurate dimensioned drawings.
- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Wednesday, 01/10/01 21:00:25 GMT

Rivets: Barney, Plain round head steel rivets are available from a variety of sources. I listed the phone number for a U.S. distributor, Jay-Cee sales a few days ago.

Yes rivits are made sort of like nails. Your header needs to clamp the shank (in a vise) and possibly have a back-stop (a block to keep the rivet blank from moving down into the gripper). It takes 1-1/2 diameters of bar to make a standard round head and also works for rose head rivets.

In many pieces of architectural work the smith uses a piece of plain round stock, inserts it in the work, heats each end with a torch and forms the heads in place. This requires using a "buck" or "bucking block" on the cold end. Often this is just a large hand held hammer. In some cases it is a piece of heavy flat bar. Ocassionaly where there is no hammer clearance a bar must be used as the striking surface against the rivet and that struck with a hammer.

When commercial rivets are used they are easily reshaped to match hand riveted rose heads OR a rivet header with a half round depresion is used to create matching round head.

Commercial rivets come in a variety of head styles like bolts. Round head, filister head, flat head (countersunk). They also come in a variety of materials, steel, brass, aluminium and monel. Plain aluminium rivets are used to assemble air-craft.
- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Wednesday, 01/10/01 21:03:57 GMT

Lighting Fixture: Pete, YOU are now the manufacturer. That makes you the specifier. . . It is common commercial practice to just buy a sample of the competitor's product and take it apart. . . They even do it with full size automobiles. Its cheaper than paying for the engineering time.

My guess is as thin as is self supporting. 1/32" ?? But that would be limited by the size of the piece.

There are a bunch of mica suppliers listed in Thomas Register. If you tell them what you want it for they may tell you what they sell other manufacturers for the same purpose. Occasionaly suppliers will do the specifing for you as a service.
- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Wednesday, 01/10/01 21:29:20 GMT


Ironworker and Farriar

by Aldren A. Watson

ISBN 0-393-32057-X

Guru, will have a review posted before long.

The instructions you are looking for are in there.
Paw Paw Wilson  <pawpaw at paw-paws-forge.com> - Wednesday, 01/10/01 23:34:26 GMT


I ordered a copy for myself from Barnes and Noble this eveing. Will be in by the middle of next week, cost $15.95 USD.
Paw Paw Wilson  <pawpaw at paw-paws-forge.com> - Thursday, 01/11/01 01:09:36 GMT

Reasons why you should wear all your safety protection: or Don't make fun of those who do, make fun of those don't.

-Two blacksmiths were walking down the street, one turns to the other and says, "Sure is windy" other says, "No its thursday", other says, "Me too, lets go get something to drink".
Vulcanetta  <estrecker at hotmail.com> - Thursday, 01/11/01 02:25:09 GMT

Guru, I have a friend with a spelter statue which has a broken arm and needs fixing. I believe that spelter is zinc. Is there a welding or brazing process for zinc/spelter.?
Piero  <topcat67c at hotmail.com> - Thursday, 01/11/01 02:50:38 GMT

Hey Guru, Have you ever worked with Heflon? My uncle, a great source of info and supplies(not to mention great gettogethers) spoke of it to me once, told me that the company he works for(Mosler) was hired to make some safes out of the stuff, and told me they were only 1/2 inch thick!
Now, forgive me for being amazed, i know we do some amazing stuff with metal these days, and i know heflon plating is used on the teeth of earthmover scoops, but These people were out to protect a big investment.

my uncle says most drills cant even bite into heflon. Now, i hate to go and say something silly, but, couldnt a nice anvil be faced with heflon?
AdamSmith - Thursday, 01/11/01 14:03:30 GMT

Heflon?: Adam, Trade name materials are generaly some other material with a slight change. I don't have a clue what you are talking about as this is not a standard material designation.

Generaly super hard materials are brittle. That is the problem with over hard anvils. They chip. The standard method of breaking into a safe is to drill the door in front of the lock and then look at the position of the lock tumblers. A hard drill resistant plate is placed in front of the lock. In some cases this plate is a composite of superhard materials.

Hardfaceing rod is used to build up surfaces on earth moving equipment and rock processing drums. This material is primarily abrasion resistant and very hard. It is also brittle. Hardfacing rod is often used to repair anvils but the softest grade is used. It is not as good a material for the purpose as the original tool steel plate.

- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Thursday, 01/11/01 17:51:27 GMT

Spelter Metal: Piero, Yes, spelter is an old term for zinc. It oxidizes rapidly and is very difficult to weld.

Your best bet is to glue the part back together with epoxy glue and then paint to match the existing finish.
- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Thursday, 01/11/01 18:11:08 GMT





JACK W. MARKS  <jack_marks at lord.com > - Thursday, 01/11/01 21:22:48 GMT

Wallace & Centaur: Jack, Just look UP, you can't miss their banners. They are also listed in our advertisers directory and the site map.
- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Thursday, 01/11/01 21:50:11 GMT

I am just starting to take blacksmith lessons and asked my teacher what chemical reaction occurred to allow the steel to weld in the forge. Do you know? How does borax affect the reaction? Is there a source I can go to for more info on this?
Julie  <jbuch at softcom.net> - Thursday, 01/11/01 23:25:43 GMT

Any advice for the purchase of a belt grinder for those blacksmiths who make knives? I know that Bader is superb but what of cost?
David  <drgalloway at aol.com> - Friday, 01/12/01 00:00:05 GMT

CHEM: Julie, Any chemical reactions that occur to the steel in the forge are generaly detrimental. These include carbon and sulfur absorption, and oxidation. Oxidation is the biggest problem and varies greatly depending on the type of forge, fuel and fire conditions. Oxidation is the formation of iron oxide scale on the steel. Iron oxide is a brittle material with a high melting point. It can cause weak welds or welds that do not stick altogether.

Borax (sodium tetraborate) does two things. It is a chemicaly active solvent that disolves the scale and anything else on the surface of the steel. It also coats the steel and prevents further oxidation.

Because the melted borax is very fluid it is easily squeezed out of the weld joint. However, it helps to have properly designed joints so that the flux and any other swarf it not trapped in the weld joint. Pay attention to those scarfs. .
- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Friday, 01/12/01 00:38:54 GMT

Grinders: David, Hopefully some others will chime in with their favorites. I currently don't have one these type grinders. My last belt sander was a big industrial model with a cast iron frame and table. It took a 6" x 58" belt the best I can remember. The original motor was 2 HP but it was running on 3/4 HP. I suspect that it was at least as well built as the Bader. It was a wonderful tool useful for all kinds of work. A lot of what made it a great tool was the heavy cast iron frame. It needed that 2 HP . . .

What that grinder didn't have is the flexibility of a fifth wheel grinder with a contact wheel. But it also didn't have water cooling which is very advantageous when doing heavy grinding. There are also belt grinders that use narrow 1" belts that are handy for for all kinds of detail and curved work.

Generaly professional blade makers have at least a half dozen belt grinders. They also spend many hours every day grinding. It pays for them to buy the very best. If you don't need the very best then buy the best you can afford remembering that you may need more than one type to do the job.
- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Friday, 01/12/01 01:28:49 GMT

I just purchased a Grizzly Knife Belt Sander/Buffer Model G1015. It uses 2x72 belts adjustable up to 2x76. The price was about a fourth of what a Bader costs. It has a 1 HP motor. The belt speed is only 3600 FPM but it has worked good for me so far. It comes in two pieces and you will have to build a base for it. I'm happy for the moment. It can be seen at www.grizzly.com
Billy Templeton  <bhtempleton at cei.net> - Friday, 01/12/01 03:04:40 GMT

could you hold the noise down (small caps)? Most of us are only slightly deaf.
Mills  <mills_fam2 at netzero.net> - Friday, 01/12/01 03:19:10 GMT

Guru, I have just completed my most satisfying piece yet, it is a hand axe, with a really neat blade i cut out of 1/4 inch plate, only prob is, the only handle wood i had was poplar, can you reccomend any treatments to harden/strengthen the wood? i would appreciate any ideas, thx.
AdamSmith - Friday, 01/12/01 03:28:27 GMT

Poplar: Adam, Poplar (Tulip Poplar in the U.S) is classified as a hardwood for the furniture making industry but by no one else. Even in furniture it is covered or verneered. It is generally too soft and too weak for tool handles. Try your local hardware store for a hickory or ash axe handle.
- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Friday, 01/12/01 04:03:16 GMT

I had a machinist friend make me a copy of his home-built grinder, belt driven. Speed is adjustable by moving the belt in the pulleys, like a drill press. One side is a 2x48 belt, the other end of the shaft can be used for a wire brush or buffer. Maybe this would be a topic to go with JYH's.
John McPherson  <trollworks at hotmail.com> - Friday, 01/12/01 05:16:47 GMT

I hate computers!

guru, send me this URL again, please.

Paw Paw Wilson  <pawpaw at paw-paws-forge.com> - Friday, 01/12/01 13:23:36 GMT

Hi guru, I have a question regarding the encorporation of stones into ironwork, i have well, not stones but teeth, that i would like to fuse into a crucifix i am making. Ive had bad experience with epoxy, i mix and mix and mix and it still never totally seems to dry. Do you have any advice?
Im also having trouble doing the same with bone. if you could perhaps give me some pointers, i would appreciate it.
AdamSmith - Friday, 01/12/01 14:12:19 GMT

need to build a power hammer but not much cash to spened $300-$500 any plans or idiers would be great
regards geoff
GEOFF  <impactu18 at bigpond.com> - Friday, 01/12/01 14:40:43 GMT

Guru, I am moving to a new shop this weekend. This is an opportunity to place everything in the shop in the "perfect" location. I remember a book on Blacksmithing that had shop layouts but they were not equipped with power hammers. Understanding everyone is a little different so placement of equipment is going to differ from person to person, I never-the-less was wondering if I could get a discussion on shop layout and efficient placement of equipment. I have two power hammers (50 lb. LG, & Kinyon-style air hammer), Scotchman ironworker, Anvil, 6' X 8' layout table, Forge (on wheels), various smaller tools. Thanks, TC
Tim Cisneros  <blacksmith at theforgeworks.com> - Friday, 01/12/01 14:45:45 GMT

Just happened upon a terrific welding book, while at an AutoZone: a Haynes "Techbook," called, appropriately enough, "Welding Manual,"by Jay Storer and John H. Haynes. It is sub-titled, "basics of gas, arc, MIG, TIG, and plasma welding and cutting, the Haynes manual fr selecting and using welding equipment," and, what do you know: it delivers nothing less than that. Cost me $12 and change. This is a thorough-going, pro's-eye view of the whole deal, as if you were to take a guided tour of the top shops in your area and hear what each process does, how to do it, what equipment to get to do precisely the kinds of jobs you are planning to do. It is not a substitute for a general welding text like, for example, "Welding Principles and Applications," by Larry Jeffus and Harold V. Johnson, Delmar Publishers, Inc. because it has not got all the minute detail, specs, for example, re each and every rod, etc. But in practical terms, if you are a beginner on a tight budget looking for straightforward guidance on how to shop for equipment, or a working pro ever on the lookout for helpful tips on technique and set-up, this is a valuable book to have: clear, crisp comprehensive text, good illustrations.
Cracked Anvil  <cracked at anvilfire.com> - Friday, 01/12/01 15:09:39 GMT

Get the epoxy that looks like a syringe with two tubes.
Press plunger and you get the correct amounts of the hardener and the resin.
Ralph  <ralphd at jps.net> - Friday, 01/12/01 16:07:44 GMT

in addition to what Guru said. This is the way I understand it:
Forge welding is a physical(mechanical) process. The iron or steel will be in a semimolten state if at welding temp.
When the two pieces are forced together(hammered lightly) the surface of the pieces will for a fraction of a sec go to a molten state, fusing together, makeing one piece of metal.(all this is ideally) If when forge welding you hit too hard the flux AS well as the surface of the metal will fly out = no weld
Ralph  <ralphd at jps.net> - Friday, 01/12/01 16:14:25 GMT

Cheap Hammer: GEOFF, Look under our Power hammer Page, Catalog of Junk Yard Hammers JYH. The price depends on your ability to scrounge and what your time is worth. Build the shock absorber linkage as a last resort. It is simple but does not hit very hard.

Note that the valves for air hammers cost well over $200. Don't scrimp on anvil mass.
- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Friday, 01/12/01 16:43:47 GMT

Shop Arrangement: Tim, A lot of this is personal preference.

However, my friend Josh Greenwood likes to have his power hammers arranged close to the forge and hammers he uses in sequence to be next to each other. He has his anvil in the typical position in front of the forge and a hammer on either side of the forge about the same distance as the anvil.

IF you intend to have an employee running a hammer at the same time as you are then each should have their own forge and anvil. In this case you also need to be sure that hot scale from one machine doesn't fly into the work space of the other hammer. Otherwise OSHA scale guards are required. This is not a problem with small hammers but it is still possible to put them too close together. .

If LONG work is going to be done in the hammer (top rail) then you need to be sure to arrange the hammer so that work can be fed through the hammer.

Generaly the localtion of your stock racks and saw (or ironworker) are the most critical and should be in line with each other AND convienient to the door. Your layout/assembly table will want to be centered in the shop. Then hammers can be close together if there is only one worker but should have there own space if there are two.

Then there is the type of forge. Many gas forges spew a lot of hot air and flame out the front and need a "dead" zone in front of them. Coal forges can be worked around much closer and alow a differnt shop arangement.

It helps to draw a layout of the shop and scale templates of the equipment. Arrange the equipment and look at the spaces in between. An anvil needs a least a half circle if not a full circle of work space around it. Power hammers need a half or quarter circle and so on. .

But it never fails. As soon as you bolt down the equipment that needs bolting down you will get another piece and everything will change. . .
- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Friday, 01/12/01 17:39:10 GMT

Cracked: do you think you could get a copy of that Welding Manual for me? E-mail me for discussion on money.
Looked around for it here (I'm overseas ) close to one hour phoning to bookstores and welding supplies... it was MUCH more than 12$ when I finally found it (not counting phone..).
I'm overseas and would like it as reference (help catching the technical names in English). and perhaps get something new from it.
Thanks OErjan.
OErjan  <Pokerbacken at angelfire.com> - Friday, 01/12/01 17:39:48 GMT

how would you measure the temperature of a metal?
KRISTOFER FULLINGIM  <Ryankristofer> - Friday, 01/12/01 17:48:00 GMT

or perhaps you guru could sell it in the store?
and new edge of the anvil...
just a few of the good books you recomend.
OE  <same> - Friday, 01/12/01 17:59:25 GMT

I'm so glad its Friday, I've reserved my entire weekend for work and solitude. I'm still envisioning my next project, either a cleaver, or another axe, perhaps to make a few miscelaneous items. My question, what are some exceptionally hard or strong woods, how can they be acquired, and how well do they work(I mean to use them in art)
AdamSmith - Friday, 01/12/01 19:10:40 GMT

Temperature Measurment: Kristofer, There is a whole bunch of ways. Most methods depend on the temperature range.

Low tech. . A thermometer. . Oven thermometers with a bimetalic element are good up to 500°F (260°C)

Tempil Temperature Indicating Crayons are good to a fairly high range. However each crayon has its specific temperature. You mark the metal, when the crayon melts its a the crayon's rated temperature. I think they are available up to about 2,000°F (1093°C).

Thermocouples are a dissimilar metal union that generates a small voltage (thermalvoltaic cell). A millivolt meter is used to read the temperature directly. The meter generaly has a face marked in temperature scales. Thermocouple type devices are used in furnaces and kilns. The thermocouple itself can be attached directly to the surface of an object to return a more accurate temperature.

Hi-tech, Infrared is becoming more commonly available for temperature measurment. Portable hand held devices are used. Simply point at the hot item and read the temperature.

Lots of ways. . .
- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Friday, 01/12/01 19:12:49 GMT

Hardwoods: Adam, The answer to that question is several books worth. I already listed the best handlewoods in North America, Hickory and Ash. The same thing baseball bats were made of when they were wood. . .

Cherry, Walnut and other fine hardwoods work too.

Where do you get them? Trees. Traditionaly the best handle wood must be split out of the log, not sawn. Spliting (with a froe) assures that the handle is perfectly aligned with the grain.

Handles are split green, roughed to shape with froe, axe, drawknife or rasp, then air dried (6 months to a year). The air dried handle is then fitted and finished.

Back when I was using a lot of firewood I would look for good pieces as I split the wood. Exceptional samples were roughed out to handle size and set aside. A fence staple was set into the end and the blank hung up in the shop until needed.

Since I've run out of blanks and don't burn wood anymore I go to the hardware store and buy handles.
- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Friday, 01/12/01 19:31:25 GMT

OErjan: Haynes is on the Net at http://www.haynes.com/na2.html. They have three offices in Europe, and it seems to me that trying to get the book through one of them-- Paris, London, Upsala-- would be faster, cheaper than going through the trans-Atlantic hasssle.
Cracked Anvil  <cracked at anvilfire.com> - Saturday, 01/13/01 00:59:42 GMT

Guru, Good idea's for the shop layout. TC
Tim Cisneros  <blacksmith at theforgeworks.com> - Saturday, 01/13/01 02:59:59 GMT

OErjan: that Haynes welding book is available from Harborfreight, I just noticed in their catalog. Item 33771-1JGC, price $12.95. The catalog sez you can order off their website: harborfreight.com (Unknow if that means Europe, too, or just U.S. but it's worth a try.)
Cracked Anvil  <cracked at anvilfire.com> - Saturday, 01/13/01 03:57:40 GMT

Is there a simple method of determining if a statue is bronze?
azdoug  <dendrud at earthlink.net> - Saturday, 01/13/01 05:50:42 GMT

More Shop Layout: Tim, When I am planning on paper I generally go out in the shop and practice moves around the anvil, forge and vise. Measure the current spacing. Look at dead space or where I would rather have things. Then make a scale sketch of that important group. This space is now probably different than 150 pounds ago. . . Look at the dirt pattern on the floor. This often tells you where you have been and how often. When placing this group there is always the consideration of how long a bar will hang off at least ONE side of the vise. Since I am right handed I like extra space to the left for extra material although I work off either side of the vise. But I saw and prefer working to the right. Anvil placement is not critical to me as I keep my anvils on hollow wooden stands that can be walked around where ever I want them OR in what ever direction I want. The important thing is to have space for it. A 30" diameter circle would represent the space for most anvils.

If the shop has a crane or monorail you generaly like to place heavy toys under it. If you use a fork lift then isles become important. . Every shop varies. If you have a fork lift but the shop has low ceilings then forget about the lift. .
- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Saturday, 01/13/01 05:59:19 GMT

Epoxys are like that when they are old or cold. Get fresh epoxy ( sometimes they are dated, check before you buy).
It works to mix up a batch of epoxy, divide it up and put in the freezer till needed.
Free urban hardwood...places that import large items from the orient often discard exotic-hardwood crates. Heavy duty pallets ( for forklifts) generally have hardwood slats.
Pete F - Saturday, 01/13/01 06:57:53 GMT

Hey Tim C
That was a pretty darn good article you wrote for Anvil mag!
Pete F - Saturday, 01/13/01 06:59:04 GMT

Shop layout: Dirt pattern on floor? Thereīs supposed to be a floor underneath?
Olle Andersson  <utgaardaolle at ebox.tninet.se> - Saturday, 01/13/01 09:44:12 GMT


The best supplier in Winston-salem for our purposes was G & B Coal Co. BUT the RR trestle that they used to dump their coal from the hopper cars has been condemned and they are rapidly going out of the coal business. Dunno what we are going to do.
Paw-Paw  <pawpaw at paw-paws-forge.com> - Saturday, 01/13/01 14:18:15 GMT

I am looking for a way to make my own "browning" solution like that found on older muskets. I am attempting to reproduce some daggers, hammers and halberds and was hoping to add that finish to the pieces. I was guessing that it might be a mild acid with a oxidizer but before mixing hydrogen peroxide with drain cleaner I thought I might ask around rather than burn out my lungs or destroy somthing that I might have wanted to keep.
BILL HAYNES  <kingquest at centurytel.net> - Saturday, 01/13/01 17:44:16 GMT

Bronze sculpture: Doug, Compared to what? How big?

The surest non-destructive test is to measure the density. This is where size is critical. You need to determine both weight and volume. Like Aristotle you will need to emerse the sculpture in water and measure the displaced volume. A container big enough to emerse the sculpture is filled with water to overflowing. Then the item is placed in the water and the amount that spills out is carefully measured and converted to cubic inches OR mililiters. If the sculpture is hollow you will need to be sure it fills with water.

Then weigh the item on the most accurate scale you can find for the size of the object. The ratio of weight to volume is density in lbs/cuin or g/cm3 (1cm3 = 1ml).

Material      g/cm3   lbs/cuin  

Water         0.999973  0.0361
Aluminium     2.699     0.0975
C.Iron        7.37      0.2665
steel         7.84      0.2835
brass SAE 72  8.39      0.3032
Bronze 660    8.913     0.3220
Lead         11.35      0.410
Gold         19.32      0.6980

I have a collection of nearly 1,000 material densities if you need. There is usualy enough difference between alloys to come pretty close to identifying them.
- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Saturday, 01/13/01 17:57:35 GMT

Browning: Bill, Although acids such as nitric and sulphuric were available then they were not used for browing the best that I know.

18th century gunsmiths browned guns using a simple controlled rusting process. The item is polished, then cleaned (no oil or salt from fingerprings) and then placed in a "damp box" overnight or for several days. The object is removed and "carded" (the loose rust scraped off with a piece of softwood - pine). Then the object is cleaned (often by boiling in fresh water) and placed in the damp box again. This is repeated over and over until the rust is a dense even finish. When finished the item is cleaned and oiled.

This is the only true iron or steel "patina" and is what you see on old well cared for tools.

I believe the rust brown can be converted to a plum brown by boiling in a dilute caustic solution. . . I can't remember what.

A "damp box" is a simple container (wood) that has damp rags in the bottom to make a high humidity atmosphere. Some modern smiths use a pan with hydrogen peroxide to accelerate the process. Parts much be carefully supportd to avoid gaps or stains in the finish. Gun barrels are typicaly supported by wooden plugs in the ends of the barrel and hung on brackets in the damp box.

A modern replacement for the wood damp box could be an old plastic cooler. Nylon would make good nonstaining supports. Blades could be supported by their tangs.
- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Saturday, 01/13/01 17:59:26 GMT

Bill: I'm not making this up, nor am I attempting humor, but the old mountain way to brown gun parts is to clean it well, urinate on it (uniformly, there's the trick) and put it somewhere damp and forget about it for a while. The damp box is more controlled, but you can use urine in that too if you want a faster acidic reaction and don't mind the smell...

Foxfire 5 has good information on older metal finishing techniques, including this one, if you want a reference.
Alan L  <longmire at premiernet.netNOSPAM> - Saturday, 01/13/01 20:19:19 GMT

Oh, yes, forgot to mention: If you boil a browned steel or iron object, it will turn BLUE. That's how you get an old-fashioned rust blue.
Alan L  <see above> - Saturday, 01/13/01 20:20:48 GMT

THANKS CRACKED!! I couldn't find it so... should have thought about the likelihood of them having a website or outfit in Sweden.
And you switched the values of the densities.
It should read:

OE, I fixed my chart above so it wasn't reproduced over and over

and what did Aristotle do that involved Arcimedes principle?
dang. . . - guru
I find it easier (and more accurate to fill the container to less than full and calculate (measure and use geometry)the rise in level. the spill can vary too much.
If there is even a trace of oil/detergent on the vessel /object the bulge might be high before and low or non-existent after, just my two.

OErjan  <Pokerbacken at anvilfire.com> - Saturday, 01/13/01 20:50:03 GMT

could you check the pub guru. it is acting up. hard to refresh, even worse to enter...
and if you like remove my last posting it vas a mistake when i tried to type this (hit ctrl+v instead of ctrl+N)
OE  <same> - Saturday, 01/13/01 20:57:55 GMT

Errors: OErjan, check the e-mail address you used earlier. . .

I fixed my chart then removed the copies you posted. Yep, formating in HTML is a pain. There is three sets of code surrounding that little list to make it appear right in both IE and Netscape. That one I did off-line. This forum strips embedded HTML for everyone except for me. And I spend a lot of time fixing MY mistakes. . .

Archimedies, Aristotle. . Greeks with "A" names. . Yeah *I* botched THAT one! It IS amazing that there is still no better way to check density than one developed in 500 BC (I think that's the aprox date). Modern scales that do the task still emerse the part in water. These return specific gravity (ratio to water) but for the most part it is interchangable with density. . .

We have found that the best way to measure a volume of water is to weight it. The surface tension (that bulge you speak of) and other factors make it difficult to measure volume accurately. Weight is very acurate.
- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Sunday, 01/14/01 08:08:52 GMT

Old Blueing: Alan, THANKS! I KNEW there was a way to convert the old browning to a darker blue black.

Accelerated browning works. You can use the bleach method. . . however, the slower the finer the finish. If the finish is not all that great to start with then speeding things up won't hurt much. It's not acidity in urine that accelerates the corrosion, its the potassium salts. Potassium nitrate can be used but plain table salt does the same and doesn't stink or have possible health risks. . However, nitrates MAY produce a slightly different color.
- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Sunday, 01/14/01 08:14:50 GMT

OH, sorry Guru:-}.
Second or third time it has happened. Somehow I switch them (anvilfire and angelfire) when posting here.
An upgrade for my bio-spellchecker (brain) needed. ;-)
Should have been made for 29+ years, always something gets in the way, no technology for it is one major factor.
lots stuff available to upgrade (schools, books...) but all are limited in some/several ways.
Oh well. Sorry once again Guru.
OErjan  <pokerbacken at angelfire.com> - Sunday, 01/14/01 14:06:19 GMT

Bleach browning:

Several modern muzzleloading gunmakers use this method to "antique" the iron and steel parts, since it produces a good chocolate brown and a uniform pitted surface. The formula is: one CUP of bleach such as clorox (tm) to every GALLON of water, clean spring water or distilled water is best. Boil the part in this solution until it looks as pitted as you want it to, then rinse it well in clean running water, dry thoroughly, and oil to stop the rusting. If you use the bleach method, it will not turn blue if you boil it afterwards, presumably something to do with the various oxides and chlorides residual on the surface. Be careful, you can easily pit right through thin parts, and if you do this to firearms, NEVER do it to the springs. And plug the barrel very well indeed, or the bore will get "antiqued" too! If you do this to wrought iron (the metal), it will make the "grain" stand out.
Alan L  <longmire at premiernet.net> - Sunday, 01/14/01 15:28:19 GMT

Boiling Hollow Cylinders:
Bear in mind that when you put corks in the ends of a hollow cylinder and then heat this creates an air gun with the plug as your projectile! Imagine what will occur when the barrel 'uncorks' while it is immersed in a pan of hot blueing or bleach or what have you on the wifes stove. Best have a cover story handy.

Seriously, fill the barrel with some medium that displaces air and won't expand. Talcum powder maybe? Sand is fine in pipes but not my 1st choice in a precision tube such as rifle barrels or lab glass.

A small step but could be as important as the goggles or the apron and gloves you are wearing while you do this.
Mills  <mills_fam2 at netzero.net> - Sunday, 01/14/01 17:19:49 GMT

Mills: Sound theory, but it hasn't happened to any of the makers I know. They all use hardwood dowels driven into the bore. The wood is sufficiently permeable that the air escapes but the liquid doesn't enter. Of course, they also do this outside, usually, since a 44 inch long barrel won't fit on the stove;)!
Alan L  <see above> - Sunday, 01/14/01 19:20:34 GMT

To plug a rifle or pistol barrel for browning (muzzle loader), I have always used a screw thru a rubber plug, something like the plugs for fishing boats. never had one pop yet.
jerry  <birdlegs at keynet.net> - Sunday, 01/14/01 21:18:26 GMT

OK, haven't tried those, only corks. A fellow in Brownells 'Gunsmith Kinks' also had a similar problem. Those would be superior methods to my approach, and it is well to hear these cautions BEFORE 'popping the cork'. Cork also degrades in some solutions and really boogers things up.
Mills  <SAA> - Sunday, 01/14/01 22:37:37 GMT

I'm new to blacksmithing and am having some major trouble getting enough heat to work steel. Any suggestions would be appreciated. I'm currently using charcol with quite a bit of air movement.
Marc  <tinker.gnome at home.com> - Sunday, 01/14/01 22:44:07 GMT

I am looking for a "die" type style coil rig for making chain armor. Can anyone help me???
Ben  <primvs at midsouth.rr.com> - Sunday, 01/14/01 23:00:47 GMT

I've been trying to figure an easy way of making some wheels or rollers for the bottom of my Pexto 4ft shear. I would like to be able to roll it out when I need to shear long pcs and then back against a wall to save shop space. Would be nice to have a design where the wheels raise up so the shear sits right on the floor when in use. Someone must have come up with a clever way of doing this.
azdoug  <dendrud at earthlink.net> - Sunday, 01/14/01 23:53:56 GMT


Try four of the trailer jacks that weld to the legs. Raised up the shear would sit on the floor, lowered down it would roll around.
Paw Paw Wilson  <pawpaw at paw-paws-forge.com> - Monday, 01/15/01 00:23:43 GMT

my name is talis and im just getting started and want to make knives what type of metal is best to use
talis  <moparguy at sk.sympatic.ca> - Monday, 01/15/01 02:37:32 GMT

My name is Sache and I'm helping my little brother on his craftsman report on he needs to know "What are the steps to make iron tools?". I hope someone can help him on this question. We would appreicate it so much.
Thank you

Sache and Tylor Calhoun
Sache  <Spoon_Jupiter at hotmail.com> - Monday, 01/15/01 03:22:11 GMT

I need to research Pewter touchmarks. The name is "Pilgrim" It bears a letter in a circle and another circle with a crown in it. and there are numbers. My mother passed away and left several of these pieces. Should I take care of them or not?
Jesse  <deputydog54 at earthlink.net> - Monday, 01/15/01 03:59:47 GMT

Knife Steel Talis, As soon you study ANY reference on blacksmithing or knife making you will learn what material to use. Start with learning how-to. There is no simple answer to the "best" metal. The reasons will come with study.
- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Monday, 01/15/01 05:28:45 GMT

Steps to Make Iron Tools: Sache, That question needs to be defined better. Iron or Steel? What era? By hand or in a factory? Type of tool?

Basicaly a blacksmith would:

1. Obtain a piece of tool steel
2. Heat it about 2,000°F
3. Hammer it to shape. Repeat 2 and 3 as necessary.
4. Heat the metal to a low red and quench in oil or water to harden the steel.
5. Reheat the steel to somewhere between 350°F and 600°F to "temper" the steel. This reduces the hardness a little and brittleness a lot.
6. Grind or sharpen the edge if an edge tool. Grind or polish the face if a tool like a hammer.
7. A handle fitted if a handled tool.

If the era is very early the tool may be made of wrought iron and not hardenable. Some tools like tongs are made of soft metal and not hardened. Later the tool may have had a tool steel edge welded to the wrought iron (about 1AD up). Modern tools (since about the mid 1800's) have been made of one piece of steel.
- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Monday, 01/15/01 05:43:13 GMT

Boiling gun barrels
I was thinking last night about how much pressure would build up if you boiled a gun barrel. For a given volume, absolute pressure is proportional to absolute temperature. Freezing is 273 Kelvin; boiling is 373. If you started at room temp., you'd have an increase of around 30%.
The air in the barrel starts out at just under 15 psi (atmospheric pressure). A 30% increase would be less than 5psi (above atmospheric). The end-area of .50 cal barrel is less than 1/4 sq. in., so you'd have a force against the plug of about 1 pound.

If you were still worried, maybe you could use one of those laboratory stoppers that accepts a piece of tubing and vent the barrel to the outside.
Mike B  <mbriskin at erolsnospam.com> - Monday, 01/15/01 11:13:37 GMT

Degraded Uranium:

The following question is for technical curiosity. It is not meant to get into the politics or morality of military action, but more to resolve some of the contradictions that have occurred to me from the media coverage. I figured that Jock, with his work in the nuclear industry, might have some immediate insight and information.

There have been several statements in the media about the degraded uranium (d.u.) armor-piercing shells that do not sound right to me. They talk about the projectiles being "coated" with d.u. or "hardened" with d.u. Now, as I remember, degraded uranium was used because it was denser than lead. I even remember in an old textbook (which may be inaccurate by now) that lead was what uranium eventually became as it lost all of its radiation and the atomic structure stabilized. Back in the '70s or early '80s one of the long-distance competition sailors used d.u. for ballast to reduce frontal and wetted area in his keel. That relatively benign use was certainly controversial at the time.

The military likes it because force equals mass multiplied by acceleration. A smaller, denser projectile would have less drag through the atmosphere and more impact at the delivery end. The fact that this very dense material happens to be radioactive is an unfortunate handicap, requiring special handling and greater expense. Still, the extra impact seems to justify, at least to those most intimately involved, the extra trouble, expense and potential hazards. There are a number of other ways to defeat armor: shaped charges, squishy blobs of explosives to spall off the inside surfaces, hardened tungsten penetrators; the question here is does the d.u. round rely just on mass, or is it also very hard and formed as an external penetrating shell?

As I said above, this is not meant to start any arguments, but I always think it best that when people discuss something as critical as armaments that they know what they are talking about. Call this a reality check.

Visit your National Parks: www.nps.gov

Come row with us: www.wam.umd.edu/~eowyn/Longship/

Bruce Blackistone  <asylum at us.HSAnet.net> - Monday, 01/15/01 15:58:55 GMT


As I understand it, (and I may very well be out of date!) DU is used only because of the mass/velocity equation.
It will penetrate a much thicker layer of armor, including the sandwich stuff, than an equally sized steel projectile.

Personally, I haven't yet seen any reason why a tank shell can't be designed that would utilize the same shaped charge technology used by the LAW. (Light Anti-tank Weapon)

I've got a buddy, (fellow VietVet) who was a tanker, let me run this by him, and see what he says.
Paw Paw Wilson  <pawpaw at paw-paws-forge.com> - Monday, 01/15/01 16:13:54 GMT


Can't run it by Tom till he contacts me. His address is one I haven't recovered yet.
Paw Paw Wilson  <pawpaw at paw-paws-forge.com> - Monday, 01/15/01 16:16:28 GMT

I interested in a good used hammer. Iam making demascus and I am wodering what would work well. I am also interested in price and availability.
Kirk Washburn  <farrier at cannon.net> - Monday, 01/15/01 16:26:00 GMT

Depleted Uranium: Bruce, you are sort of right. The uranium is first VERY dense so it makes a good bullet. But it is also very soft so it is formed around a very hard tungten carbide penetrator. Take the hardness of the carbide and the density of the uranium (thus a smaller diameter for the given mass) and you have a very nasty bullet. But it gets BETTER!

Uranium is pyrophoric (like magnesium). It burns with great vigor in free air! After penetrating the armor plate it is very hot from the expended energy so it bursts into flames. NOW you have a flaming ball of heavy metal bouncing around inside your armoured vehical that is full of fuel and amunition. . . Death is certain. It is the closest version of a Hollywood scene were a bullet hits a vehical and it explodes into the flames. . (without a special effects person and extra explosives).

Now, the biggest misconception from the Gulf war was the "Uranium armor" that the news folk often commented on. More idiots! The armor on modern tanks is thick heavy layers of fiberglass and graphite composites (reinforced plastic). It is designed to STOP uranium tiped bullets and other armor piercing weapons by slowing them down.

Ask yourself, WHY would anyone make armor out of a pyrophoric metal???? NOT a good idea. Remember when you listen to the NEWS, these folks are hired because they have a pretty face and they can read a script. They are actors. Not because the know anything! One of the major news anchors was on the Jay Leno show the other night explaining how if he were in a "survivor" situation like the movie he could start a fire with the ice skates that washed up in the movie using their polished stainless steel surface and sunlight. Shiney YES, like concentrating NO. . . He figured if it hurt your eys to look at it then it could start a fire. . . IDIOTS!

Twice I've seen television NEWS people comment on PI being a BIG number when confronted with the common classroom border poster going to a hundred or more decimal places. . Yep, 3.14158. . . is a BIG number if you can only count to TWO!

The biggest automotive news story in the 1970's was the recall of Firestone 500 steel belted tires. Hundreds of acidents with Ford vehicals were blammed on the tires. . . How often have you heard this bit of news relative to the current recall?? There was ONE minor mention in an interview with a Firestone employee. YES, that is the BIG news. THAT debacle is what bankrupted Firestone and let Bridgestone buy them. . . That is the important part of the story. That it happened before with the SAME manufacturers.
- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Monday, 01/15/01 16:53:48 GMT

Power Hammers: Kirk, New or used? Large or small? We have 'em here! To be fair to ALL our advertisers I'll refer you to our list of manufacturers on our Power hammer Page.

Ah, you said, "used", check with Bruce Wallace. He has more good used hammers than ANYONE!
- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Monday, 01/15/01 17:07:55 GMT

I realize that this post is a bit behind, but it goes along with the "name the parts of the leg vise" discussion.
You named a part "gudgeon" and several post were made on this. For those that have the book "Practical Blacksmithing"
compiled and edited by MT Richardson (The origal classic in one volume) I refer you to page 255 where there is a section on mounting grinding stones. Page 256 the first sentence has
the word gudgeon (the American usage?). With this I hopefully put my side of the discussion to rest.
Steve at Hammerdown Forge  <psrrfr at bellsouth.net> - Monday, 01/15/01 18:59:07 GMT

Some tank ammunition does have a shaped charge warhead. But a shaped charge creates a shaped "vortex" (incorrect word, very similar to a plasma cutter) of hot gasses that can punch through armor. The shape of the explosive gasses has to be of a specific shape, and will not penetrate if shape is disrupted. All of the major powers have developed active armor which is a bolt on array of small explosive charges that detonate when they detect an explosive on their surface. This reactive armor also has some anti-personnel effect to people on the outside of the armored vehicle. So most militaries have both types of munitions so that any threat can dealt with.

tslatton  <slattont at yahoo.com> - Monday, 01/15/01 20:04:39 GMT


As a retired llB6PS, I'm familiar with active armor, but I've never seen a LAW hit the side of a tank (even with active armor) and fail to penetrate. Now hitting the glacis is another story entirely, of course. By the same token, if you can get above the vehicle and hit the hatch..... That's a third story all by itself.
Paw Paw Wilson  <pawpaw at paw-paws-forge.com> - Monday, 01/15/01 22:25:09 GMT

I am looking for a supplier of copper, iron and steel finials to place on top of arbors, etc. Please advise.
Terry  <hmlfv at cs.com> - Monday, 01/15/01 23:07:35 GMT

Hey, my name is Jon, i am 15 years old and interested in blacksmithing, i tried to build a forge from brick but my dad said it would explode because of the type of brick, where can i get fire brick and about how much does it run?
Jon  <Wolfman406 at aol.com> - Monday, 01/15/01 23:42:43 GMT

Finials: Terry, Try King Supply www.kingsupplyco.com
- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Tuesday, 01/16/01 01:26:02 GMT

Brick: Jon, answered by mail.
- guru  <guru at anvilfire.com> - Tuesday, 01/16/01 01:27:37 GMT

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